Arguably a flesh golem should be undead; I think it might not be because the animating force isn't from the shadowfell, which is what actually determines power interactions.
My point is that the soul of a dead creature, instead of passing to an afterlife, could have been used to imbue a manufactured body in the process creating the Warforged. As such, the Warforged would be Undead, albeit a special type that actually benefits from healing spells. "It's a New and Improved design, dontchaknow?"
My point, and I believe that of others as well, is that this constitutes homebrew. Undead that benefit from healing spells are homebrew. At that point, you can do anything. It doesn’t really matter what the lore or the rules or general convention says. You’re creating something that doesn’t (have to) conform to any of that anyway.
Since the people who wrote the lore left the origins of Warforged blank, then isn't homebrew really the only option to answer that question? In which case, it would be no more be homebrewed than the motivation of an NPC that is named but never "fleshed out" in one of the adventure modules. One could say that Liches are one branch of the developmental tree for post-life living and Warforged are the other.
"Warforged: Where After Life, is merely After Breathing." Keep on truckin.' Yeeeeeehaw!
Arguably a flesh golem should be undead; I think it might not be because the animating force isn't from the shadowfell, which is what actually determines power interactions.
Golems are animated through elemental spirits, which normally takes transmutation and conjuration magic (golems are generally neutral or unaligned due to this), while undead are animated through souls bound to them through necromantic powers (they're generally evil, but don't have to be). Different schools of magic with similar, yet mechanically different, effects.
Phylacteries use necromantic energy to create bodies for the lich whose soul is bound inside of this. The school of magic matters mechanically, and this is why liches are undead. Necromancy magic creates undead, while transmutation creates constructs.
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I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
Sorry, how is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth not a soul?
"Animates" vs. "gives them life". Maybe it would help if you could define them as being distinct from each other? Sure, a skeleton is just an animated set of bones that used to belong to one creature, but a Vampire or a Lich has consciousness. Vampires and Liches makes decisions, have desires, can form arguments, etc. This is a far leap from merely being "animated."
Yes, the rules considers Warforged different from Undead, but there is no lore explaining it because the origin of the Warforged has been intentionally left blank. So Warforged Could be a New form of Undead, one the responds to healing magic by healing. If human beings IRL can program robots to respond to certain stimuli such that robots can be said to feel pain, the sky's the limit for fantasy techno-wizards, right?
An elemental spirit is not a soul. Binding an elemental spirit into a golem is more akin to a human entering a giant robot and "animating" the robot with an internal human-sized hamster wheel or something.
The magic that brings warforged to life gives them life. The magic that brings undead to "life" does not give them life. It is that simple. Gasoline cars and a diesel cars are both fossil fuel vehicles, but one type of fuel is considered gasoline the other type is considered diesel. Warforged and undead are both creatures, but one is powered by "life magic", while the other is powered by "no-life magic". Since warforged is powered by "life magic", they are considered alive. The undead are powered by "no-life magic", so they are considered undead.
Whether a creature has consciousness is irrelevant in determining whether something is alive, undead, or construct. Modrons are constructs with consciousness for example, and they are not considered to be alive nor undead.
Lore wise, the origins of warforged is implied to be pretty clear that House Cannith's manufacturing magic is different from House Vol's necromancy magic. The lore is not clear enough for us to know the exact process for creating warforged, but it sounds like it is information that players' characters can obtain from House Cannith if the DM allows it, and the DM can just say something like "the characters now know how warforged are made, but they will need the resources and assistance of House Cannith to make them" so the DM does not have to go into detail while still sticking to official lore.
I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
Each golem type is animated through an elemental spirit from a different elemental plane of existence in my games, though that's not the RAW. Iron Golems from Fire, Stone Golems from Earth, Snow Golems from the Quasielemental plane of ice, Clay Golems from the Quasielemental plane of mud, and so on.
I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
From the flesh golem entry: "After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator."
None of the manual of golems say anything about requiring any form of elemental spirit, so whether golems created from manuals require a spirit is up to interpretation.
My point is that the soul of a dead creature, instead of passing to an afterlife, could have been used to imbue a manufactured body in the process creating the Warforged. As such, the Warforged would be Undead, albeit a special type that actually benefits from healing spells. "It's a New and Improved design, dontchaknow?"
My point, and I believe that of others as well, is that this constitutes homebrew. Undead that benefit from healing spells are homebrew. At that point, you can do anything. It doesn’t really matter what the lore or the rules or general convention says. You’re creating something that doesn’t (have to) conform to any of that anyway.
Since the people who wrote the lore left the origins of Warforged blank, then isn't homebrew really the only option to answer that question? In which case, it would be no more be homebrewed than the motivation of an NPC that is named but never "fleshed out" in one of the adventure modules. One could say that Liches are one branch of the developmental tree for post-life living and Warforged are the other.
"Warforged: Where After Life, is merely After Breathing." Keep on truckin.' Yeeeeeehaw!
Not really. It’s homebrew because you’re changing undeath. Undead that benefit from healing are not by-the-book undead. You’re also changing Warforged, since they’re not undead according to their racial description. Changes to mechanics are different from fleshing out an NPC from a module or even creating one from scratch using the normal rules.
Filling in blanks in the lore in a way that doesn’t contradict existing rules or lore is not homebrew. Filling in blanks in a way that requires changing things is.
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I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
Eh, maybe. Thing is, only a Stone Golem seems to be only earth-associated; the others have external influences:
Clay Golem: absorbs acid, which suggests an association with both earth and water (or with para-elemental ooze). Unclear motive.
Flesh Golem: absorbs lightning, which is associated with air (or quasi-elemental lightning). Motive as noted.
Iron Golem: absorbs fire, which is associated with fire (obviously). Probably a forge analogy.
I'd like some clarification on this question because it seems to me that Liches do not become Liches through the means associated with most other Undead. The soul within the lich phylactery is their own soul, not that of another creature. They themselves to undergo the process to become a lich, unlike ghouls, skeletons, ghasts, etc. They did not become Undead as a direct result of being attacked by an Undead creature (as is the case of vampires). They are not cursed by their unfulfilled goals or desires, as is often said of ghosts since they largely consider their lich form to be an improvement over their previous form.
So other than the rules telling us that a Lich is Undead, what makes a Lich Undead?
1. Why is it a question?
2. If it's a question to you, what sort of answer would provide clarification so that it is no longer a question to you?
3. Lich are undead because.. they just are. Do all undead require a certain checklist that must be crossed off in order to qualify as undead? Any 7yr old that looks at a lich and almost any other undead would say they are the same type of thing.
In the world of creature types - aberration, beast, construct, humanoid, giant, and so on, undead is clearly the most logical answer for liches.
I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
Eh, maybe. Thing is, only a Stone Golem seems to be only earth-associated; the others have external influences:
Clay Golem: absorbs acid, which suggests an association with both earth and water (or with para-elemental ooze). Unclear motive.
Flesh Golem: absorbs lightning, which is associated with air (or quasi-elemental lightning). Motive as noted.
Iron Golem: absorbs fire, which is associated with fire (obviously). Probably a forge analogy.
Unless you can cite an official source that states otherwise, all golems should be powered by an earth spirit. Entries of clay golem and flesh golem both mentioned golems in general (including stone and iron) being powered by earth spirits, so there is no question clay and flesh golems are powered by an earth spirit. Iron golem does not specify what kind of spirit it uses, so it can be argued you can use whatever elemental spirit you want, but it would contradict information elsewhere. Stone golems and allthedifferentgolemmanuals make no mention of elemental spirits at all, so it can even be argued that none of them require any form of elemental spirits, but that also would contradict information presented elsewhere.
If you want the strictest interpretation of the rules and lore, then all golems should run on earth spirits. For looser interpretations, you can go with iron and stone golems using other elementals since those do not specify.
Back on topic, in a similar vein, a lich is undead simply because it says it is undead, but if someone needs a lore reason, it is stated that the person needs to die first in order to become one. Dying and being revived by necromantic magic is generally considered to make the revived creature undead.
I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
From the flesh golem entry: "After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator."
None of the manual of golems say anything about requiring any form of elemental spirit, so whether golems created from manuals require a spirit is up to interpretation.
not just in 5e, there was never any other planes then those you see in the planar wheel. the planar wheel never changed at all ever since 1e. there is no plane of lightning.
from the order of the planar wheel...
Air <--> ice <--> water <--> mud <--> earth <--> magma <--> fire <--> ash <--> back to air
those are the only 8 planes that ever existed in the entire d&d lore. that said, each settings create their own planar wheel. exemple, in my own setting that i created, the 9 hells are very far from the realms you see in d&d. so what i told you is from forgotten realm which is the main setting for d&d. in eberron for exemple, the world works very differently from what we know. making golems or warforged something entirely different.
so the real deal would be... either read the lore in the actual monster manual, or in the case of dndbeyond, fromt he source book directly, not the monster browser. the source book has a lot more information on everything. or create your own based on what your own setting needs. there is no definiteive answer to the op question !
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The quasi-elemental plane of lightning was on the border between the plane of air and the positive elemental plane, which I think doesn't exist in 5e. In 5e lightning is just air.
I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
From the flesh golem entry: "After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator."
None of the manual of golems say anything about requiring any form of elemental spirit, so whether golems created from manuals require a spirit is up to interpretation.
not just in 5e, there was never any other planes then those you see in the planar wheel. the planar wheel never changed at all ever since 1e. there is no plane of lightning.
from the order of the planar wheel...
Air <--> ice <--> water <--> mud <--> earth <--> magma <--> fire <--> ash <--> back to air
those are the only 8 planes that ever existed in the entire d&d lore. that said, each settings create their own planar wheel. exemple, in my own setting that i created, the 9 hells are very far from the realms you see in d&d. so what i told you is from forgotten realm which is the main setting for d&d. in eberron for exemple, the world works very differently from what we know. making golems or warforged something entirely different.
so the real deal would be... either read the lore in the actual monster manual, or in the case of dndbeyond, fromt he source book directly, not the monster browser. the source book has a lot more information on everything. or create your own based on what your own setting needs. there is no definiteive answer to the op question !
if you wanna see like this, then there is a plane for every single element existing and even beyond that. why not go into 1/100th of a plane and call it molecules. in the planar wheel it is evident that para planes as you call them do not really exists, the real 8 planes only exists because they are sub division. what you are doing is calling each states of america its own plane of existence. which they are not. you should sconsider that each plane of existence is a country. yes there is a place where lightning is more common then any other places. but that would be a state in one of the country not a country by itself. its not as if every planes couldn'T communicate, you can actually walk from the plane of fire to the plane of air to the plane of earth or water and anything in between.
anything thats in the pictures can be counted as a country, aka a plane by itself. the rest is too small to even be a plane by itself. or else would then counted as a demi-plane which is exactly what each pocket of a universe is.
hence why i said there is no plane of lightning. its way too small to ever be on the wheel. thus its not really a plane, its more like a demi plane and if you go into that... then even your bag of holding is a plane of its own. so anybody could just literally open a demi plane to your bag of holding and just steal all the content. and someone with that kind of power could just literally steal the bag of holding of everyone. its all planar rifts and demi planes after all.
so my question to you would then be... at which point does it stop being a plane ?
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if you wanna see like this, then there is a plane for every single element existing and even beyond that. why not go into 1/100th of a plane and call it molecules. in the planar wheel it is evident that para planes as you call them do not really exists, the real 8 planes only exists because they are sub division. what you are doing is calling each states of america its own plane of existence. which they are not. you should sconsider that each plane of existence is a country. yes there is a place where lightning is more common then any other places. but that would be a state in one of the country not a country by itself. its not as if every planes couldn'T communicate, you can actually walk from the plane of fire to the plane of air to the plane of earth or water and anything in between.
anything thats in the pictures can be counted as a country, aka a plane by itself. the rest is too small to even be a plane by itself. or else would then counted as a demi-plane which is exactly what each pocket of a universe is.
hence why i said there is no plane of lightning. its way too small to ever be on the wheel. thus its not really a plane, its more like a demi plane and if you go into that... then even your bag of holding is a plane of its own. so anybody could just literally open a demi plane to your bag of holding and just steal all the content. and someone with that kind of power could just literally steal the bag of holding of everyone. its all planar rifts and demi planes after all.
so my question to you would then be... at which point does it stop being a plane ?
Hey, didn't write it that way. I have no connection to WotC or to TSR before them. The page lnked is actually sourced with footnotes. Whether you agree with the cosmology is up to you, of course. I was just saying that, at least at one point, it was official that such sub/hybrid planes existed.
An elemental spirit is not a soul. Binding an elemental spirit into a golem is more akin to a human entering a giant robot and "animating" the robot with an internal human-sized hamster wheel or something.
The magic that brings warforged to life gives them life. The magic that brings undead to "life" does not give them life. It is that simple. Gasoline cars and a diesel cars are both fossil fuel vehicles, but one type of fuel is considered gasoline the other type is considered diesel. Warforged and undead are both creatures, but one is powered by "life magic", while the other is powered by "no-life magic". Since warforged is powered by "life magic", they are considered alive. The undead are powered by "no-life magic", so they are considered undead.
While, yes, Undead are created by a category of magic called Necromancy, we have no evidence that Warforged were made with what you are calling "life magic." There is no such category in 5e. Even if there were, there is no definitive Eberron or other definition in 5e supporting that. Since there is no Proof, it's really up to the DM or the player (with some permission from the DM possibly) to make it up.
Also, how can you assert that an elemental spirit is not, in fact, a soul? Just because it does not do the things you would associate with a humanoid soul does not exclude it from being a soul.
To be undead, you have to be dead, which means that you have to have been alive before. It's not a question of the great recycling of soul who might or might not happen depending on your universe. A lot of the settings have different explanations about where the souls come from and where they go after death.
But whatever the setting, there is a huge difference between a soul/spirit following the cycle (whatever that is) by being born, being instilled into a non-organic body like a warforged, or a elemental spirit taking material form of his element, on the one hand, and becoming undead which is, whatever the setting, considered an abomination just because it violates that "natural cycle". Note also that, in most settings, it's different from being brought back to life (by raising or resurrecting), because that one specifically restores the previous cycle, whereas undeath specifically does not restore the previous situation, but creates one which is opposed to the "natural" cycle of life and death.
And, ultimately, this is why a lich is undead, it was living, it was following the normal cycle of souls, but the ritual killed the body and forced the soul back into it via a phylactery. It is not dead, it is not alive anymore, it is undead.
Sure the lich's original body died and the soul didn't really go to any kind of afterlife, but how is that different from a placing a soul into a soul gem? The soul gem is not an Undead creature. But fine, let's say that Liches are Undead because disruption of normal cycling of souls from life to death. From what I can tell, Warforged could still very well be Undead, since that soul had to come from somewhere, right?
I think, to me, this probably comes down to 2 things.
Firstly, to be Undead, a creature must have previously been dead (as mentioned above). Beyond that, I think the main thing is it must have been made Undead by the specific effects of the spell/magic used.
Have a look at cars. There are many types of car, and they are powered by many things: petrol, diesel, batteries, hydrogen. They all move from place to place by taking some stored energy and turning it into kinetic energy. However, you cannot call a petrol-powered car a battery-electric vehicle, even though they are both doing the same thing by a very similar process. You can't fill a battery electric vehicle up with petrol, and you can't plug a petrol-powered vehicle up to an electric supply and charge it. They may seem very similar, but they run on 2 very different forms of stored energy.
A lich, vampire or zombie has been animated using magic which creates undead. A warforged has been animated using magic which creates life. The two are fundamentally different.
To be undead, you have to be dead, which means that you have to have been alive before. It's not a question of the great recycling of soul who might or might not happen depending on your universe. A lot of the settings have different explanations about where the souls come from and where they go after death.
But whatever the setting, there is a huge difference between a soul/spirit following the cycle (whatever that is) by being born, being instilled into a non-organic body like a warforged, or a elemental spirit taking material form of his element, on the one hand, and becoming undead which is, whatever the setting, considered an abomination just because it violates that "natural cycle". Note also that, in most settings, it's different from being brought back to life (by raising or resurrecting), because that one specifically restores the previous cycle, whereas undeath specifically does not restore the previous situation, but creates one which is opposed to the "natural" cycle of life and death.
And, ultimately, this is why a lich is undead, it was living, it was following the normal cycle of souls, but the ritual killed the body and forced the soul back into it via a phylactery. It is not dead, it is not alive anymore, it is undead.
Sure the lich's original body died and the soul didn't really go to any kind of afterlife, but how is that different from a placing a soul into a soul gem? The soul gem is not an Undead creature. But fine, let's say that Liches are Undead because disruption of normal cycling of souls from life to death. From what I can tell, Warforged could still very well be Undead, since that soul had to come from somewhere, right?
By that reasoning regular humans could be undead, because their soul has to come from somewhere, right?
By the book, Warforged aren’t and can’t be undead. They’re not defined as undead, they don’t register as undead under an undead detection spell and they don’t share the undead’s vulnerability to positive energy. If you want them to be, you can make them undead and you’ll have a convenient explanation that their creation is actually a necromantic process or whatever, but rules as written they are unquestionably alive. To make them undead you have to change the rules.
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rules as written they are unquestionably alive. To make them undead you have to change the rules.
Given that D&D is a game, this is probably the best answer: A Lich is Undead because the rules say so, and the Warforged are not Undead because the rules say so.
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Arguably a flesh golem should be undead; I think it might not be because the animating force isn't from the shadowfell, which is what actually determines power interactions.
Since the people who wrote the lore left the origins of Warforged blank, then isn't homebrew really the only option to answer that question? In which case, it would be no more be homebrewed than the motivation of an NPC that is named but never "fleshed out" in one of the adventure modules. One could say that Liches are one branch of the developmental tree for post-life living and Warforged are the other.
"Warforged: Where After Life, is merely After Breathing." Keep on truckin.' Yeeeeeehaw!
Golems are animated through elemental spirits, which normally takes transmutation and conjuration magic (golems are generally neutral or unaligned due to this), while undead are animated through souls bound to them through necromantic powers (they're generally evil, but don't have to be). Different schools of magic with similar, yet mechanically different, effects.
Phylacteries use necromantic energy to create bodies for the lich whose soul is bound inside of this. The school of magic matters mechanically, and this is why liches are undead. Necromancy magic creates undead, while transmutation creates constructs.
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I believe flesh golems are animated by power derived from the quasi-elemental plane of lightning, probably as a gross exaggeration of experiments that were contemporary at the time Frankenstein was written involving running electric currents through dead frogs.
An elemental spirit is not a soul. Binding an elemental spirit into a golem is more akin to a human entering a giant robot and "animating" the robot with an internal human-sized hamster wheel or something.
The magic that brings warforged to life gives them life. The magic that brings undead to "life" does not give them life. It is that simple. Gasoline cars and a diesel cars are both fossil fuel vehicles, but one type of fuel is considered gasoline the other type is considered diesel. Warforged and undead are both creatures, but one is powered by "life magic", while the other is powered by "no-life magic". Since warforged is powered by "life magic", they are considered alive. The undead are powered by "no-life magic", so they are considered undead.
Whether a creature has consciousness is irrelevant in determining whether something is alive, undead, or construct. Modrons are constructs with consciousness for example, and they are not considered to be alive nor undead.
Lore wise, the origins of warforged is implied to be pretty clear that House Cannith's manufacturing magic is different from House Vol's necromancy magic. The lore is not clear enough for us to know the exact process for creating warforged, but it sounds like it is information that players' characters can obtain from House Cannith if the DM allows it, and the DM can just say something like "the characters now know how warforged are made, but they will need the resources and assistance of House Cannith to make them" so the DM does not have to go into detail while still sticking to official lore.
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Each golem type is animated through an elemental spirit from a different elemental plane of existence in my games, though that's not the RAW. Iron Golems from Fire, Stone Golems from Earth, Snow Golems from the Quasielemental plane of ice, Clay Golems from the Quasielemental plane of mud, and so on.
Anyway, this is a bit off topic.
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RAW, golems are powered by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth, not Lightning. I do not think Elemental Plane of Lightning is a thing in 5e.
From the flesh golem entry:
"After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator."
None of the manual of golems say anything about requiring any form of elemental spirit, so whether golems created from manuals require a spirit is up to interpretation.
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Not really. It’s homebrew because you’re changing undeath. Undead that benefit from healing are not by-the-book undead. You’re also changing Warforged, since they’re not undead according to their racial description. Changes to mechanics are different from fleshing out an NPC from a module or even creating one from scratch using the normal rules.
Filling in blanks in the lore in a way that doesn’t contradict existing rules or lore is not homebrew. Filling in blanks in a way that requires changing things is.
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Eh, maybe. Thing is, only a Stone Golem seems to be only earth-associated; the others have external influences:
1. Why is it a question?
2. If it's a question to you, what sort of answer would provide clarification so that it is no longer a question to you?
3. Lich are undead because.. they just are. Do all undead require a certain checklist that must be crossed off in order to qualify as undead? Any 7yr old that looks at a lich and almost any other undead would say they are the same type of thing.
In the world of creature types - aberration, beast, construct, humanoid, giant, and so on, undead is clearly the most logical answer for liches.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
Unless you can cite an official source that states otherwise, all golems should be powered by an earth spirit. Entries of clay golem and flesh golem both mentioned golems in general (including stone and iron) being powered by earth spirits, so there is no question clay and flesh golems are powered by an earth spirit. Iron golem does not specify what kind of spirit it uses, so it can be argued you can use whatever elemental spirit you want, but it would contradict information elsewhere. Stone golems and all the different golem manuals make no mention of elemental spirits at all, so it can even be argued that none of them require any form of elemental spirits, but that also would contradict information presented elsewhere.
If you want the strictest interpretation of the rules and lore, then all golems should run on earth spirits. For looser interpretations, you can go with iron and stone golems using other elementals since those do not specify.
Back on topic, in a similar vein, a lich is undead simply because it says it is undead, but if someone needs a lore reason, it is stated that the person needs to die first in order to become one. Dying and being revived by necromantic magic is generally considered to make the revived creature undead.
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not just in 5e, there was never any other planes then those you see in the planar wheel.
the planar wheel never changed at all ever since 1e.
there is no plane of lightning.
from the order of the planar wheel...
Air <--> ice <--> water <--> mud <--> earth <--> magma <--> fire <--> ash <--> back to air
those are the only 8 planes that ever existed in the entire d&d lore.
that said, each settings create their own planar wheel. exemple, in my own setting that i created, the 9 hells are very far from the realms you see in d&d.
so what i told you is from forgotten realm which is the main setting for d&d. in eberron for exemple, the world works very differently from what we know. making golems or warforged something entirely different.
so the real deal would be... either read the lore in the actual monster manual, or in the case of dndbeyond, fromt he source book directly, not the monster browser. the source book has a lot more information on everything. or create your own based on what your own setting needs. there is no definiteive answer to the op question !
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The quasi-elemental plane of lightning was on the border between the plane of air and the positive elemental plane, which I think doesn't exist in 5e. In 5e lightning is just air.
if you wanna see like this, then there is a plane for every single element existing and even beyond that. why not go into 1/100th of a plane and call it molecules.
in the planar wheel it is evident that para planes as you call them do not really exists, the real 8 planes only exists because they are sub division. what you are doing is calling each states of america its own plane of existence. which they are not. you should sconsider that each plane of existence is a country. yes there is a place where lightning is more common then any other places. but that would be a state in one of the country not a country by itself. its not as if every planes couldn'T communicate, you can actually walk from the plane of fire to the plane of air to the plane of earth or water and anything in between.
anything thats in the pictures can be counted as a country, aka a plane by itself. the rest is too small to even be a plane by itself. or else would then counted as a demi-plane which is exactly what each pocket of a universe is.
hence why i said there is no plane of lightning. its way too small to ever be on the wheel.
thus its not really a plane, its more like a demi plane and if you go into that... then even your bag of holding is a plane of its own. so anybody could just literally open a demi plane to your bag of holding and just steal all the content. and someone with that kind of power could just literally steal the bag of holding of everyone. its all planar rifts and demi planes after all.
so my question to you would then be... at which point does it stop being a plane ?
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Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Remnants still show in various types of mephits.
While, yes, Undead are created by a category of magic called Necromancy, we have no evidence that Warforged were made with what you are calling "life magic." There is no such category in 5e. Even if there were, there is no definitive Eberron or other definition in 5e supporting that. Since there is no Proof, it's really up to the DM or the player (with some permission from the DM possibly) to make it up.
Also, how can you assert that an elemental spirit is not, in fact, a soul? Just because it does not do the things you would associate with a humanoid soul does not exclude it from being a soul.
Sure the lich's original body died and the soul didn't really go to any kind of afterlife, but how is that different from a placing a soul into a soul gem? The soul gem is not an Undead creature. But fine, let's say that Liches are Undead because disruption of normal cycling of souls from life to death. From what I can tell, Warforged could still very well be Undead, since that soul had to come from somewhere, right?
I think, to me, this probably comes down to 2 things.
Firstly, to be Undead, a creature must have previously been dead (as mentioned above). Beyond that, I think the main thing is it must have been made Undead by the specific effects of the spell/magic used.
Have a look at cars. There are many types of car, and they are powered by many things: petrol, diesel, batteries, hydrogen. They all move from place to place by taking some stored energy and turning it into kinetic energy. However, you cannot call a petrol-powered car a battery-electric vehicle, even though they are both doing the same thing by a very similar process. You can't fill a battery electric vehicle up with petrol, and you can't plug a petrol-powered vehicle up to an electric supply and charge it. They may seem very similar, but they run on 2 very different forms of stored energy.
A lich, vampire or zombie has been animated using magic which creates undead. A warforged has been animated using magic which creates life. The two are fundamentally different.
By that reasoning regular humans could be undead, because their soul has to come from somewhere, right?
By the book, Warforged aren’t and can’t be undead. They’re not defined as undead, they don’t register as undead under an undead detection spell and they don’t share the undead’s vulnerability to positive energy. If you want them to be, you can make them undead and you’ll have a convenient explanation that their creation is actually a necromantic process or whatever, but rules as written they are unquestionably alive. To make them undead you have to change the rules.
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Given that D&D is a game, this is probably the best answer: A Lich is Undead because the rules say so, and the Warforged are not Undead because the rules say so.