I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
They themselves are not dead. Their manifestation, their being on the Material Plane, on the other hand is (or has perished, at least). That’s pretty much what all undead have in common.
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I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
you are making some assumptions here for sake of making them... maybe just missunderstanding... being alive means your body is alive, the lich body isn't ! it doesn't eat, it doesn't drink, it doesn't sleep. all these are part of a normal "LIVING" body. the lich body is dead. it decays even. eventually the body of the lich becomes just a skeleton animated by magic. the very definition of a lich. in the book if you read the descriptions, they even go in details as to how a wizard becomes a lich by literally killing himself but finding a way to preserve his soul from going to the afterlife.
to understand all of this, you need to understand the whole planar wheel. when one dies in any realms... they go to their respective gods planes. aka a cleric of the morning lord dies in combat against a fiend after a few years of services... his body is left out to decay, but his soul goes to the after life. it actually goes to the plane of his deity, in this case the morning lord. what makes an undead, undead... is the fact that its body is not alive, its heart has stopped beating, and its decaying. and it somehow is kept "alive" in quotes because its not really alive, by powerful magic. aka zombies, vampires, lich, mummies... all of those are magically alive. same with ghost and the likes who just by force of pure will stopped their own ascension to the other planes. they dont have bodes so they have magic, energies to keep them up.
now knowing this, how does a lich be undead ? well it has all the criteria of an undead... - it has a dead body which is decaying over time - it has magically kept its soul on this plan of existence. - it uses magic to keep his body moving. - force of will is extremely important, lich that goes nuts becomes demiliches.
all these is why its an undead creature and not anything else. i highly suggest you read the descriptions of the monsters from the actual source book, they have much clearer explanations of things. the monsters in the monster section, have "snippet" description. just the bare minimum. exemple of yuan-tis who also have much more explanation in the monster manual then there is in the actual monster. same for kobolds where you can learn their actual mating sessions !!! advice don't read that, it will change your whole perspective on kobolds forever. and i mean burning that into your skull, never to be erased.
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I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
what makes an undead, undead... is the fact that its body is not alive, its heart has stopped beating, and its decaying. and it somehow is kept "alive" in quotes because its not really alive, by powerful magic. aka zombies, vampires, lich, mummies... all of those are magically alive. same with ghost and the likes who just by force of pure will stopped their own ascension to the other planes. they dont have bodes so they have magic, energies to keep them up.
now knowing this, how does a lich be undead ? well it has all the criteria of an undead... - it has a dead body which is decaying over time - it has magically kept its soul on this plan of existence. - it uses magic to keep his body moving. - force of will is extremely important, lich that goes nuts becomes demiliches.
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
what makes an undead, undead... is the fact that its body is not alive, its heart has stopped beating, and its decaying. and it somehow is kept "alive" in quotes because its not really alive, by powerful magic. aka zombies, vampires, lich, mummies... all of those are magically alive. same with ghost and the likes who just by force of pure will stopped their own ascension to the other planes. they dont have bodes so they have magic, energies to keep them up.
now knowing this, how does a lich be undead ? well it has all the criteria of an undead... - it has a dead body which is decaying over time - it has magically kept its soul on this plan of existence. - it uses magic to keep his body moving. - force of will is extremely important, lich that goes nuts becomes demiliches.
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
Warforged aren't undead, because they were never alive in the first place.
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I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
Flesh Golems are not undead because they don't have souls or compulsions. All undead, including liches, have compulsions. Flesh golems are just mindlessly obedient constructs.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
Warforged aren't undead, because they were never alive in the first place.
Per the game definitions, Warforged are considered alive. And, more to the point of your comment here, we Don't Know how Warforged came into existence. The official lore leaves that blank for the DM to fill in.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
Flesh Golems are not undead because they don't have souls or compulsions. All undead, including liches, have compulsions. Flesh golems are just mindlessly obedient constructs.
Flesh Golems are animated by means of a ritual that includes binding a soul (or multiples?) to the stitched together corpses of many humanoids, typically. That is why there is chance that the Flesh Golem can become uncontrollable. Not unlike a Demi-Lich, actually...
That is still very incomplete though. Ghosts, Wraiths, Shadows have no body whatsoever. And some Undead can possess the bodies of other creatures. So why are Ghosts, Wraiths, Vampires, Zombies and Liches grouped together besides "the rules say so"?
If a wizard somewhere animates a Flesh Golem using a soul that used to be connected to one of the bodies used to make the Flesh Golem, is the Flesh Golem then an Undead creature? Clearly, it's not so straightforward.
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
The DM, being the DM, can say what he wants. However, the rules in the Warforged racial entry don’t say they are undead. Mechanics that affect the living differently than undead work on Warforged the same way they work on the living. Nothing in the rules supports the notion Warforged are undead. If you want them to be in your campaign, you can make them so - all it takes is saying they are, and apply relevant mechanics accordingly - but canonically, they are alive.
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I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
what makes an undead, undead... is the fact that its body is not alive, its heart has stopped beating, and its decaying. and it somehow is kept "alive" in quotes because its not really alive, by powerful magic. aka zombies, vampires, lich, mummies... all of those are magically alive. same with ghost and the likes who just by force of pure will stopped their own ascension to the other planes. they dont have bodes so they have magic, energies to keep them up.
now knowing this, how does a lich be undead ? well it has all the criteria of an undead... - it has a dead body which is decaying over time - it has magically kept its soul on this plan of existence. - it uses magic to keep his body moving. - force of will is extremely important, lich that goes nuts becomes demiliches.
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
Not all magic is the same. The magic that animates the undead does not grant them life. The magic that animates warforged do grant them life.
If going by RAW, then no, the DM cannot just say the Warforged are undead. It is very clear in the rules that the warforged and undead are different, and the D&D universe also considers them different.
It is like saying since we do not know the exactly how magic works in D&D, the DM can just say that fireball also deals radiant damage because fire in real life gives off radiation.
I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
The defining thing is that magic that grants warforged life just grants them life, and the magic that animates the undead just animates them without giving them life.
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
Warforged aren't undead, because they were never alive in the first place.
Per the game definitions, Warforged are considered alive. And, more to the point of your comment here, we Don't Know how Warforged came into existence. The official lore leaves that blank for the DM to fill in.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
Flesh Golems are not undead because they don't have souls or compulsions. All undead, including liches, have compulsions. Flesh golems are just mindlessly obedient constructs.
Flesh Golems are animated by means of a ritual that includes binding a soul (or multiples?) to the stitched together corpses of many humanoids, typically. That is why there is chance that the Flesh Golem can become uncontrollable. Not unlike a Demi-Lich, actually...
I think you should cite your sources to double check your information, cause I do not remember anywhere stating that making flesh golems requiring souls. Making a flesh golem requires a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not a soul. And if you are using a manual of flesh golems, you can probably even skip using the spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth, since nowhere does it say that you need one if you are using the manual.
Sorry, how is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth not a soul?
"Animates" vs. "gives them life". Maybe it would help if you could define them as being distinct from each other? Sure, a skeleton is just an animated set of bones that used to belong to one creature, but a Vampire or a Lich has consciousness. Vampires and Liches makes decisions, have desires, can form arguments, etc. This is a far leap from merely being "animated."
Yes, the rules considers Warforged different from Undead, but there is no lore explaining it because the origin of the Warforged has been intentionally left blank. So Warforged Could be a New form of Undead, one the responds to healing magic by healing. If human beings IRL can program robots to respond to certain stimuli such that robots can be said to feel pain, the sky's the limit for fantasy techno-wizards, right?
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
Whose soul do you think a ghost has? Or a revenant? Retaining the soul does not equal 'alive,' particularly if the original body is gone....
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
Flesh Golems are not undead because they don't have souls or compulsions. All undead, including liches, have compulsions. Flesh golems are just mindlessly obedient constructs.
Flesh Golems are animated by means of a ritual that includes binding a soul (or multiples?) to the stitched together corpses of many humanoids, typically. That is why there is chance that the Flesh Golem can become uncontrollable. Not unlike a Demi-Lich, actually...
My answer on that is that, as confirmed by your description, the souls are bound into the makeshift body rather than original to it. A sword with a soul trapped inside it powering it and/or giving it a personality is similarly not considered undead, nor is a soul trapped in a gem of soul trapping, or trapped via the Trap the Soul spell.
A Lich or Demi-Lich, on the other hand, retains a connection to the remains of the original body.
To become undead, you have to die. Your physical manifestation has to perish. The difference between dead and undead is what happens with your soul - that either moves on to, quite literally, an afterlife (dead) or doesn’t (undead). What happens with it instead of moving on determines the kind of undead. The thing is that the afterlife part is the great unknown. It’s unclear what happens to a soul there. Maybe it stays in Heaven or Hell forever. Maybe it moves on to an after-afterlife after a while. Maybe it eventually gets recycled and is reincarnated to start over again. Maybe it can be brought back by mere mortals, maybe it can’t. A sword with a soul inside could be undead, or it could not be. Depending on your definition of life, it could even effectively be alive. But what determines whether it’s undead or not is what kind of soul it is - one that has not gone to an afterlife after dying, or one that has. Not how it ended up in the sword, but whether it had moved on first or not.
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Thank you, Pangjuran, for actually attempting to answer my question directly.
Considering that the afterlife is "to be determined" by the DM and the origin of Warforged is also "to be determined" by the DM, that still leaves a lot of room to say that Warforged are a technological breakthrough for the creation of Undead without actually breaking from the lore. For all we know, the soul in a Warforged used to be attached to the body of a cat, or a giant, or a tiefling.
Yes, the rules considers Warforged different from Undead, but there is no lore explaining it because the origin of the Warforged has been intentionally left blank. So Warforged Could be a New form of Undead, one the responds to healing magic by healing.
If something doesn’t interact with the rules like an undead, what makes it undead? Other than merely saying “it’s undead, even if it doesn’t follow the rules undead do”?
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Thank you, Pangjuran, for actually attempting to answer my question directly.
Considering that the afterlife is "to be determined" by the DM and the origin of Warforged is also "to be determined" by the DM, that still leaves a lot of room to say that Warforged are a technological breakthrough for the creation of Undead without actually breaking from the lore. For all we know, the soul in a Warforged used to be attached to the body of a cat, or a giant, or a tiefling.
Yes, a Warforged’s soul could previously have been a cat’s, a giant’s or a tiefling’s. It could have been all three of those at some point. It could have been scrubbed clean and reincarnated a thousand times before getting the Warforged treatment, or it could be brand-spanking new. But that is entirely immaterial with regards to being undead or not. There is no lore to break away from. There are rules to break away from though.
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My point is that the soul of a dead creature, instead of passing to an afterlife, could have been used to imbue a manufactured body in the process creating the Warforged. As such, the Warforged would be Undead, albeit a special type that actually benefits from healing spells. "It's a New and Improved design, dontchaknow?"
Yes, the rules considers Warforged different from Undead, but there is no lore explaining it because the origin of the Warforged has been intentionally left blank. So Warforged Could be a New form of Undead, one the responds to healing magic by healing.
If something doesn’t interact with the rules like an undead, what makes it undead? Other than merely saying “it’s undead, even if it doesn’t follow the rules undead do”?
Well, for storytelling purposes certainly. For instance, it would be interesting if the body of a creature wth a non-original soul meets the Warforged one day and the Warforged says, "Hey, I feel strangely drawn to that body. I don't know why, but it seems so familiar." Seriously, it would make a little more sense as to why the technique for creating Warforged disappeared. Making a body with soul that has all the attributes of an organic body but not be vulnerable to sleep, not have to eat, and not be restricted by a lifespan? That's some seriously valuable magical technique. A lot of people would give up their fortunes or their land to become impervious to typical aging. (Think of how much more Jobs or Tesla could have accomplished if they never died.) Having the knowledge to make Waforged be banned or forcibly forgotten because of its murderous and otherwise dangerous implications would be pretty logical.
My point is that the soul of a dead creature, instead of passing to an afterlife, could have been used to imbue a manufactured body in the process creating the Warforged. As such, the Warforged would be Undead, albeit a special type that actually benefits from healing spells. "It's a New and Improved design, dontchaknow?"
My point, and I believe that of others as well, is that this constitutes homebrew. Undead that benefit from healing spells are homebrew. At that point, you can do anything. It doesn’t really matter what the lore or the rules or general convention says. You’re creating something that doesn’t (have to) conform to any of that anyway.
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I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
They themselves are not dead. Their manifestation, their being on the Material Plane, on the other hand is (or has perished, at least). That’s pretty much what all undead have in common.
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you are making some assumptions here for sake of making them... maybe just missunderstanding...
being alive means your body is alive, the lich body isn't ! it doesn't eat, it doesn't drink, it doesn't sleep. all these are part of a normal "LIVING" body. the lich body is dead. it decays even. eventually the body of the lich becomes just a skeleton animated by magic. the very definition of a lich. in the book if you read the descriptions, they even go in details as to how a wizard becomes a lich by literally killing himself but finding a way to preserve his soul from going to the afterlife.
to understand all of this, you need to understand the whole planar wheel.
when one dies in any realms... they go to their respective gods planes. aka a cleric of the morning lord dies in combat against a fiend after a few years of services... his body is left out to decay, but his soul goes to the after life. it actually goes to the plane of his deity, in this case the morning lord. what makes an undead, undead... is the fact that its body is not alive, its heart has stopped beating, and its decaying. and it somehow is kept "alive" in quotes because its not really alive, by powerful magic. aka zombies, vampires, lich, mummies... all of those are magically alive. same with ghost and the likes who just by force of pure will stopped their own ascension to the other planes. they dont have bodes so they have magic, energies to keep them up.
now knowing this, how does a lich be undead ?
well it has all the criteria of an undead...
- it has a dead body which is decaying over time
- it has magically kept its soul on this plan of existence.
- it uses magic to keep his body moving.
- force of will is extremely important, lich that goes nuts becomes demiliches.
all these is why its an undead creature and not anything else.
i highly suggest you read the descriptions of the monsters from the actual source book, they have much clearer explanations of things. the monsters in the monster section, have "snippet" description. just the bare minimum. exemple of yuan-tis who also have much more explanation in the monster manual then there is in the actual monster. same for kobolds where you can learn their actual mating sessions !!! advice don't read that, it will change your whole perspective on kobolds forever. and i mean burning that into your skull, never to be erased.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
What is fascinating to me is that most of these things could just as well be said of the Warforged, though. Even the dead body section...it could be that the soul in a Warforged was extracted from another body at some point. Who knows?
Magic animates a Warforged. They don't eat or breathe or grow, just like the Undead. So since we don't know the origin of Warforged, then couldn't the DM just say that Waforged are a version of the Undead?
The same thing though, could be said of Flesh Golems. Clearly there is more to being Undead than just the original body being dead. How about actually Defining what makes a creature Undead other than just saying it is or giving an incomplete answer that applies also to Constructs?
Warforged aren't undead, because they were never alive in the first place.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Flesh Golems are not undead because they don't have souls or compulsions. All undead, including liches, have compulsions. Flesh golems are just mindlessly obedient constructs.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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Per the game definitions, Warforged are considered alive. And, more to the point of your comment here, we Don't Know how Warforged came into existence. The official lore leaves that blank for the DM to fill in.
Flesh Golems are animated by means of a ritual that includes binding a soul (or multiples?) to the stitched together corpses of many humanoids, typically. That is why there is chance that the Flesh Golem can become uncontrollable. Not unlike a Demi-Lich, actually...
That is still very incomplete though. Ghosts, Wraiths, Shadows have no body whatsoever. And some Undead can possess the bodies of other creatures. So why are Ghosts, Wraiths, Vampires, Zombies and Liches grouped together besides "the rules say so"?
If a wizard somewhere animates a Flesh Golem using a soul that used to be connected to one of the bodies used to make the Flesh Golem, is the Flesh Golem then an Undead creature? Clearly, it's not so straightforward.
The DM, being the DM, can say what he wants. However, the rules in the Warforged racial entry don’t say they are undead. Mechanics that affect the living differently than undead work on Warforged the same way they work on the living. Nothing in the rules supports the notion Warforged are undead. If you want them to be in your campaign, you can make them so - all it takes is saying they are, and apply relevant mechanics accordingly - but canonically, they are alive.
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Not all magic is the same. The magic that animates the undead does not grant them life. The magic that animates warforged do grant them life.
If going by RAW, then no, the DM cannot just say the Warforged are undead. It is very clear in the rules that the warforged and undead are different, and the D&D universe also considers them different.
It is like saying since we do not know the exactly how magic works in D&D, the DM can just say that fireball also deals radiant damage because fire in real life gives off radiation.
The defining thing is that magic that grants warforged life just grants them life, and the magic that animates the undead just animates them without giving them life.
We do not know the exact process, but we do know that House Cannith invented and mass produced them, and spent a lot of time and money researching and improving them.
I think you should cite your sources to double check your information, cause I do not remember anywhere stating that making flesh golems requiring souls. Making a flesh golem requires a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not a soul. And if you are using a manual of flesh golems, you can probably even skip using the spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth, since nowhere does it say that you need one if you are using the manual.
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Sorry, how is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth not a soul?
"Animates" vs. "gives them life". Maybe it would help if you could define them as being distinct from each other? Sure, a skeleton is just an animated set of bones that used to belong to one creature, but a Vampire or a Lich has consciousness. Vampires and Liches makes decisions, have desires, can form arguments, etc. This is a far leap from merely being "animated."
Yes, the rules considers Warforged different from Undead, but there is no lore explaining it because the origin of the Warforged has been intentionally left blank. So Warforged Could be a New form of Undead, one the responds to healing magic by healing. If human beings IRL can program robots to respond to certain stimuli such that robots can be said to feel pain, the sky's the limit for fantasy techno-wizards, right?
To become undead, you have to die. Your physical manifestation has to perish. The difference between dead and undead is what happens with your soul - that either moves on to, quite literally, an afterlife (dead) or doesn’t (undead). What happens with it instead of moving on determines the kind of undead. The thing is that the afterlife part is the great unknown. It’s unclear what happens to a soul there. Maybe it stays in Heaven or Hell forever. Maybe it moves on to an after-afterlife after a while. Maybe it eventually gets recycled and is reincarnated to start over again. Maybe it can be brought back by mere mortals, maybe it can’t. A sword with a soul inside could be undead, or it could not be. Depending on your definition of life, it could even effectively be alive. But what determines whether it’s undead or not is what kind of soul it is - one that has not gone to an afterlife after dying, or one that has. Not how it ended up in the sword, but whether it had moved on first or not.
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Thank you, Pangjuran, for actually attempting to answer my question directly.
Considering that the afterlife is "to be determined" by the DM and the origin of Warforged is also "to be determined" by the DM, that still leaves a lot of room to say that Warforged are a technological breakthrough for the creation of Undead without actually breaking from the lore. For all we know, the soul in a Warforged used to be attached to the body of a cat, or a giant, or a tiefling.
If something doesn’t interact with the rules like an undead, what makes it undead? Other than merely saying “it’s undead, even if it doesn’t follow the rules undead do”?
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Yes, a Warforged’s soul could previously have been a cat’s, a giant’s or a tiefling’s. It could have been all three of those at some point. It could have been scrubbed clean and reincarnated a thousand times before getting the Warforged treatment, or it could be brand-spanking new. But that is entirely immaterial with regards to being undead or not. There is no lore to break away from. There are rules to break away from though.
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My point is that the soul of a dead creature, instead of passing to an afterlife, could have been used to imbue a manufactured body in the process creating the Warforged. As such, the Warforged would be Undead, albeit a special type that actually benefits from healing spells. "It's a New and Improved design, dontchaknow?"
Well, for storytelling purposes certainly. For instance, it would be interesting if the body of a creature wth a non-original soul meets the Warforged one day and the Warforged says, "Hey, I feel strangely drawn to that body. I don't know why, but it seems so familiar." Seriously, it would make a little more sense as to why the technique for creating Warforged disappeared. Making a body with soul that has all the attributes of an organic body but not be vulnerable to sleep, not have to eat, and not be restricted by a lifespan? That's some seriously valuable magical technique. A lot of people would give up their fortunes or their land to become impervious to typical aging. (Think of how much more Jobs or Tesla could have accomplished if they never died.) Having the knowledge to make Waforged be banned or forcibly forgotten because of its murderous and otherwise dangerous implications would be pretty logical.
My point, and I believe that of others as well, is that this constitutes homebrew. Undead that benefit from healing spells are homebrew. At that point, you can do anything. It doesn’t really matter what the lore or the rules or general convention says. You’re creating something that doesn’t (have to) conform to any of that anyway.
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