There's no good reason an elf raised outside of a sylvan forest should be precluded from having Elf Weapon Training. They could be from the elven cities of Evereska or Silverymoon. Even living in a human-dominated region, they could pride themselves on maintaining their cultural heritage. I have a spaghetti sauce recipe on an index card from my late grandmother that dates back to before her mother emigrated from Italy as a child. Anecdotal, sure, but it's real. And I'm not the only example. Most cities have boroughs and neighborhoods where you'll see that. It's like saying you can't have a temple to an elven god in Waterdeep. Which would be like saying you can't have a Jewish temple outside of Israel. Sheer poppycock.
The PHB, rather obviously, leans heavily into these fantasy archetypes and monocultures. (The new rules from the DDAL season 10 document say so upfront.) And there's nothing wrong with having that. We have been running perfectly serviceable games with them for years. I'm honestly glad WotC is coming out with these optional rules. I'm even more hopeful they'll become free here since they'll be free in DDAL.
But...just don't act like this, okay? Every time I see a post by you, it's dripping with venom.
I think It is a choice, so you can.
also yes, you are being very toxic Vince.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
Proficiencies are the first thing that should've been allowed to flex to fit character concept. An elf who wasn't raised in a sylvan forest has no heckin' business carrying Elf Weapon Training. Frankly, most of those sorts of things should be culled from the game completely, and I'm betting they will in any prospective 5.5/6e's in the future. Cultural junk being baked into the biological stat block for a species is a relic of editions past and rightly needs to be taken out. My only real beef with this rule, and it's a minor beef at best, is that species with cultural baggage baked into their stat blocks get a hefty noncombat edge over species that don't. Elf/Dwarf Weapon Training is worth four separate tool proficiencies, which is a bit bonko. Hopefully Tasha's has some edge case fixes for stuff like that. Frankly I'm not even really worried about it, given how rarely anybody gives a single fat donkey doo for tool proficiencies, but ehh. If it happens, it happens.
Yeah right. I remember someone talking about these being optional rules, when presto, they are not. And BTW, a Mountain Dwarf that grew up living with hobbits, or garden trolls, or humans, would not only lose all the species specific features, but also a +2 on two separate attributes, since he was not living in a tough environment. He would get the standard +2 and +1, at best. The best option, and it is not an option at all, is to ignore completely anything that comes of this Nov 17th book.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
More options should be fine, and the options include to not include the new options in your campaign.
Years ago, I saw a campaign where the restrictions were Humans only and no 👋🏻👋🏻wha-tah! monks. (Other origins and Shaolin type stuff wasn't part of the campaign setting.)
I keep seeing things that suggest a sentiment of, "If I don't want it in my campaign, you shouldn't have it in yours."
From what I've seen, 5e is designed to be more inclusive than ever before. There are a lot of different people to include, each with their own preferences, and those preferences won't necessarily overlap a lot of the time... and 5e, to my knowledge, allows separation of those overlaps if groups desire it for themselves but make no provisions to impose it upon other groups.
Is that so wrong?
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
More options should be fine, and the options include to not include the new options in your campaign.
Years ago, I saw a campaign where the restrictions were Humans only and no 👋🏻👋🏻wha-tah! monks. (Other origins and Shaolin type stuff wasn't part of the campaign setting.)
I keep seeing things that suggest a sentiment of, "If I don't want it in my campaign, you shouldn't have it in yours."
From what I've seen, 5e is designed to be more inclusive than ever before. There are a lot of different people to include, each with their own preferences, and those preferences won't necessarily overlap a lot of the time... and 5e, to my knowledge, allows separation of those overlaps if groups desire it for themselves but make no provisions to impose it upon other groups.
Is that so wrong?
Exactly. If your elf trains in elven weapons then they can keep elf weapon training. If they don’t, they can change it. THEY’RE ALL OPTIONAL RULES. They’re meant to expand options.
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Please check out my homebrew and give me feedback!
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
Telling someone they lack imagination for daring to suggest an elf backstory that doesn’t involve the apparently genetically required longsword proficiency is pretty rich. Just because the story is there doesn’t mean everyone should be forced to play it.
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
I think that you can just as easily imagine an elf that decided to train with a different set of weapons. If your elf is part of a brutal city gang, they aren't likely going to learn how to use traditional weapons like a longsword or bow.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
That doesn't make sense. Does that mean all long-living races should have more proficiencies, because they have more time to learn them?
It's optional, so if you don't like it, don't use it
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
I think you're being oversensitive. If you disagree with Yurei's approach, that's fine. But please refrain from saying she lacks imagination because she disagrees with you.
Proficiencies are the first thing that should've been allowed to flex to fit character concept. An elf who wasn't raised in a sylvan forest has no heckin' business carrying Elf Weapon Training. Frankly, most of those sorts of things should be culled from the game completely, and I'm betting they will in any prospective 5.5/6e's in the future. Cultural junk being baked into the biological stat block for a species is a relic of editions past and rightly needs to be taken out. My only real beef with this rule, and it's a minor beef at best, is that species with cultural baggage baked into their stat blocks get a hefty noncombat edge over species that don't. Elf/Dwarf Weapon Training is worth four separate tool proficiencies, which is a bit bonko. Hopefully Tasha's has some edge case fixes for stuff like that. Frankly I'm not even really worried about it, given how rarely anybody gives a single fat donkey doo for tool proficiencies, but ehh. If it happens, it happens.
Yeah right. I remember someone talking about these being optional rules, when presto, they are not. And BTW, a Mountain Dwarf that grew up living with hobbits, or garden trolls, or humans, would not only lose all the species specific features, but also a +2 on two separate attributes, since he was not living in a tough environment. He would get the standard +2 and +1, at best. The best option, and it is not an option at all, is to ignore completely anything that comes of this Nov 17th book.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
They are not optional, from the DM's perspective. It explicitly states that all DM's will follow the new rules. The players can choose to opt out. The DM has zero recourse if players decide to go with this madness. And as for "the best option, and it is not an option at all.", I am referring to my table. As a DM, deciding this will not be at my table, no matter how players whine.
These changes make the game now 6e. It is inevitable a new PHB will be published with these fundamental changes to how a char is created. And anything that so fundamentally changes a game is a new edition. XTGE expanded classes and subclasses, so could be called 5.1. This, alters the game in a massive way. So then, when I say "nope", at my table, my RAW table becomes a Homebrew table, or one playing 5th edition still, while you are playing 6e.
I don't think I'm being oversensitive. Nothing Yurei says has any impact on me, whatsoever. I'm simply commenting on a pattern of behavior I've seen here and elsewhere. Yurei, in my experience, is too quick to make up her mind and does not see the possibilities others put forward. That said, she may simply be too quick with her fingers across the keyboard. She's not wholly intractable. If she was, I'd have put her on "Ignore" and written her off.
I don't think I'm being oversensitive. Nothing Yurei says has any impact on me, whatsoever. I'm simply commenting on a pattern of behavior I've seen here and elsewhere. Yurei, in my experience, is too quick to make up her mind and does not see the possibilities others put forward. That said, she may simply be too quick with her fingers across the keyboard. She's not wholly intractable. If she was, I'd have put her on "Ignore" and written her off.
Well, you can think that in your mind, don't go around insulting people
I don't think I'm being oversensitive. Nothing Yurei says has any impact on me, whatsoever. I'm simply commenting on a pattern of behavior I've seen here and elsewhere. Yurei, in my experience, is too quick to make up her mind and does not see the possibilities others put forward. That said, she may simply be too quick with her fingers across the keyboard. She's not wholly intractable. If she was, I'd have put her on "Ignore" and written her off.
Idunno man, you’re the one trying to impose your own background ideas on other people. I’d say it’s you who’s not seeing the possibilities.
Proficiencies are the first thing that should've been allowed to flex to fit character concept. An elf who wasn't raised in a sylvan forest has no heckin' business carrying Elf Weapon Training. Frankly, most of those sorts of things should be culled from the game completely, and I'm betting they will in any prospective 5.5/6e's in the future. Cultural junk being baked into the biological stat block for a species is a relic of editions past and rightly needs to be taken out. My only real beef with this rule, and it's a minor beef at best, is that species with cultural baggage baked into their stat blocks get a hefty noncombat edge over species that don't. Elf/Dwarf Weapon Training is worth four separate tool proficiencies, which is a bit bonko. Hopefully Tasha's has some edge case fixes for stuff like that. Frankly I'm not even really worried about it, given how rarely anybody gives a single fat donkey doo for tool proficiencies, but ehh. If it happens, it happens.
Yeah right. I remember someone talking about these being optional rules, when presto, they are not. And BTW, a Mountain Dwarf that grew up living with hobbits, or garden trolls, or humans, would not only lose all the species specific features, but also a +2 on two separate attributes, since he was not living in a tough environment. He would get the standard +2 and +1, at best. The best option, and it is not an option at all, is to ignore completely anything that comes of this Nov 17th book.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
They are not optional, from the DM's perspective. It explicitly states that all DM's will follow the new rules. The players can choose to opt out. The DM has zero recourse if players decide to go with this madness. And as for "the best option, and it is not an option at all.", I am referring to my table. As a DM, deciding this will not be at my table, no matter how players whine.
These changes make the game now 6e. It is inevitable a new PHB will be published with these fundamental changes to how a char is created. And anything that so fundamentally changes a game is a new edition. XTGE expanded classes and subclasses, so could be called 5.1. This, alters the game in a massive way. So then, when I say "nope", at my table, my RAW table becomes a Homebrew table, or one playing 5th edition still, while you are playing 6e.
Sure, like I said, it's optional. Don't let it at your table if you think the features are "madness"
Also I am a DM, and from what I see is if you don't allow it players don't do it. Unless the players are unwilling.
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
Heh. And now I feel less bad. Thanks for that.
ALL RIGHTY.
Could I invent a reason for any given elf to possess EWT? Sure. Did I say in the post that figuring out which tools one gets and why is equally problematic for some characters? Absolutely. Do Dwarf/Elf Weapon Training cause problems in this new system? Yes, for a given definition of 'problems'.
I'd like to know, however, how a desire for more freedom and flexibility in character generation equates to a lack of imagination. I'd argue the precise opposite - any jackass can play the Galactic Standard D&D Archetropes that have existed for 50+ years at this point, those characters have been done to death and so far beyond that they've worn grooves in the universe. I could train my cat to play the Mysterious Elven Ranger, woods-wise and fleet, who stands apart from the crude cultures of humanity as a silent, imposing guardian of the Old Ways. Everybody knows that story. There's not really any reason to revisit it anymore.
The elven street tramp who grew up bereft of their "Superior" culture, given no time to spend two centuries growing up and none of the inbred grace and cradle training of the sylvan enclaves, forced to adapt to life within the worst slums of a massive human-dominated city like Waterdeep, Emon, Rexxentrum or Sharn? The kid for whom the haughty, oh-so-grand Old Culture of the elves is both a hated curse and a bitter dream of riches and leisure they'll never have? That's a story. What does that do to an elven mind? How does their dream trance, where they see visions of their past lives, impact them? How much more maddening is that loss of culture to someone who can see clear as a bell in their not-sleep what they've lost? How does that affect them? How twisted is this mind, especially now that it's (presumably) found a way to claw itself out of the streets and come into the immense power and prestige of an Adventurer? Does this person - still a child by elven standards - hate their own kind more fiercely than anyone else could? And how do other elves feel about what, to them, is a deranged child being in possession of all the power and resources of an Adventurer?
That's just one example. I could give you a dozen others: the dwarven bohemian who seeks to emulate the famed elven artists who inspired him in his youth, the tiefling nobleman who takes pride in his fiendish heritage and the promise of power in his blood, the kenku scribe raised by scholars and trained to use her mimicry and superb memory to assist them in their duties, the wandering hobgoblin sage and philosopher who's achieved an epiphanic realization about his people's adoration of war...playing around the tired-ass Galactic Standard Tropes are where the real stories are. At least for me and a lot of folks like me.
Flip a few levers, toggle a switch or two. Change the base assumptions, then follow the new logic to its end and see what you arrive at. That's where a lot of us find our fun. Vince, BigLizard, and several others prefer to play classic, traditionalist games where everyone stays in their lanes and colors inside their lines, recreating the Old Stories time and again. That's fine. if that's where they find their fun, they're welcome to it. But I would quit this game inside a month if all I was ever allowed to do was play the same-ass tired old worn-out overdone character that fifty years of nerds before me have already put their stank on. Vince and company can have those characters. I want mine.
And now Tasha's is giving me more levers to pull and switches to toggle than ever before, so hey! Win for everybody!
Proficiencies are the first thing that should've been allowed to flex to fit character concept. An elf who wasn't raised in a sylvan forest has no heckin' business carrying Elf Weapon Training. Frankly, most of those sorts of things should be culled from the game completely, and I'm betting they will in any prospective 5.5/6e's in the future. Cultural junk being baked into the biological stat block for a species is a relic of editions past and rightly needs to be taken out. My only real beef with this rule, and it's a minor beef at best, is that species with cultural baggage baked into their stat blocks get a hefty noncombat edge over species that don't. Elf/Dwarf Weapon Training is worth four separate tool proficiencies, which is a bit bonko. Hopefully Tasha's has some edge case fixes for stuff like that. Frankly I'm not even really worried about it, given how rarely anybody gives a single fat donkey doo for tool proficiencies, but ehh. If it happens, it happens.
Yeah right. I remember someone talking about these being optional rules, when presto, they are not. And BTW, a Mountain Dwarf that grew up living with hobbits, or garden trolls, or humans, would not only lose all the species specific features, but also a +2 on two separate attributes, since he was not living in a tough environment. He would get the standard +2 and +1, at best. The best option, and it is not an option at all, is to ignore completely anything that comes of this Nov 17th book.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
They are not optional, from the DM's perspective. It explicitly states that all DM's will follow the new rules. The players can choose to opt out. The DM has zero recourse if players decide to go with this madness. And as for "the best option, and it is not an option at all.", I am referring to my table. As a DM, deciding this will not be at my table, no matter how players whine.
These changes make the game now 6e. It is inevitable a new PHB will be published with these fundamental changes to how a char is created. And anything that so fundamentally changes a game is a new edition. XTGE expanded classes and subclasses, so could be called 5.1. This, alters the game in a massive way. So then, when I say "nope", at my table, my RAW table becomes a Homebrew table, or one playing 5th edition still, while you are playing 6e.
I don't think that it is inevitable a new PHB will be published. The only things this document does is allow you to move around proficiency and change around 3 points in ability scores. No where, in any official Wizards release does it state that this is the start of Sixth Edition. Anyways, if this was the only rule 6e changed, I'd be pretty disappointed.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
It may surprise some people to learn that Yurei has opinions. Yurei also has a way of expressing these opinions quite strongly; sometimes, she does so in such a way that replicates pointing a loaded shotgun straight at her foot. However, they are still her opinions, and she is entitled to them, just as other people are equally entitled to have their own opinions and disagree with her. I know I have disagreed with her on occasion, sometimes quite vehemently. However, that is not cause for me to go around saying she lacks imagination because we have a disagreement, and it would be wholly inappropriate for me to do so.
Proficiencies are the first thing that should've been allowed to flex to fit character concept. An elf who wasn't raised in a sylvan forest has no heckin' business carrying Elf Weapon Training. Frankly, most of those sorts of things should be culled from the game completely, and I'm betting they will in any prospective 5.5/6e's in the future. Cultural junk being baked into the biological stat block for a species is a relic of editions past and rightly needs to be taken out. My only real beef with this rule, and it's a minor beef at best, is that species with cultural baggage baked into their stat blocks get a hefty noncombat edge over species that don't. Elf/Dwarf Weapon Training is worth four separate tool proficiencies, which is a bit bonko. Hopefully Tasha's has some edge case fixes for stuff like that. Frankly I'm not even really worried about it, given how rarely anybody gives a single fat donkey doo for tool proficiencies, but ehh. If it happens, it happens.
Yeah right. I remember someone talking about these being optional rules, when presto, they are not. And BTW, a Mountain Dwarf that grew up living with hobbits, or garden trolls, or humans, would not only lose all the species specific features, but also a +2 on two separate attributes, since he was not living in a tough environment. He would get the standard +2 and +1, at best. The best option, and it is not an option at all, is to ignore completely anything that comes of this Nov 17th book.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
They are not optional, from the DM's perspective. It explicitly states that all DM's will follow the new rules. The players can choose to opt out. The DM has zero recourse if players decide to go with this madness. And as for "the best option, and it is not an option at all.", I am referring to my table. As a DM, deciding this will not be at my table, no matter how players whine.
These changes make the game now 6e. It is inevitable a new PHB will be published with these fundamental changes to how a char is created. And anything that so fundamentally changes a game is a new edition. XTGE expanded classes and subclasses, so could be called 5.1. This, alters the game in a massive way. So then, when I say "nope", at my table, my RAW table becomes a Homebrew table, or one playing 5th edition still, while you are playing 6e.
All we have right now is the DDAL player's document. Anyone who serves as a DM for DDAL has to abide by the official rules and rulings handed down by WotC. There's no wiggle room, so if you choose to run games for that season then you follow those prescribed rules. And nobody forces anyone to do it, so they're agreeing to the new rules upfront. Did you even notice that SCAG wasn't legal this season?
Wait to complain about how optional it is once Tasha's comes out. Which is silly because, at any and all home games, you decide which books are legal. You can make people roll 3d6 in order, if you want, and it's okay. Heck, if you want to ban counterspell, you can. You're complaining about something without understanding what's at stake (i.e. nothing).
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I think It is a choice, so you can.
also yes, you are being very toxic Vince.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Obviously an elf is not precluded from retaining EWT if they've lived in a way where having that training makes sense. But take the case of an elven street urchin warlock - a character who accepted a gift of power in return for service in order to get out of the literal gutter, despite their 'prestigious' species. Where would that character have learned elegant elvish combat techniques? What they'd replace EWT with, I do not know, but now they have the option to do it if they have an idea.
I didn't know I was being particularly venomous? Sorry? I mean, Vince brings out the nasty in me but I've been putting some extra effort into not letting that leech into my posts. I can get spicy, but half the time people like that and enjoy the sauce rather than getting upset. My bad, I suppose.
Please do not contact or message me.
I wonder if being so toxic all the time is healthy but I digress. They are optional. If it says it in the document if you had bothered to read it. “If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign“. There is nothing in that sentence that says you have to. You are actually about that statement about species specific features. You are confusing culture and species again. I love how you start off complaining that these are not optional and then go ahead and state the “the best option, and it is not an option at all.” This is hypocrisy at its finest. “Don’t do what they tell you to do, do what I tell you to do.”
I don't understand the problems.
More options should be fine, and the options include to not include the new options in your campaign.
Years ago, I saw a campaign where the restrictions were Humans only and no 👋🏻👋🏻wha-tah! monks. (Other origins and Shaolin type stuff wasn't part of the campaign setting.)
I keep seeing things that suggest a sentiment of, "If I don't want it in my campaign, you shouldn't have it in yours."
From what I've seen, 5e is designed to be more inclusive than ever before. There are a lot of different people to include, each with their own preferences, and those preferences won't necessarily overlap a lot of the time... and 5e, to my knowledge, allows separation of those overlaps if groups desire it for themselves but make no provisions to impose it upon other groups.
Is that so wrong?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
The Icewind Dale map in D&D celebration is actually helpful for dms who are keeping track of time
Also I got the Perfect forum title! 101th post!
Exactly. If your elf trains in elven weapons then they can keep elf weapon training. If they don’t, they can change it. THEY’RE ALL OPTIONAL RULES. They’re meant to expand options.
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Subclasses | Races | Spells | Magic Items | Monsters | Feats | Backgrounds
I disagree. Elves live for centuries. They aren't even considered adults until after most humans born at the same time are dead. There's plenty of time for them to pick up those weapon proficiencies, either from another elf or on their own because they want to get back to their culture. And, depending on class, it's not a big deal. Rogues know three of them off the bat. And if you trade out redundant weapon proficiencies for tools, then you have to explain those. Every dwarf and elf fighter is now going to have four extra tool proficiencies.
The story is always there. You just need to go looking for it. I think you lack imagination. And I think it makes you upset that others disagree with you because they see more than you do.
Telling someone they lack imagination for daring to suggest an elf backstory that doesn’t involve the apparently genetically required longsword proficiency is pretty rich. Just because the story is there doesn’t mean everyone should be forced to play it.
I think that you can just as easily imagine an elf that decided to train with a different set of weapons. If your elf is part of a brutal city gang, they aren't likely going to learn how to use traditional weapons like a longsword or bow.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
That doesn't make sense. Does that mean all long-living races should have more proficiencies, because they have more time to learn them?
It's optional, so if you don't like it, don't use it
I think you're being oversensitive. If you disagree with Yurei's approach, that's fine. But please refrain from saying she lacks imagination because she disagrees with you.
They are not optional, from the DM's perspective. It explicitly states that all DM's will follow the new rules. The players can choose to opt out. The DM has zero recourse if players decide to go with this madness. And as for "the best option, and it is not an option at all.", I am referring to my table. As a DM, deciding this will not be at my table, no matter how players whine.
These changes make the game now 6e. It is inevitable a new PHB will be published with these fundamental changes to how a char is created. And anything that so fundamentally changes a game is a new edition. XTGE expanded classes and subclasses, so could be called 5.1. This, alters the game in a massive way. So then, when I say "nope", at my table, my RAW table becomes a Homebrew table, or one playing 5th edition still, while you are playing 6e.
I don't think I'm being oversensitive. Nothing Yurei says has any impact on me, whatsoever. I'm simply commenting on a pattern of behavior I've seen here and elsewhere. Yurei, in my experience, is too quick to make up her mind and does not see the possibilities others put forward. That said, she may simply be too quick with her fingers across the keyboard. She's not wholly intractable. If she was, I'd have put her on "Ignore" and written her off.
Well, you can think that in your mind, don't go around insulting people
Idunno man, you’re the one trying to impose your own background ideas on other people. I’d say it’s you who’s not seeing the possibilities.
Sure, like I said, it's optional. Don't let it at your table if you think the features are "madness"
Also I am a DM, and from what I see is if you don't allow it players don't do it. Unless the players are unwilling.
Heh. And now I feel less bad. Thanks for that.
ALL RIGHTY.
Could I invent a reason for any given elf to possess EWT? Sure. Did I say in the post that figuring out which tools one gets and why is equally problematic for some characters? Absolutely. Do Dwarf/Elf Weapon Training cause problems in this new system? Yes, for a given definition of 'problems'.
I'd like to know, however, how a desire for more freedom and flexibility in character generation equates to a lack of imagination. I'd argue the precise opposite - any jackass can play the Galactic Standard D&D Archetropes that have existed for 50+ years at this point, those characters have been done to death and so far beyond that they've worn grooves in the universe. I could train my cat to play the Mysterious Elven Ranger, woods-wise and fleet, who stands apart from the crude cultures of humanity as a silent, imposing guardian of the Old Ways. Everybody knows that story. There's not really any reason to revisit it anymore.
The elven street tramp who grew up bereft of their "Superior" culture, given no time to spend two centuries growing up and none of the inbred grace and cradle training of the sylvan enclaves, forced to adapt to life within the worst slums of a massive human-dominated city like Waterdeep, Emon, Rexxentrum or Sharn? The kid for whom the haughty, oh-so-grand Old Culture of the elves is both a hated curse and a bitter dream of riches and leisure they'll never have? That's a story. What does that do to an elven mind? How does their dream trance, where they see visions of their past lives, impact them? How much more maddening is that loss of culture to someone who can see clear as a bell in their not-sleep what they've lost? How does that affect them? How twisted is this mind, especially now that it's (presumably) found a way to claw itself out of the streets and come into the immense power and prestige of an Adventurer? Does this person - still a child by elven standards - hate their own kind more fiercely than anyone else could? And how do other elves feel about what, to them, is a deranged child being in possession of all the power and resources of an Adventurer?
That's just one example. I could give you a dozen others: the dwarven bohemian who seeks to emulate the famed elven artists who inspired him in his youth, the tiefling nobleman who takes pride in his fiendish heritage and the promise of power in his blood, the kenku scribe raised by scholars and trained to use her mimicry and superb memory to assist them in their duties, the wandering hobgoblin sage and philosopher who's achieved an epiphanic realization about his people's adoration of war...playing around the tired-ass Galactic Standard Tropes are where the real stories are. At least for me and a lot of folks like me.
Flip a few levers, toggle a switch or two. Change the base assumptions, then follow the new logic to its end and see what you arrive at. That's where a lot of us find our fun. Vince, BigLizard, and several others prefer to play classic, traditionalist games where everyone stays in their lanes and colors inside their lines, recreating the Old Stories time and again. That's fine. if that's where they find their fun, they're welcome to it. But I would quit this game inside a month if all I was ever allowed to do was play the same-ass tired old worn-out overdone character that fifty years of nerds before me have already put their stank on. Vince and company can have those characters. I want mine.
And now Tasha's is giving me more levers to pull and switches to toggle than ever before, so hey! Win for everybody!
Please do not contact or message me.
I don't think that it is inevitable a new PHB will be published. The only things this document does is allow you to move around proficiency and change around 3 points in ability scores. No where, in any official Wizards release does it state that this is the start of Sixth Edition. Anyways, if this was the only rule 6e changed, I'd be pretty disappointed.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It may surprise some people to learn that Yurei has opinions. Yurei also has a way of expressing these opinions quite strongly; sometimes, she does so in such a way that replicates pointing a loaded shotgun straight at her foot. However, they are still her opinions, and she is entitled to them, just as other people are equally entitled to have their own opinions and disagree with her. I know I have disagreed with her on occasion, sometimes quite vehemently. However, that is not cause for me to go around saying she lacks imagination because we have a disagreement, and it would be wholly inappropriate for me to do so.
All we have right now is the DDAL player's document. Anyone who serves as a DM for DDAL has to abide by the official rules and rulings handed down by WotC. There's no wiggle room, so if you choose to run games for that season then you follow those prescribed rules. And nobody forces anyone to do it, so they're agreeing to the new rules upfront. Did you even notice that SCAG wasn't legal this season?
Wait to complain about how optional it is once Tasha's comes out. Which is silly because, at any and all home games, you decide which books are legal. You can make people roll 3d6 in order, if you want, and it's okay. Heck, if you want to ban counterspell, you can. You're complaining about something without understanding what's at stake (i.e. nothing).