@Stormknight has the right in this when he posted that in both Mystara and the Forgotten Realms halflings refer to themselves as "Hin". Of course Ed Greenwood wrote both The Five Shires Gazetteer as well as contributed to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and created the setting, itself), so that's not surprising. In Greyhawk, halflings are also called "hobniz", but this is also an exonym that comes from the Flan language (though is widely adopted). So, yeah, I would just go with "Hin". I'm actually surprised that the 5e PHB didn't make a note in the halfling entry that halflings call themselves "Hin" given hoe the human entry lists FR human ethnicities.
I also like the suggestion of @Gvarayi, of using "Dwarrow(s)" for dwarves (though I also like "dwerg").
Just pointing out that half isn't always and automatically inferior.
Maybe not in all situations, or not even most, but in the usage of referring to a person, it definitely is. Calling someone a "halfling" in real life who has dwarfism would be the equivalent of saying that someone with a fairly low IQ is "half-brained." In either circumstance, both would be unacceptable and very clearly insults.
Since when were we talking about real life? Please keep real life references out of the thread.
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@Stormknight has the right in this when he posted that in both Mystara and the Forgotten Realms halflings refer to themselves as "Hin". Of course Ed Greenwood wrote both The Five Shires Gazetteer as well as contributed to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and created the setting, itself), so that's not surprising. In Greyhawk, halflings are also called "hobniz", but this is also an exonym that comes from the Flan language (though is widely adopted). So, yeah, I would just go with "Hin". I'm actually surprised that the 5e PHB didn't make a note in the halfling entry that halflings call themselves "Hin" given hoe the human entry lists FR human ethnicities.
I also like the suggestion of @Gvarayi, of using "Dwarrow(s)" for dwarves (though I also like "dwerg").
At least one 5E sourcebook mentions this - I think it's the SCAG?
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I always read race names as if they are ment to be read from a human perspective... So something like halfling is just "oh.. those people are only half the regular size of a human"... So in that sense I think it's perfectly fine.. I do think that every race should refer to themselves differently though.. Halflings would probably not call themselves halfings, but rather something some that ment "people of the hills" or something in their native tongue.
An interesting thing to play with, is to have your setting dominated by another species than humans and have most npc's use that culture's terms for other races... So.. Let's say the world is dominated by elves.. humans could be called "fleeting folk" or something like that
A Halfling is not half of a ling. The -ling part is an adverbial suffix. It basically makes the first part of the word descriptive of whoever or whatever it refers to, so regardless of any connotations that might be ascribed to the word, “halfling” really does describe someone as “half a person”. Well, half something anyway. Half a normal person’s stature, for instance.
Again, who, outside perhaps of the Scottish, use the term as any sort of insult?
Why do you keep bringing up the Scottish? "Halfling", again, has nothing to do with "Ling" as a term for fish. I also said "regardless of any connotation that might be ascribed". I didn't say anyone deliberately uses it as an insult. What I'm saying is that the word does come from "half something".
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A Halfling is not half of a ling. The -ling part is an adverbial suffix. It basically makes the first part of the word descriptive of whoever or whatever it refers to, so regardless of any connotations that might be ascribed to the word, “halfling” really does describe someone as “half a person”. Well, half something anyway. Half a normal person’s stature, for instance.
Again, who, outside perhaps of the Scottish, use the term as any sort of insult?
Why do you keep bringing up the Scottish? "Halfling", again, has nothing to do with "Ling" as a term for fish. I also said "regardless of any connotation that might be ascribed". I didn't say anyone deliberately uses it as an insult. What I'm saying is that the word does come from "half something".
Because the origins of the word seem to be from a Scottish word describing someone no longer a boy but not quite a man, i.e. in an awkward, puberty stage.
That is 'half way between' so it does relate to 'half' but the topic of the thread implies it is some sort of problem and that the race names should be changed. It coming from 'half' is only relevant if that is treated as a negative thing. You went from 'Well it means half' to 'Well it means half a person, " i.e., less than a full person. There is zero evidence of anyone anywhere using the race name in any such manner.
If you misspoke, fair enough, however you did actually say what you said. And the context of this entire thread is the question of whether the race name is problematic in some way, so unless your 'Well it means half' actually relates to that, it is just a throwaway comment on your part.
The real world world doesn't have to be the origin for the in-game term. The real world word is also equally attributable to the Germans ("helbling" means halfpenny, and refers to a weak or stingy person). That aside, I did say "well, half something". And half doesn't usually mean anything particularly positive. To take it back to an argument made many posts ago, offense doesn't have to be given in order for offense to be taken. It doesn't matter if nobody anywhere ever used this as a derogatory term - what matters is whether Halflings could conceivably take offense with the term.
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Because the origins of the word seem to be from a Scottish word describing someone no longer a boy but not quite a man, i.e. in an awkward, puberty stage.
Eh, I think the whole Scottish thing is more of a red herring than anything else. I seriously doubt that Tolkien derived his term "halfling" from the Scottish term (as hobbits are not described in any way of having the characteristics of adolescent boys—rather, they are analogues of the quintessential rural English folk). Instead, it was most probably just coined to denote hobbits as half the size of humans and used by the human of the fiction as a descriptive exonym without any Scottish influence.
While we're at it, someone at WotC needs to seriously reconsider the naming conventions we use around Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
Calling an entire person "half" of something indicates that one side of their genetic lineage is superior to the other.
Not only does it contribute to the erasure of their human lineage, but the connotation is that there is something more worthy of being named (and, therefore, inherently better) about their Orcish or Elven parentage.
This is disgusting, and needs to stop. Someone at WotC should be held to account.
Normally I agree with you about most things, but I don’t think I do about this necessarily. I mean, if something is half human and half Orc, calling it a “Half-Orc” seems generally appropriate to me. 🤷♂️
This question can really be applied to all PC races. We use "elfin" to describe someone as thin or lightly-built. But elves don't see themselves like that -- they're just normal. It's the humans who are thick and stocky. Orc derives from "monstrous." We don't need to explain dwarf (and apparently halfling). Gnome is a more modern, obviously-fabricated word which possibly means "earth-dweller." Again, gnomes wouldn't call themselves something like that but label other races descriptively (surface people or something). Tiefling was constructed to essentially mean "from the depths" reflecting the lower planes of their ancestry. That one might be what they call themselves, as they're not really a true race but more of an aberration within humans. Of all the PC races, dragonborn are likely the only ones whose game-name is a close translation of what they call themselves.
Then there's the various "half" races, which heavily imply a humanocentric point of view.
IRL, "human" has an unclear origin. There's evidence it comes from Latin, essentially meaning "civilized" (as in, not an animal). There's also a connection to the Hebrew adam, which aside form now existing as a given name, means "of the earth' (probably in contrast with divine beings?). So calling a D&D human a "human" implies certain things, too.
While we're at it, someone at WotC needs to seriously reconsider the naming conventions we use around Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
Calling an entire person "half" of something indicates that one side of their genetic lineage is superior to the other.
Not only does it contribute to the erasure of their human lineage, but the connotation is that there is something more worthy of being named (and, therefore, inherently better) about their Orcish or Elven parentage.
I mean, we don't call biracial people "Half-Whites" in daily conversation. However, this naming convention suggests that we SHOULD, and is therefore contributing to the inherent prejudice against biracial individuals in the real world.
This is disgusting, and needs to stop. Someone at WotC should be held to account.
But in the D&D world, humans are the only race that can reproduce with other races. Therefore, the human half is implied. I apologize for the crudeness of the analogy, but we don't call strawberry or chocolate shakes "strawberry and ice cream" or "chocolate and ice cream" shakes, because every shake has ice cream in it. Similarly, every half-race has human in it. Plus, terms like "half-elven" go back a long way in classic fantasy.
Now, if anyone biracial has actually been hurt by half-elves or half-orcs, or feels that it contributes to inherent prejudice against them, I'll have to change my opinion. But to me, with respect, it feels like this makes a mountain out of a molehill.
A Halfling is not half of a ling. The -ling part is an adverbial suffix. It basically makes the first part of the word descriptive of whoever or whatever it refers to, so regardless of any connotations that might be ascribed to the word, “halfling” really does describe someone as “half a person”. Well, half something anyway. Half a normal person’s stature, for instance.
Again, who, outside perhaps of the Scottish, use the term as any sort of insult?
Why do you keep bringing up the Scottish? "Halfling", again, has nothing to do with "Ling" as a term for fish. I also said "regardless of any connotation that might be ascribed". I didn't say anyone deliberately uses it as an insult. What I'm saying is that the word does come from "half something".
Because the origins of the word seem to be from a Scottish word describing someone no longer a boy but not quite a man, i.e. in an awkward, puberty stage.
That is 'half way between' so it does relate to 'half' but the topic of the thread implies it is some sort of problem and that the race names should be changed. It coming from 'half' is only relevant if that is treated as a negative thing. You went from 'Well it means half' to 'Well it means half a person, " i.e., less than a full person. There is zero evidence of anyone anywhere using the race name in any such manner.
If you misspoke, fair enough, however you did actually say what you said. And the context of this entire thread is the question of whether the race name is problematic in some way, so unless your 'Well it means half' actually relates to that, it is just a throwaway comment on your part.
The real world world doesn't have to be the origin for the in-game term. The real world word is also equally attributable to the Germans ("helbling" means halfpenny, and refers to a weak or stingy person). That aside, I did say "well, half something". And half doesn't usually mean anything particularly positive. To take it back to an argument made many posts ago, offense doesn't have to be given in order for offense to be taken. It doesn't matter if nobody anywhere ever used this as a derogatory term - what matters is whether Halflings could conceivably take offense with the term.
The real world does not have to be the origin, but it was the origin of Tolkien's choice of the term. I gave examples where half can indeed be positive. Again, those who insist on seeing the negative will see just that, no matter what name or term. Tolkien who, choose the term for the race and clearly, law suits notwithstanding, provided the basis for the D&D interpretation of the race, presented them as 'people' with generally good values and with individuals capable of extreme heroism.
The standard is not 'Someone somewhere might possibly take offense' but rather 'there is actual evidence that people do take offense.' Seriously, using the logic you are using, vast numbers of real life people should have mandatory name changes, since there is a high likelihood that at least one person in existence might take offense at their name.
There are terms which are clearly offensive due to historical context that one can clearly point to and then there are complaints over complete hypotheticals, which are, more often than not, merely straw men to be shot down and used as arguments why tackling actual racism or xenophobia is therefore somehow wrong or pointless.
Many people do take offense at names. Plenty of countries even prohibit certain names, and every gov't I know has a procedure for changing one's name officially. That doesn't mean anyone should have their named changed mandatorily - the risk of offense is usually quite bearable after all.
More to the point though, that'd be a case of one person changing their name to suit another's sensibilities. That's not what this thread is about. This is about a race presumably calling itself something other than what other races call it. It's more like me changing my name because I don't like it than anything else. Is that going overboard for a fantasy race in a fantasy setting (as compared to, say, use of the N-word in real life)? Possibly, but I don't really see any harm in someone doing this for their own campaign. It's not like this is a petition to have WotC make an official proclamation or anything.
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While we're at it, someone at WotC needs to seriously reconsider the naming conventions we use around Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
Calling an entire person "half" of something indicates that one side of their genetic lineage is superior to the other.
Not only does it contribute to the erasure of their human lineage, but the connotation is that there is something more worthy of being named (and, therefore, inherently better) about their Orcish or Elven parentage.
I mean, we don't call biracial people "Half-Whites" in daily conversation. However, this naming convention suggests that we SHOULD, and is therefore contributing to the inherent prejudice against biracial individuals in the real world.
This is disgusting, and needs to stop. Someone at WotC should be held to account.
But to me, with respect, it feels like this makes a mountain out of a molehill.
It does.
And that was EXACTLY the point. :D
Seems that you missed the real social justice atrocity; tieflings and aasimar. The game system identifies an entire group of people as "half-demon." "Demon" has all kinds of bad connotations to it. We should strive for social justice and call these people "forked-tongue enhanced" or just "horned." Social justice of the Millenial kind pretty much demands that we get rid of the word "Demon," replace it with something which can be more body positive, and celebrate their cultural differences rather than make them "other" and "evil." The idea that a wanton slaughter aesthetic must be a bad thing is surely nothing more than a lie told by the Heironeous hegemony.
Tiefling lives matter.
Down with the Paladins!
You mean the paladins that in this version are completely free to be psychopathic <word omitted> who have no power to detect any upper or lower power in Aasimar or Tiefling since they are so separated from such power that there is no issue?
That no mainstream religious organization have raised any voices about?
Many people do take offense at names. Plenty of countries even prohibit certain names, and every gov't I know has a procedure for changing one's name officially. That doesn't mean anyone should have their named changed mandatorily - the risk of offense is usually quite bearable after all.
More to the point though, that'd be a case of one person changing their name to suit another's sensibilities. That's not what this thread is about. This is about a race presumably calling itself something other than what other races call it. It's more like me changing my name because I don't like it than anything else. Is that going overboard for a fantasy race in a fantasy setting (as compared to, say, use of the N-word in real life)? Possibly, but I don't really see any harm in someone doing this for their own campaign. It's not like this is a petition to have WotC make an official proclamation or anything.
Well of course for any given campaign. However in the case of Hobbits, they call themselves Hobbits. No one else talked them into that name. They even have a major city named Hobbiton. Can any given DM create a world in which they are otherwise? Of course they can. Or even a world where they call themselves petunias. But the OP is not asking about whether races can call themselves different names, but rather whether they should be called by different names generally. And the reason given is because of a perceived issue with being associated with small-ness.
Methinks you should take a look at that first post again. No mention of the term “hobbits”, to begin with. The entire issue can be summarized by “in the worlds you have created, are there terms that Dwarfs and Halflings use to refer to one another that are less blatantly demeaning and would appreciate it if others used them too?”
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While we're at it, someone at WotC needs to seriously reconsider the naming conventions we use around Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
Calling an entire person "half" of something indicates that one side of their genetic lineage is superior to the other.
Not only does it contribute to the erasure of their human lineage, but the connotation is that there is something more worthy of being named (and, therefore, inherently better) about their Orcish or Elven parentage.
I mean, we don't call biracial people "Half-Whites" in daily conversation. However, this naming convention suggests that we SHOULD, and is therefore contributing to the inherent prejudice against biracial individuals in the real world.
This is disgusting, and needs to stop. Someone at WotC should be held to account.
That's a strawman argument if I ever saw one. That's not what people are saying. Also, no one wants to punish WotC for anything, as no one is angry about this. Pretending fake outrage in response to not-actual-outrage is a huge fallacy.
Obviously Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would be called their current names by their respective parent races, as they literally are "half" genetically of the human and elf/orc. It's not an issue to call a Pomeranian-Corgi mix a Half-Corgi, Half-Pomeranian or "Corgipom." Hell, if you want to use the naming convention we use for dogs on humanoid hybrids, Half-Elves could be called Helf's, Half-Orcs could be Horcs, and Dwarf-Elves are Dwelfs.
However, Halflings are not actually half a person, and in most D&D worlds that have them in them, they are an original and old race that would have their own name (Kender, Hin, Hobbit, etc for example). The same applies to Dwarves.
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Heh, I think we should rename the halfling, "floresiensis".
he / him
Relating to hobbit, hob, robin and rob.
Halfling is actually a race that we can call Bob.
he / him
@Stormknight has the right in this when he posted that in both Mystara and the Forgotten Realms halflings refer to themselves as "Hin". Of course Ed Greenwood wrote both The Five Shires Gazetteer as well as contributed to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and created the setting, itself), so that's not surprising. In Greyhawk, halflings are also called "hobniz", but this is also an exonym that comes from the Flan language (though is widely adopted). So, yeah, I would just go with "Hin". I'm actually surprised that the 5e PHB didn't make a note in the halfling entry that halflings call themselves "Hin" given hoe the human entry lists FR human ethnicities.
I also like the suggestion of @Gvarayi, of using "Dwarrow(s)" for dwarves (though I also like "dwerg").
Since when were we talking about real life? Please keep real life references out of the thread.
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At least one 5E sourcebook mentions this - I think it's the SCAG?
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I always read race names as if they are ment to be read from a human perspective... So something like halfling is just "oh.. those people are only half the regular size of a human"... So in that sense I think it's perfectly fine.. I do think that every race should refer to themselves differently though.. Halflings would probably not call themselves halfings, but rather something some that ment "people of the hills" or something in their native tongue.
An interesting thing to play with, is to have your setting dominated by another species than humans and have most npc's use that culture's terms for other races... So.. Let's say the world is dominated by elves.. humans could be called "fleeting folk" or something like that
Why do you keep bringing up the Scottish? "Halfling", again, has nothing to do with "Ling" as a term for fish. I also said "regardless of any connotation that might be ascribed". I didn't say anyone deliberately uses it as an insult. What I'm saying is that the word does come from "half something".
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfling
The real world world doesn't have to be the origin for the in-game term. The real world word is also equally attributable to the Germans ("helbling" means halfpenny, and refers to a weak or stingy person). That aside, I did say "well, half something". And half doesn't usually mean anything particularly positive. To take it back to an argument made many posts ago, offense doesn't have to be given in order for offense to be taken. It doesn't matter if nobody anywhere ever used this as a derogatory term - what matters is whether Halflings could conceivably take offense with the term.
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Eh, I think the whole Scottish thing is more of a red herring than anything else. I seriously doubt that Tolkien derived his term "halfling" from the Scottish term (as hobbits are not described in any way of having the characteristics of adolescent boys—rather, they are analogues of the quintessential rural English folk). Instead, it was most probably just coined to denote hobbits as half the size of humans and used by the human of the fiction as a descriptive exonym without any Scottish influence.
Normally I agree with you about most things, but I don’t think I do about this necessarily. I mean, if something is half human and half Orc, calling it a “Half-Orc” seems generally appropriate to me. 🤷♂️
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This question can really be applied to all PC races. We use "elfin" to describe someone as thin or lightly-built. But elves don't see themselves like that -- they're just normal. It's the humans who are thick and stocky. Orc derives from "monstrous." We don't need to explain dwarf (and apparently halfling). Gnome is a more modern, obviously-fabricated word which possibly means "earth-dweller." Again, gnomes wouldn't call themselves something like that but label other races descriptively (surface people or something). Tiefling was constructed to essentially mean "from the depths" reflecting the lower planes of their ancestry. That one might be what they call themselves, as they're not really a true race but more of an aberration within humans. Of all the PC races, dragonborn are likely the only ones whose game-name is a close translation of what they call themselves.
Then there's the various "half" races, which heavily imply a humanocentric point of view.
IRL, "human" has an unclear origin. There's evidence it comes from Latin, essentially meaning "civilized" (as in, not an animal). There's also a connection to the Hebrew adam, which aside form now existing as a given name, means "of the earth' (probably in contrast with divine beings?). So calling a D&D human a "human" implies certain things, too.
In my campaign world, “humie” (pronounced ü-mē) is the Orcish word for “mongrel.”
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But in the D&D world, humans are the only race that can reproduce with other races. Therefore, the human half is implied. I apologize for the crudeness of the analogy, but we don't call strawberry or chocolate shakes "strawberry and ice cream" or "chocolate and ice cream" shakes, because every shake has ice cream in it. Similarly, every half-race has human in it. Plus, terms like "half-elven" go back a long way in classic fantasy.
Now, if anyone biracial has actually been hurt by half-elves or half-orcs, or feels that it contributes to inherent prejudice against them, I'll have to change my opinion. But to me, with respect, it feels like this makes a mountain out of a molehill.
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Many people do take offense at names. Plenty of countries even prohibit certain names, and every gov't I know has a procedure for changing one's name officially. That doesn't mean anyone should have their named changed mandatorily - the risk of offense is usually quite bearable after all.
More to the point though, that'd be a case of one person changing their name to suit another's sensibilities. That's not what this thread is about. This is about a race presumably calling itself something other than what other races call it. It's more like me changing my name because I don't like it than anything else. Is that going overboard for a fantasy race in a fantasy setting (as compared to, say, use of the N-word in real life)? Possibly, but I don't really see any harm in someone doing this for their own campaign. It's not like this is a petition to have WotC make an official proclamation or anything.
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Is it established somehow that, among themselves and when speaking their own tongue, halflings call themselves "halflings"?
In Hawaii we do. The term is hapa. It doesn't have any derogatory or demeaning undertones. It just means that you have a mix of ethnicities.
It's easier to say "my hapa friend" than my "Chinese, Japanese, French, Hawaiian, Filipino friend."
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Well, I guess it does reveal something about the idea of this thread that I can’t tell who’s being serious anymore...
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
speaking of missing sarcasm..
Methinks you should take a look at that first post again. No mention of the term “hobbits”, to begin with. The entire issue can be summarized by “in the worlds you have created, are there terms that Dwarfs and Halflings use to refer to one another that are less blatantly demeaning and would appreciate it if others used them too?”
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That's a strawman argument if I ever saw one. That's not what people are saying. Also, no one wants to punish WotC for anything, as no one is angry about this. Pretending fake outrage in response to not-actual-outrage is a huge fallacy.
Obviously Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would be called their current names by their respective parent races, as they literally are "half" genetically of the human and elf/orc. It's not an issue to call a Pomeranian-Corgi mix a Half-Corgi, Half-Pomeranian or "Corgipom." Hell, if you want to use the naming convention we use for dogs on humanoid hybrids, Half-Elves could be called Helf's, Half-Orcs could be Horcs, and Dwarf-Elves are Dwelfs.
However, Halflings are not actually half a person, and in most D&D worlds that have them in them, they are an original and old race that would have their own name (Kender, Hin, Hobbit, etc for example). The same applies to Dwarves.
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