Hold person and hold monster still require saving throws on subsequent turns. Banishment isn't super OP, as you still have to concentrate, and Banishing Smite exists.
And most creatures that have legendary resistance will have fairly high AC. There's no guarantee that you're going to hit.
Banishing Smite requires reducing the target below 50 hp, so anything you can banish with it is gonna die within the next round anyway, and depending on initiative order, quite possibly before it gets another action. Being paralyzed for even a single round is crazy powerful (all attacks have advantage, all melee attacks are critical hits?)
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
Hold person and hold monster still require saving throws on subsequent turns. Banishment isn't super OP, as you still have to concentrate, and Banishing Smite exists.
And most creatures that have legendary resistance will have fairly high AC. There's no guarantee that you're going to hit.
Banishing Smite requires reducing the target below 50 hp, so anything you can banish with it is gonna die within the next round anyway, and depending on initiative order, quite possibly before it gets another action. Being paralyzed for even a single round is crazy powerful (all attacks have advantage, all melee attacks are critical hits?)
Is it powerful? Yes, as it is supposed to be. Is it overpowered? I don't think so. You don't get banishment until level 13. Hold Monster doesn't come to you until level 17. You have to use your bonus action at these levels to cast either spell, get within melee weapon range, hit the creature. Sure, you can instantly paralyze any creature you hit (assuming they're not immune), but they still get to repeat the saving throw at the end of their turns.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Is it powerful? Yes, as it is supposed to be. Is it overpowered? I don't think so.
The spell doesn't actually get consumed until you successfully hit, so it's a bonus action for a 100% chance of paralysis for at least one round. Yes, that's overpowered.
Is it powerful? Yes, as it is supposed to be. Is it overpowered? I don't think so.
The spell doesn't actually get consumed until you successfully hit, so it's a bonus action for a 100% chance of paralysis for at least one round. Yes, that's overpowered.
Overpowered for level 17? Including all the limitations I've stated above? At that level other characters can do far more powerful things than that. Also, smite spells don't get consumed if you miss.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Overpowered for level 17? Including all the limitations I've stated above? At that level other characters can do far more powerful things than that. Also, smite spells don't get consumed if you miss.
At level 17 it's something that will be quite effective on level 20-30 targets, so yes, it is. Smite spells don't get consumed but also don't apply no save status effects.
Overpowered for level 17? Including all the limitations I've stated above? At that level other characters can do far more powerful things than that. Also, smite spells don't get consumed if you miss.
At level 17 it's something that will be quite effective on level 20-30 targets, so yes, it is. Smite spells don't get consumed but also don't apply no save status effects.
I don't know. I'll have to playtest this in order to know whether this is OP or not.
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Well, The Witch is the archetype of the stranger with candy that started out in fairy tales, able to charm children with gumdrop houses and all....
Sure but that is just deception. That doesn't mean her spells have to be bound to her personal interaction with others.
Why couldn't her powers be tied to her life force?
Their power could be derived through the "vital force" CON is considered to govern. And then we get into the breakdown over whether witchcraft magic is something akin to tapping into "natural" forces (ahem, like Druids who use WIS at the cusp of awareness and being) or powers some would call ... unnatural (leading more to something akin to Wizardry/Sorcery/Warlockdom and Clericism to an extent). I mean sure, you could have a CON based magic where the body is the conduit of the unnatural but CON traditionally in mechanics is the body _against_ that which is beyond nature. It's the mental attributes that have governed the use of magic, the "grit" one could associate with managing the primal energies some tropes of some iterations of witchcraft touch upon is a wobbler I'd say between CON and CHA. Bottom line, a CON witch could conceivably use INT and WIS as dump stats ... and that's just stupid (pardon, that's more a pun on unintended consequences of class design not the intention behind them to create something new for the game). I always think looking at the skills beyond the class feature serve as good guidance for developing a new class. There are no CON skills.
Watching this thread, I'm thinking more and more that the Witch is really too diffuse a concept to form the basis of a 5e class. Rather, I think witches would have a more dynamic (and if you want to go there, "accurate") rendering in 5e if you used Witch as a role flavor to be adopted by already existing magic users, including non full casters ... an oath of ancients paladin would be an excellent basis for a witch, as would vengeance to explore another trope, etc.
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
What's the reasoning for that when the only other casters that get their subclass at 3 are EK and AT? At any rate, flexing the spellcasting stat would still work since you'd have to plan ahead any way. I guess you could set prerequisites to be able to go into one of the subclasses to ensure a minimum level of spellcasting ability.
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
What's the reasoning for that when the only other casters that get their subclass at 3 are EK and AT? At any rate, flexing the spellcasting stat would still work since you'd have to plan ahead any way. I guess you could set prerequisites to be able to go into one of the subclasses to ensure a minimum level of spellcasting ability.
Actually, Druids and Wizards get there sub-classes at 2nd level and Bards get them at 3rd.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
What's the reasoning for that when the only other casters that get their subclass at 3 are EK and AT? At any rate, flexing the spellcasting stat would still work since you'd have to plan ahead any way. I guess you could set prerequisites to be able to go into one of the subclasses to ensure a minimum level of spellcasting ability.
Artificers get their subclass at level 3, as do bards, rangers, and paladins (granted, they are mostly half casters). I don't want to overcomplicate the class by having to do the spellcasting ability for each and every subclass. I think Intelligence is what I'm going to stick with for now, but that is not set in stone.
It's worth noting that depending on the way Spell Strike would end up working, the wording is 'automatically fails the saving throw'. Legendary resistance can still turn that into a success against a Spell Strike, and the whole "But PARALYSIS!" thing is an argument for the single-attack version of a Mage Knight. If one was using the skeleton I'd assembled, the Strike inflicts Hold Critter, but only after the attack resolves, meaning the character has already used their powerful attack for the turn and the absolute best they could do in terms of 'Auto Crit' would be an off-hand attack via two-weapon fighting. And if imbuing the spell takes a bonus action, they don't even get that.
Is forcing saves powerful? Yes. Thing is? This is "forcing" a save via a single melee attack that can still miss, which requires the Striker to get within arm's reach of a foe and deliver an attack the foe will likely know full well they should avoid. A wizard delivering the same spells can typically do so from a billion miles away and while the critter gets to try and make a save, it doesn't get to just outright avoid the effect in the first place by making the attack whiff.
It's worth noting that depending on the way Spell Strike would end up working, the wording is 'automatically fails the saving throw'. Legendary resistance can still turn that into a success against a Spell Strike, and the whole "But PARALYSIS!" thing is an argument for the single-attack version of a Mage Knight. If one was using the skeleton I'd assembled, the Strike inflicts Hold Critter, but only after the attack resolves, meaning the character has already used their powerful attack for the turn and the absolute best they could do in terms of 'Auto Crit' would be an off-hand attack via two-weapon fighting. And if imbuing the spell takes a bonus action, they don't even get that.
Is forcing saves powerful? Yes. Thing is? This is "forcing" a save via a single melee attack that can still miss, which requires the Striker to get within arm's reach of a foe and deliver an attack the foe will likely know full well they should avoid. A wizard delivering the same spells can typically do so from a billion miles away and while the critter gets to try and make a save, it doesn't get to just outright avoid the effect in the first place by making the attack whiff.
Thanks. I hope that clears that up.
Also, the magus I'm making still gets extra attack, just because all martial half-casters get it.
Quick question to those helping with the Witch. Should it be Charisma or Intelligence based? I'm leaning towards Charisma.
Witches aren't traditionally charismatic. They are either loners or part of a coven. Neither sounds like charisma.
What if they are Constitution based?
I am currently going with Intelligence.
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
What's the reasoning for that when the only other casters that get their subclass at 3 are EK and AT? At any rate, flexing the spellcasting stat would still work since you'd have to plan ahead any way. I guess you could set prerequisites to be able to go into one of the subclasses to ensure a minimum level of spellcasting ability.
Actually, Druids and Wizards get there sub-classes at 2nd level and Bards get them at 3rd.
I'd forgot about bards. Druids and wizards getting their subclasses at 2nd is not them getting it at 3rd level. It's a null point anyway because I was thinking of spellcasting for less than full casters, which clearly is not always tied to subclasses.
Here, Witch class. Hopefully this will get you guys to stop saying that it's not necessary.
The Witch
Wrapped in a dark, shadowy cloak that are an emblem of his dark power, a shadar-kai steps forward out of the alleyway. Her right hand fiddles with a crystal ball covered in arcane symbols, while her irises flash greenish-yellow. In her left hand is a shiny steel dagger, dripping with blood. Murmuring a dark incantation, she points the crystal ball at a knight, causing him to collapse to the floor, screaming in pain.
A noble sits by a mirror, getting ready for a party hosted by him in his home. Looking in the mirror he straightens his dress coat, and sees something flash in the mirror, the eye of humanoid creature. He stumbles back and yelps, turning back towards the looking glass, seeing nothing. Though the eye is gone, he still feels something strange, a tingling icy sensations, as if he's being watched.
Within a dark cave, a coven of witches gathers around a glowing green cauldron, chanting words in Infernal. As they channel their magic together, one witch adds the last ingredient to the mixture, the tentacle of an illithid. The water hisses, dissolving the last unearthly addition, and a small creature climbs out of the cauldron, and then another, and another. Three familiars leap out of the boiling mixture, coiling themselves around the shoulder of their mistress.
Witches are masters of dark magic, exemplars of unearthly power, channeling their magic through trinkets and gross items. The class, like the wizard, channels their magic from the weave of magic that covers the multiverse, but instead of using a vast variety of arcane spells for utility and combat purposes, the witch focuses on the darker, taboo side of magic. They can spy on enemies with scrying spells, curse them with hexes, jinxes, and other dark magic, as well as using blood and bones to fuel and focus their spells.
Witch
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Witchcraft
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2nd
+2
Magic Jinx
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
3rd
+2
Coven Magic, Dark Line
4
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
5th
+3
─
4
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
6th
+3
Recycle Spells
4
4
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
7th
+3
Dark Line feature
4
4
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
9th
+4
─
4
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
10th
+4
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
11th
+4
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
13th
+5
─
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
14th
+5
Improved Coven Magic
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
15th
+5
Dark Line feature
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
—
17th
+6
Magic Jinx Improvement
5
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18th
+6
─
5
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
19th
+6
Unearthly Powers
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
20th
+6
Dark Mage
5
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
Class Features
As a witch, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per witch level Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per witch level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
any simple weapon of your choice
(a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Witch table.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 witch spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Witch table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. You prepare the list of witch spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the witch spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of witch spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of witch spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your witch spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a witch spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an artificer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a witch spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Witch Spell List
Here's the list of spells you consult when you learn a witch spell. The list is organized by spell level, not character level.
These spells are from the Player's Handbook and Xanathar's Guide to Everything
Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash chill touch dancing lights friends infestation light mage hand mending message minor illusion poison spray primal savagery thorn whip toll the dead
1st Level
armor of agathys cause fear charm person command comprehend languages detect magic disguise self dissonant whispers faerie fire false life feather fall hellish rebuke hex identify inflict wounds jump longstrider mage armor protection from evil and good ray of sickness silent image sleep speak with animals tasha's hideous laughter unseen servant witch bolt
2nd Level
alter self animal messenger blindness/deafness blur cloud of daggers continual flame crown of madness darkness darkvision detect thoughts earthbind enhance ability enthrall heat metal hold person invisibility levitate locate object magic mouth melf's acid arrow misty step phantasmal force ray of enfeeblement rope trick scorching ray see invisibility shadow blade skywrite spider climb suggestion web
3rd Level
bestow curse blink clairvoyance counterspell dispell magic fear feign death fly glyph of warding haste hypnotic pattern leomund's tiny hut life transference magic circle major image nondetection phantom steed remove curse sending slow speak with dead spirit guardians stinking cloud summon lesser demons tongues vampiric touch
animate objects antilife shell awaken cloudkill contact other plane contagion dominate person dream enervation far step geas hold monster infernal calling insect plague legend lore mislead modify memory negative energy flood planar binding rary's telepathic bond scrying seeming teleportation circle
6th Level
circle of death conjure fey create homunculus disintegrate eyebite flesh to stone harm magic jar mass suggestion mental prison otto's irresistible dance programmed illusion soul cage true seeing wall of thorns
7th Level
etherealness finger of death mirage arcane mordenkainen's magnificent mansion plane shift project image sequester simulacrum symbol
8th Level
abi-dalzim's horrid wilting antimagic field antipathy/sympathy clone demiplane dominate monster feeblemind glibness illusory dragon maddening darkness maze mind blank power word stun
9th Level
foresight gate imprisonment mass polymorph power word kill psychic scream true polymorph weird wish
Witchcraft
As a practitioner of witch magic and dark spells, you are adept at focusing your magical powers to shape the environment around you. As an action while holding a spellcasting focus, you can cause one of the following magical effects of your choice to immediately happen:
You create an instantaneous, harmless eerie effect on a creature you can see within 10 feet, strong enough to be noticeable, but not strong enough to cause any damage or condition. This effect could be a shiver down their back, a slight headache, a piercing pain in a part of their body of your choice, a slight tingling sensation, or a slight increase or decrease in temperature.
You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire within 10 feet of you.
You instantly soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot within 10 feet of you.
You make a symbol, up to 10 words of text, or simple drawing appear on an object or surface within 10 feet of you for the next hour or until you dismiss it at any point (no action required).
You open or close an unlocked door, window, or shutter within 10 feet of you.
You alter the appearance of your eyes, hair, or one piece of clothing on you for the next hour or until you dismiss this change at any point (no action required).
Magic Jinx
Starting at 2nd level, you gain access to a set of curses that you can set on creatures to cause harmful effects. At this level, choose 2 jinxes from the list below, which you know. At level 10 and level 17, you may choose another jinx. You can use a jinx you know once, regaining the ability to use all of your used jinxes at the end of a long rest. You may use a jinx when you hit a creature with an attack or when they fail a saving throw against a spell you cast, but may only use one jinx a turn.
Jinx of Obscuring
The target becomes blinded or deafened (your choice), and remains that way for the next minute. The creature may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Immobility
The targets speeds become 0, and it cannot be increased in any way for the next minute. The creature may make a Strength saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Stupidity
The target must target the closest creature to it with its attacks and other harmful effects. The creature may make an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of the Cowardly
The target is frightened by you, and must use all of its movement moving directly away from you on their turns. The creature may make a Charisma saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Enfeebling
The target has disadvantage on all attack rolls and it has disadvantage on Strength checks. The creature may make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Jinx of Clumsiness
The target has disadvantage on all Dexterity saving throws and all attack rolls made against it have advantage. The creature may make a Dexterity saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending this effect on a success.
Coven Magic
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. During a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
Dark Line
At 3rd level, you choose your favored source of magic. Up until this point, you were harnessing your magic from the general dark powers that lurk in the multiverse, but now you can focus on one specific archetype of dark magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Magic, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 3rd level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Recycle Spells
At level 6, you can harness the lingering magic of spells you cast that fail. When you cast a spell and miss with an attack roll for a spell of 2nd-level or higher you cast on another creature that they succeed on the saving throw for or you miss with the attack roll for the spell, you may choose to cause the spell to have no effect if it would have done any damage or any other effect. When you do so, you can regain a spell slot of the spell's level or lower.
Int and Charisma are both weak saves, classes normally grant one weak and one strong (con, dex, wis) save.
Personally I would like the class to put more focus on the Jinx feature, since this is really unique and only two of them per rest is a bit disappointing. The feature itself sounds great, though. :-)
Coven Magic is a bit weak, you're just shifting slots around and the current wording "during a short or long rest .... until he finishes a long rest" could be understood to allow the new spell slot only during the rest itself.
If the ritual allowed to store specific spells in other creatures that can then use the spell anytime they want it would be an awesome feature. Maybe something like "spells with a combined level up to your intelligence modifier*. I've played in a PF campaign where the goat pet of a witch we were fighting turned out to be more dangerous than the witch... casting fear and other spells on us nobody expected.
That said the whole "sharing" spell slots doesn't sound like Covens as presented in the rules. A coven of hags gains access to spells beyond the power of a single hag, which I feel would be a really unique feature.
Maybe like this:
Coven Magic. Beginning at third level you have mastered the art of ritual magic to the point where you can lead a coven ritual. If two other people capable of spellcasting join you in a ten minute ritual, you and the other participants can combine their power to achieve effects normally beyond your limits. Each of the participants expends a spell slot. Add the level of each expended slot together and half the result (round down). Then pick any spell of the resulting level or less from the spell list of a participant and cast it as normal. The participant doesn't have to know the spell or have it prepared for this to work, they only must be vaguely aware that a spell like this exists while you combine your experience to figure out how to shape it. You can use this feature once and regain the ability to do so during the next full moon. Or the next long rest, which is probably mechanically a better fit but less flavourful.
Bur really: great work and thank you for this. :-) I can't wait to read the subclasses. :-)
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Banishing Smite requires reducing the target below 50 hp, so anything you can banish with it is gonna die within the next round anyway, and depending on initiative order, quite possibly before it gets another action. Being paralyzed for even a single round is crazy powerful (all attacks have advantage, all melee attacks are critical hits?)
I think an argument could be made for any of the mental stats to work for a witch, as well as Constitution. Still, Intelligence isn’t a bad stat to use for a Witch I feel.
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Why not have it flex based off of subclass? Blood magic Witch uses constitution, wiccan uses wisdom, etc.
Is it powerful? Yes, as it is supposed to be. Is it overpowered? I don't think so. You don't get banishment until level 13. Hold Monster doesn't come to you until level 17. You have to use your bonus action at these levels to cast either spell, get within melee weapon range, hit the creature. Sure, you can instantly paralyze any creature you hit (assuming they're not immune), but they still get to repeat the saving throw at the end of their turns.
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I'm having their subclass be at level 3, so that wouldn't work for my current witch class.
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The spell doesn't actually get consumed until you successfully hit, so it's a bonus action for a 100% chance of paralysis for at least one round. Yes, that's overpowered.
Overpowered for level 17? Including all the limitations I've stated above? At that level other characters can do far more powerful things than that. Also, smite spells don't get consumed if you miss.
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At level 17 it's something that will be quite effective on level 20-30 targets, so yes, it is. Smite spells don't get consumed but also don't apply no save status effects.
It doesn’t matter what level it is, unless your spells don’t scale, which they have to in 5e
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I don't know. I'll have to playtest this in order to know whether this is OP or not.
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Their power could be derived through the "vital force" CON is considered to govern. And then we get into the breakdown over whether witchcraft magic is something akin to tapping into "natural" forces (ahem, like Druids who use WIS at the cusp of awareness and being) or powers some would call ... unnatural (leading more to something akin to Wizardry/Sorcery/Warlockdom and Clericism to an extent). I mean sure, you could have a CON based magic where the body is the conduit of the unnatural but CON traditionally in mechanics is the body _against_ that which is beyond nature. It's the mental attributes that have governed the use of magic, the "grit" one could associate with managing the primal energies some tropes of some iterations of witchcraft touch upon is a wobbler I'd say between CON and CHA. Bottom line, a CON witch could conceivably use INT and WIS as dump stats ... and that's just stupid (pardon, that's more a pun on unintended consequences of class design not the intention behind them to create something new for the game). I always think looking at the skills beyond the class feature serve as good guidance for developing a new class. There are no CON skills.
Watching this thread, I'm thinking more and more that the Witch is really too diffuse a concept to form the basis of a 5e class. Rather, I think witches would have a more dynamic (and if you want to go there, "accurate") rendering in 5e if you used Witch as a role flavor to be adopted by already existing magic users, including non full casters ... an oath of ancients paladin would be an excellent basis for a witch, as would vengeance to explore another trope, etc.
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What's the reasoning for that when the only other casters that get their subclass at 3 are EK and AT? At any rate, flexing the spellcasting stat would still work since you'd have to plan ahead any way. I guess you could set prerequisites to be able to go into one of the subclasses to ensure a minimum level of spellcasting ability.
Actually, Druids and Wizards get there sub-classes at 2nd level and Bards get them at 3rd.
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Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Artificers get their subclass at level 3, as do bards, rangers, and paladins (granted, they are mostly half casters). I don't want to overcomplicate the class by having to do the spellcasting ability for each and every subclass. I think Intelligence is what I'm going to stick with for now, but that is not set in stone.
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It's worth noting that depending on the way Spell Strike would end up working, the wording is 'automatically fails the saving throw'. Legendary resistance can still turn that into a success against a Spell Strike, and the whole "But PARALYSIS!" thing is an argument for the single-attack version of a Mage Knight. If one was using the skeleton I'd assembled, the Strike inflicts Hold Critter, but only after the attack resolves, meaning the character has already used their powerful attack for the turn and the absolute best they could do in terms of 'Auto Crit' would be an off-hand attack via two-weapon fighting. And if imbuing the spell takes a bonus action, they don't even get that.
Is forcing saves powerful? Yes. Thing is? This is "forcing" a save via a single melee attack that can still miss, which requires the Striker to get within arm's reach of a foe and deliver an attack the foe will likely know full well they should avoid. A wizard delivering the same spells can typically do so from a billion miles away and while the critter gets to try and make a save, it doesn't get to just outright avoid the effect in the first place by making the attack whiff.
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Thanks. I hope that clears that up.
Also, the magus I'm making still gets extra attack, just because all martial half-casters get it.
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I'd forgot about bards. Druids and wizards getting their subclasses at 2nd is not them getting it at 3rd level. It's a null point anyway because I was thinking of spellcasting for less than full casters, which clearly is not always tied to subclasses.
Here, Witch class. Hopefully this will get you guys to stop saying that it's not necessary.
Okay, that's the current class layout.
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Any thoughts?
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Int and Charisma are both weak saves, classes normally grant one weak and one strong (con, dex, wis) save.
Personally I would like the class to put more focus on the Jinx feature, since this is really unique and only two of them per rest is a bit disappointing. The feature itself sounds great, though. :-)
Coven Magic is a bit weak, you're just shifting slots around and the current wording "during a short or long rest .... until he finishes a long rest" could be understood to allow the new spell slot only during the rest itself.
If the ritual allowed to store specific spells in other creatures that can then use the spell anytime they want it would be an awesome feature. Maybe something like "spells with a combined level up to your intelligence modifier*. I've played in a PF campaign where the goat pet of a witch we were fighting turned out to be more dangerous than the witch... casting fear and other spells on us nobody expected.
That said the whole "sharing" spell slots doesn't sound like Covens as presented in the rules. A coven of hags gains access to spells beyond the power of a single hag, which I feel would be a really unique feature.
Maybe like this:
Coven Magic. Beginning at third level you have mastered the art of ritual magic to the point where you can lead a coven ritual. If two other people capable of spellcasting join you in a ten minute ritual, you and the other participants can combine their power to achieve effects normally beyond your limits. Each of the participants expends a spell slot. Add the level of each expended slot together and half the result (round down). Then pick any spell of the resulting level or less from the spell list of a participant and cast it as normal. The participant doesn't have to know the spell or have it prepared for this to work, they only must be vaguely aware that a spell like this exists while you combine your experience to figure out how to shape it. You can use this feature once and regain the ability to do so during the next full moon. Or the next long rest, which is probably mechanically a better fit but less flavourful.
Bur really: great work and thank you for this. :-) I can't wait to read the subclasses. :-)