1.) Fifth edition is damn near perfect for most players. It's uncomplicated, it's easy to jump into, and you can do almost anything.
2.) Do you want a stricter ruleset? Well, they developed the fudge out of 3.5 so you can just go play that.
3.) Are there too many flaws in 3.5 for you? Then go play pathfinder.
4.) If they try to make a new edition that's more complex it will be less popular, if they try to make it less complex it will be too boring.
5.)Just keep developing 5e until it stops being profitable.
1.) Fifth Edition is an improvement, but it is far, far from "damn near perfect". if it was Damn Near Perfect(TM), why would there be such a huge homebrew market for 5e? Why would there be so many threads complaining about elements of the game? Why would there be constant confusion in places like the R&GM forum? 5e cut complexity where it harmed the game experienced, retained complexity in places it did not need to do so, it's only "easy to jump into" if you've been gaming for years already and know the language or if you have multiple friends willing to play your character for you, with you watching, until you start catching the hang of it. And for a game that says "you can do damn near anything", there are hundreds of cool character concepts you absolutely cannot play, and an uncountable legion of actions you can try and take which the game does not account for and demands that the DM fudge on the spot with absolutely no guidance whatsoever. It's rare to see so much wrong in two short sentences, honestly.
2.) Proponents of a 6e/5.5e/A5e redux do not want a stricter ruleset. At least, not universally. We want a better ruleset. One that learns from the mistakes 5e made, the way 5e learned from the mistakes of 4e and 3.5e. Such as, just as one example, so horrendously oversimplifying martial combat that not only the entire ruleset for all forms of martial combat but the complete stats and specifications for all martial weapons and armor can all be written on a single 3x5 notecard in 12-point font without using the entire card. Many people laud this as "yay simple and easy, good for newbs!" without realizing that no - it's bad for 'newbs' and even worse for game veterans. "Newbs" do not need oversimplified rules - they need someone to help them learn the language and mindset of the game. They're not stupid, they're new, and once they learn the language they'll be fine with a bit of meat on the game's bones.
3.) Pathfinder is a mess that doesn't know what it wants to be. It's had a few fantastic ideas, but for the most part Pathfinder refuses to learn from any other game's mistakes, or its own. Pathfinder 1e worked because it allowed disgruntled 3.5e polayers to pointedly ignore a new D&D edition nobody liked. Pathfinder 2e is competing with a D&D edition everybody likes (or at least tolerates), and it shows. nevertheless, the argument can be turned right back at you - don't want to play the New Hotness 6e when it comes out? Just go play 5e. They developed the fudge out of it, and all your stuff will still be there when 6e drops.
4.) You're basing this on what, precisely? The fact that you don't like learning new rules? There's plenty of people who'll already tell you that the game has long since slid into the "less complex and thus boring" camp. Martial combat is a travesty. The 'Social' and 'Exploration' pillars of D&D pretty much don't exist, and many, many, many players have been crying out for more guidance on running these aspects of the game. Note that each new book comes up with new DM tools and additional rules packs a DM can use, most of which have been snapped up with the desperate greed of a starving man finding a sandwich in a desert. If there was no desire for these additional tools and rules, why would people keep demanding them?
5.) They're absolutely going to keep working on 5e until it stops being profitable. What then? Do they just retire D&D forever? Do they let the game drop entirely and say "Nah, D&D is done - 5e isn't profitable anymore and we've decided not to try and revitalize it. Enjoy your dead books and good luck with somebody else's product."
6e is as inevitable as death and taxes. When 6e will happen, nobody knows yet. That 6e will happen is a foregone conclusion. Hopefully it will be better, as opposed to doing the Star Trek thing where every other edition is garbage. We'll find out in [X] years. I'm excited to see it. 6e won't kill anybody's 5e games, but it'll let people start playing 6e games with a fresh new ruleset people haven't beaten to death.
Le sigh. So long as we're necroing this old-assed thread for no reason anyways, let's go over this, shall we? <snipped - it's just one post up, guys>
Harsh, but largely fair. There's tons of elements of 5E that can be improved on. The martial combat Yurei mentioned (and the martial vs magical divide in general) was much better in 4E despite that being a "D&D edition nobody liked" (not really, Rei, but ok) for instance.
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Yeah the big takeway for me in 5e is the natural language system needs some help....it creates too many scenarios that are clear as mud and twice as goopy.
Its suppose to be new player friendly...but its hardly new DM Friendly because of all the judgement calls you have to make fairly often.
This is what causes a high amount of DM burn out IMO for this edition.
Yeah the big takeway for me in 5e is the natural language system needs some help....it creates too many scenarios that are clear as mud and twice as goopy.
Its suppose to be new player friendly...but its hardly new DM Friendly because of all the judgement calls you have to make fairly often.
This is what causes a high amount of DM burn out IMO for this edition.
I agree. I find the natural language horrendous in 5e. I much prefer technical language where it is clear and concise. Flavor and fluff can still be preserved by using a different font or a separate boxed out section.
6e won't kill anybody's 5e games, but it'll let people start playing 6e games with a fresh new ruleset people haven't beaten to death.
Honestly, that's one of the big ones for me: a game that doesn't already have 50 million forum posts on bad/op mechanics, class builds, game-breaking combos, etc.
This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Spell casters have loads of options in combat, but non-casters (and especially melee characters) basically have "I hit them with my axe/sword". They roll a couple of dice and pass the game on to the party wizard.
This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Spell casters have loads of options in combat, but non-casters (and especially melee characters) basically have "I hit them with my axe/sword". They roll a couple of dice and pass the game on to the party wizard.
I would argue that most melee types chose melee because they prefer its simplicity. For those who feel otherwise, there are improvised weapons (and tavern brawler). The is rope, there are grappling hooks there are thieve's tools other tool proficiencies. Unless you used intelligence as a dump stat, your character has a brain and can think creatively.
If you want the brute strength versatility of magic though, take up a magic using class and accept its limitations too.
And that said, how many different spells do most casters actually use in combat?
I think that's kinda the point. Simplicity is one thing, but there is also such a thing as over-simplification.
For most melee characters, the RAW actions which you can make are extremely limited. They basically boil down to hitting them with a weapon, grapple or shove. You have a choice of which weapon to use, although often this can only be chosen once at the beginning without giving up an action to change it. It rarely makes sense to use an improvised weapon, as your real weapon will be stronger and the improvised one will have no benefit.
Now, of course, you can do other things. The only constraints on your actions are your imagination and what the DM will allow. However, this is much more difficult and much less reliable than using the written rules. It takes imagination and innovative thinking to come up with an improvised action. If you suggest an improvised action, like attempting to lasso an enemy, you never know how the DM is going to react. They could just allow it, or they could require a check which is more difficult than you expected, or they could just disallow it or have you automatically fail.
Casters, on the other hand, will generally have several spells available to them which are ideal for use in combat. These are written rules, with no need to check with the DM and no imagination needed. They will normally have more than this which are useful in certain situations. This is the gap which could do with filling for martial characters: Some written rules describing more interesting things they can do in combat, some of which are ideal for many combats and some of which are situational. Something which sits in between "I hit him with my axe again" and thinking up innovative improvised actions which may be rejected.
I don't see a lot of "I Hit Stuff" around. There are all sorts of exotic races now with groovy powers. Every single class in the game has some way of getting spells if they want them, either directly like the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster, or indirectly with a feat. Variant Humans get a feat at first level, the rest get one at fourth if they wish. Is there any subclass that *doesn't* have a spell or spell-like ability other than the Champion Fighter?
Hexblades are too good in my opinion, but you can't deny how effective they are. You want to fill the gap between martial types and caster types? There it is. Warlocks in general are that way.
Monks boot head. Bards have all the toys. Druids into Wildshape are another one that blurs the lines. I consider Barbarian Rage to be semi-magical, and Barbarians get to do a bit more than just Hit Stuff. They can be tactical with their Rage as far as when to use it, and they can always grab a sword and board and be tankish. I don't like them and won't have them in my games, but Artificers are right versatile critters.
My own heavy armor sword and board Champion Fighter didn't just hit things. She couldn't do much else on her *own* but D&D is not a solo activity. What she could do was help everyone else by making tactical suggestions. I was building her up so that at some point she'd be able to drop the shield, draw a second longsword and use both with all bonuses intact and only one point of armor class lost.
I like to stay on topic, so I'll go ahead and repeat myself a bit. I don't see 6th Edition all that soon, but it *will* come. It would be better to focus on what we do like than gripe about what we don't. I know it's always easier to tear down things than to build them up, but we could try. I like the combat system over all, but I think a better explanation of how abstract it really is would be beneficial. I like the armor and weapons, but I'd really like to see the names corrected, armors that didn't really exist removed or renamed, and pictures, lots of pictures! I'd love to see more on environmental hazards and exploration, but we may get that before 6th Edition.
You can therefore be a Terrifying Goblin that tears through a group of enemies, scares one to death, then jumps off a cliff to bounce away....its.....glorious.
I think this is a stupid argument. There WILL be a sixth edition. 5e WILL eventually run dry, like it has with many people already.
I wouldn't call myself a very experienced player (around 4 years of DnD), but EVERY SINGLE ONE of my recent characters has been a re-fluffed multiclass build, most of the time to fit classes that should already exist.
If the interest keeps declining (As it has with every edition- hell every commercial item- ever), there will be some reboot to the system.
I think 5e is a GOOD system. It isn't too simple but not complicated either. That said, people will get bored. 3e and 3.5e combined lasted only 7 years, 4e lasted five before they started developing 5e. I think 5e is the best system yet, and that is why it has lasted so long without becoming stale, but nevertheless, there WILL be a new edition.
If I had one wish, it would be that the DnD beyond devs continue this brilliant site and add compatability with the inevitable new edition.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
you mean like a spider bear or monkey bear?(if someone understands this refernence I will be most surprised)
Lol! Yes, I get the AtLA reference, AtLA us amazing. I have way too much random AtLA information stored in my head...
My cabbages!
I like the Dragon Prince better, but AtLA is pretty good, as well.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
5e ain't perfect, but it's closer than it's ever been, a 5.5e might be interesting but I don't what I would think if a 6th edition came out.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Le sigh. So long as we're necroing this old-assed thread for no reason anyways, let's go over this, shall we?
Numbering added by Rei, to assist with rebuttal
1.) Fifth Edition is an improvement, but it is far, far from "damn near perfect". if it was Damn Near Perfect(TM), why would there be such a huge homebrew market for 5e? Why would there be so many threads complaining about elements of the game? Why would there be constant confusion in places like the R&GM forum? 5e cut complexity where it harmed the game experienced, retained complexity in places it did not need to do so, it's only "easy to jump into" if you've been gaming for years already and know the language or if you have multiple friends willing to play your character for you, with you watching, until you start catching the hang of it. And for a game that says "you can do damn near anything", there are hundreds of cool character concepts you absolutely cannot play, and an uncountable legion of actions you can try and take which the game does not account for and demands that the DM fudge on the spot with absolutely no guidance whatsoever. It's rare to see so much wrong in two short sentences, honestly.
2.) Proponents of a 6e/5.5e/A5e redux do not want a stricter ruleset. At least, not universally. We want a better ruleset. One that learns from the mistakes 5e made, the way 5e learned from the mistakes of 4e and 3.5e. Such as, just as one example, so horrendously oversimplifying martial combat that not only the entire ruleset for all forms of martial combat but the complete stats and specifications for all martial weapons and armor can all be written on a single 3x5 notecard in 12-point font without using the entire card. Many people laud this as "yay simple and easy, good for newbs!" without realizing that no - it's bad for 'newbs' and even worse for game veterans. "Newbs" do not need oversimplified rules - they need someone to help them learn the language and mindset of the game. They're not stupid, they're new, and once they learn the language they'll be fine with a bit of meat on the game's bones.
3.) Pathfinder is a mess that doesn't know what it wants to be. It's had a few fantastic ideas, but for the most part Pathfinder refuses to learn from any other game's mistakes, or its own. Pathfinder 1e worked because it allowed disgruntled 3.5e polayers to pointedly ignore a new D&D edition nobody liked. Pathfinder 2e is competing with a D&D edition everybody likes (or at least tolerates), and it shows. nevertheless, the argument can be turned right back at you - don't want to play the New Hotness 6e when it comes out? Just go play 5e. They developed the fudge out of it, and all your stuff will still be there when 6e drops.
4.) You're basing this on what, precisely? The fact that you don't like learning new rules? There's plenty of people who'll already tell you that the game has long since slid into the "less complex and thus boring" camp. Martial combat is a travesty. The 'Social' and 'Exploration' pillars of D&D pretty much don't exist, and many, many, many players have been crying out for more guidance on running these aspects of the game. Note that each new book comes up with new DM tools and additional rules packs a DM can use, most of which have been snapped up with the desperate greed of a starving man finding a sandwich in a desert. If there was no desire for these additional tools and rules, why would people keep demanding them?
5.) They're absolutely going to keep working on 5e until it stops being profitable. What then? Do they just retire D&D forever? Do they let the game drop entirely and say "Nah, D&D is done - 5e isn't profitable anymore and we've decided not to try and revitalize it. Enjoy your dead books and good luck with somebody else's product."
6e is as inevitable as death and taxes. When 6e will happen, nobody knows yet. That 6e will happen is a foregone conclusion. Hopefully it will be better, as opposed to doing the Star Trek thing where every other edition is garbage. We'll find out in [X] years. I'm excited to see it. 6e won't kill anybody's 5e games, but it'll let people start playing 6e games with a fresh new ruleset people haven't beaten to death.
Doesn't that sound cool?
Please do not contact or message me.
Harsh, but largely fair. There's tons of elements of 5E that can be improved on. The martial combat Yurei mentioned (and the martial vs magical divide in general) was much better in 4E despite that being a "D&D edition nobody liked" (not really, Rei, but ok) for instance.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah the big takeway for me in 5e is the natural language system needs some help....it creates too many scenarios that are clear as mud and twice as goopy.
Its suppose to be new player friendly...but its hardly new DM Friendly because of all the judgement calls you have to make fairly often.
This is what causes a high amount of DM burn out IMO for this edition.
you mean like a spider bear or monkey bear?(if someone understands this refernence I will be most surprised)
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
I wouldn't say 'never' but I don't think they should be in any rush to make 6E right now either.
But eventually I think there will come a time where 5E has run its course and they'll want to update the system etc. Nothing stays popular forever.
Why would you be surprised at a bunch of nerds understanding a Last Airbender reference? o_o
Please do not contact or message me.
it is a bit of a random one
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
I agree. I find the natural language horrendous in 5e. I much prefer technical language where it is clear and concise. Flavor and fluff can still be preserved by using a different font or a separate boxed out section.
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Honestly, that's one of the big ones for me: a game that doesn't already have 50 million forum posts on bad/op mechanics, class builds, game-breaking combos, etc.
Here here for all new bad/op mechanics, class builds, game breaking combos, etc. Yay.
6th Edition D&D will come in time. Nothing can prevent it, just delay it for a while.
<Insert clever signature here>
Lol! Yes, I get the AtLA reference, AtLA us amazing. I have way too much random AtLA information stored in my head...
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
My cabbages!
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Spell casters have loads of options in combat, but non-casters (and especially melee characters) basically have "I hit them with my axe/sword". They roll a couple of dice and pass the game on to the party wizard.
I think that's kinda the point. Simplicity is one thing, but there is also such a thing as over-simplification.
For most melee characters, the RAW actions which you can make are extremely limited. They basically boil down to hitting them with a weapon, grapple or shove. You have a choice of which weapon to use, although often this can only be chosen once at the beginning without giving up an action to change it. It rarely makes sense to use an improvised weapon, as your real weapon will be stronger and the improvised one will have no benefit.
Now, of course, you can do other things. The only constraints on your actions are your imagination and what the DM will allow. However, this is much more difficult and much less reliable than using the written rules. It takes imagination and innovative thinking to come up with an improvised action. If you suggest an improvised action, like attempting to lasso an enemy, you never know how the DM is going to react. They could just allow it, or they could require a check which is more difficult than you expected, or they could just disallow it or have you automatically fail.
Casters, on the other hand, will generally have several spells available to them which are ideal for use in combat. These are written rules, with no need to check with the DM and no imagination needed. They will normally have more than this which are useful in certain situations. This is the gap which could do with filling for martial characters: Some written rules describing more interesting things they can do in combat, some of which are ideal for many combats and some of which are situational. Something which sits in between "I hit him with my axe again" and thinking up innovative improvised actions which may be rejected.
I don't see a lot of "I Hit Stuff" around. There are all sorts of exotic races now with groovy powers. Every single class in the game has some way of getting spells if they want them, either directly like the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster, or indirectly with a feat. Variant Humans get a feat at first level, the rest get one at fourth if they wish. Is there any subclass that *doesn't* have a spell or spell-like ability other than the Champion Fighter?
Hexblades are too good in my opinion, but you can't deny how effective they are. You want to fill the gap between martial types and caster types? There it is. Warlocks in general are that way.
Monks boot head. Bards have all the toys. Druids into Wildshape are another one that blurs the lines. I consider Barbarian Rage to be semi-magical, and Barbarians get to do a bit more than just Hit Stuff. They can be tactical with their Rage as far as when to use it, and they can always grab a sword and board and be tankish. I don't like them and won't have them in my games, but Artificers are right versatile critters.
My own heavy armor sword and board Champion Fighter didn't just hit things. She couldn't do much else on her *own* but D&D is not a solo activity. What she could do was help everyone else by making tactical suggestions. I was building her up so that at some point she'd be able to drop the shield, draw a second longsword and use both with all bonuses intact and only one point of armor class lost.
I like to stay on topic, so I'll go ahead and repeat myself a bit. I don't see 6th Edition all that soon, but it *will* come. It would be better to focus on what we do like than gripe about what we don't. I know it's always easier to tear down things than to build them up, but we could try. I like the combat system over all, but I think a better explanation of how abstract it really is would be beneficial. I like the armor and weapons, but I'd really like to see the names corrected, armors that didn't really exist removed or renamed, and pictures, lots of pictures! I'd love to see more on environmental hazards and exploration, but we may get that before 6th Edition.
<Insert clever signature here>
They could learn from PF2E as it relates to feats for skills and not just class...
For example a fighter can double down on Intimidation and literally scare people to death in PF2e
Or you can do Medicine and become the healer for the group.
That is just the skill feats...then you get racial and class feats that let you do crazy fun things as well.
Fighter feats lets you do things like charge through a group of enemies and damage them
And as a Goblin you can fall from a super high height and literally bounce afterwards like a superball.
You can therefore be a Terrifying Goblin that tears through a group of enemies, scares one to death, then jumps off a cliff to bounce away....its.....glorious.
I think this is a stupid argument. There WILL be a sixth edition. 5e WILL eventually run dry, like it has with many people already.
I wouldn't call myself a very experienced player (around 4 years of DnD), but EVERY SINGLE ONE of my recent characters has been a re-fluffed multiclass build, most of the time to fit classes that should already exist.
If the interest keeps declining (As it has with every edition- hell every commercial item- ever), there will be some reboot to the system.
I think 5e is a GOOD system. It isn't too simple but not complicated either. That said, people will get bored. 3e and 3.5e combined lasted only 7 years, 4e lasted five before they started developing 5e. I think 5e is the best system yet, and that is why it has lasted so long without becoming stale, but nevertheless, there WILL be a new edition.
If I had one wish, it would be that the DnD beyond devs continue this brilliant site and add compatability with the inevitable new edition.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I like the Dragon Prince better, but AtLA is pretty good, as well.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Despite wanting 6e due to my issues with 5e, I'm super paranoid that it will make things worse.
With everything I dislike about 5e being doubled down on.