We're now 6 years into 5E's development, and one glaring difference which has become clear compared to prior editions is the lack of new classes. In 6 years just one new class, the artificer, has been released. Signs are now pointing to the mystic/psion class being scrapped on top of this and it's seeming highly likely that 5E will not receive another full class in its lifecycle.
What are peoples opinions of this? Are there new classes people want to see implemented with their own mechanics? Or is everyone happy to stick with the current lineup indefinitely? Or would you even want certain classes removed from the current roster?
Personally I find it frustrating, as some of my favourites never made the leap to 5e. Certain subclasses embody their flavor, but their mechanics no longer exist.
The focus has definitely been on subclasses, although artificer is a fairly new full class.
Yeah it really has. I wouldn't mind this so much if subclasses provided more gameplay change, and were able to overwrite base class features.
e.g. A magus class being a fighter subclass, but replacing some fighter features like two of the extra attacks and action surge with spellstrike and arcane half casting. Or a witch subclass for warlock replacing invocations with a list of hexes and curses.
The real question is, what would a new class do that isn't already there? For the magus, you basically just described an arcane paladin. Heck, you could easily do it as a multiclass of Eldritch knight and wizard/artificer. Likewise, warlock can already focus on hexes and curses. You're describing a spell selection, at most some new invocations, not a new class.
The real question is, what would a new class do that isn't already there? For the magus, you basically just described an arcane paladin. Heck, you could easily do it as a multiclass of Eldritch knight and wizard/artificer. Likewise, warlock can already focus on hexes and curses. You're describing a spell selection, at most some new invocations, not a new class.
The thing is a paladin isn't arcane. It comes with a ton of divine/healing type/radiant damage focus. Eldritch Knight is only a 1/3 caster. Artificer forces half the class to be focused on tinkering/that robot dog.
And none of these classes have the spellstrike mechanic which was so fun in 3e and pathfinder.
I'm not saying there are no gish options. There are a ton of gish options. But they lack the mechanics of prior classes which were fun.
We have a ton of divine options too. There is war cleric. Cleric/fighter multiclass. Celestial Bladelock. Zealot barbarian. Divine soul sorcerer. Sun soul monk. Does this mean that paladin is redundant too? Could it be relegated to a subclass instead?
It doesn't. Because paladin has a unique mechanic (smite) which makes the class play in its own way and enjoyable.
The real question is, what would a new class do that isn't already there? For the magus, you basically just described an arcane paladin. Heck, you could easily do it as a multiclass of Eldritch knight and wizard/artificer. Likewise, warlock can already focus on hexes and curses. You're describing a spell selection, at most some new invocations, not a new class.
The thing is a paladin isn't arcane. It comes with a ton of divine/healing type/radiant damage focus. Eldritch Knight is only a 1/3 caster. Artificer forces half the class to be focused on tinkering/that robot dog.
And none of these classes have the spellstrike mechanic which was so fun in 3e and pathfinder.
I'm not saying there are no gish options. There are a ton of gish options. But they lack the mechanics of prior classes which were fun.
We have a ton of divine options too. There is war cleric. Cleric/fighter multiclass. Celestial Bladelock. Zealot barbarian. Divine soul sorcerer. Sun soul monk. Does this mean that paladin is redundant too? Could it be relegated to a subclass instead?
It doesn't. Because paladin has a unique mechanic (smite) which makes the class play in its own way and enjoyable.
But they could easily release a subclass that reflavoured paladin to be arcane (Look at Third_Sundering's Arcane paladin).
also, have you heard of a bladesinger? And the cantrips booming and greenflame blade? they pretty aptly fit your description.
Personally, I would like some new classes that are nothing like any other classes, Like a non spell support class (Battle strategist anyone?) or a proper elementalist (Looking at you four elements monk)
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Yeah I'm not really seeing why WotC should expend the resources to develop new classes at this point. Even teasing the mystic was a PR nightmare, and it was lousy.
Not to knock the whole thread off track, but although I was never opposed to a psionics full class in general, it never really seemed worth the effort to develop another Int full caster when we already have one, and when fans never had a set of consistent demands in the first place beyond "pSiOnIcS iS dIfFeRrEnT!1!" in vacuous ways. I suppose the only thing I really wanted to see from it was a "psionic focus" mechanic to expand concentration, but that was basically jettisoned after the first round of UA, and could easily be taken up by subclasses.
I mean, what other classes do people demand? A half-caster fighter just seems like it'd be better served as a bladesinger or EK. Besides, you can mimic half-caster fighter by literally just multiclassing fighter/wizard or sorcerer. And I'm not really sure what spellstrike means, but it sounds like the EK 7th-level feature.
Beyond those, there isn't much room for a full class balance-wise. Again, it just doesn't seem worth the expenditure of time and resources on the part of WotC to be making arbitrary gish classes. On the other hand, I have no problem with them expanding the number of subclasses to the heart's content.
I would say that an Elementalist and Psion could work off of the same Core Class mechanics with the Subclasses being focused on a particular Power/Element. Of course the trick is developing the mechanic that would work well for the largest number of people.
Spellstrike is literally being able to put spells on your weapon, and apply the spell effect when your weapon attack hits. It worked quite differently to the EK 7th level feature. There was a decent array of spells you could do it with, not just two badly balanced scagtrips. Additionally it was a core class feature got in the first couple of levels. Like rage, divine smite, sneak attack, or spellcasting.
Also the 'you can just go wizard fighter multiclass' just applies to paladin too. Any argument against magus can be applied directly to paladin. Why is paladin needed when you can just go half cleric half fighter? It's divine, it has some healing, it can fight in combat.
I would say that an Elementalist and Psion could work off of the same Core Class mechanics with the Subclasses being focused on a particular Power/Element. Of course the trick is developing the mechanic that would work well for the largest number of people.
Yurei’s right, that Psi Die was really well conceived. But people’s kneejerk reaction was negative, and WotC didn’t even give the ink time to dry before they opened the survey, so people never had a chance to really give it a try.
If they had, I guarantee that the feedback would have been less skewed. The only thing really wrong with it is that since it was a subclass feature, there wasn’t enough to do with it. If it had been its own class, with a broader range of available applications, it would have really shined.
Spellstrike is literally being able to put spells on your weapon, and apply the spell effect when your weapon attack hits. It worked quite differently to the EK 7th level feature. There was a decent array of spells you could do it with, not just two badly balanced scagtrips. Additionally it was a core class feature got in the first couple of levels. Like rage, divine smite, sneak attack, or spellcasting.
Also the 'you can just go wizard fighter multiclass' just applies to paladin too. Any argument against magus can be applied directly to paladin. Why is paladin needed when you can just go half cleric half fighter? It's divine, it has some healing, it can fight in combat.
That sounds unbalanced. The reason the 7th-level EK feature is weaker because it's balanced not to allow an EK to attack and cast a full power spell in each round. If you don't like that approach, it seems relatively straightforward to homebrew a variant subclass that allows the EK to cast higher-level spells with an attack less often. Or alternatively, do so for the bladesinger/war magic wizard. It just doesn't seem to demand a class.
But sure, this criticism does apply to the paladin. So? The paladin exists. We're discussing what happens moving forward.
Yurei’s right, that Psi Die was really well conceived. But people’s kneejerk reaction was negative, and WotC didn’t even give the ink time to dry before they opened the survey, so people never had a chance to really give it a try.
If they had, I guarantee that the feedback would have been less skewed. The only thing really wrong with it is that since it was a subclass feature, there wasn’t enough to do with it. If it had been its own class, with a broader range of available applications, it would have really shined.
I thought the psi die was okay. I like dice pools in principle, but I found that it would make me, a risk-averse player, less likely to use my abilities. I'm more happy using abilities when I know I can use them a number of times. That lack of control made me feel a bit odd about playing a character that is allegedly in control of their psionic power. On the other hand, as it was written, it would have been a great fit for a wilder (barbarian sub?).
"Just homebrew it, bro" is a bad response to any sort of argument; anyone talking about the direction of the game going forward clearly has reasons that 'just homebrew it, bro' isn't good enough.
Furthermore, subclasses as the Answer To All Things tend to suck. For one, the Eldritch Knight is objectively awful. it's a crying shame because magical warriors enhancing their martial abilities with arcane power should be awesome, but the EK is just objectively a badly designed subclass with very limited utility whose best options in a fight are typically to ignore their magical abilities altogether.
For two, bringing back old classes as subclasses for vaguely related 5e base classes usually works poorly for both the 5e base class and the old subclass. Bladesingers apparently used to be elven swordsman who didn't even really use magic - their 'bladesong' was a martial technique that did martial things. From what I've heard at least, wasn't around for it. Bladesinger as a wizard subclass means that first, you're trying to be a wizard in melee combat. LOLshuur, good luck buddy. And second of all, it means whatever the old Bladesinger did it's not allowed to do anymore, because now it has to be a wizard with a weird sword fetish. The wizard base class does not benefit from anything the Bladesinger does outside munchkin tom****ery with AC abuse, and the Bladesinger as an idea just doesn't really work as a wizard.
Base classes are difficult to build and get right, correct. The answer should not be "let's release forty poorly designed subclasses a year and trade Class Bloat for Subclass Bloat", though.
I would say that an Elementalist and Psion could work off of the same Core Class mechanics with the Subclasses being focused on a particular Power/Element. Of course the trick is developing the mechanic that would work well for the largest number of people.
Yurei’s right, that Psi Die was really well conceived. But people’s kneejerk reaction was negative, and WotC didn’t even give the ink time to dry before they opened the survey, so people never had a chance to really give it a try.
If they had, I guarantee that the feedback would have been less skewed. The only thing really wrong with it is that since it was a subclass feature, there wasn’t enough to do with it. If it had been its own class, with a broader range of available applications, it would have really shined.
I agree. They should have run it as a full class with features that keyed off of it. I thought it was a good starting point towards something new and worthwhile.
I've got to disagree with the EK being a bad subclass in itself. Imo it's a great subclass if you go in knowing what to expect.
It's a full fighter with a couple of weak spells for support. People are hating it because they go in wanting a magus, which it isn't, and so fails to live up to the expectations people are asking of it.
Spellstrike is literally being able to put spells on your weapon, and apply the spell effect when your weapon attack hits. It worked quite differently to the EK 7th level feature. There was a decent array of spells you could do it with, not just two badly balanced scagtrips. Additionally it was a core class feature got in the first couple of levels. Like rage, divine smite, sneak attack, or spellcasting.
Also the 'you can just go wizard fighter multiclass' just applies to paladin too. Any argument against magus can be applied directly to paladin. Why is paladin needed when you can just go half cleric half fighter? It's divine, it has some healing, it can fight in combat.
That sounds unbalanced. The reason the 7th-level EK feature is weaker because it's balanced not to allow an EK to attack and cast a full power spell in each round. If you don't like that approach, it seems relatively straightforward to homebrew a variant subclass that allows the EK to cast higher-level spells with an attack less often. Or alternatively, do so for the bladesinger/war magic wizard. It just doesn't seem to demand a class.
But sure, this criticism does apply to the paladin. So? The paladin exists. We're discussing what happens moving forward.
Yurei’s right, that Psi Die was really well conceived. But people’s kneejerk reaction was negative, and WotC didn’t even give the ink time to dry before they opened the survey, so people never had a chance to really give it a try.
If they had, I guarantee that the feedback would have been less skewed. The only thing really wrong with it is that since it was a subclass feature, there wasn’t enough to do with it. If it had been its own class, with a broader range of available applications, it would have really shined.
I thought the psi die was okay. I like dice pools in principle, but I found that it would make me, a risk-averse player, less likely to use my abilities. I'm more happy using abilities when I know I can use them a number of times. That lack of control made me feel a bit odd about playing a character that is allegedly in control of their psionic power. On the other hand, as it was written, it would have been a great fit for a wilder (barbarian sub?).
The ability to cast a spell and then attack as a bonus action exists in the form of EK18 Improved War Magic. How much overlap between spellstrike and EK18? You could have it be a feature that triggers a number of times equal to your spell casting modifier or 1/3 of your class levels +1.
How close is it to the Smite spells?
The fact that something similar exists shouldn't necessarily prevent something else from approaching that same concept. The fact that a multiclass can reach the vicinity doesn't mean that the idea doesn't have merit as it's own class. But you would need some design space around a general class conside concept to merit a new class. What would the core concept be and what would the subclass concepts be?
"Just homebrew it, bro" is a bad response to any sort of argument; anyone talking about the direction of the game going forward clearly has reasons that 'just homebrew it, bro' isn't good enough.
Furthermore, subclasses as the Answer To All Things tend to suck. For one, the Eldritch Knight is objectively awful. it's a crying shame because magical warriors enhancing their martial abilities with arcane power should be awesome, but the EK is just objectively a badly designed subclass with very limited utility whose best options in a fight are typically to ignore their magical abilities altogether.
For two, bringing back old classes as subclasses for vaguely related 5e base classes usually works poorly for both the 5e base class and the old subclass. Bladesingers apparently used to be elven swordsman who didn't even really use magic - their 'bladesong' was a martial technique that did martial things. From what I've heard at least, wasn't around for it. Bladesinger as a wizard subclass means that first, you're trying to be a wizard in melee combat. LOLshuur, good luck buddy. And second of all, it means whatever the old Bladesinger did it's not allowed to do anymore, because now it has to be a wizard with a weird sword fetish. The wizard base class does not benefit from anything the Bladesinger does outside munchkin tom****ery with AC abuse, and the Bladesinger as an idea just doesn't really work as a wizard.
Base classes are difficult to build and get right, correct. The answer should not be "let's release forty poorly designed subclasses a year and trade Class Bloat for Subclass Bloat", though.
You didn't really read my response. I'm not saying "homebrew it bro" in response to the pathos of creating gish stuff, just to say that what's being asked ("spellstrike") can be done with a subclass, properly designed. If you'd like, reread my comment as "demand that WotC release another version of the EK" or whatever.
But I agree with you that bringing back 3e classes as subclasses is mostly a fool's errand because 3e classes were poorly designed in general. Believe me, I know because I've tried. So yeah, you're not going to find a good analogue to the 3e spellsword or 4e swordmage or whatever in 5e because those classes were busted from the get-go. And since the devs in 5e at least pay lip service to balance, you're not going to get a heavily-armored caster that can cast high-level spells and attack in the same round without serious costs, class or subclass. So that the EK is a crying shame is testament to the difficulty of creating a balanced gish in 5e, full stop. To put it another way, would the EK recast as a class be able to simultaneously be balanced and be able to hit those "awesome magical warrior" chords? Doubtful.
Your last comment is a straw man. Nobody wants poorly-designed anything. However, even in a worst-timeline bloated 5e hellscape, subclasses would be easier to manage than classes when it comes to broken mechanics. You cannot multi-subclass, for measure, so forty poorly designed subclasses don't present as many free variables as an equal number of classes.
To be fair, the Profane Soul Blood Hunter is a much better spellsword-type character than the Eldritch Knight is. It blends weapon strikes and arcane casting more easily and smoothly. Mostly by sacrificing some of the Fighter's overt fighter-ness in exchange for magical strength. If Mercer can do it, so can Wizards.
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We're now 6 years into 5E's development, and one glaring difference which has become clear compared to prior editions is the lack of new classes. In 6 years just one new class, the artificer, has been released. Signs are now pointing to the mystic/psion class being scrapped on top of this and it's seeming highly likely that 5E will not receive another full class in its lifecycle.
What are peoples opinions of this? Are there new classes people want to see implemented with their own mechanics? Or is everyone happy to stick with the current lineup indefinitely? Or would you even want certain classes removed from the current roster?
Personally I find it frustrating, as some of my favourites never made the leap to 5e. Certain subclasses embody their flavor, but their mechanics no longer exist.
The focus has definitely been on subclasses, although artificer is a fairly new full class.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think other than a psionic class / rules, which would be a big undertaking, there are enough as is.
Especially since the new book looks like it will have ways to further customize existing classes beyond just subclasses.
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A full Psionicist would have been nice. But alas... it is not to be. 😞
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Yeah it really has. I wouldn't mind this so much if subclasses provided more gameplay change, and were able to overwrite base class features.
e.g. A magus class being a fighter subclass, but replacing some fighter features like two of the extra attacks and action surge with spellstrike and arcane half casting. Or a witch subclass for warlock replacing invocations with a list of hexes and curses.
The real question is, what would a new class do that isn't already there? For the magus, you basically just described an arcane paladin. Heck, you could easily do it as a multiclass of Eldritch knight and wizard/artificer. Likewise, warlock can already focus on hexes and curses. You're describing a spell selection, at most some new invocations, not a new class.
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The thing is a paladin isn't arcane. It comes with a ton of divine/healing type/radiant damage focus. Eldritch Knight is only a 1/3 caster. Artificer forces half the class to be focused on tinkering/that robot dog.
And none of these classes have the spellstrike mechanic which was so fun in 3e and pathfinder.
I'm not saying there are no gish options. There are a ton of gish options. But they lack the mechanics of prior classes which were fun.
We have a ton of divine options too. There is war cleric. Cleric/fighter multiclass. Celestial Bladelock. Zealot barbarian. Divine soul sorcerer. Sun soul monk. Does this mean that paladin is redundant too? Could it be relegated to a subclass instead?
It doesn't. Because paladin has a unique mechanic (smite) which makes the class play in its own way and enjoyable.
But they could easily release a subclass that reflavoured paladin to be arcane (Look at Third_Sundering's Arcane paladin).
also, have you heard of a bladesinger? And the cantrips booming and greenflame blade? they pretty aptly fit your description.
Personally, I would like some new classes that are nothing like any other classes, Like a non spell support class (Battle strategist anyone?) or a proper elementalist (Looking at you four elements monk)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yeah I'm not really seeing why WotC should expend the resources to develop new classes at this point. Even teasing the mystic was a PR nightmare, and it was lousy.
Not to knock the whole thread off track, but although I was never opposed to a psionics full class in general, it never really seemed worth the effort to develop another Int full caster when we already have one, and when fans never had a set of consistent demands in the first place beyond "pSiOnIcS iS dIfFeRrEnT!1!" in vacuous ways. I suppose the only thing I really wanted to see from it was a "psionic focus" mechanic to expand concentration, but that was basically jettisoned after the first round of UA, and could easily be taken up by subclasses.
I mean, what other classes do people demand? A half-caster fighter just seems like it'd be better served as a bladesinger or EK. Besides, you can mimic half-caster fighter by literally just multiclassing fighter/wizard or sorcerer. And I'm not really sure what spellstrike means, but it sounds like the EK 7th-level feature.
Beyond those, there isn't much room for a full class balance-wise. Again, it just doesn't seem worth the expenditure of time and resources on the part of WotC to be making arbitrary gish classes. On the other hand, I have no problem with them expanding the number of subclasses to the heart's content.
I would say that an Elementalist and Psion could work off of the same Core Class mechanics with the Subclasses being focused on a particular Power/Element. Of course the trick is developing the mechanic that would work well for the largest number of people.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Spellstrike is literally being able to put spells on your weapon, and apply the spell effect when your weapon attack hits. It worked quite differently to the EK 7th level feature. There was a decent array of spells you could do it with, not just two badly balanced scagtrips. Additionally it was a core class feature got in the first couple of levels. Like rage, divine smite, sneak attack, or spellcasting.
Also the 'you can just go wizard fighter multiclass' just applies to paladin too. Any argument against magus can be applied directly to paladin. Why is paladin needed when you can just go half cleric half fighter? It's divine, it has some healing, it can fight in combat.
Yurei’s right, that Psi Die was really well conceived. But people’s kneejerk reaction was negative, and WotC didn’t even give the ink time to dry before they opened the survey, so people never had a chance to really give it a try.
If they had, I guarantee that the feedback would have been less skewed. The only thing really wrong with it is that since it was a subclass feature, there wasn’t enough to do with it. If it had been its own class, with a broader range of available applications, it would have really shined.
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That sounds unbalanced. The reason the 7th-level EK feature is weaker because it's balanced not to allow an EK to attack and cast a full power spell in each round. If you don't like that approach, it seems relatively straightforward to homebrew a variant subclass that allows the EK to cast higher-level spells with an attack less often. Or alternatively, do so for the bladesinger/war magic wizard. It just doesn't seem to demand a class.
But sure, this criticism does apply to the paladin. So? The paladin exists. We're discussing what happens moving forward.
I thought the psi die was okay. I like dice pools in principle, but I found that it would make me, a risk-averse player, less likely to use my abilities. I'm more happy using abilities when I know I can use them a number of times. That lack of control made me feel a bit odd about playing a character that is allegedly in control of their psionic power. On the other hand, as it was written, it would have been a great fit for a wilder (barbarian sub?).
"Just homebrew it, bro" is a bad response to any sort of argument; anyone talking about the direction of the game going forward clearly has reasons that 'just homebrew it, bro' isn't good enough.
Furthermore, subclasses as the Answer To All Things tend to suck. For one, the Eldritch Knight is objectively awful. it's a crying shame because magical warriors enhancing their martial abilities with arcane power should be awesome, but the EK is just objectively a badly designed subclass with very limited utility whose best options in a fight are typically to ignore their magical abilities altogether.
For two, bringing back old classes as subclasses for vaguely related 5e base classes usually works poorly for both the 5e base class and the old subclass. Bladesingers apparently used to be elven swordsman who didn't even really use magic - their 'bladesong' was a martial technique that did martial things. From what I've heard at least, wasn't around for it. Bladesinger as a wizard subclass means that first, you're trying to be a wizard in melee combat. LOLshuur, good luck buddy. And second of all, it means whatever the old Bladesinger did it's not allowed to do anymore, because now it has to be a wizard with a weird sword fetish. The wizard base class does not benefit from anything the Bladesinger does outside munchkin tom****ery with AC abuse, and the Bladesinger as an idea just doesn't really work as a wizard.
Base classes are difficult to build and get right, correct. The answer should not be "let's release forty poorly designed subclasses a year and trade Class Bloat for Subclass Bloat", though.
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I agree. They should have run it as a full class with features that keyed off of it. I thought it was a good starting point towards something new and worthwhile.
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I've got to disagree with the EK being a bad subclass in itself. Imo it's a great subclass if you go in knowing what to expect.
It's a full fighter with a couple of weak spells for support. People are hating it because they go in wanting a magus, which it isn't, and so fails to live up to the expectations people are asking of it.
The ability to cast a spell and then attack as a bonus action exists in the form of EK18 Improved War Magic. How much overlap between spellstrike and EK18? You could have it be a feature that triggers a number of times equal to your spell casting modifier or 1/3 of your class levels +1.
How close is it to the Smite spells?
The fact that something similar exists shouldn't necessarily prevent something else from approaching that same concept. The fact that a multiclass can reach the vicinity doesn't mean that the idea doesn't have merit as it's own class. But you would need some design space around a general class conside concept to merit a new class. What would the core concept be and what would the subclass concepts be?
You didn't really read my response. I'm not saying "homebrew it bro" in response to the pathos of creating gish stuff, just to say that what's being asked ("spellstrike") can be done with a subclass, properly designed. If you'd like, reread my comment as "demand that WotC release another version of the EK" or whatever.
But I agree with you that bringing back 3e classes as subclasses is mostly a fool's errand because 3e classes were poorly designed in general. Believe me, I know because I've tried. So yeah, you're not going to find a good analogue to the 3e spellsword or 4e swordmage or whatever in 5e because those classes were busted from the get-go. And since the devs in 5e at least pay lip service to balance, you're not going to get a heavily-armored caster that can cast high-level spells and attack in the same round without serious costs, class or subclass. So that the EK is a crying shame is testament to the difficulty of creating a balanced gish in 5e, full stop. To put it another way, would the EK recast as a class be able to simultaneously be balanced and be able to hit those "awesome magical warrior" chords? Doubtful.
Your last comment is a straw man. Nobody wants poorly-designed anything. However, even in a worst-timeline bloated 5e hellscape, subclasses would be easier to manage than classes when it comes to broken mechanics. You cannot multi-subclass, for measure, so forty poorly designed subclasses don't present as many free variables as an equal number of classes.
To be fair, the Profane Soul Blood Hunter is a much better spellsword-type character than the Eldritch Knight is. It blends weapon strikes and arcane casting more easily and smoothly. Mostly by sacrificing some of the Fighter's overt fighter-ness in exchange for magical strength. If Mercer can do it, so can Wizards.
Please do not contact or message me.