Warforged have souls, just like humans have souls. We don't have a way to prove it, but we just decided that we have souls, so for all purposes of talking about whether other things have souls, they do. If they can decide that they have souls, they have souls.
A brain kept alive in a jar would be capable of thought, it might even have consciousness and be aware of its surroundings, if the jar in which it was kept was sufficiently designed.
What about a homunculus? It can move, it can think, it can perceive and react to its surroundings?
By Descartian logic, the brain in the jar and the Homunculus would both have souls, despite thought being nothing but a chemical process, and the Homunculus being nothing more than a magically generated puppet, who only possesses the illusion of life.
What about beasts and creatures that are incapable of intelligent though, do they not have souls, because they can’t choose to have one?
Also, warforged are created by mortals via an artificial practice. So, in creating living beings, who are not just alive, but also poses a soul, have mortals become gods? Do gods even exist, or are will all nothing more than dust upon the wind, that through a series of accidents has clumped together to form a being, that for a moment, believes itself to be alive?
In short, if warforged can have souls, what does that say all the other biological races? What does that say about us?
The thing is, where do these souls come from? If they are created by mortals then yes, that raises some profound questions about what separates mortals from deities, but nothing in Eberron lore suggests that's likely. They might be souls drawn from some kind of Limbo, they might be souls provided by an actual god for some ineffable purpose, they might even come from a gruesome baby factory where newborns are slain and their souls harvested. Nobody currently alive in canon Eberron knows how the process to create Warforged works. It's quite possible nobody ever really knew, even before the Last War erased it from living memory.
The questions you are asking can be very interesting to explore in game, but with the information you are presenting right now it's nothing but speculation and idle thought. If you want to pursue this kind of philosophical debate as part of a campaign, I think you'll have to commit more to one or a few fundamental choices and narrow the possibilities.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
As stated by others earlier in the thread, creating a soul or creating a vessel for a soul isn't that hard. Any fertile male-female couple can do so fairly easily. Being a parent doesn't make you a god.
Creating offspring is easy, but how does it get its soul? Is it something that grows from the moment of conception, like the physical body develops? Is it imparted by some extremely powerful being? Is there a finite number and souls just get reincarnated time and again? Ask a dozen priests from as many different religions and you'll likely get 13 different answers...
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Do warforged have souls? Yes, unequivocally so. If they didn't, you wouldn't be able to cast resurrection spells on them.
"Where do warforged souls come from?" is a different question, and it's one that the official published Eberron setting deliberately refuses to answer, because it's one of those mysteries that are explicitly up to the individual DM to explain if they want to. There are lot of various ideas in this thread, and sharing those ideas is cool and good, but it's important to point out that argument is pointless, since the canonical position is "it's up to the DM."
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature, which seems to be the most common IRL definition, I think it would be short sighting to say that things that are created via magic don't have souls. Souls in dnd have a direct impact on a creatures ability to use and manipulate magic, which would imply that they are tied to the Weave. If souls are just manifestations of magic, creatures that owe their life to magic would have more soul then creatures that don't. Warforged included. This makes Soul synonymous with magic essence which, while not perfect, is a definition that is not complicated and explains more questions than it raises, which is usually good given that the simplest solution is often the best solution.
Plus if you start saying that warforged don't have soul, then it starts getting messy with player options.
Of course, depending on the world will determine how that works. If you want to do it however you want to do it. I know that I combined world lore's when creating my definition, but that is just the way that I think about it.
As stated by others earlier in the thread, creating a soul or creating a vessel for a soul isn't that hard. Any fertile male-female couple can do so fairly easily. Being a parent doesn't make you a god.
Creating offspring is easy, but how does it get its soul? Is it something that grows from the moment of conception, like the physical body develops? Is it imparted by some extremely powerful being? Is there a finite number and souls just get reincarnated time and again? Ask a dozen priests from as many different religions and you'll likely get 13 different answers...
Exactly, that's the point of Warforged having souls in Eberron. It's to open up this discussion at the table. It's unanswerable, but still discussable.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Warforged have souls, just like humans have souls. We don't have a way to prove it, but we just decided that we have souls, so for all purposes of talking about whether other things have souls, they do. If they can decide that they have souls, they have souls.
A brain kept alive in a jar would be capable of thought, it might even have consciousness and be aware of its surroundings, if the jar in which it was kept was sufficiently designed.
What about a homunculus? It can move, it can think, it can perceive and react to its surroundings?
By Descartian logic, the brain in the jar and the Homunculus would both have souls, despite thought being nothing but a chemical process, and the Homunculus being nothing more than a magically generated puppet, who only possesses the illusion of life.
What about beasts and creatures that are incapable of intelligent though, do they not have souls, because they can’t choose to have one?
Also, warforged are created by mortals via an artificial practice. So, in creating living beings, who are not just alive, but also poses a soul, have mortals become gods? Do gods even exist, or are will all nothing more than dust upon the wind, that through a series of accidents has clumped together to form a being, that for a moment, believes itself to be alive?
In short, if warforged can have souls, what does that say all the other biological races? What does that say about us?
The thing is, where do these souls come from? If they are created by mortals then yes, that raises some profound questions about what separates mortals from deities, but nothing in Eberron lore suggests that's likely. They might be souls drawn from some kind of Limbo, they might be souls provided by an actual god for some ineffable purpose, they might even come from a gruesome baby factory where newborns are slain and their souls harvested. Nobody currently alive in canon Eberron knows how the process to create Warforged works. It's quite possible nobody ever really knew, even before the Last War erased it from living memory.
The questions you are asking can be very interesting to explore in game, but with the information you are presenting right now it's nothing but speculation and idle thought. If you want to pursue this kind of philosophical debate as part of a campaign, I think you'll have to commit more to one or a few fundamental choices and narrow the possibilities.
"Nothing in Ebberon lore suggests that that is likely"
Well yeah, but that's because Ebberon lore does not concern itself with the existence of souls. That's open to interpretation, leaving the question of "where do warforged souls come from?" essentially a non-question.
The lore doesn't suggest that souls *have* to come from somewhere, or ever suggest that souls are a finite resource resource so that the existence of new beings with souls imply they must have gotten them from somewhere. Instead, those assumptions seem to be ones you are bringing to the discussion that are however not supported in the text.
Quite the opposite, actually. What about the souls of humans? Of elves? Of shifters? Where do their souls come from when they die? Do they have to be recycled into new humans because they're some finite resource? The text never suggests this either, so if you subscribe to the belief in souls in Ebberon, then the precedent for new souls being made has already been set, so again, why would it be necessary for them to come from somewhere?
Warforged have souls, just like humans have souls. We don't have a way to prove it, but we just decided that we have souls, so for all purposes of talking about whether other things have souls, they do. If they can decide that they have souls, they have souls.
A brain kept alive in a jar would be capable of thought, it might even have consciousness and be aware of its surroundings, if the jar in which it was kept was sufficiently designed.
What about a homunculus? It can move, it can think, it can perceive and react to its surroundings?
By Descartian logic, the brain in the jar and the Homunculus would both have souls, despite thought being nothing but a chemical process, and the Homunculus being nothing more than a magically generated puppet, who only possesses the illusion of life.
What about beasts and creatures that are incapable of intelligent though, do they not have souls, because they can’t choose to have one?
Also, warforged are created by mortals via an artificial practice. So, in creating living beings, who are not just alive, but also poses a soul, have mortals become gods? Do gods even exist, or are will all nothing more than dust upon the wind, that through a series of accidents has clumped together to form a being, that for a moment, believes itself to be alive?
In short, if warforged can have souls, what does that say all the other biological races? What does that say about us?
The thing is, where do these souls come from? If they are created by mortals then yes, that raises some profound questions about what separates mortals from deities, but nothing in Eberron lore suggests that's likely. They might be souls drawn from some kind of Limbo, they might be souls provided by an actual god for some ineffable purpose, they might even come from a gruesome baby factory where newborns are slain and their souls harvested. Nobody currently alive in canon Eberron knows how the process to create Warforged works. It's quite possible nobody ever really knew, even before the Last War erased it from living memory.
The questions you are asking can be very interesting to explore in game, but with the information you are presenting right now it's nothing but speculation and idle thought. If you want to pursue this kind of philosophical debate as part of a campaign, I think you'll have to commit more to one or a few fundamental choices and narrow the possibilities.
"Nothing in Ebberon lore suggests that that is likely"
Well yeah, but that's because Ebberon lore does not concern itself with the existence of souls. That's open to interpretation, leaving the question of "where do warforged souls come from?" essentially a non-question.
The lore doesn't suggest that souls *have* to come from somewhere, or ever suggest that souls are a finite records resource so that the existence of new beings with souls must have gotten them from somewhere. Instead, those assumptions seem to be ones you are bringing to the discussion that are however not supported in the text.
Quite the opposite, actually. What about the souls of humans? Of elves? Of shifters? Where do their souls come from when they die? Do they have to be recycled into new humans because they're some finite resource? The text never suggests this either, so if you subscribe to the belief in souls in Ebberon, then the precedent for new souls being made has already been set, so again, why would it be necessary for them to come from somewhere?
The existence of souls in Eberron isn't really debatable. Souls exist; lots of magic relies on the existence of souls and that magic works in Eberron as well as in any other setting. People even know what happens to people's souls after they die: they go to Dolurrh where they're stripped of memory and identity over the course of (usually) about a month, before they pass through some final gate. The ultimate fate of the soul is unknown, and if that fate is relevant to a campaign, the DM can decide whatever they like.
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature, which seems to be the most common IRL definition, I think it would be short sighting to say that things that are created via magic don't have souls. Souls in dnd have a direct impact on a creatures ability to use and manipulate magic, which would imply that they are tied to the Weave. If souls are just manifestations of magic, creatures that owe their life to magic would have more soul then creatures that don't. Warforged included. This makes Soul synonymous with magic essence which, while not perfect, is a definition that is not complicated and explains more questions than it raises, which is usually good given that the simplest solution is often the best solution.
Plus if you start saying that warforged don't have soul, then it starts getting messy with player options.
Of course, depending on the world will determine how that works. If you want to do it however you want to do it. I know that I combined world lore's when creating my definition, but that is just the way that I think about it.
Pinnochio want to be a "real boy". I'd say on the soul level, one would be hard pressed to say he wasn't a "real boy" all along. Warforged are in the same boat, constructs that are somehow imbued with a soul, it's how the economy of soul or how soul's are trafficked in Eberron.
But I agree that this is more an open ended topic and a definitive answer is literally not in any extant Eberron on D&D lore.
Question, has any PC from an "organic" race reincarnated as Warforged? I wouldn't have a problem with this.
It's clear from discussion on this board D&D games are very "relative" when it comes to moral constructs in their game (good/evil, law/chaos, alignment). And that's totally fine, and I'd say a good thing, so to speak. I'd also say questions like the Warforged and "where do souls come from?" being open ended by design allows the game to metaphysically and existentially relative too. I think that's also a good thing.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Ah, well in that case that emphasizes my point even moreso. There is a precedent for new souls being created in every other race, so the implication that souls have to come from somewhere in the case of warforged is not supported in lore. They just are, as with everyone else, and I don't see anything weird about that.
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature, which seems to be the most common IRL definition, I think it would be short sighting to say that things that are created via magic don't have souls. Souls in dnd have a direct impact on a creatures ability to use and manipulate magic, which would imply that they are tied to the Weave. If souls are just manifestations of magic, creatures that owe their life to magic would have more soul then creatures that don't. Warforged included. This makes Soul synonymous with magic essence which, while not perfect, is a definition that is not complicated and explains more questions than it raises, which is usually good given that the simplest solution is often the best solution.
Plus if you start saying that warforged don't have soul, then it starts getting messy with player options.
Of course, depending on the world will determine how that works. If you want to do it however you want to do it. I know that I combined world lore's when creating my definition, but that is just the way that I think about it.
Pinnochio want to be a "real boy". I'd say on the soul level, one would be hard pressed to say he wasn't a "real boy" all along. Warforged are in the same boat, constructs that are somehow imbued with a soul, it's how the economy of soul or how soul's are trafficked in Eberron.
I would hesitate to use Pinocchio as an example, as his is a fairy tale designed to convey a specific moral lesson (good and selfless behavior will be rewarded), rather than to educate on the metaphysics of the origin of the soul. His "realness" is more of a reward to strive for, when on paper what he actually gains through not being made of wood anymore is more along the lines of acceptance by the community, ability to live a normal life and grow. Those two things are directly tied to being "real" because of the world he lives in and its presumed attitude towards wooden puppet children.
I think Pinocchio could live pretty happily in Ebberon without being turned into flesh-and-blood. It's not like something they haven't seen before.
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
Real world definitions aren't great, but they're the closest thing we have for comparison. If you google the definition of a soul, this is what shows up:
the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
This is also very, very vague, and doesn't match up with Eberron, where old souls are destroyed and new ones are reborn every second. There is a disparity, but the essence of a soul in D&D worlds has to be fairly close to a definition from the real world, or else it would be completely different and need a different name.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature
This is slightly off topic, but I do something slightly different. The soul is the culmination of all of who that person is, the sum of all of their metaphysical parts. The spirit is the vessel that contains the soul. When a creature dies, their soul is contained within their spirit, which is basically your ghost. Spirits are worthless, merely intended for transportation or physical interaction with the vessel that contains the soul, while the soul has actual value and power, as it is you. Selling your soul to a devil is literally giving yourself as a slave to the devils, and allowing them to change the person you are into a monstrous embodiment of law and evil. Warlocks get magic because their patron permanently alters their soul, allowing them to channel magical energy from it.
Creatures without a soul don't have sentience (high intelligence) and don't have passion (high charisma). Golems don't have souls (they're animated through elemental spirits, and don't contain a soul), Owlbears don't have souls, and Steel Defenders don't have souls, as they don't have sentience and don't have passions. Wisdom isn't tied to having a soul or not, that is how perceptive you are, which has to do with your body more than your soul. Everything that isn't a part of your soul is a part of your body. Your physical might (STR) is a part of your body, your agility (DEX) is part of your body, and your health (CON) is part of your body.
(Your mind, will, and heart are also different, but are contained within your soul. Your mind is your knowledge, memories, brain-power, and intelligence. Your will is your mental resilience, sanity, agency, devotion, and "will to live". Your heart is your empathy, decisiveness, and charisma.)
tl;dr: Souls are your personality, individuality, mentality, and behavior, while your spirit is the vessel that holds the soul when someone dies. All of your mental ability scores (INT, CHA, and some of WIS) are contained within your soul, causing the soul to be the root of magic for PC, while your physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON, and some of WIS) are contained within your body.
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
Real world definitions aren't great, but they're the closest thing we have for comparison. If you google the definition of a soul, this is what shows up:
the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
This is also very, very vague, and doesn't match up with Eberron, where old souls are destroyed and new ones are reborn every second. There is a disparity, but the essence of a soul in D&D worlds has to be fairly close to a definition from the real world, or else it would be completely different and need a different name.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature
This is slightly off topic, but I do something slightly different. The soul is the culmination of all of who that person is, the sum of all of their metaphysical parts. The spirit is the vessel that contains the soul. When a creature dies, their soul is contained within their spirit, which is basically your ghost. Spirits are worthless, merely intended for transportation or physical interaction with the vessel that contains the soul, while the soul has actual value and power, as it is you. Selling your soul to a devil is literally giving yourself as a slave to the devils, and allowing them to change the person you are into a monstrous embodiment of law and evil. Warlocks get magic because their patron permanently alters their soul, allowing them to channel magical energy from it.
Creatures without a soul don't have sentience (high intelligence) and don't have passion (high charisma). Golems don't have souls (they're animated through elemental spirits, and don't contain a soul), Owlbears don't have souls, and Steel Defenders don't have souls, as they don't have sentience and don't have passions. Wisdom isn't tied to having a soul or not, that is how perceptive you are, which has to do with your body more than your soul. Everything that isn't a part of your soul is a part of your body. Your physical might (STR) is a part of your body, your agility (DEX) is part of your body, and your health (CON) is part of your body.
(Your mind, will, and heart are also different, but are contained within your soul. Your mind is your knowledge, memories, brain-power, and intelligence. Your will is your mental resilience, sanity, agency, devotion, and "will to live". Your heart is your empathy, decisiveness, and charisma.)
tl;dr: Souls are your personality, individuality, mentality, and behavior, while your spirit is the vessel that holds the soul when someone dies. All of your mental ability scores (INT, CHA, and some of WIS) are contained within your soul, causing the soul to be the root of magic for PC, while your physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON, and some of WIS) are contained within your body.
That is as perfect a definition as anything else. Like I said, it depends very heavily on who you are and how the world works. It's the same with IRL definitions. It depends on who you are and how you belive the world works.
I was attempting to define Soul with the realm of the game that doesn't complicate the game mechanically, while also attempting to remove any comparisons to IRL interpretations of soul, given that soul IRL is something imperceivable but in DND it is something that is perceivable and manipulatable.
My personal definition of soul is something that influences literally every aspect of my life and is honestly more complicated then would be communicable on a forum without completely changing the topic of conversation of this thread.
Sidebar - I usually don't trust the first google result that comes up. I usually fish around and find several things related to the topic I'm searching so I have a better idea of the topic. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Google just has lost my trust after they tried to tell me that Mediation and Adjudication are the same thing when they are related but not synonymous.
I would say that Waterford definitely do have souls, it’s not that house Cannith is able to just make souls, they copied technology from Xen’drik witch was made by quori. Where their souls actually come from is a mystery and up to you. Maybe they are recycled souls from the plane of the dead witch spelling escapes me. When you kill a warforged you can bring it back to life because it’s soul went to the plane of the dead. Also, as a player or DM what story do you want to tell. Who wants to play an empty hunk of wood and metal? It’s definitely true that there are people who believe that that’s exactly what warfoged are, but it’s how that character proves them wrong that makes a great story
They are PCs. Every type of raise dead spell works on them so they have to have souls.
Oh, I like this.
RAW, spells only do what they say they can do. No more or less.
Raise Dead: You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point.
I find this whole thing intriguing, because where do they get their souls from, if indeed the have one? Dose the magics that that create them include some kind of necromancy, that takes a soul and stuffs it Into a mechanical machine, thereby creating a living machine with a soul?
Moradin literally forges every single dwarf soul into being. I assume a similar process happens with the warforged, though with a less divine source, given Eberron's wonky connection to the Great Wheel cosmology and default assumptions of the rest of the D&D greater setting. I mean, the Warforged are literally creating their own god.
I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
In any case, the Warforged that is a player character is by definition a "humanoid", a being with free will. This is probably the best definition of a "soul".
Probably every "living creature" is a soul, and certain sapient undead like vampire and lich are too.
But for sure, every "humanoid" is a soul.
Also, a soul isnt something one "has". A soul is something one is, a conscious being.
souls, imo, are a product of religion. since gods definitely exist in D&D i'd say yes, all sentient creatures, whether made of carbon/hydrogen/oxygen or pure iron, have souls.
I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
In any case, the Warforged that is a player character is by definition a "humanoid", a being with free will. This is probably the best definition of a "soul".
Probably every "living creature" is a soul, and certain sapient undead like vampire and lich are too.
But for sure, every "humanoid" is a soul.
Also, a soul isnt something one "has". A soul is something one is, a conscious being.
Warforged are living constructs in 5e. While not explicitly said, they are affected by healing magic, resting and medicine checks, which if they were not living constructs that would not be the case.
The thing is, where do these souls come from? If they are created by mortals then yes, that raises some profound questions about what separates mortals from deities, but nothing in Eberron lore suggests that's likely. They might be souls drawn from some kind of Limbo, they might be souls provided by an actual god for some ineffable purpose, they might even come from a gruesome baby factory where newborns are slain and their souls harvested. Nobody currently alive in canon Eberron knows how the process to create Warforged works. It's quite possible nobody ever really knew, even before the Last War erased it from living memory.
The questions you are asking can be very interesting to explore in game, but with the information you are presenting right now it's nothing but speculation and idle thought. If you want to pursue this kind of philosophical debate as part of a campaign, I think you'll have to commit more to one or a few fundamental choices and narrow the possibilities.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Creating offspring is easy, but how does it get its soul? Is it something that grows from the moment of conception, like the physical body develops? Is it imparted by some extremely powerful being? Is there a finite number and souls just get reincarnated time and again? Ask a dozen priests from as many different religions and you'll likely get 13 different answers...
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Do warforged have souls? Yes, unequivocally so. If they didn't, you wouldn't be able to cast resurrection spells on them.
"Where do warforged souls come from?" is a different question, and it's one that the official published Eberron setting deliberately refuses to answer, because it's one of those mysteries that are explicitly up to the individual DM to explain if they want to. There are lot of various ideas in this thread, and sharing those ideas is cool and good, but it's important to point out that argument is pointless, since the canonical position is "it's up to the DM."
I think there is another question at play here. What is a soul?
We don't have a clear proven definition within our world. The most consistent thing is the incorporeal essence of a creature, but there is a massive delimitation when discussing philosophical definitions of soul, Spiritual definitions of soul, religious definition of soul, and even scientific definitions of soul (or psyche as it was known in Greek).
But in a world where soul is a tangible thing that is tied to divinity and magic. Our real world definitions are nonapplicable.
I would argue that if soul is just the incorporeal essence of a creature, which seems to be the most common IRL definition, I think it would be short sighting to say that things that are created via magic don't have souls. Souls in dnd have a direct impact on a creatures ability to use and manipulate magic, which would imply that they are tied to the Weave. If souls are just manifestations of magic, creatures that owe their life to magic would have more soul then creatures that don't. Warforged included. This makes Soul synonymous with magic essence which, while not perfect, is a definition that is not complicated and explains more questions than it raises, which is usually good given that the simplest solution is often the best solution.
Plus if you start saying that warforged don't have soul, then it starts getting messy with player options.
Of course, depending on the world will determine how that works. If you want to do it however you want to do it. I know that I combined world lore's when creating my definition, but that is just the way that I think about it.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Exactly, that's the point of Warforged having souls in Eberron. It's to open up this discussion at the table. It's unanswerable, but still discussable.
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"Nothing in Ebberon lore suggests that that is likely"
Well yeah, but that's because Ebberon lore does not concern itself with the existence of souls. That's open to interpretation, leaving the question of "where do warforged souls come from?" essentially a non-question.
The lore doesn't suggest that souls *have* to come from somewhere, or ever suggest that souls are a finite resource resource so that the existence of new beings with souls imply they must have gotten them from somewhere. Instead, those assumptions seem to be ones you are bringing to the discussion that are however not supported in the text.
Quite the opposite, actually. What about the souls of humans? Of elves? Of shifters? Where do their souls come from when they die? Do they have to be recycled into new humans because they're some finite resource? The text never suggests this either, so if you subscribe to the belief in souls in Ebberon, then the precedent for new souls being made has already been set, so again, why would it be necessary for them to come from somewhere?
The existence of souls in Eberron isn't really debatable. Souls exist; lots of magic relies on the existence of souls and that magic works in Eberron as well as in any other setting. People even know what happens to people's souls after they die: they go to Dolurrh where they're stripped of memory and identity over the course of (usually) about a month, before they pass through some final gate. The ultimate fate of the soul is unknown, and if that fate is relevant to a campaign, the DM can decide whatever they like.
Pinnochio want to be a "real boy". I'd say on the soul level, one would be hard pressed to say he wasn't a "real boy" all along. Warforged are in the same boat, constructs that are somehow imbued with a soul, it's how the economy of soul or how soul's are trafficked in Eberron.
But I agree that this is more an open ended topic and a definitive answer is literally not in any extant Eberron on D&D lore.
Question, has any PC from an "organic" race reincarnated as Warforged? I wouldn't have a problem with this.
It's clear from discussion on this board D&D games are very "relative" when it comes to moral constructs in their game (good/evil, law/chaos, alignment). And that's totally fine, and I'd say a good thing, so to speak. I'd also say questions like the Warforged and "where do souls come from?" being open ended by design allows the game to metaphysically and existentially relative too. I think that's also a good thing.
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Ah, well in that case that emphasizes my point even moreso. There is a precedent for new souls being created in every other race, so the implication that souls have to come from somewhere in the case of warforged is not supported in lore. They just are, as with everyone else, and I don't see anything weird about that.
I would hesitate to use Pinocchio as an example, as his is a fairy tale designed to convey a specific moral lesson (good and selfless behavior will be rewarded), rather than to educate on the metaphysics of the origin of the soul. His "realness" is more of a reward to strive for, when on paper what he actually gains through not being made of wood anymore is more along the lines of acceptance by the community, ability to live a normal life and grow. Those two things are directly tied to being "real" because of the world he lives in and its presumed attitude towards wooden puppet children.
I think Pinocchio could live pretty happily in Ebberon without being turned into flesh-and-blood. It's not like something they haven't seen before.
Real world definitions aren't great, but they're the closest thing we have for comparison. If you google the definition of a soul, this is what shows up:
This is slightly off topic, but I do something slightly different. The soul is the culmination of all of who that person is, the sum of all of their metaphysical parts. The spirit is the vessel that contains the soul. When a creature dies, their soul is contained within their spirit, which is basically your ghost. Spirits are worthless, merely intended for transportation or physical interaction with the vessel that contains the soul, while the soul has actual value and power, as it is you. Selling your soul to a devil is literally giving yourself as a slave to the devils, and allowing them to change the person you are into a monstrous embodiment of law and evil. Warlocks get magic because their patron permanently alters their soul, allowing them to channel magical energy from it.
Creatures without a soul don't have sentience (high intelligence) and don't have passion (high charisma). Golems don't have souls (they're animated through elemental spirits, and don't contain a soul), Owlbears don't have souls, and Steel Defenders don't have souls, as they don't have sentience and don't have passions. Wisdom isn't tied to having a soul or not, that is how perceptive you are, which has to do with your body more than your soul. Everything that isn't a part of your soul is a part of your body. Your physical might (STR) is a part of your body, your agility (DEX) is part of your body, and your health (CON) is part of your body.
(Your mind, will, and heart are also different, but are contained within your soul. Your mind is your knowledge, memories, brain-power, and intelligence. Your will is your mental resilience, sanity, agency, devotion, and "will to live". Your heart is your empathy, decisiveness, and charisma.)
tl;dr: Souls are your personality, individuality, mentality, and behavior, while your spirit is the vessel that holds the soul when someone dies. All of your mental ability scores (INT, CHA, and some of WIS) are contained within your soul, causing the soul to be the root of magic for PC, while your physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON, and some of WIS) are contained within your body.
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That is as perfect a definition as anything else. Like I said, it depends very heavily on who you are and how the world works. It's the same with IRL definitions. It depends on who you are and how you belive the world works.
I was attempting to define Soul with the realm of the game that doesn't complicate the game mechanically, while also attempting to remove any comparisons to IRL interpretations of soul, given that soul IRL is something imperceivable but in DND it is something that is perceivable and manipulatable.
My personal definition of soul is something that influences literally every aspect of my life and is honestly more complicated then would be communicable on a forum without completely changing the topic of conversation of this thread.
Sidebar - I usually don't trust the first google result that comes up. I usually fish around and find several things related to the topic I'm searching so I have a better idea of the topic. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Google just has lost my trust after they tried to tell me that Mediation and Adjudication are the same thing when they are related but not synonymous.
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I would say that Waterford definitely do have souls, it’s not that house Cannith is able to just make souls, they copied technology from Xen’drik witch was made by quori. Where their souls actually come from is a mystery and up to you. Maybe they are recycled souls from the plane of the dead witch spelling escapes me. When you kill a warforged you can bring it back to life because it’s soul went to the plane of the dead. Also, as a player or DM what story do you want to tell. Who wants to play an empty hunk of wood and metal? It’s definitely true that there are people who believe that that’s exactly what warfoged are, but it’s how that character proves them wrong that makes a great story
They are PCs. Every type of raise dead spell works on them so they have to have souls.
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RAW, spells only do what they say they can do. No more or less.
Raise Dead: You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point.
Case closed.
Moradin literally forges every single dwarf soul into being. I assume a similar process happens with the warforged, though with a less divine source, given Eberron's wonky connection to the Great Wheel cosmology and default assumptions of the rest of the D&D greater setting. I mean, the Warforged are literally creating their own god.
Re the original post.
I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
In any case, the Warforged that is a player character is by definition a "humanoid", a being with free will. This is probably the best definition of a "soul".
Probably every "living creature" is a soul, and certain sapient undead like vampire and lich are too.
But for sure, every "humanoid" is a soul.
Also, a soul isnt something one "has". A soul is something one is, a conscious being.
he / him
souls, imo, are a product of religion. since gods definitely exist in D&D i'd say yes, all sentient creatures, whether made of carbon/hydrogen/oxygen or pure iron, have souls.
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Warforged are living constructs in 5e. While not explicitly said, they are affected by healing magic, resting and medicine checks, which if they were not living constructs that would not be the case.
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