Hello everyone! With the release of TCOE and the new subclasses, I want to know your opinion.
What classes have received game-changing subclasses compared to the already existing ones? If you could pick a class, let's say, your favorite class or some class in specific, and do a tier list of its subclasses with the new additions, how do they compare to the others in terms of combat power, utility, or roleplay potential using the D to S tier system?
I'm fairly new to D&D and for example, was disappointed by the Monk subclasses as it was (sorry :c ), and was even considering playing Cobalt Soul if my DM allowed it as I wanted a more versatile Monk class in both combat and with some RP potential, but with the new Way of Mercy or Way of the Astral Self, I'm wondering how these subclasses compare to the ones in PHB or Xanathar's? Another example could be the new Sorcerer Subclasses with an expanded spell list compared to the others with way fewer spells. (How do you think these compare to let say Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul?).
Dungeon dudes are a YouTube duo that has been doing subclass ratings. They just did the monk subclasses. You could check them out as to why they rated what the way they did, but they gave the Shadow, Open hand, and Kensei all A ratings (nothing got an S). I personally have mixed feelings about the Kensei but they persuaded me to rate it higher than I had been. The Mercy Monk is pretty cool. It gives you some nice light healing options and can dish out some real nice damage. I'd probably put that in the A column as well. I'm not huge on Astral Self but I haven't given it a ton of thought.
With the new features in TCOE, I honestly think the monk got a real shot in the arm. I haven't given a ton of thought to how they benefit the other subclasses, but the ways they benefit the shadow monk is pretty huge. With the addition of the blind fighting style you that you can get through the Fighting Initiate feat, you can see in your own magical darkness which is pretty huge. With the addition of Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to cast darkness and still get an attack in that round. I've been playing a shadow monk for a while and I'm pretty excited to try out these new features.
I have never really been super into the monk at all.. It feels like they just don't have a lot of impact in terms of damage.. They have a super strong ability in stunning strike, but that's about it from what I've been able to tell..
As for the new subclasses.. well.. they're.. alright? Neither of them have really blown me away... I was hoping for a poison monk with the mercy monk, but sadly that didn't happen..
Lehrer makes a good point though.. The blind fighting shadowmonk combo could be really awesome.
As for other classes.. I don't remember all of them in detail.. But I don't think any of em are game breakingly strong (luckily). The ones that probably make the biggest stride in terms of power are the sorc subclasses in that they learn certain spells automatically which is really helpful for sorcs... The Abberrant mind in particular seems really cool to me because they also gain the ability to cast spells via their sorc points for a "cheaper" price than usual.
Monks get a bad rap for not putting up the highest damage numbers in the game but honestly it's overblown. The damage numbers are good for the first 10 levels and really only fall off relative to other classes a bit from levels 11-16. At 17 most of the good monk subclasses get a damage spike. The ones that don't are generally just crappy subclasses. Also, when you include the new optional features Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to put out even more competitive average damage. Turning a miss into a hit AND getting a free weapon attack in the same turn is fantastic and way better than using fury of blows. At levels 11-16 when your damage is a bit on the lower side you'll have plenty of ki points to throw around turning misses into hits. Your max numbers will never be as high as a GWM barbarian or one of the other high damage classes but monk average damage per round is quite good.
As for other classes, I think there are a few standouts. Barbarians have a new Path of the Beast which I think looks pretty good. It's damage will be higher than most barbarians although not as good as Berserkers. They won't have to deal with exhaustion either. They can also make good tanks with being able to reliably heal themselves. I just wish they didn't have to choose between the two at the start of the rage. Bards got College of Eloquence reprinted and for my money it's the best bard subclass. Lore is a close second though. Fighters get Rune Knights which look pretty strong. The ranger's subclasses look fine but the new options for Beast Master pets are fantastic and turn that subclass from an F into an... A? S? I dunno I'd have to think about it more. It's really strong now though. As MamasToast (LOL - great name) mentioned, the new sorcerer subclasses are pretty sexy.
I think that the Psi Knight is strong in that it gives the fighter class exactly what it needs to optimize damage output while having good tanking utility. Quick trip att... I mean telekinetic thrust and you're in a prime position to action surge your arsenal of extra attacks into a helpless enemy. Does it have the versatility of Battle Master? No, but its efficient and you have a lot more psi-dice than superiority dice. Additionally, it has a stronger stillness of mind given that you don't need to use an action to dispell, and I would argue it's strong on a class that doesn't have a wisdom saving throw proficiency. Finally, the defensive options for PK are very nice. Protective field is a nice low level way to reduce damage, while bulwark of force seems really strong given that it ups your whole party's defensive capabilities immediately. Finally telekinesis for free?!?! And you get an attack with it. I feel like this subclass is a tank's wet dream.
Monks get a bad rap for not putting up the highest damage numbers in the game but honestly it's overblown. The damage numbers are good for the first 10 levels and really only fall off relative to other classes a bit from levels 11-16. At 17 most of the good monk subclasses get a damage spike. The ones that don't are generally just crappy subclasses. Also, when you include the new optional features Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to put out even more competitive average damage. Turning a miss into a hit AND getting a free weapon attack in the same turn is fantastic and way better than using fury of blows. At levels 11-16 when your damage is a bit on the lower side you'll have plenty of ki points to throw around turning misses into hits. Your max numbers will never be as high as a GWM barbarian or one of the other high damage classes but monk average damage per round is quite good.
As for other classes, I think there are a few standouts. Barbarians have a new Path of the Beast which I think looks pretty good. It's damage will be higher than most barbarians although not as good as Berserkers. They won't have to deal with exhaustion either. They can also make good tanks with being able to reliably heal themselves. I just wish they didn't have to choose between the two at the start of the rage. Bards got College of Eloquence reprinted and for my money it's the best bard subclass. Lore is a close second though. Fighters get Rune Knights which look pretty strong. The ranger's subclasses look fine but the new options for Beast Master pets are fantastic and turn that subclass from an F into an... A? S? I dunno I'd have to think about it more. It's really strong now though. As MamasToast (LOL - great name) mentioned, the new sorcerer subclasses are pretty sexy.
Maybe the problem I have conceptually with the monk is that it's raelly hard to.. sort of.. customize. to build upon.. A lot of the subclasses give alternatives to martial arts which are just.. worse than than punching.. I just feel like they're in an odd place...But you're right.. their new options do help a bit, that's true.
I really love the concept of path of the beast myself.. although I feel like the could've leaned even more into the transformation becoming more extreme as you level up.. Their natural weapons don't scale at all either and which will become kinda awkward once your allies start finding cool magical weapons.. So.. love the idea.. the execution is a solid.. "alright" ^^.
Haha and thank you for the name thing :P I actually get a strange amount of attentino for it sometimes.
Honestly, My favorite clerics came with this new book. I really love both monks, and both sorcerers are a game changer for the sorcerer class a whole. I really dislike wild shape so having alternatives for wild shape is great. (Spores druid is one of my favorite subclasses). I think most of the new stuff lends itself to customization. Its just a matter of if they inspire particularly inspire you. For me, all of the new stuff was inspirational, except ironically the new bard.
Monks get a bad rap for not putting up the highest damage numbers in the game but honestly it's overblown. The damage numbers are good for the first 10 levels and really only fall off relative to other classes a bit from levels 11-16. At 17 most of the good monk subclasses get a damage spike. The ones that don't are generally just crappy subclasses. Also, when you include the new optional features Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to put out even more competitive average damage. Turning a miss into a hit AND getting a free weapon attack in the same turn is fantastic and way better than using fury of blows. At levels 11-16 when your damage is a bit on the lower side you'll have plenty of ki points to throw around turning misses into hits. Your max numbers will never be as high as a GWM barbarian or one of the other high damage classes but monk average damage per round is quite good.
As for other classes, I think there are a few standouts. Barbarians have a new Path of the Beast which I think looks pretty good. It's damage will be higher than most barbarians although not as good as Berserkers. They won't have to deal with exhaustion either. They can also make good tanks with being able to reliably heal themselves. I just wish they didn't have to choose between the two at the start of the rage. Bards got College of Eloquence reprinted and for my money it's the best bard subclass. Lore is a close second though. Fighters get Rune Knights which look pretty strong. The ranger's subclasses look fine but the new options for Beast Master pets are fantastic and turn that subclass from an F into an... A? S? I dunno I'd have to think about it more. It's really strong now though. As MamasToast (LOL - great name) mentioned, the new sorcerer subclasses are pretty sexy.
Maybe the problem I have conceptually with the monk is that it's raelly hard to.. sort of.. customize. to build upon.. A lot of the subclasses give alternatives to martial arts which are just.. worse than than punching.. I just feel like they're in an odd place...But you're right.. their new options do help a bit, that's true.
I really love the concept of path of the beast myself.. although I feel like the could've leaned even more into the transformation becoming more extreme as you level up.. Their natural weapons don't scale at all either and which will become kinda awkward once your allies start finding cool magical weapons.. So.. love the idea.. the execution is a solid.. "alright" ^^.
Haha and thank you for the name thing :P I actually get a strange amount of attentino for it sometimes.
Yeah Path of the Beast actually runs into the same issue that Monks have - not a lot of magic items/weapons/feats for natural and unarmed attacks. As things progress a GM would need to homebrew some magic items to augment those attacks or the monk and Path of the Beast barbarian would fall behind.
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Hello everyone! With the release of TCOE and the new subclasses, I want to know your opinion.
What classes have received game-changing subclasses compared to the already existing ones? If you could pick a class, let's say, your favorite class or some class in specific, and do a tier list of its subclasses with the new additions, how do they compare to the others in terms of combat power, utility, or roleplay potential using the D to S tier system?
I'm fairly new to D&D and for example, was disappointed by the Monk subclasses as it was (sorry :c ), and was even considering playing Cobalt Soul if my DM allowed it as I wanted a more versatile Monk class in both combat and with some RP potential, but with the new Way of Mercy or Way of the Astral Self, I'm wondering how these subclasses compare to the ones in PHB or Xanathar's? Another example could be the new Sorcerer Subclasses with an expanded spell list compared to the others with way fewer spells. (How do you think these compare to let say Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul?).
Dungeon dudes are a YouTube duo that has been doing subclass ratings. They just did the monk subclasses. You could check them out as to why they rated what the way they did, but they gave the Shadow, Open hand, and Kensei all A ratings (nothing got an S). I personally have mixed feelings about the Kensei but they persuaded me to rate it higher than I had been. The Mercy Monk is pretty cool. It gives you some nice light healing options and can dish out some real nice damage. I'd probably put that in the A column as well. I'm not huge on Astral Self but I haven't given it a ton of thought.
With the new features in TCOE, I honestly think the monk got a real shot in the arm. I haven't given a ton of thought to how they benefit the other subclasses, but the ways they benefit the shadow monk is pretty huge. With the addition of the blind fighting style you that you can get through the Fighting Initiate feat, you can see in your own magical darkness which is pretty huge. With the addition of Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to cast darkness and still get an attack in that round. I've been playing a shadow monk for a while and I'm pretty excited to try out these new features.
I have never really been super into the monk at all.. It feels like they just don't have a lot of impact in terms of damage.. They have a super strong ability in stunning strike, but that's about it from what I've been able to tell..
As for the new subclasses.. well.. they're.. alright? Neither of them have really blown me away... I was hoping for a poison monk with the mercy monk, but sadly that didn't happen..
Lehrer makes a good point though.. The blind fighting shadowmonk combo could be really awesome.
As for other classes.. I don't remember all of them in detail.. But I don't think any of em are game breakingly strong (luckily). The ones that probably make the biggest stride in terms of power are the sorc subclasses in that they learn certain spells automatically which is really helpful for sorcs... The Abberrant mind in particular seems really cool to me because they also gain the ability to cast spells via their sorc points for a "cheaper" price than usual.
Monks get a bad rap for not putting up the highest damage numbers in the game but honestly it's overblown. The damage numbers are good for the first 10 levels and really only fall off relative to other classes a bit from levels 11-16. At 17 most of the good monk subclasses get a damage spike. The ones that don't are generally just crappy subclasses. Also, when you include the new optional features Focused Aim and Ki-Fueled Attack, you'll be able to put out even more competitive average damage. Turning a miss into a hit AND getting a free weapon attack in the same turn is fantastic and way better than using fury of blows. At levels 11-16 when your damage is a bit on the lower side you'll have plenty of ki points to throw around turning misses into hits. Your max numbers will never be as high as a GWM barbarian or one of the other high damage classes but monk average damage per round is quite good.
As for other classes, I think there are a few standouts. Barbarians have a new Path of the Beast which I think looks pretty good. It's damage will be higher than most barbarians although not as good as Berserkers. They won't have to deal with exhaustion either. They can also make good tanks with being able to reliably heal themselves. I just wish they didn't have to choose between the two at the start of the rage. Bards got College of Eloquence reprinted and for my money it's the best bard subclass. Lore is a close second though. Fighters get Rune Knights which look pretty strong. The ranger's subclasses look fine but the new options for Beast Master pets are fantastic and turn that subclass from an F into an... A? S? I dunno I'd have to think about it more. It's really strong now though. As MamasToast (LOL - great name) mentioned, the new sorcerer subclasses are pretty sexy.
I think that the Psi Knight is strong in that it gives the fighter class exactly what it needs to optimize damage output while having good tanking utility. Quick trip att... I mean telekinetic thrust and you're in a prime position to action surge your arsenal of extra attacks into a helpless enemy. Does it have the versatility of Battle Master? No, but its efficient and you have a lot more psi-dice than superiority dice. Additionally, it has a stronger stillness of mind given that you don't need to use an action to dispell, and I would argue it's strong on a class that doesn't have a wisdom saving throw proficiency. Finally, the defensive options for PK are very nice. Protective field is a nice low level way to reduce damage, while bulwark of force seems really strong given that it ups your whole party's defensive capabilities immediately. Finally telekinesis for free?!?! And you get an attack with it. I feel like this subclass is a tank's wet dream.
Maybe the problem I have conceptually with the monk is that it's raelly hard to.. sort of.. customize. to build upon.. A lot of the subclasses give alternatives to martial arts which are just.. worse than than punching.. I just feel like they're in an odd place...But you're right.. their new options do help a bit, that's true.
I really love the concept of path of the beast myself.. although I feel like the could've leaned even more into the transformation becoming more extreme as you level up.. Their natural weapons don't scale at all either and which will become kinda awkward once your allies start finding cool magical weapons.. So.. love the idea.. the execution is a solid.. "alright" ^^.
Haha and thank you for the name thing :P I actually get a strange amount of attentino for it sometimes.
Honestly, My favorite clerics came with this new book. I really love both monks, and both sorcerers are a game changer for the sorcerer class a whole. I really dislike wild shape so having alternatives for wild shape is great. (Spores druid is one of my favorite subclasses). I think most of the new stuff lends itself to customization. Its just a matter of if they inspire particularly inspire you. For me, all of the new stuff was inspirational, except ironically the new bard.
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Yeah Path of the Beast actually runs into the same issue that Monks have - not a lot of magic items/weapons/feats for natural and unarmed attacks. As things progress a GM would need to homebrew some magic items to augment those attacks or the monk and Path of the Beast barbarian would fall behind.