An elemental spirit is not a soul. Binding an elemental spirit into a golem is more akin to a human entering a giant robot and "animating" the robot with an internal human-sized hamster wheel or something.
The magic that brings warforged to life gives them life. The magic that brings undead to "life" does not give them life. It is that simple. Gasoline cars and a diesel cars are both fossil fuel vehicles, but one type of fuel is considered gasoline the other type is considered diesel. Warforged and undead are both creatures, but one is powered by "life magic", while the other is powered by "no-life magic". Since warforged is powered by "life magic", they are considered alive. The undead are powered by "no-life magic", so they are considered undead.
While, yes, Undead are created by a category of magic called Necromancy, we have no evidence that Warforged were made with what you are calling "life magic." There is no such category in 5e. Even if there were, there is no definitive Eberron or other definition in 5e supporting that. Since there is no Proof, it's really up to the DM or the player (with some permission from the DM possibly) to make it up.
Also, how can you assert that an elemental spirit is not, in fact, a soul? Just because it does not do the things you would associate with a humanoid soul does not exclude it from being a soul.
If House Cannith used necromancy, then warforged probably would not be classified as living. "Life magic" is in quotes because that is not what it is actually called and there is no better way explain the point in the simplest terms possible that the magic that gives warforged life gives them life. The magic that animates that gives undead "life" does not give them any life. It is as simple as cars that take gasoline are called gasoline cars, and cars that take diesel are called diesel cars. A gasoline car is not a diesel car because the fuel that powers them is gasoline, not diesel. Just because both are animated by magic does not mean the warforged is undead. Just because most cars are powered by fossil fuels does not mean all cars are diesel cars.
There is nothing to assert that elemental spirits are a soul. Unless you can find a source that states otherwise, an elemental spirit is not a soul.
An elemental spirit is not a soul. Binding an elemental spirit into a golem is more akin to a human entering a giant robot and "animating" the robot with an internal human-sized hamster wheel or something.
The magic that brings warforged to life gives them life. The magic that brings undead to "life" does not give them life. It is that simple. Gasoline cars and a diesel cars are both fossil fuel vehicles, but one type of fuel is considered gasoline the other type is considered diesel. Warforged and undead are both creatures, but one is powered by "life magic", while the other is powered by "no-life magic". Since warforged is powered by "life magic", they are considered alive. The undead are powered by "no-life magic", so they are considered undead.
While, yes, Undead are created by a category of magic called Necromancy, we have no evidence that Warforged were made with what you are calling "life magic." There is no such category in 5e. Even if there were, there is no definitive Eberron or other definition in 5e supporting that. Since there is no Proof, it's really up to the DM or the player (with some permission from the DM possibly) to make it up.
Also, how can you assert that an elemental spirit is not, in fact, a soul? Just because it does not do the things you would associate with a humanoid soul does not exclude it from being a soul.
If House Cannith used necromancy, then warforged probably would not be classified as living. "Life magic" is in quotes because that is not what it is actually called and there is no better way explain the point in the simplest terms possible that the magic that gives warforged life gives them life. The magic that animates that gives undead "life" does not give them any life. It is as simple as cars that take gasoline are called gasoline cars, and cars that take diesel are called diesel cars. A gasoline car is not a diesel car because the fuel that powers them is gasoline, not diesel. Just because both are animated by magic does not mean the warforged is undead. Just because most cars are powered by fossil fuels does not mean all cars are diesel cars.
There is nothing to assert that elemental spirits are a soul. Unless you can find a source that states otherwise, an elemental spirit is not a soul.
I did not say that Warforged are definitely Undead. I said that Part of the process that they Could have been made in the same way that Undead are made. Emphasis on could.
RE: Elemental spirit is or is not a soul. There is no RAW definition of what is or is not a soul either way. Since it is called a "spirit" that implies that it is. Not for sure, but strongly implies it.
And when people are born, their soul also comes from somewhere, but it's part of what the natural cycle is for a given world. The genius of the Cannith people was to be able to have warforged be "born" as part of something that is potentially more linked to the animation of golems, but without recycling a soul that had already lived in a body an dbinding it back with negative energy.
Actually we don't know how House Cannith created Warforged. That is a key point. I am merely stating that it is possible, not fact, but possible that the Warforged were made as a way similar to one used to make certain Undead. Just because the rules don't call Warforged Undead does not mean that the process to make them could not have included some aspect similar to what was used to create a Lich. Not entirely, b/c Warforged do not emanate "negative energy" detectable by, for instance, a Paladin. That does not mean that some creature could not have been killed in order to be able to transfer its soul (or some physical body part) in order to create Warforged in the first place.
Not really. It’s homebrew because you’re changing undeath. Undead that benefit from healing are not by-the-book undead. You’re also changing Warforged, since they’re not undead according to their racial description. Changes to mechanics are different from fleshing out an NPC from a module or even creating one from scratch using the normal rules.
Filling in blanks in the lore in a way that doesn’t contradict existing rules or lore is not homebrew. Filling in blanks in a way that requires changing things is.
Or maybe most people just are too locked into definitive categories. Why could not a Warforged be a new hybrid creation? The body of a construct and the soul extracted from a once living creature in order to something new entirely. So not a full Undead creature, but one that might be developmentally dependent on past experiments for creating Undead. This is possible and would not actually conflict with lore. Since, as you know, there is no established by the book process for how Warforged came to exist in the first place.
Let me ask, if the process to make a Warforged is so great, why was the process for making them destroyed? I don't have the answer to that, I admit. I am merely proposing a plausible reason for why the process is lost to the past: because it enabled mortals to become functionally immortal in a way that parallels the creation of Liches by mortal hands.
Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
There's an argument for "It's Undead if Turn Undead works on it". Which probably has more to do with the type of power the creature is associated with than whether it's alive.
Not really. It’s homebrew because you’re changing undeath. Undead that benefit from healing are not by-the-book undead. You’re also changing Warforged, since they’re not undead according to their racial description. Changes to mechanics are different from fleshing out an NPC from a module or even creating one from scratch using the normal rules.
Filling in blanks in the lore in a way that doesn’t contradict existing rules or lore is not homebrew. Filling in blanks in a way that requires changing things is.
Or maybe most people just are too locked into definitive categories. Why could not a Warforged be a new hybrid creation? The body of a construct and the soul extracted from a once living creature in order to something new entirely. So not a full Undead creature, but one that might be developmentally dependent on past experiments for creating Undead. This is possible and would not actually conflict with lore. Since, as you know, there is no established by the book process for how Warforged came to exist in the first place.
Let me ask, if the process to make a Warforged is so great, why was the process for making them destroyed? I don't have the answer to that, I admit. I am merely proposing a plausible reason for why the process is lost to the past: because it enabled mortals to become functionally immortal in a way that parallels the creation of Liches by mortal hands.
Sure, but “new hybrid creation” is once again homebrew. Those definitive categories are there because of The Rules. If you want to create something for your table, more power to you, but what I’m saying is that as things are in the books Warforged are alive, not undead. You can change that, come up with something fresh that’s interesting for your campaign. We’ve pretty much all been there at one time or other. But that’d be something that’s only true at your table, not in general. If the question is whether Warforged are undead, the answer is that canonically they’re not. If the question is whether they can be, the answer is that everything is possible if the DM wants it to be.
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"Or maybe most people just are too locked into definitive categories."
The definitive categories are there for a reason: This is a game, and that's what the rules say. If you create a new, homebrew creature type of "hybrid-part-undead-part-not-thingy", you screw up a set of rules which are designed for "definitive categories". You have to homebrew a whole new set of rules to deal with this, and will still end up with holes where they get an advantage or disadvantage because they don't fit into the game's "definitive categories".
Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add sexy vampires robots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."
Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
1) So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add sexy vampires robots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."
2) Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
1) It's funny that in spite of mechanics that clearly and undeniably show Warforged are not undead you insist on looking for arguments that they could be anyway, but when it comes to them maybe being constructs a few superficial similarities are plenty for you. Warforged don't sleep, but they do need to rest - not unlike Elves in that regard. They don't make more of themselves because they are not allowed to; they are barred from access to creation forges as much as anyone else. One of the main rumors about the Lord of Blades, the most famous Warforged in Eberron canon, is that he either is already creating more Warforged or is trying to make it possible for him to do so.
2) What general in the world has ever said no to denying the other side elite soldiers? Besides, the Treaty of Stonehold is the result of lengthy, complex negotiations that the generals probably didn't have a decisive vote in. Warforged are very much the Clone Troopers of D&D, and Star Wars already explored that their creation is morally suspect and tantamount to slavery. It's not hard to consider why the powers that be might have had very valid reasons to put an end to arforged creation in the treaty. And Eberron is WotC's pulp adventure, noir intrigue setting. It's not supposed to have nothing but clear lines. The mysteries and missing pieces are there by design.
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Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
1) So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add sexy vampires robots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."
2) Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
1) It's funny that in spite of mechanics that clearly and undeniably show Warforged are not undead you insist on looking for arguments that they could be anyway, but when it comes to them maybe being constructs a few superficial similarities are plenty for you. Warforged don't sleep, but they do need to rest - not unlike Elves in that regard. They don't make more of themselves because they are not allowed to; they are barred from access to creation forges as much as anyone else. One of the main rumors about the Lord of Blades, the most famous Warforged in Eberron canon, is that he either is already creating more Warforged or is trying to make it possible for him to do so.
2) What general in the world has ever said no to denying the other side elite soldiers? Besides, the Treaty of Stonehold is the result of lengthy, complex negotiations that the generals probably didn't have a decisive vote in. Warforged are very much the Clone Troopers of D&D, and Star Wars already explored that their creation is morally suspect and tantamount to slavery. It's not hard to consider why the powers that be might have had very valid reasons to put an end to arforged creation in the treaty. And Eberron is WotC's pulp adventure, noir intrigue setting. It's not supposed to have nothing but clear lines. The mysteries and missing pieces are there by design.
Just like to add on the soldiers thing... production rate also matters. This is one of the traditional reasons Orcs are associated with being good with war. Traditional lore gives them high reproductive rates. Who knows what the production rate for warforged is?
important to note that warforge cost almost nothing, are better then any other soldiers ont he battlefield. the keypoint is... warforged in eberron are considered as weapons of mass destruction since most of them are first and foremost designed for war only. the fact they stopped the production might have to do with it becomeing a problem later on with course of armaments. much like we had in our own real world. imagine a country with warforge being created, if any other country stops production, then that country stops being a main power. no country wants to be easily outnumbered and becoming slave to a more powerfull nation. thus warforge creation was abolished because it became a really really stupid argument of war. when wars are determined by soldiers and how fast you can pump them out.... then does that war have any meaning to begin with ? all of those are reasons why the treaty stopped the forges. much of it having the same repercussions of our own nuclear war to armament we had back int he days. and now we have dismantled most of them going back to traditionnal war that are less destructive by just hitting a button.
play a warforge in your game, see yourself how out of balance the game become. its easy to figure out why it became a problem in eberron. can't gain exhaustion is the main factor here. no need to stop for eating, no ned to stop for the ocean because no breathing. can cast spells, can play musics, can heal. can wear armor reguardless of type. warforge groups can attack day and night without ever needing a rest. sure magical ones may need some rest to recharge spells, but why would they ? they have cantrips that still helps them achieve their goal. undeads on the other hand, have much of that without the intelligence behind them, which makes constructs a much more viable counter part.
all of this into considerations... you realise how fast other races gets outmatched in the long run. all of these played a role into the decision of stopping the forges.
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Erm, where does it say Warforged can't gain exhaustion?
Warforged who are monster constructs (Colossus, Titan) cannot gain exhaustion, but warforged who are monster humanoids can definitely gain exhaustion though. Warforged as PCs also gain exhaustion since it does not say they are immune to the condition. I believe the old, archived Warforged PCs also gain exhaustion, but they do not suffer from the effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest.
Erm, where does it say Warforged can't gain exhaustion?
Warforged who are monster constructs (Colossus, Titan) cannot gain exhaustion, but warforged who are monster humanoids can definitely gain exhaustion though. Warforged as PCs also gain exhaustion since it does not say they are immune to the condition. I believe the old, archived Warforged PCs also gain exhaustion, but they do not suffer from the effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest.
Hey now, I was being rhetorical. :p But thanks for the detailed clarification.
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I know, I'm just pointing it out before a mod has to step in :)
I'm of the view that this is a fictional fantasy realm. Therefore a Lich is undead because that is cannon, and a Warforged isn't because that is cannon.
You can't just say that Luke Skywalker is a Wookie, or Darth Vader is a droid, while staying in the realms of the Star Wars story. They are not, because the story says they are not.
In your own game, of course, you can change that if you want. But be prepared to have to rebalance things and deal with unexpected consequences, and accept that it is homebrew.
Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
1) So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add sexy vampires robots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."
2) Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
1) It's funny that in spite of mechanics that clearly and undeniably show Warforged are not undead you insist on looking for arguments that they could be anyway, but when it comes to them maybe being constructs a few superficial similarities are plenty for you. Warforged don't sleep, but they do need to rest - not unlike Elves in that regard. They don't make more of themselves because they are not allowed to; they are barred from access to creation forges as much as anyone else. One of the main rumors about the Lord of Blades, the most famous Warforged in Eberron canon, is that he either is already creating more Warforged or is trying to make it possible for him to do so.
2) What general in the world has ever said no to denying the other side elite soldiers? Besides, the Treaty of Stonehold is the result of lengthy, complex negotiations that the generals probably didn't have a decisive vote in. Warforged are very much the Clone Troopers of D&D, and Star Wars already explored that their creation is morally suspect and tantamount to slavery. It's not hard to consider why the powers that be might have had very valid reasons to put an end to arforged creation in the treaty. And Eberron is WotC's pulp adventure, noir intrigue setting. It's not supposed to have nothing but clear lines. The mysteries and missing pieces are there by design.
Just like to add on the soldiers thing... production rate also matters. This is one of the traditional reasons Orcs are associated with being good with war. Traditional lore gives them high reproductive rates. Who knows what the production rate for warforged is?
important to note that warforge cost almost nothing, are better then any other soldiers ont he battlefield. the keypoint is... warforged in eberron are considered as weapons of mass destruction since most of them are first and foremost designed for war only. the fact they stopped the production might have to do with it becomeing a problem later on with course of armaments. much like we had in our own real world. imagine a country with warforge being created, if any other country stops production, then that country stops being a main power. no country wants to be easily outnumbered and becoming slave to a more powerfull nation. thus warforge creation was abolished because it became a really really stupid argument of war. when wars are determined by soldiers and how fast you can pump them out.... then does that war have any meaning to begin with ? all of those are reasons why the treaty stopped the forges. much of it having the same repercussions of our own nuclear war to armament we had back int he days. and now we have dismantled most of them going back to traditionnal war that are less destructive by just hitting a button.
play a warforge in your game, see yourself how out of balance the game become. its easy to figure out why it became a problem in eberron. can't gain exhaustion is the main factor here. no need to stop for eating, no ned to stop for the ocean because no breathing. can cast spells, can play musics, can heal. can wear armor reguardless of type. warforge groups can attack day and night without ever needing a rest. sure magical ones may need some rest to recharge spells, but why would they ? they have cantrips that still helps them achieve their goal. undeads on the other hand, have much of that without the intelligence behind them, which makes constructs a much more viable counter part.
all of this into considerations... you realise how fast other races gets outmatched in the long run. all of these played a role into the decision of stopping the forges.
Pardon, but where, exactly, is there any sort of cost accounting for Warforged creation? "Cost almost nothing?" Great! Then my first level artificer makes an army of Warforged.
Seriously, think about their design.
Who knows how long it takes to grow the 'root-like cords?' Or brew the alchemical fluids needed, or what materials are needed for either. Or similarly, creation time for the framework and other mechanical aspects? And that is just the mechanical side of production.... who knows what is involved giving them souls/spirits or whatever equivalent they have and how long acquiring or producing such takes and at what cost?
And as for not suffering from exhaustion, not only is no such immunity listed in the rules, resting provides the same benefits that it does for other humanoids. For other humanoids, exhaustion removal is one of the benefits of resting. Further evidence that they are not immune to exhaustion.
The very fact that the House who was producing them did not simply win the Last War is proof that they are not produced as cheaply as you suggest. On the Day of Mourning, Cyre was outnumbered 3 to 1. Cyre using warforged was enough to trick their enemies into believing the numbers were closer but that did not change the actual numbers. If they were so easy and cheap to produce, why would any nation using them ever be outnumbered?
in a world of magic, where does it says it is hard to create and cost a lot ? i mean the fabricate spell can do all of what you asked about in a matter of seconds. spells can become permanents you know. also enchantments exists. there are plenty of thigns that can explain how the creation of anything can be done. there is also the fact that warforged literally became a race by itself in a matter of a few months int he game. the forges that do them literally pumped them out in great numbers, that would be meaning that materials to create them were a plenty ! there is proof int he story itself that makes warforge a easy thing to create.
and yes, i would let your artificer level 1 create an army of warforge... but it would take time and you would literally have to make another character to play the game. also without plans and all he'd be starting from the beginning and thus would need to make prototypes first. you know go through all the hoops to get to mass production.
following the example above... imagine guilds having invested so much into making such a thing into mass production, to think they couldn'T get to mass production would mean they would of lost everythign for sake of an experiement. thats not what hapenned... every guilds wanted a forge now to make their own army of robots. that literally changed the way the world worked because of how easy it was to create that.
let me give you another example... asmodeus wanted a race for himself... he wished for a single race to become devil looking people... boom tiefling were literally born that day. if a big bad like asmodeus can do it, with that much ease... why wouldn'T other people be able to do it ? reguardless of who had the idea, those people created a whole new race. imagine us in our real world, it might have taken us over a hundred years to create cars... but look at how easy it is now to create them ! the same applies to warforge, it might have been a feat of strength to create one at some point, but when they got to the point of mass creation, it was trivial to them.
thats exactly why it became a problem and why the nations had to do something about it. the same thing hapenned to us with nuclear bombs.
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Cheap and easy to create is relative. Keep in mind that some of the Dragonmarked houses have wealth and power that rival those of a small kingdom. Warforged were also a hot commodity - House Cannith could afford to invest heavily in production, they were certain to sell as many as they could create at a more than substantial profit. Google today can spend 100s of millions on product development: for them that’s affordable, for others that’s an unimaginable budget. As for easy, we don’t really know how creation forges work or are operated. Maybe someone with basic technical skills can build and operate one if given plans and materials, maybe it takes a Wish spell just to get one up and running. Are Wish spells easy to come by? Not by a regular person’s standards, but if you have enough wealth to keep a bunch of wizards on retainer you don’t have a regular person’s perspective.
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Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
1) So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add sexy vampires robots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."
2) Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
1) It's funny that in spite of mechanics that clearly and undeniably show Warforged are not undead you insist on looking for arguments that they could be anyway, but when it comes to them maybe being constructs a few superficial similarities are plenty for you. Warforged don't sleep, but they do need to rest - not unlike Elves in that regard. They don't make more of themselves because they are not allowed to; they are barred from access to creation forges as much as anyone else. One of the main rumors about the Lord of Blades, the most famous Warforged in Eberron canon, is that he either is already creating more Warforged or is trying to make it possible for him to do so.
2) What general in the world has ever said no to denying the other side elite soldiers? Besides, the Treaty of Stonehold is the result of lengthy, complex negotiations that the generals probably didn't have a decisive vote in. Warforged are very much the Clone Troopers of D&D, and Star Wars already explored that their creation is morally suspect and tantamount to slavery. It's not hard to consider why the powers that be might have had very valid reasons to put an end to arforged creation in the treaty. And Eberron is WotC's pulp adventure, noir intrigue setting. It's not supposed to have nothing but clear lines. The mysteries and missing pieces are there by design.
Just like to add on the soldiers thing... production rate also matters. This is one of the traditional reasons Orcs are associated with being good with war. Traditional lore gives them high reproductive rates. Who knows what the production rate for warforged is?
important to note that warforge cost almost nothing, are better then any other soldiers ont he battlefield. the keypoint is... warforged in eberron are considered as weapons of mass destruction since most of them are first and foremost designed for war only. the fact they stopped the production might have to do with it becomeing a problem later on with course of armaments. much like we had in our own real world. imagine a country with warforge being created, if any other country stops production, then that country stops being a main power. no country wants to be easily outnumbered and becoming slave to a more powerfull nation. thus warforge creation was abolished because it became a really really stupid argument of war. when wars are determined by soldiers and how fast you can pump them out.... then does that war have any meaning to begin with ? all of those are reasons why the treaty stopped the forges. much of it having the same repercussions of our own nuclear war to armament we had back int he days. and now we have dismantled most of them going back to traditionnal war that are less destructive by just hitting a button.
play a warforge in your game, see yourself how out of balance the game become. its easy to figure out why it became a problem in eberron. can't gain exhaustion is the main factor here. no need to stop for eating, no ned to stop for the ocean because no breathing. can cast spells, can play musics, can heal. can wear armor reguardless of type. warforge groups can attack day and night without ever needing a rest. sure magical ones may need some rest to recharge spells, but why would they ? they have cantrips that still helps them achieve their goal. undeads on the other hand, have much of that without the intelligence behind them, which makes constructs a much more viable counter part.
all of this into considerations... you realise how fast other races gets outmatched in the long run. all of these played a role into the decision of stopping the forges.
Pardon, but where, exactly, is there any sort of cost accounting for Warforged creation? "Cost almost nothing?" Great! Then my first level artificer makes an army of Warforged.
Seriously, think about their design.
Who knows how long it takes to grow the 'root-like cords?' Or brew the alchemical fluids needed, or what materials are needed for either. Or similarly, creation time for the framework and other mechanical aspects? And that is just the mechanical side of production.... who knows what is involved giving them souls/spirits or whatever equivalent they have and how long acquiring or producing such takes and at what cost?
And as for not suffering from exhaustion, not only is no such immunity listed in the rules, resting provides the same benefits that it does for other humanoids. For other humanoids, exhaustion removal is one of the benefits of resting. Further evidence that they are not immune to exhaustion.
The very fact that the House who was producing them did not simply win the Last War is proof that they are not produced as cheaply as you suggest. On the Day of Mourning, Cyre was outnumbered 3 to 1. Cyre using warforged was enough to trick their enemies into believing the numbers were closer but that did not change the actual numbers. If they were so easy and cheap to produce, why would any nation using them ever be outnumbered?
in a world of magic, where does it says it is hard to create and cost a lot ? i mean the fabricate spell can do all of what you asked about in a matter of seconds. spells can become permanents you know. also enchantments exists. there are plenty of thigns that can explain how the creation of anything can be done. there is also the fact that warforged literally became a race by itself in a matter of a few months int he game. the forges that do them literally pumped them out in great numbers, that would be meaning that materials to create them were a plenty ! there is proof int he story itself that makes warforge a easy thing to create.
and yes, i would let your artificer level 1 create an army of warforge... but it would take time and you would literally have to make another character to play the game. also without plans and all he'd be starting from the beginning and thus would need to make prototypes first. you know go through all the hoops to get to mass production.
following the example above... imagine guilds having invested so much into making such a thing into mass production, to think they couldn'T get to mass production would mean they would of lost everythign for sake of an experiement. thats not what hapenned... every guilds wanted a forge now to make their own army of robots. that literally changed the way the world worked because of how easy it was to create that.
let me give you another example... asmodeus wanted a race for himself... he wished for a single race to become devil looking people... boom tiefling were literally born that day. if a big bad like asmodeus can do it, with that much ease... why wouldn'T other people be able to do it ? reguardless of who had the idea, those people created a whole new race. imagine us in our real world, it might have taken us over a hundred years to create cars... but look at how easy it is now to create them ! the same applies to warforge, it might have been a feat of strength to create one at some point, but when they got to the point of mass creation, it was trivial to them.
thats exactly why it became a problem and why the nations had to do something about it. the same thing hapenned to us with nuclear bombs.
Nuclear weapons are not mass produced though. Nor are they anywhere near equivalent to 1 to 1 with ground troops. The better analogy with nuclear weapons would be strategic level ritual magic, something not really existent in the rules currently. One warforged is nowhere near equivalent to a nuclear weapon.
And in your world, Warforged can be incredibly easy to make. However there is ZERO evidence that was true in Ebberon. If level 1 artificers can make them and if there are fabricate based factories churning them out at massive rates, where is the proof? Why was Cyre so badly outnumbered?
You counter with 'Well, it is easy for Asmodeus!,' completely ignoring the fact that he was doing so as a Greater God. Last I checked, mortals are mortals, not gods, greater or otherwise.
the same is pretty much true for your definition of it being hard to make. and my fact is from eberron, with the forges making hundreds of warforge per day ! that is literally in the books !
and now i wonder what is your definitopn of mass produce if you think ten of thousands of nuclear warhead is not mass production...
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Which book says "hundreds per day"? I mean, let's call it an even 200/day. That's over 70,000/year, for over 30 years, so over 2 million produced. As per Keith Baker, there are about 10,000 Warforged in Eberron after the Treaty. That'd mean 99.5% were lost, using the absolute lowest possible estimate that starts from "hundreds per day".
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If House Cannith used necromancy, then warforged probably would not be classified as living. "Life magic" is in quotes because that is not what it is actually called and there is no better way explain the point in the simplest terms possible that the magic that gives warforged life gives them life. The magic that animates that gives undead "life" does not give them any life. It is as simple as cars that take gasoline are called gasoline cars, and cars that take diesel are called diesel cars. A gasoline car is not a diesel car because the fuel that powers them is gasoline, not diesel. Just because both are animated by magic does not mean the warforged is undead. Just because most cars are powered by fossil fuels does not mean all cars are diesel cars.
There is nothing to assert that elemental spirits are a soul. Unless you can find a source that states otherwise, an elemental spirit is not a soul.
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I did not say that Warforged are definitely Undead. I said that Part of the process that they Could have been made in the same way that Undead are made. Emphasis on could.
RE: Elemental spirit is or is not a soul. There is no RAW definition of what is or is not a soul either way. Since it is called a "spirit" that implies that it is. Not for sure, but strongly implies it.
Or maybe most people just are too locked into definitive categories. Why could not a Warforged be a new hybrid creation? The body of a construct and the soul extracted from a once living creature in order to something new entirely. So not a full Undead creature, but one that might be developmentally dependent on past experiments for creating Undead. This is possible and would not actually conflict with lore. Since, as you know, there is no established by the book process for how Warforged came to exist in the first place.
Let me ask, if the process to make a Warforged is so great, why was the process for making them destroyed? I don't have the answer to that, I admit. I am merely proposing a plausible reason for why the process is lost to the past: because it enabled mortals to become functionally immortal in a way that parallels the creation of Liches by mortal hands.
Warforged aren't construct plus extracted living soul, they are actually constructs that 'manifested' souls:
Basically they got so advanced that they evolved souls (evident by the fact they're humanoids and resurrection/healing magic works on them).
Warforged are no longer produced as part of the Treaty of Thronehold that followed the end of the Last War, which declared that House Cannith (who first developed the warforged and were the only house that could make them) would no longer manufacture sapient creatures. This was actually part of the emancipation of the Warforged; another race wouldn't have control of the propagation of their species.
Also, it's not actually known if warforged are immortal; the oldest are only a few decades old and the effects of time on a warforgeds body and mind aren't know.
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There's an argument for "It's Undead if Turn Undead works on it". Which probably has more to do with the type of power the creature is associated with than whether it's alive.
Sure, but “new hybrid creation” is once again homebrew. Those definitive categories are there because of The Rules. If you want to create something for your table, more power to you, but what I’m saying is that as things are in the books Warforged are alive, not undead. You can change that, come up with something fresh that’s interesting for your campaign. We’ve pretty much all been there at one time or other. But that’d be something that’s only true at your table, not in general. If the question is whether Warforged are undead, the answer is that canonically they’re not. If the question is whether they can be, the answer is that everything is possible if the DM wants it to be.
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"Or maybe most people just are too locked into definitive categories."
The definitive categories are there for a reason: This is a game, and that's what the rules say. If you create a new, homebrew creature type of "hybrid-part-undead-part-not-thingy", you screw up a set of rules which are designed for "definitive categories". You have to homebrew a whole new set of rules to deal with this, and will still end up with holes where they get an advantage or disadvantage because they don't fit into the game's "definitive categories".
So Warforged are a species that does not need to eat, breathe or sleep. And they don't make more of themselves. That sounds very much like a Construct to me, not a humanoid. This sounds like another "Who cares if the rules make sense, we just want to add
sexy vampiresrobots to the game and have them be easy to heal for the party cleric."Also, what general in the world has ever said "No" to having more soldiers? Esp. ones who have obvious advantages over other, more common ones? There is a lot of lore missing here, and current piece-meal answers do not feel satisfactory as a result.
1) It's funny that in spite of mechanics that clearly and undeniably show Warforged are not undead you insist on looking for arguments that they could be anyway, but when it comes to them maybe being constructs a few superficial similarities are plenty for you. Warforged don't sleep, but they do need to rest - not unlike Elves in that regard. They don't make more of themselves because they are not allowed to; they are barred from access to creation forges as much as anyone else. One of the main rumors about the Lord of Blades, the most famous Warforged in Eberron canon, is that he either is already creating more Warforged or is trying to make it possible for him to do so.
2) What general in the world has ever said no to denying the other side elite soldiers? Besides, the Treaty of Stonehold is the result of lengthy, complex negotiations that the generals probably didn't have a decisive vote in. Warforged are very much the Clone Troopers of D&D, and Star Wars already explored that their creation is morally suspect and tantamount to slavery. It's not hard to consider why the powers that be might have had very valid reasons to put an end to arforged creation in the treaty. And Eberron is WotC's pulp adventure, noir intrigue setting. It's not supposed to have nothing but clear lines. The mysteries and missing pieces are there by design.
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important to note that warforge cost almost nothing, are better then any other soldiers ont he battlefield. the keypoint is... warforged in eberron are considered as weapons of mass destruction since most of them are first and foremost designed for war only. the fact they stopped the production might have to do with it becomeing a problem later on with course of armaments. much like we had in our own real world. imagine a country with warforge being created, if any other country stops production, then that country stops being a main power. no country wants to be easily outnumbered and becoming slave to a more powerfull nation. thus warforge creation was abolished because it became a really really stupid argument of war. when wars are determined by soldiers and how fast you can pump them out.... then does that war have any meaning to begin with ? all of those are reasons why the treaty stopped the forges. much of it having the same repercussions of our own nuclear war to armament we had back int he days. and now we have dismantled most of them going back to traditionnal war that are less destructive by just hitting a button.
play a warforge in your game, see yourself how out of balance the game become.
its easy to figure out why it became a problem in eberron.
can't gain exhaustion is the main factor here. no need to stop for eating, no ned to stop for the ocean because no breathing. can cast spells, can play musics, can heal. can wear armor reguardless of type. warforge groups can attack day and night without ever needing a rest. sure magical ones may need some rest to recharge spells, but why would they ? they have cantrips that still helps them achieve their goal. undeads on the other hand, have much of that without the intelligence behind them, which makes constructs a much more viable counter part.
all of this into considerations... you realise how fast other races gets outmatched in the long run.
all of these played a role into the decision of stopping the forges.
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Erm, where does it say Warforged can't gain exhaustion?
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Warforged who are monster constructs (Colossus, Titan) cannot gain exhaustion, but warforged who are monster humanoids can definitely gain exhaustion though. Warforged as PCs also gain exhaustion since it does not say they are immune to the condition. I believe the old, archived Warforged PCs also gain exhaustion, but they do not suffer from the effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest.
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Hey now, I was being rhetorical. :p But thanks for the detailed clarification.
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Are we not going a little off topic here? This thread is supposed to be about whether Lich are undead.
I know, I'm just pointing it out before a mod has to step in :)
I'm of the view that this is a fictional fantasy realm. Therefore a Lich is undead because that is cannon, and a Warforged isn't because that is cannon.
You can't just say that Luke Skywalker is a Wookie, or Darth Vader is a droid, while staying in the realms of the Star Wars story. They are not, because the story says they are not.
In your own game, of course, you can change that if you want. But be prepared to have to rebalance things and deal with unexpected consequences, and accept that it is homebrew.
in a world of magic, where does it says it is hard to create and cost a lot ?
i mean the fabricate spell can do all of what you asked about in a matter of seconds.
spells can become permanents you know. also enchantments exists. there are plenty of thigns that can explain how the creation of anything can be done.
there is also the fact that warforged literally became a race by itself in a matter of a few months int he game. the forges that do them literally pumped them out in great numbers, that would be meaning that materials to create them were a plenty ! there is proof int he story itself that makes warforge a easy thing to create.
and yes, i would let your artificer level 1 create an army of warforge... but it would take time and you would literally have to make another character to play the game. also without plans and all he'd be starting from the beginning and thus would need to make prototypes first. you know go through all the hoops to get to mass production.
following the example above... imagine guilds having invested so much into making such a thing into mass production, to think they couldn'T get to mass production would mean they would of lost everythign for sake of an experiement. thats not what hapenned... every guilds wanted a forge now to make their own army of robots. that literally changed the way the world worked because of how easy it was to create that.
let me give you another example...
asmodeus wanted a race for himself... he wished for a single race to become devil looking people... boom tiefling were literally born that day.
if a big bad like asmodeus can do it, with that much ease... why wouldn'T other people be able to do it ? reguardless of who had the idea, those people created a whole new race.
imagine us in our real world, it might have taken us over a hundred years to create cars... but look at how easy it is now to create them ! the same applies to warforge, it might have been a feat of strength to create one at some point, but when they got to the point of mass creation, it was trivial to them.
thats exactly why it became a problem and why the nations had to do something about it.
the same thing hapenned to us with nuclear bombs.
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Cheap and easy to create is relative. Keep in mind that some of the Dragonmarked houses have wealth and power that rival those of a small kingdom. Warforged were also a hot commodity - House Cannith could afford to invest heavily in production, they were certain to sell as many as they could create at a more than substantial profit. Google today can spend 100s of millions on product development: for them that’s affordable, for others that’s an unimaginable budget. As for easy, we don’t really know how creation forges work or are operated. Maybe someone with basic technical skills can build and operate one if given plans and materials, maybe it takes a Wish spell just to get one up and running. Are Wish spells easy to come by? Not by a regular person’s standards, but if you have enough wealth to keep a bunch of wizards on retainer you don’t have a regular person’s perspective.
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the same is pretty much true for your definition of it being hard to make. and my fact is from eberron, with the forges making hundreds of warforge per day !
that is literally in the books !
and now i wonder what is your definitopn of mass produce if you think ten of thousands of nuclear warhead is not mass production...
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Which book says "hundreds per day"? I mean, let's call it an even 200/day. That's over 70,000/year, for over 30 years, so over 2 million produced. As per Keith Baker, there are about 10,000 Warforged in Eberron after the Treaty. That'd mean 99.5% were lost, using the absolute lowest possible estimate that starts from "hundreds per day".
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