For a lot of people (myself included), phones and other such devices are effective coping mechanisms for things like social anxiety or attention disruptive disorders.
Again, not to be rude, but the world doesn't revolve around you, your life and your needs. We all have our issues, but being considerate to others takes precedence over your social disorders. I don't see why your anxiety should take precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you.
I find this incredibly insulting and rude, so maybe you should consider measuring your tone when addressing such topics in future. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's just a case of tone getting lost in text.
Firstly, social anxiety is not a "social disorder", it's a mental health issue. It's one facet of generalised anxiety disorder and can be managed through several coping mechanisms, one of which being 'grounding' or 'escaping'. Using a device such as a phone is one way of grounding.
I would love to understand how you jumped from "person with mental health problems using a coping mechanism" to 'taking precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you'? As I mentioned immediately afterwards "So as long as players are being attentive, I think it's fine to have devices at the table". It is possible for someone to be using a device as a grounding method and still be attentive.
I am not asking the world to revolve around me, I'm just simply asking for a modicum of consideration and people not to make assumptions. It's a matter of compromise; the DM doesn't demand devices off and understands some players may require considerations, and the players respect that those considerations are being given and remain attentive to the game.
Some people hate that idea. They want the game to be fixed and unchanging, and they're afraid of what adopting a digital ecosystem would do. They want their dead tree edition that they can set on the shelf and be assured of never needing to change, and frankly I'm okay with there being Special Collector DTEs. But the primary edition should be digital, as I've argued before in this ancient pointless necrotic husk of a thread, because digital offers so many benefits over DTE. To say nothing of significantly lower cost due to not needing many multiple millions of dollars in physical production overhead, ne?
I do not think it is too difficult to keep your digital ecosystem static and safe either. For Beyond, you can just use homebrew tools to have a backup copy of the old stuff before they get errata'd, or just download the webpage before it gets taken down for adventures. I did both for Dark Tides of Bilgewater, so I have all the subclasses, items, and monsters, and I can just open the HTML files for the adventure.
And if the demand for old stuff is high enough, businesses may even consider selling the old stuff alongside the errata'd version for more money.
No digital for DM. Players need to be attentive to story and presently available, not fumbling through their digital phones, disregarding the endless hours a DM (I do) spends creating a story. You came to a table to be in person, turn off your digital devices. If you have other obligations, don't attend. A player just needs his character sheets and imagination. DM will handle the rest.
I just want to echo off Davyd's response to point out that you're dictating these insistences on a forum that exists to support users of a digital toolset for _playing_ D&D, as in bring your screen to the table and the character sheet is right there with a lot of the math done and with the dice embedded in. If scapegoating digital devices is your way of feeling secure about player engagement, you can do that. I wouldn't say it's the right or productive way to address concerns over player engagement, and seems to scapegoat technology over looking at best practices for a DM taking care of, or as you put it "handling," the game, but if your table keeps showing up, do your thing.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
There is nothing I find more disturbing then playing a social game like D&D, looking up and seeing five people staring into a screen don't their phones and Ipads. Its very disconerning and kind of defeats the purpose of everyone gathering for a social occasion. I don't really see why anyone would have issue with that either because its not appropriate in any other social gathering. I mean when you go to a party with friends, is it not rude to pull out your phone and ignore everyone around you? When you are out at dinner, do you pull out your phone to check the menu in the restaurant?
Not to "Well actually" but actually, nah, to full throatedly well, actually, restaurants and bars, including some fancy ones do experiment on a non gimmick level with menus navigated through a personal device. It was a thing before "touchless service" was a public health matter, and more have embraced the concept in the recent concern for food server health. It does help in places with frequently changing menus but the homogenized fast food places do it too (also helps with "living" menus to riff off Yuriel, and possibly a good adaptation where situations of food scarcity due to supply chain issues may become more and more of the new normal). I like it because even with my glasses I can't always figure out what's on the fancy chalkboard, especially if there are cross outs in the mix, and when a server is running through a verbal menu, my ears have suffered too much range time and shows and thus force me to ask them to repeat themselves a lot (and I prefer to deliberate and decide with a text in front of me).
This sounds more like unease over technologies' increased integration in social life. Whether there's a glowing screen at the table doesn't tell you whether the game is being compromised. Playing the game does. The counterpoint to your everyone on a screen dystopia is an experience I see just as common. Someone with a lot of paper and open books going "ummm, let's see..." at their turn, and the next person declares their action and bonus action with authority and announces available reactions as they check off tabs they made after their character sheets.
The technology isn't the problem, it's how the DM and players manage the technology, which is, in fact, a social thing. Sometimes tech can distract, sometimes it can facilitate.
Again, I find some of these broadsides against devices at table odd on a forum for a toolset that was predicated on the notion of brining devices to table to facilitate play.
For a lot of people (myself included), phones and other such devices are effective coping mechanisms for things like social anxiety or attention disruptive disorders.
Again, not to be rude, but the world doesn't revolve around you, your life and your needs. We all have our issues, but being considerate to others takes precedence over your social disorders. I don't see why your anxiety should take precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you.
I find this incredibly insulting and rude, so maybe you should consider measuring your tone when addressing such topics in future. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's just a case of tone getting lost in text.
Firstly, social anxiety is not a "social disorder", it's a mental health issue. It's one facet of generalised anxiety disorder and can be managed through several coping mechanisms, one of which being 'grounding' or 'escaping'. Using a device such as a phone is one way of grounding.
I would love to understand how you jumped from "person with mental health problems using a coping mechanism" to 'taking precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you'? As I mentioned immediately afterwards "So as long as players are being attentive, I think it's fine to have devices at the table". It is possible for someone to be using a device as a grounding method and still be attentive.
I am not asking the world to revolve around me, I'm just simply asking for a modicum of consideration and people not to make assumptions. It's a matter of compromise; the DM doesn't demand devices off and understands some players may require considerations, and the players respect that those considerations are being given and remain attentive to the game.
I'm sitting at my PC, with music playing in the background, with my phone close at hand in case my fiance calls. I'm currently paying attention to three things at once so you hit the nail right on the head there!
If the guy at the end of the table has his fidget spinner under the table and is paying attention to what's going on in-game, why should I care?
What is definitely rude though is to insist that all other tables follow the same table manners as you do. The world does not revolve around your table, and many tables just do not care about manners and etiquette that much as long as people are having fun.
I'm simply speaking my mind about how I handle things at my table, but I will point out that what I do at my table is not a matter of personal preference, it is an understanding of society at large. Not playing with digital devices while in a social occasion like a game night, dinner party or funeral, is not a matter of personal preference, but a matter of social etiquette. Its a bit like burping at the dinner table, you say excuse me if it happens and you know you should not do it because its rude. Respect isn't some sort of theoretical concept, its an actual thing that exists.
Your table, your rules. My table, my rules. Society can **** off about what I or my players do at my table. If I want to GM buttnaked and my players are okay with it, then by all means I will be buttnaked. If my players want to play Candy Crush and D&D at the same time, then by all means play both; if they are not slowing down combat, I do not care what they do on their phones.
This is not a business meeting or a public social event like a funeral or wedding. This is a hobby in the private setting of a home, private room, or whatever.
Your table, your rules. My table, my rules. Society can **** off about what I or my players do at my table. If I want to GM buttnaked and my players are okay with it, then by all means I will be buttnaked. If my players want to play Candy Crush and D&D at the same time, then by all means play both; if they are not slowing down combat, I do not care what they do on their phones.
This is not a business meeting or a public social event like a funeral or wedding. This is a hobby in the private setting of a home, private room, or whatever.
It's an interesting to point, but what if one of your players was deeply offended by a naked DM, made them uncomfortable, considered it really rude Would you then adjust your game, or kick the person out for being too picky?
If GMing buttnaked is a big deal to me, then yes, either the player or I leave. I am GMing for my close friends though and we are pretty comfortable with each other, so social etiquette is not something that cross our minds often, if at all.
Nobody has ever, in the entire history of humanity as a civilization, read a Wizards of the Coast errata document; ...
For all of 3rd edition I kept up with every new errata release, and I recall much rejoicing on the forums when WotC started to color-mark the new entries since that made it easier to skip to the new stuff.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
If you're offended, I apologize, certainly was not my intention to be rude. But it does bring up a good point, I said something that was construed as rude, I apologized, a good example on how social etiquette works and does in fact exist. It's possible to do something with good intentions and reasonable explanations and still offend someone, like for example playing with your phone during a game session. Some might understand that you are simply coping with something others might think you're just being rude, playing with your phone instead of playing the game. The social convention is to extend respect to others despite personal discomfort rather than obligate everyone around you to simply accept your needs. I know that may sound a bit harsh, but it is how social etiquette works. You extend curteosy rather than expecting consideration.
Hello BigLizard,
Might I ask what courtesy or respect you would be extending to someone who is using their phone as a tool to cope with their behavioral disorder? With respect, as an observer, your perspective seems to be very focused on having your needs met under the pretense of social etiquette. It is not disrespectful to address your behavioral needs in a healthy way. This post smacks of irony and is shockingly insensitive given D&D's demographics.
Might I ask what courtesy or respect you would be extending to someone who is using their phone as a tool to cope with their behavioral disorder? With respect, as an observer, your perspective seems to be very focused on having your needs met under the pretense of social etiquette. It is not disrespectful to address your behavioral needs in a healthy way. This post smacks of irony and is shockingly insensitive given D&D's demographics.
Thank you for being polite and I don't mind you asking at all. To answer your question directly, I would make an exception as this would be the social convention (proper etiquette) and allow the person to use his phone at my table.
To the second part, no I'm not trying to meet my needs, I'm adhering to the pretty normal respectful expectations of the average joe, of which I would assume 4-5 are sitting at my table. Not playing with your phone at a social event, is not a matter of my personal preference but simply polite behavior. It falls under the same social behavior like not putting your elbows on the table and chewing with your mouth closed, not picking your nose or talking over people.
D&D's is not some sort of unique social group, its normal people with normal expectations. I would be equally insensitive to someone using their phone at the table as I might be if they were be sexist or cheating. Good social behavior is not an unreasonable expectation to have.
As someone who likes to dig into a BIG SANDWICH two fisted style, but not wanting the condiment cascade on my lap, I never understood the elbows thing, and at a game table sometimes you want a little leverage to lean into the roll so the rest of the table can see how it lands. Beyond that, I wouldn't lump any technology with open mouth chewing, nose picking or talking over people. The latter are close to inarguable poor socialization, the former is possibly a tool of game facilitation or social integration (on the grounding level discussed). If anything categorically berating a device at table whether to explicitly facilitate play, or facilitate a person's ability to socially play (citing the range of possibilities Davyd proposed where a device can actually help someone) is more akin to talking over people. Also the meta irony thing where we're having this discussion on a message board supporting a digital toolset designed more to be brought to a table than a VTT in initial conception. If you don't like tech at the table, that's a matter of taste and a standard you hold but excusing your parameters to social norms isn't sticking the landing here.
Might I ask what courtesy or respect you would be extending to someone who is using their phone as a tool to cope with their behavioral disorder? With respect, as an observer, your perspective seems to be very focused on having your needs met under the pretense of social etiquette. It is not disrespectful to address your behavioral needs in a healthy way. This post smacks of irony and is shockingly insensitive given D&D's demographics.
Thank you for being polite and I don't mind you asking at all. To answer your question directly, I would make an exception as this would be the social convention (proper etiquette) and allow the person to use his phone at my table.
To the second part, no I'm not trying to meet my needs, I'm adhering to the pretty normal respectful expectations of the average joe, of which I would assume 4-5 are sitting at my table. Not playing with your phone at a social event, is not a matter of my personal preference but simply polite behavior. It falls under the same social behavior like not putting your elbows on the table and chewing with your mouth closed, not picking your nose or talking over people.
D&D's is not some sort of unique social group, its normal people with normal expectations. I would be equally insensitive to someone using their phone at the table as I might be if they were be sexist or cheating. Good social behavior is not an unreasonable expectation to have.
I suppose I am seeing a bit of a mixed message then. Your current position that you would make an exception for such an individual is in direct opposition to your earlier position (quoted below). Every message you have posted on this matter has revolved around your personal offense to seeing people using digital tools at your table, carefully shielded under the pretense of being a champion of social etiquette. Further, social etiquette is subjective. There are no universal rules for polite behavior. You take issue with elbows on the table, but you will find that this rule does not apply consistently across cultures or class. I personally grew up in destitution. There is not a single moment in memory where the subject of elbows at the table was ever discussed, except to mock self-important snobs. Even now in my current socioeconomic status, I rarely see this 'rule' given conscious thought. Eating with one's mouth open is another example of your views being a reflection of your specific upbringing, not a reflection of society as a whole. I can guarantee you that you can find people in your own community who do not share your views on how to eat appropriately. Comparing the use of the phone at the table to someone being sexist or cheating also feels decidedly like a false comparison. Rudeness is subject to gradation. Making the argument that someone using their phone at your table (even when it is not used as a coping mechanism but instead is used because they find your game boring) is just as bad as someone being overtly sexist or cheating (either in the game or in relationships) just seems silly to me. Perhaps you do actually feel this way, but I feel that these offenses are worlds apart. Then again, this offers additional support to my earlier comment on how 'good behavior' and by extension, 'bad behavior' is subjective. I hope you can be cognizant of that fact when measuring your levels of outrage upon seeing someone using digital tools at your table.
There is nothing I find more disturbing then playing a social game like D&D, looking up and seeing five people staring into a screen don't their phones and Ipads. Its very disconerning and kind of defeats the purpose of everyone gathering for a social occasion. I don't really see why anyone would have issue with that either because its not appropriate in any other social gathering. I mean when you go to a party with friends, is it not rude to pull out your phone and ignore everyone around you? When you are out at dinner, do you pull out your phone to check the menu in the restaurant?
I get that digital tools have a lot of benefits and I really don't have a problem with them, I just don't want them at the table is all.
These comments openly admit to a personal issue with D&D being digitized and that personal frustration has (at least earlier in this discussion) biased your feelings on digital tools at your table. I imagine that there are few who would agree that seeing a phone being used at a D&D table is the most disturbing thing they can possibly see. Is it fair to say that your position has evolved based on the responses you have received for sharing your opinion? If so, then I feel satisfied in your new position, but it is contrary to your previous stances.
Again, not to be rude, but the world doesn't revolve around you, your life and your needs. We all have our issues, but being considerate to others takes precedence over your social disorders. I don't see why your anxiety should take precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you.
I do believe that if someone addressed you in the same way, you would find this comment extremely rude. Prefacing a rude comment with a desire to avoid being rude is not a license to act in whatever way you see fit. This comment is unquestionably inconsiderate of others, while at the same time establishes an expectation on everyone else to be considerate of others, which contextually, directly and conveniently benefits you and your personal preferences. It is a comment with a clear ulterior motive, expressed at the expense of those with behavioral disorders, which is to say that it is an attack on a vulnerable population.
I'm simply speaking my mind about how I handle things at my table, but I will point out that what I do at my table is not a matter of personal preference, it is an understanding of society at large. Not playing with digital devices while in a social occasion like a game night, dinner party or funeral, is not a matter of personal preference, but a matter of social etiquette. Its a bit like burping at the dinner table, you say excuse me if it happens and you know you should not do it because its rude. Respect isn't some sort of theoretical concept, its an actual thing that exists.
I strongly disagree with these expressed motivations. What you do at your table is a matter of personal preference, because as our societal understanding of individual needs grows, what we as a society consider to be appropriate behavior also evolves. Atypical does not equal rude. To me, this seems like an intention to shift accountability for your choices away from yourself and place it on society. We now know that many people need devices like a phone to occupy their minds when they feel triggering pressures, such as when they are nervous or stressed. These things easily can happen during a D&D session and our response to this behavior should be equally updated to match our current understanding of individual needs, not rooted in what we learned about appropriate table manners several decades ago. To deny your players a necessary outlet seems overly restrictive to me and potentially reduces the player's fun specifically to accommodate the ego of the DM. This is your table and your rules should be respected by those who choose to sit at your table, but I can definitely see how some might view your table as one they would not want to return to if this is how you choose to address those with differing needs. Perhaps that is for the best. I do think the entire issue can be avoided with an open and welcoming conversation between you and your potential players before you start a game. A discussion on what your needs are and what your player's needs are will avoid this situation entirely. If no one has a need to use their phone to vent some of the stress they are feeling during a particularly intense point in a session, then I can easily see how people could have fun at your table without digital devices.
I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and I absolutely appreciate your recent flexibility on the matter. I hope you can understand how I may have viewed your argument based on your previous posts on the matter.
Quick note: people don't necessarily have their faces in their screens with a digital game any more than they have their faces in their sheets with a paper game. You look up your sheet when you need to, in both cases. One of them simply dynamically tracks things, as opposed to a p&p sheet where you have to erase and remark things like your HP, spell slots, and such ten billion times a session. I prefer working with a digital character sheet I can edit freely, but that doesn't mean I'd be staring at my phone the whole time during a game. I'd just reference my phone and the sheet on it when I needed to. Just like someone else can be researching their paper sheet while still being attentive, somebody can reference a digital sheet without checking out of the game.
If someone hates phones being at the table, all right. That's their thing, that's how that table works. But it ain't universal, and the mere existence of digital tools don't turn people into smartphone zombies during the game.
One could as easily get lost in a PHB or other options section in Tasha's or Xanathar's that has nothing to do with the character being played but is "cooler" to read about while waiting for their turn to come around. I know this tangent started with someone recommending a complete table lock down of digital and presumably everything else but their sheet and dice (though dice stacking is a thing) but I think most tables would find such protocols excessive. The issue is how does a DM maintain player engagement when the spotlight isn't on the player's character, not the medium through which the player distracts themself. I mean, even if you do strip the player of everything but paper and keep the dice locked up unless the player needs to roll, most players have an interior headspace to dwell in. Not to date myself with the reference, but as a player I'll freely admit to not feeling it every session when we were in a combat bog and my attention would shift to my singing "Go! Go! Power Rangers!" in my head, and I've never seen a full episode of the show. Consequently, my final advice is work on what you can do, which is your best job to keep the table engaged through your performance as DM and not have faith that enforcing object bans is the path to an involved or happy table, it's neither. And psst, some of those digital tools on this thing called D&D Beyond actually might make your game flow faster.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I must confess to being really confused by the anti-device comments (from @SeattleGamer and @BigLizard, specifically) given the nature of this forum. D&D Beyond is a digital tools explicitly built to facilitate gaming at the table. There are features being built that work best if all players are on DDB. Do what you want at your table but saying having devices at the game table is bad manners is pretty offensive in this context and shows a level of being ou- of-touch and un-self-aware (unless you're being completely ironic and I missed it).
If a DM spends many hours (like I do) in creating adventures and stories to ensure its immersive and memorable for all attending at a table, to say nothing about hosting and running a game - its the DM's hosting rules. If someone wants to be digital, there are plenty of venues online for that. You sit at a table: no reason to have your phone out, tablet, laptop, e-readers, flash drives, scanners, mouse, keyboard...just your imagination and character sheets - and that's that how I roll (PUN!).
Although it would be better for the environment, I really hope it will still be available in hardcover.
I just love books :) And it's easier for a first read through. Sure, digital is easier to look up at the game table, but otherwise its more difficult to learn. Also, research suggest that your memory is better when you've read a text in a book, opposed to reading it on a screen. So, if you read it in a book, you are less likely in need to look it up in game, therefor you have a smoother game.
Although it would be better for the environment, I really hope it will still be available in hardcover.
I just love books :) And it's easier for a first read through. Sure, digital is easier to look up at the game table, but otherwise its more difficult to learn. Also, research suggest that your memory is better when you've read a text in a book, opposed to reading it on a screen. So, if you read it in a book, you are less likely in need to look it up in game, therefor you have a smoother game.
Another reason: I REALLY LIKE BOOKS
/wizard mode out
I think folks who like to read prefer the books, and the folks who want a quick reference prefer online formats; and you're right there is suggestive evidence that the same text in "book" form vs "web" formats are processed differently. Digital renditions that maintain the "bookish"s structure do encourage a pacing similar to physical books, but not perfectly. It's interesting stuff, and frankly I think says a lot about the ways folks think about information and what they think "knowing" is in contexts beyond just TTRPGs.
If a DM spends many hours (like I do) in creating adventures and stories to ensure its immersive and memorable for all attending at a table, to say nothing about hosting and running a game - its the DM's hosting rules. If someone wants to be digital, there are plenty of venues online for that. You sit at a table: no reason to have your phone out, tablet, laptop, e-readers, flash drives, scanners, mouse, keyboard...just your imagination and character sheets - and that's that how I roll (PUN!).
You know, you're not the only DM who invests time in their games, right?
I understand you think very highly of the games you run, and have expectations as to how players respect your conduct rules; but repeating what you already wrote in this discussion doesn't really address the arguments put against your stance. I guess that's how you roll (I also think I got a nat 20 in deja vu, or maybe it was a 1). But let's distill the objections to your stance and put it directly to your game in the form of a thought experiment, sort of a role playing exercise. A player shows up with a tablet. Says, "yeah, I just bring this, my folks and family go through so much toner for work and school, having the sheet on this is just easier and keeps our home office supply budget low. And frankly when I roll dice, especially in a group setting like table play, I have trouble doing the math and will usually add wrong, not to mention me flipping 6s and 9s by accident all the time. I'm just a disaster like that, and the funny thing is my misreading more often than not go against my favor. Doing numbers was a problem in school, still is, to be honest. So with this tablet here I have my D&D Beyond Character sheet, and if I need to roll, I just press or click on the section of the sheet that governs my roll and can even show it to my DM in a log sheet." There are a lot of people like that in the gaming community who are enabled by these technologies you hyperbolically distain. Are you going to kick that player from your table? I mean you do you, but there's sticking to principle and then there's being unaccommodating.
Like, do you even D&D Beyond, Bro? You know the pdf print outs are reputed to be seriously lacking in functionality when in comparison to the digital tool used as design (i.e. pop up spell description instead of having look through microfont before looking it up in a manual, etc.).
Sure, digital is easier to look up at the game table, but otherwise its more difficult to learn.
It could be, but in the versions we're getting now it really isn't. It's convenient that everything is in one big source, but that rarely matters to me at the game table: I have my character's mechanics in my charsheet as a player and my monster's/NPC's in their statblocks and that's where I'll reference them. The stuff I may need to look up during the game is things that aren't specific to anything so they likely aren't on any sheet, and DDB's search function isn't half as good for that as the index the books have. This digital implementation is at least in part based on WotC's requirements (no .pdfs) so I'm not pointing fingers to this site, just saying that for me the practical side isn't as clear-cut as that.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Sure, digital is easier to look up at the game table, but otherwise its more difficult to learn.
It could be, but in the versions we're getting now it really isn't. It's convenient that everything is in one big source, but that rarely matters to me at the game table: I have my character's mechanics in my charsheet as a player and my monster's/NPC's in their statblocks and that's where I'll reference them. The stuff I may need to look up during the game is things that aren't specific to anything so they likely aren't on any sheet, and DDB's search function isn't half as good for that as the index the books have. This digital implementation is at least in part based on WotC's requirements (no .pdfs) so I'm not pointing fingers to this site, just saying that for me the practical side isn't as clear-cut as that.
But if you're working off your sheet in DDB, most of the stuff you're looking for you get the compendium description just by clicking for the feature or spell description via the sheet. In other words, it puts what you should know from the books for your character right there in the sheet.
I find this incredibly insulting and rude, so maybe you should consider measuring your tone when addressing such topics in future. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's just a case of tone getting lost in text.
Firstly, social anxiety is not a "social disorder", it's a mental health issue. It's one facet of generalised anxiety disorder and can be managed through several coping mechanisms, one of which being 'grounding' or 'escaping'. Using a device such as a phone is one way of grounding.
I would love to understand how you jumped from "person with mental health problems using a coping mechanism" to 'taking precedence over the comfort of the 5 other people at the table with you'? As I mentioned immediately afterwards "So as long as players are being attentive, I think it's fine to have devices at the table". It is possible for someone to be using a device as a grounding method and still be attentive.
I am not asking the world to revolve around me, I'm just simply asking for a modicum of consideration and people not to make assumptions. It's a matter of compromise; the DM doesn't demand devices off and understands some players may require considerations, and the players respect that those considerations are being given and remain attentive to the game.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I do not think it is too difficult to keep your digital ecosystem static and safe either. For Beyond, you can just use homebrew tools to have a backup copy of the old stuff before they get errata'd, or just download the webpage before it gets taken down for adventures. I did both for Dark Tides of Bilgewater, so I have all the subclasses, items, and monsters, and I can just open the HTML files for the adventure.
And if the demand for old stuff is high enough, businesses may even consider selling the old stuff alongside the errata'd version for more money.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
I just want to echo off Davyd's response to point out that you're dictating these insistences on a forum that exists to support users of a digital toolset for _playing_ D&D, as in bring your screen to the table and the character sheet is right there with a lot of the math done and with the dice embedded in. If scapegoating digital devices is your way of feeling secure about player engagement, you can do that. I wouldn't say it's the right or productive way to address concerns over player engagement, and seems to scapegoat technology over looking at best practices for a DM taking care of, or as you put it "handling," the game, but if your table keeps showing up, do your thing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Not to "Well actually" but actually, nah, to full throatedly well, actually, restaurants and bars, including some fancy ones do experiment on a non gimmick level with menus navigated through a personal device. It was a thing before "touchless service" was a public health matter, and more have embraced the concept in the recent concern for food server health. It does help in places with frequently changing menus but the homogenized fast food places do it too (also helps with "living" menus to riff off Yuriel, and possibly a good adaptation where situations of food scarcity due to supply chain issues may become more and more of the new normal). I like it because even with my glasses I can't always figure out what's on the fancy chalkboard, especially if there are cross outs in the mix, and when a server is running through a verbal menu, my ears have suffered too much range time and shows and thus force me to ask them to repeat themselves a lot (and I prefer to deliberate and decide with a text in front of me).
This sounds more like unease over technologies' increased integration in social life. Whether there's a glowing screen at the table doesn't tell you whether the game is being compromised. Playing the game does. The counterpoint to your everyone on a screen dystopia is an experience I see just as common. Someone with a lot of paper and open books going "ummm, let's see..." at their turn, and the next person declares their action and bonus action with authority and announces available reactions as they check off tabs they made after their character sheets.
The technology isn't the problem, it's how the DM and players manage the technology, which is, in fact, a social thing. Sometimes tech can distract, sometimes it can facilitate.
Again, I find some of these broadsides against devices at table odd on a forum for a toolset that was predicated on the notion of brining devices to table to facilitate play.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I'm sitting at my PC, with music playing in the background, with my phone close at hand in case my fiance calls. I'm currently paying attention to three things at once so you hit the nail right on the head there!
If the guy at the end of the table has his fidget spinner under the table and is paying attention to what's going on in-game, why should I care?
Your table, your rules. My table, my rules. Society can **** off about what I or my players do at my table. If I want to GM buttnaked and my players are okay with it, then by all means I will be buttnaked. If my players want to play Candy Crush and D&D at the same time, then by all means play both; if they are not slowing down combat, I do not care what they do on their phones.
This is not a business meeting or a public social event like a funeral or wedding. This is a hobby in the private setting of a home, private room, or whatever.
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If GMing buttnaked is a big deal to me, then yes, either the player or I leave. I am GMing for my close friends though and we are pretty comfortable with each other, so social etiquette is not something that cross our minds often, if at all.
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For all of 3rd edition I kept up with every new errata release, and I recall much rejoicing on the forums when WotC started to color-mark the new entries since that made it easier to skip to the new stuff.
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Hello BigLizard,
Might I ask what courtesy or respect you would be extending to someone who is using their phone as a tool to cope with their behavioral disorder? With respect, as an observer, your perspective seems to be very focused on having your needs met under the pretense of social etiquette. It is not disrespectful to address your behavioral needs in a healthy way. This post smacks of irony and is shockingly insensitive given D&D's demographics.
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As someone who likes to dig into a BIG SANDWICH two fisted style, but not wanting the condiment cascade on my lap, I never understood the elbows thing, and at a game table sometimes you want a little leverage to lean into the roll so the rest of the table can see how it lands. Beyond that, I wouldn't lump any technology with open mouth chewing, nose picking or talking over people. The latter are close to inarguable poor socialization, the former is possibly a tool of game facilitation or social integration (on the grounding level discussed). If anything categorically berating a device at table whether to explicitly facilitate play, or facilitate a person's ability to socially play (citing the range of possibilities Davyd proposed where a device can actually help someone) is more akin to talking over people. Also the meta irony thing where we're having this discussion on a message board supporting a digital toolset designed more to be brought to a table than a VTT in initial conception. If you don't like tech at the table, that's a matter of taste and a standard you hold but excusing your parameters to social norms isn't sticking the landing here.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I suppose I am seeing a bit of a mixed message then. Your current position that you would make an exception for such an individual is in direct opposition to your earlier position (quoted below). Every message you have posted on this matter has revolved around your personal offense to seeing people using digital tools at your table, carefully shielded under the pretense of being a champion of social etiquette. Further, social etiquette is subjective. There are no universal rules for polite behavior. You take issue with elbows on the table, but you will find that this rule does not apply consistently across cultures or class. I personally grew up in destitution. There is not a single moment in memory where the subject of elbows at the table was ever discussed, except to mock self-important snobs. Even now in my current socioeconomic status, I rarely see this 'rule' given conscious thought. Eating with one's mouth open is another example of your views being a reflection of your specific upbringing, not a reflection of society as a whole. I can guarantee you that you can find people in your own community who do not share your views on how to eat appropriately. Comparing the use of the phone at the table to someone being sexist or cheating also feels decidedly like a false comparison. Rudeness is subject to gradation. Making the argument that someone using their phone at your table (even when it is not used as a coping mechanism but instead is used because they find your game boring) is just as bad as someone being overtly sexist or cheating (either in the game or in relationships) just seems silly to me. Perhaps you do actually feel this way, but I feel that these offenses are worlds apart. Then again, this offers additional support to my earlier comment on how 'good behavior' and by extension, 'bad behavior' is subjective. I hope you can be cognizant of that fact when measuring your levels of outrage upon seeing someone using digital tools at your table.
These comments openly admit to a personal issue with D&D being digitized and that personal frustration has (at least earlier in this discussion) biased your feelings on digital tools at your table. I imagine that there are few who would agree that seeing a phone being used at a D&D table is the most disturbing thing they can possibly see. Is it fair to say that your position has evolved based on the responses you have received for sharing your opinion? If so, then I feel satisfied in your new position, but it is contrary to your previous stances.
I do believe that if someone addressed you in the same way, you would find this comment extremely rude. Prefacing a rude comment with a desire to avoid being rude is not a license to act in whatever way you see fit. This comment is unquestionably inconsiderate of others, while at the same time establishes an expectation on everyone else to be considerate of others, which contextually, directly and conveniently benefits you and your personal preferences. It is a comment with a clear ulterior motive, expressed at the expense of those with behavioral disorders, which is to say that it is an attack on a vulnerable population.
I strongly disagree with these expressed motivations. What you do at your table is a matter of personal preference, because as our societal understanding of individual needs grows, what we as a society consider to be appropriate behavior also evolves. Atypical does not equal rude. To me, this seems like an intention to shift accountability for your choices away from yourself and place it on society. We now know that many people need devices like a phone to occupy their minds when they feel triggering pressures, such as when they are nervous or stressed. These things easily can happen during a D&D session and our response to this behavior should be equally updated to match our current understanding of individual needs, not rooted in what we learned about appropriate table manners several decades ago. To deny your players a necessary outlet seems overly restrictive to me and potentially reduces the player's fun specifically to accommodate the ego of the DM. This is your table and your rules should be respected by those who choose to sit at your table, but I can definitely see how some might view your table as one they would not want to return to if this is how you choose to address those with differing needs. Perhaps that is for the best. I do think the entire issue can be avoided with an open and welcoming conversation between you and your potential players before you start a game. A discussion on what your needs are and what your player's needs are will avoid this situation entirely. If no one has a need to use their phone to vent some of the stress they are feeling during a particularly intense point in a session, then I can easily see how people could have fun at your table without digital devices.
I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and I absolutely appreciate your recent flexibility on the matter. I hope you can understand how I may have viewed your argument based on your previous posts on the matter.
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Quick note: people don't necessarily have their faces in their screens with a digital game any more than they have their faces in their sheets with a paper game. You look up your sheet when you need to, in both cases. One of them simply dynamically tracks things, as opposed to a p&p sheet where you have to erase and remark things like your HP, spell slots, and such ten billion times a session. I prefer working with a digital character sheet I can edit freely, but that doesn't mean I'd be staring at my phone the whole time during a game. I'd just reference my phone and the sheet on it when I needed to. Just like someone else can be researching their paper sheet while still being attentive, somebody can reference a digital sheet without checking out of the game.
If someone hates phones being at the table, all right. That's their thing, that's how that table works. But it ain't universal, and the mere existence of digital tools don't turn people into smartphone zombies during the game.
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One could as easily get lost in a PHB or other options section in Tasha's or Xanathar's that has nothing to do with the character being played but is "cooler" to read about while waiting for their turn to come around. I know this tangent started with someone recommending a complete table lock down of digital and presumably everything else but their sheet and dice (though dice stacking is a thing) but I think most tables would find such protocols excessive. The issue is how does a DM maintain player engagement when the spotlight isn't on the player's character, not the medium through which the player distracts themself. I mean, even if you do strip the player of everything but paper and keep the dice locked up unless the player needs to roll, most players have an interior headspace to dwell in. Not to date myself with the reference, but as a player I'll freely admit to not feeling it every session when we were in a combat bog and my attention would shift to my singing "Go! Go! Power Rangers!" in my head, and I've never seen a full episode of the show. Consequently, my final advice is work on what you can do, which is your best job to keep the table engaged through your performance as DM and not have faith that enforcing object bans is the path to an involved or happy table, it's neither. And psst, some of those digital tools on this thing called D&D Beyond actually might make your game flow faster.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I must confess to being really confused by the anti-device comments (from @SeattleGamer and @BigLizard, specifically) given the nature of this forum. D&D Beyond is a digital tools explicitly built to facilitate gaming at the table. There are features being built that work best if all players are on DDB. Do what you want at your table but saying having devices at the game table is bad manners is pretty offensive in this context and shows a level of being ou- of-touch and un-self-aware (unless you're being completely ironic and I missed it).
If a DM spends many hours (like I do) in creating adventures and stories to ensure its immersive and memorable for all attending at a table, to say nothing about hosting and running a game - its the DM's hosting rules. If someone wants to be digital, there are plenty of venues online for that. You sit at a table: no reason to have your phone out, tablet, laptop, e-readers, flash drives, scanners, mouse, keyboard...just your imagination and character sheets - and that's that how I roll (PUN!).
Absolutely no problem with 'my table my rules'. I DM more than play, myself. Just that stating it as the way everyone should play is a bit much.
Although it would be better for the environment, I really hope it will still be available in hardcover.
I just love books :) And it's easier for a first read through. Sure, digital is easier to look up at the game table, but otherwise its more difficult to learn.
Also, research suggest that your memory is better when you've read a text in a book, opposed to reading it on a screen. So, if you read it in a book, you are less likely in need to look it up in game, therefor you have a smoother game.
Another reason: I REALLY LIKE BOOKS
/wizard mode out
I think folks who like to read prefer the books, and the folks who want a quick reference prefer online formats; and you're right there is suggestive evidence that the same text in "book" form vs "web" formats are processed differently. Digital renditions that maintain the "bookish"s structure do encourage a pacing similar to physical books, but not perfectly. It's interesting stuff, and frankly I think says a lot about the ways folks think about information and what they think "knowing" is in contexts beyond just TTRPGs.
You know, you're not the only DM who invests time in their games, right?
I understand you think very highly of the games you run, and have expectations as to how players respect your conduct rules; but repeating what you already wrote in this discussion doesn't really address the arguments put against your stance. I guess that's how you roll (I also think I got a nat 20 in deja vu, or maybe it was a 1). But let's distill the objections to your stance and put it directly to your game in the form of a thought experiment, sort of a role playing exercise. A player shows up with a tablet. Says, "yeah, I just bring this, my folks and family go through so much toner for work and school, having the sheet on this is just easier and keeps our home office supply budget low. And frankly when I roll dice, especially in a group setting like table play, I have trouble doing the math and will usually add wrong, not to mention me flipping 6s and 9s by accident all the time. I'm just a disaster like that, and the funny thing is my misreading more often than not go against my favor. Doing numbers was a problem in school, still is, to be honest. So with this tablet here I have my D&D Beyond Character sheet, and if I need to roll, I just press or click on the section of the sheet that governs my roll and can even show it to my DM in a log sheet." There are a lot of people like that in the gaming community who are enabled by these technologies you hyperbolically distain. Are you going to kick that player from your table? I mean you do you, but there's sticking to principle and then there's being unaccommodating.
Like, do you even D&D Beyond, Bro? You know the pdf print outs are reputed to be seriously lacking in functionality when in comparison to the digital tool used as design (i.e. pop up spell description instead of having look through microfont before looking it up in a manual, etc.).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It could be, but in the versions we're getting now it really isn't. It's convenient that everything is in one big source, but that rarely matters to me at the game table: I have my character's mechanics in my charsheet as a player and my monster's/NPC's in their statblocks and that's where I'll reference them. The stuff I may need to look up during the game is things that aren't specific to anything so they likely aren't on any sheet, and DDB's search function isn't half as good for that as the index the books have. This digital implementation is at least in part based on WotC's requirements (no .pdfs) so I'm not pointing fingers to this site, just saying that for me the practical side isn't as clear-cut as that.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
But if you're working off your sheet in DDB, most of the stuff you're looking for you get the compendium description just by clicking for the feature or spell description via the sheet. In other words, it puts what you should know from the books for your character right there in the sheet.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.