Secondly, the argument is not that an interesting concept cant be done at all, the argument is that it takes additional effort in places that it doesn't make sense. For example, a body building wood elf who has +1 to dex and nothing additional to strength makes absolutely no sense for the exact reason you are trying to say it does make sense.
Waahhh! Something isn’t easy waahhh.
Simple, put your 15 in Str and your 8 in Dex and that represents all of those benchpresses, squats, and deep lunges for you.
Secondly, the argument is not that an interesting concept cant be done at all, the argument is that it takes additional effort in places that it doesn't make sense. For example, a body building wood elf who has +1 to dex and nothing additional to strength makes absolutely no sense for the exact reason you are trying to say it does make sense.
Waahhh! Something isn’t easy waahhh.
Simple, put your 15 in Str and your 8 in Dex and that represents all of those benchpresses, squats, and deep lunges for you.
Nah. I think i will stick with the new system that makes it easier and more worthwhile.
Choosing a specific race should be purely cosmetic. Options are useless when a baseline customization exists
An i mean if you want it to be directed at you i cant stop you from being offended at it
I would just prefer that there is no name calling. We can disagree without name calling. But if you wanna pick on somebody for not being just like you, I’m your huckleberry.
And I for one do not feel that Racial choice should be purely cosmetic. It should be significant. You keep your new system, that’s one chapter of the book I will not be purchasing.
Why should there not be any inherent stat advantage to a certain race/species? It takes around 8-10 dogs to pull a snow sled, but only 1 horse to pull the same sized sled. Why should the 6-7 foot orc not have +2 STR over the 3 foot gnome? I don't see many 5 foot basketball players either.
Why should there not be any inherent stat advantage to a certain race/species? It takes around 8-10 dogs to pull a snow sled, but only 1 horse to pull the same sized sled. Why should the 6-7 foot orc not have +2 STR over the 3 foot gnome? I don't see many 5 foot basketball players either.
Or 100 lb Linebackers either. Or snipers with terrible vision.
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
We have a race based on birds and lizards.
Birds have generally better eyesight than the best seeing humans. So yes being strong or having good eyes CAN be a race trait.
And when a player in a D&D campaign is asked to play an entire species, all at once, rather than a single specific Exceptional Rule-Breaker from that species, we can talk about ensuring the averages are respected.
PCs are heroes. They're outside the norm. Why should they be forced to conform strictly and inflexibly to their species norm when the very definition of "PC" within the world is 'Hero of Legend and Renown"?
Absolutely. But exceptional attributes are the overall statistics, not just a race's given bonus. An Orcish wizard may have 20 intelligence, but he may have read many books to achieve that peak. In the same way, a character may have to work hard for the title 'Hero of Legend and Renown'. Besides, if a DM wants to modify racial features to fit a character idea....by all means, he/she should do so.
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
We have a race based on birds and lizards.
Birds have generally better eyesight than the best seeing humans. So yes being strong or having good eyes CAN be a race trait.
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race.
Not real life races, but D&D “Hominid PC ‘Species’” are not like IRL “races.”
Half-Orcs are supposed to be big and strong, that’s kinda their thing, hence +2 Str. And Elves are supposed to have really good vision and hand-eye coordination making them exceptional shots, that’s kinda their thing, hence the +2 Dex.
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
That's laughable. Neither is the viewpoint 'influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy', nor is it true.
It may be legitimate to say that some half-orcs are weaker than humans, or that some gnomes are less cunning than orcs. But it would be incredibly misinformed to say that your average orc is as cunning as your average gnome.
Real world example? The vast majority of bears are stronger than humans. Darker skin tones have more melanin than lighter skin tones, and are therefore better protected from sunlight radiation.
We all know you can't argue with that:)
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Hi there! I'm a Christian musician based in Canada :)
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
That's laughable. Neither is the viewpoint 'influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy', nor is it true.
It may be legitimate to say that some half-orcs are weaker than humans, or that some gnomes are less cunning than orcs. But it would be incredibly misinformed to say that your average orc is as cunning as your average gnome.
Real world example? The vast majority of bears are stronger than humans. Darker skin tones have more melanin than lighter skin tones, and are therefore better protected from sunlight radiation.
We all know you can't argue with that:)
Yet there are humans who can wrestle bears. And there are lighter skinned people who wont get skin cancer while some more meleninated folks will get skin cancer.
Something i feel people on the other side of the argument arent understanding is that Adventurers (aka what all of these stat blocks for character creation are designed for) are the SUPPOSED to be the exception, not the rule. But you are free to still be the rule
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race. But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
That's laughable. Neither is the viewpoint 'influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy', nor is it true.
It may be legitimate to say that some half-orcs are weaker than humans, or that some gnomes are less cunning than orcs. But it would be incredibly misinformed to say that your average orc is as cunning as your average gnome.
Real world example? The vast majority of bears are stronger than humans. Darker skin tones have more melanin than lighter skin tones, and are therefore better protected from sunlight radiation.
We all know you can't argue with that:)
Yet there are humans who can wrestle bears. And there are lighter skinned people who wont get skin cancer while some more meleninated folks will get skin cancer.
Something i feel people on the other side are understanding is that Adventurers (aka what all of these stat blocks for character creation are designed for) are the SUPPOSED to be the exception, not the rule.
Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. But racial bonuses represent the average attributes of that given race.
I agree, most adventurers are beyond normal...but changing the entire Orc stat block to fit the minority of 'exceptional' examples is ludicrous. If one wishes to make an exceptionally charismatic Kobold character, they and their DM can adjust the average kobold stat block to fit said character. Besides, the greatest percentage of a character's stat is governed by what they rolled and not by their racial bonus.
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Hi there! I'm a Christian musician based in Canada :)
Yes, they are supposed to be the exception, but they, IMO, should not necessarily be equal. The average (because that is what we are talking about, the average starting point for heros) 300 lb species should have some inherent strength advantage over a 40 lb race. I don't care how exceptional you are as a PC, you still start at level 1. Through EXTRA work (ya know, all those levels after lvl 1), you can grow to have the same strength or more than that 300 lb species, but it strains credulity to think that your "backstory" is enough to get your 40 lb race to a starting STR of 20. Additionally, it strains credulity to think that BOTH species could have the SAME backstory (both hit the gym at 5 AM, 8 days a week) yet the one that is nearly 8 times the weight is no stronger for it.
Yes, they are supposed to be the exception, but they, IMO, should not necessarily be equal. The average (because that is what we are talking about, the average starting point for heros) 300 lb species should have some inherent strength advantage over a 40 lb race. I don't care how exceptional you are as a PC, you still start at level 1. Through EXTRA work (ya know, all those levels after lvl 1), you can grow to have the same strength or more than that 300 lb species, but it strains credulity to think that your "backstory" is enough to get your 40 lb race to a starting STR of 20. Additionally, it strains credulity to think that BOTH species could have the SAME backstory (both hit the gym at 5 AM, 8 days a week) yet the one that is nearly 8 times the weight is no stronger for it.
Well, having a starting stat of 20 is a whole other can of worm that i wont get into right now. But that example you gave about the gym and stuff, doenst work because a with that logic the smaller person should never even be able to achieve a 20 in strength, which is not true. Its just unnecessarily difficult
Edit: I will also reiterate, adventurers as a category are the ones who are supposed to be the exception. Not just some adventures
Maybe a solution to this would be to give players the option where to put their +2 ASI based on their characters training, but have certain stats your have to put the +1 ASI in based on your race.
For example, a Half-Orc Monk would put the +2 into WIS, but had to put the +1 into either STR or CON because Half-Orcs are known to be strong and hardy. An Elf Monk would have to put the +1 into CHA, DEX or INT.
Even simpler - every Race has a +2 and +1 ASI and 3 different "prefered" Abilities- when you make a character one ASI has to be in those prefered Abilities, the other can be chosen however you want. Lets you make every Race/Class combo without having no bonus for your most important stat.
"Can I beat this challenge" and "am I useful compared to the other PCs" are not concepts that are limited to MMOs.
Of course they aren't.
But the challenge does not come pre-packaged in D&D like it does in an MMO. The DM sets the challenge. If I'm looking at a party of uber-optimized power-builds, I'm going to set the challenge higher. Because otherwise it won't be any fun for anyone. If I'm looking at a bunch of what you would probably call "poor" builds, then I would calibrate encounters for that instead.
And "usefulness compared to other PCs" is both very hard to measure, and should not matter to a group of friends. In MMORPGs it matters so much that people will put a DPS meter on the team and /kick anyone who doesn't carry their weight. But this is not an MMORPG. We are not playing with strangers. We are playing with friends. The same kind of /kicking shouldn't be happening here.
Also, the idea that a half-orc who gets, not a penalty, but just no racial bonus to INT, would "not be useful" as a wizard is laughable. It's just that instead of being a complete one-trick pony like a wizard with the +2 bonus in INT might, he'll have some other skills and abilities. Instead of being 100 Wizard - 0 utility, maybe he's 80 Wizard - 20 utility. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, but people tend to undervalue (to their detriment) situational abilities. Situation abilities can often make or break an outing.
In City of Heroes, just about every one of my characters has at least 1 or 2 powers that would be considered "situational" and I guarantee the conventional wisdom of the COH FOTM-monkeys would call those characters "bad builds." But when the conditions occur for that situational power, they're going to faceplant, and I am not. And in every other case, my build is strong enough to do just fine. There is a reason when I came back to the game after it went to private servers, that my first character back in 8 years, out of practice and everything, did not die once, until level 32, even with optionally bumped mission difficulty.
Well, 2 reasons: (1) my "sub optimal" build was actually fine and not sub-optimal at all, and (2) that situational ability saved my neck more than once. Yeah, the one everyone would have told me not to take, had I asked (which I didn't).
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
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I always have my players roll stats. You wanna call me names now too?
Waahhh! Something isn’t easy waahhh.
Simple, put your 15 in Str and your 8 in Dex and that represents all of those benchpresses, squats, and deep lunges for you.
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Nah. I think i will stick with the new system that makes it easier and more worthwhile.
Choosing a specific race should be purely cosmetic. Options are useless when a baseline customization exists
An i mean if you want it to be directed at you i cant stop you from being offended at it
I would just prefer that there is no name calling. We can disagree without name calling. But if you wanna pick on somebody for not being just like you, I’m your huckleberry.
And I for one do not feel that Racial choice should be purely cosmetic. It should be significant. You keep your new system, that’s one chapter of the book I will not be purchasing.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Why should there not be any inherent stat advantage to a certain race/species? It takes around 8-10 dogs to pull a snow sled, but only 1 horse to pull the same sized sled. Why should the 6-7 foot orc not have +2 STR over the 3 foot gnome? I don't see many 5 foot basketball players either.
#OpenDnD
Or 100 lb Linebackers either. Or snipers with terrible vision.
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I wouldn't be surprised if this is the least selling book they ever release.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would be shocked if it isn’t one of their most popular to date.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Its an old joke actually. Never really seen pleb used as an actual insult but go off i guess
Because being strong or having good eyes isn’t specific to being of a race.
But by all means continue the backwards view point (that is by no means influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy) form allowing you to fully enjoy what this game has to offer.
We have a race based on birds and lizards.
Birds have generally better eyesight than the best seeing humans. So yes being strong or having good eyes CAN be a race trait.
Absolutely. But exceptional attributes are the overall statistics, not just a race's given bonus. An Orcish wizard may have 20 intelligence, but he may have read many books to achieve that peak. In the same way, a character may have to work hard for the title 'Hero of Legend and Renown'. Besides, if a DM wants to modify racial features to fit a character idea....by all means, he/she should do so.
Hi there! I'm a Christian musician based in Canada :)
But its not so this argument holds no ground
Not real life races, but D&D “Hominid PC ‘Species’” are not like IRL “races.”
Half-Orcs are supposed to be big and strong, that’s kinda their thing, hence +2 Str. And Elves are supposed to have really good vision and hand-eye coordination making them exceptional shots, that’s kinda their thing, hence the +2 Dex.
So... what?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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That's laughable. Neither is the viewpoint 'influenced by the Eurocentric Patriarchy', nor is it true.
It may be legitimate to say that some half-orcs are weaker than humans, or that some gnomes are less cunning than orcs. But it would be incredibly misinformed to say that your average orc is as cunning as your average gnome.
Real world example? The vast majority of bears are stronger than humans. Darker skin tones have more melanin than lighter skin tones, and are therefore better protected from sunlight radiation.
We all know you can't argue with that:)
Hi there! I'm a Christian musician based in Canada :)
Yet there are humans who can wrestle bears. And there are lighter skinned people who wont get skin cancer while some more meleninated folks will get skin cancer.
Something i feel people on the other side of the argument arent understanding is that Adventurers (aka what all of these stat blocks for character creation are designed for) are the SUPPOSED to be the exception, not the rule. But you are free to still be the rule
Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. But racial bonuses represent the average attributes of that given race.
I agree, most adventurers are beyond normal...but changing the entire Orc stat block to fit the minority of 'exceptional' examples is ludicrous. If one wishes to make an exceptionally charismatic Kobold character, they and their DM can adjust the average kobold stat block to fit said character. Besides, the greatest percentage of a character's stat is governed by what they rolled and not by their racial bonus.
Hi there! I'm a Christian musician based in Canada :)
Yes, they are supposed to be the exception, but they, IMO, should not necessarily be equal. The average (because that is what we are talking about, the average starting point for heros) 300 lb species should have some inherent strength advantage over a 40 lb race. I don't care how exceptional you are as a PC, you still start at level 1. Through EXTRA work (ya know, all those levels after lvl 1), you can grow to have the same strength or more than that 300 lb species, but it strains credulity to think that your "backstory" is enough to get your 40 lb race to a starting STR of 20. Additionally, it strains credulity to think that BOTH species could have the SAME backstory (both hit the gym at 5 AM, 8 days a week) yet the one that is nearly 8 times the weight is no stronger for it.
Well, having a starting stat of 20 is a whole other can of worm that i wont get into right now. But that example you gave about the gym and stuff, doenst work because a with that logic the smaller person should never even be able to achieve a 20 in strength, which is not true. Its just unnecessarily difficult
Edit: I will also reiterate, adventurers as a category are the ones who are supposed to be the exception. Not just some adventures
Maybe a solution to this would be to give players the option where to put their +2 ASI based on their characters training, but have certain stats your have to put the +1 ASI in based on your race.
For example, a Half-Orc Monk would put the +2 into WIS, but had to put the +1 into either STR or CON because Half-Orcs are known to be strong and hardy. An Elf Monk would have to put the +1 into CHA, DEX or INT.
Even simpler - every Race has a +2 and +1 ASI and 3 different "prefered" Abilities- when you make a character one ASI has to be in those prefered Abilities, the other can be chosen however you want. Lets you make every Race/Class combo without having no bonus for your most important stat.
#OpenDnD
Of course they aren't.
But the challenge does not come pre-packaged in D&D like it does in an MMO. The DM sets the challenge. If I'm looking at a party of uber-optimized power-builds, I'm going to set the challenge higher. Because otherwise it won't be any fun for anyone. If I'm looking at a bunch of what you would probably call "poor" builds, then I would calibrate encounters for that instead.
And "usefulness compared to other PCs" is both very hard to measure, and should not matter to a group of friends. In MMORPGs it matters so much that people will put a DPS meter on the team and /kick anyone who doesn't carry their weight. But this is not an MMORPG. We are not playing with strangers. We are playing with friends. The same kind of /kicking shouldn't be happening here.
Also, the idea that a half-orc who gets, not a penalty, but just no racial bonus to INT, would "not be useful" as a wizard is laughable. It's just that instead of being a complete one-trick pony like a wizard with the +2 bonus in INT might, he'll have some other skills and abilities. Instead of being 100 Wizard - 0 utility, maybe he's 80 Wizard - 20 utility. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, but people tend to undervalue (to their detriment) situational abilities. Situation abilities can often make or break an outing.
In City of Heroes, just about every one of my characters has at least 1 or 2 powers that would be considered "situational" and I guarantee the conventional wisdom of the COH FOTM-monkeys would call those characters "bad builds." But when the conditions occur for that situational power, they're going to faceplant, and I am not. And in every other case, my build is strong enough to do just fine. There is a reason when I came back to the game after it went to private servers, that my first character back in 8 years, out of practice and everything, did not die once, until level 32, even with optionally bumped mission difficulty.
Well, 2 reasons: (1) my "sub optimal" build was actually fine and not sub-optimal at all, and (2) that situational ability saved my neck more than once. Yeah, the one everyone would have told me not to take, had I asked (which I didn't).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.