So you're saying the spell remains in effect even if the effects of the spell are no longer in effect?
Yes, because outside Dispel Magic or somesuch, the spell is still there even though the temp HP are used up. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it at a higher level. Then the higher level spell would take effect.
Even if the spell were technically still in effect, your conclusion is incorrect. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it again at any level and roll literally anything, because it doesn’t matter what you originally rolled, the potency of the effect is 0 now.
The amount rolled matters because if the spells are cast at the same level, only the highest roll counts. To counter that, you have to cast it using a higher spell slot, or wait until the spell time expires.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
So you're saying the spell remains in effect even if the effects of the spell are no longer in effect?
Yes, because outside Dispel Magic or somesuch, the spell is still there even though the temp HP are used up. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it at a higher level. Then the higher level spell would take effect.
Even if the spell were technically still in effect, your conclusion is incorrect. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it again at any level and roll literally anything, because it doesn’t matter what you originally rolled, the potency of the effect is 0 now.
The amount rolled matters because if the spells are cast at the same level, only the highest roll counts. To counter that, you have to cast it using a higher spell slot, or wait until the spell time expires.
That’s incorrect. The most potent effect counts. The current effect in this hypothetical is zero. The original roll doesn’t matter, only the current potency.
So you're saying the spell remains in effect even if the effects of the spell are no longer in effect?
Yes, because outside Dispel Magic or somesuch, the spell is still there even though the temp HP are used up. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it at a higher level. Then the higher level spell would take effect.
Even if the spell were technically still in effect, your conclusion is incorrect. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it again at any level and roll literally anything, because it doesn’t matter what you originally rolled, the potency of the effect is 0 now.
The amount rolled matters because if the spells are cast at the same level, only the highest roll counts. To counter that, you have to cast it using a higher spell slot, or wait until the spell time expires.
That’s incorrect. The most potent effect counts. The current effect in this hypothetical is zero. The original roll doesn’t matter, only the current potency.
I beg to differ. If the spell was cast using a higher spell slot, the higher spell slot would take over even if the roll was less. Overlapping spell effects always go to the more powerful spell.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
So you're saying the spell remains in effect even if the effects of the spell are no longer in effect?
Yes, because outside Dispel Magic or somesuch, the spell is still there even though the temp HP are used up. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it at a higher level. Then the higher level spell would take effect.
Even if the spell were technically still in effect, your conclusion is incorrect. If you rolled an 8, the only way to get more would be to cast it again at any level and roll literally anything, because it doesn’t matter what you originally rolled, the potency of the effect is 0 now.
The amount rolled matters because if the spells are cast at the same level, only the highest roll counts. To counter that, you have to cast it using a higher spell slot, or wait until the spell time expires.
That’s incorrect. The most potent effect counts. The current effect in this hypothetical is zero. The original roll doesn’t matter, only the current potency.
I beg to differ. If the spell was cast using a higher spell slot, the higher spell slot would take over even if the roll was less. Overlapping spell effects always go to the more powerful spell.
You can beg all you want, but it doesn’t change the rules. You’re right about one thing. The most powerful spell will take precedence while the durations overlap. But spell level is only tangentially related to that. Read the rules. They don’t mention spell level once. If your 9th-level false life temporary HP have been eaten through, a 1st-level false life will override it, because 1d4+4 will always be greater than 0.
It’s not necessarily which one was more powerful at the time of casting, although, sometimes it is. It’s a matter of which spell is more powerful at the time their effects overlap. If a 9th-level False Life is dropped to 0 THP, and then a 1st-level False Life is cast on that person, then that 1st-level spell will be more powerful than the 9th-level version at that time.
“Most potent” refers to the level at which the spell was cast. If two versions were both cast at 3rd-level, then neither is “more potent” and it defaults to the version cast most recently.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
“Most potent” refers to the level at which the spell was cast. If two versions were both cast at 3rd-level, then neither is “more potent” and it defaults to the version cast most recently.
In the case of False Life, since those THP go away, it reduces the “potency.”
That quote was from a different thread about a different spell with an overlapping aura effect and no roll associated with the casting of that spell. This would have been one of the “sometimes it is” occasions I mentioned two posts up.
But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap
Yes, you're quoting the exact rules text that demonstrates that Sposta and I are correct and you are not. It's potency, not spell level, that matters.
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.
So this makes it clear that this is the general rule as relates to all game effects. It also tells us that there is a more specific rule governing spells in general in the PHB:
The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.
For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell's benefit only once; he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
It isn’t the “Spell Level” precisely, it is the one with the “most potent effect.” (Neither of these two rules tells us precisely how to determine “most potent,” but we do get one example: “such as the highest bonus” to work from, and we have intelligence and common sense to guide us.)
In the case of Spirit Guardians, the effect is an Aura that deals Xd8 damage to enemies. So, whichever one has the higher “X” is the “most potent” and in that case, it is determined by Spell Level. And following the more specific rules governing spells, if its a tie, the most recent casting takes precedence.
In the case of False Life, the effect is a number of THP. There happen to be even more specific rules governing THP, and looking at them:
Some spells and special abilities confer temporary hit points to a creature. Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage.
Because temporary hit points are separate from your actual hit points, they can exceed your hit point maximum. A character can, therefore, be at full hit points and receive temporary hit points.
Healing can't restore temporary hit points, and they can't be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. For example, if a spell grants you 12 temporary hit points when you already have 10, you can have 12 or 10, not 22.
If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn't restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you. Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest.
And since “Specific beats General,” we follow the most specific which are the rules for THP. Those rules tell us you get to choose, but the only reason to ever choose the lower option is if it did something else in addition such as Armor of Agathys and the higher one did not. But at that point we are no longer talking about “spells with the same name” so it is irrelevant for this discussion.
This is why False Life was a bad example to pick for this discussion, since that spell follows more specific rules than many other spells.
Still not exactly clear on which is actually more powerful. If you were to try and counterspell a lvl 1 it would be a different matter to counterspell a lvl 9.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Still not exactly clear on which is actually more powerful. If you were to try and counterspell a lvl 1 it would be a different matter to counterspell a lvl 9.
Counterspell has specific rules that reference spell level, so it's wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If it's not clear to you that an effect providing, say, 5 temporary HP is more potent than an effect providing 0, I don't think we're ever going to be able to cross that bridge. *shrug*
Depends on which benchmark you're referencing. Dispel Magic, like counterspell, has its own specific rules that explicitly mention spell level, not potency. The rules about stacking spell effects explicitly mention potency, not spell level. They're just not comparable situations.
You've failed to convince me that spell levels and potency are unrelated.
I wouldn't say they're unrelated. Spell level certainly can influence potency; in many cases potency is a direct function of spell level (for example, magic weapon), but spell level doesn't matter in and of itself.
I'm really not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just, you know, quoting the rules. Again, if you don't believe that 5 is more potent than 0, there's really nothing anyone can do here.
The amount rolled matters because if the spells are cast at the same level, only the highest roll counts. To counter that, you have to cast it using a higher spell slot, or wait until the spell time expires.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That’s incorrect. The most potent effect counts. The current effect in this hypothetical is zero. The original roll doesn’t matter, only the current potency.
I beg to differ. If the spell was cast using a higher spell slot, the higher spell slot would take over even if the roll was less. Overlapping spell effects always go to the more powerful spell.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You can beg all you want, but it doesn’t change the rules. You’re right about one thing. The most powerful spell will take precedence while the durations overlap. But spell level is only tangentially related to that. Read the rules. They don’t mention spell level once. If your 9th-level false life temporary HP have been eaten through, a 1st-level false life will override it, because 1d4+4 will always be greater than 0.
It’s not necessarily which one was more powerful at the time of casting, although, sometimes it is. It’s a matter of which spell is more powerful at the time their effects overlap. If a 9th-level False Life is dropped to 0 THP, and then a 1st-level False Life is cast on that person, then that 1st-level spell will be more powerful than the 9th-level version at that time.
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Hold up...
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
In the case of False Life, since those THP go away, it reduces the “potency.”
That quote was from a different thread about a different spell with an overlapping aura effect and no roll associated with the casting of that spell. This would have been one of the “sometimes it is” occasions I mentioned two posts up.
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But with the overlap of effects, damage rolls are made. It was decided that the rolls didn't matter, it was the level of spell that counted. No?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yes, you're quoting the exact rules text that demonstrates that Sposta and I are correct and you are not. It's potency, not spell level, that matters.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?
So, for the full excerpt:
So this makes it clear that this is the general rule as relates to all game effects. It also tells us that there is a more specific rule governing spells in general in the PHB:
It isn’t the “Spell Level” precisely, it is the one with the “most potent effect.” (Neither of these two rules tells us precisely how to determine “most potent,” but we do get one example: “such as the highest bonus” to work from, and we have intelligence and common sense to guide us.)
In the case of Spirit Guardians, the effect is an Aura that deals Xd8 damage to enemies. So, whichever one has the higher “X” is the “most potent” and in that case, it is determined by Spell Level. And following the more specific rules governing spells, if its a tie, the most recent casting takes precedence.
In the case of False Life, the effect is a number of THP. There happen to be even more specific rules governing THP, and looking at them:
And since “Specific beats General,” we follow the most specific which are the rules for THP. Those rules tell us you get to choose, but the only reason to ever choose the lower option is if it did something else in addition such as Armor of Agathys and the higher one did not. But at that point we are no longer talking about “spells with the same name” so it is irrelevant for this discussion.
This is why False Life was a bad example to pick for this discussion, since that spell follows more specific rules than many other spells.
I hope that helps.
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They were talking about this:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/75172-spiritual-guardians
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You guys are cracking me up.
Whether the spell is still technically in effect or not doesn't matter. Nothing about it prevents you from recasting it whenever you want.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Still not exactly clear on which is actually more powerful. If you were to try and counterspell a lvl 1 it would be a different matter to counterspell a lvl 9.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Counterspell has specific rules that reference spell level, so it's wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If it's not clear to you that an effect providing, say, 5 temporary HP is more potent than an effect providing 0, I don't think we're ever going to be able to cross that bridge. *shrug*
Does the same apply to dispel magic?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Depends on which benchmark you're referencing. Dispel Magic, like counterspell, has its own specific rules that explicitly mention spell level, not potency. The rules about stacking spell effects explicitly mention potency, not spell level. They're just not comparable situations.
You've failed to convince me that spell levels and potency are unrelated.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I wouldn't say they're unrelated. Spell level certainly can influence potency; in many cases potency is a direct function of spell level (for example, magic weapon), but spell level doesn't matter in and of itself.
I'm really not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just, you know, quoting the rules. Again, if you don't believe that 5 is more potent than 0, there's really nothing anyone can do here.
Why does the false life from shadow touch give 1d4+4 HP but the spell gives 2d4+4 HP?