Heya everyone! I just joined a new campaign with a group of friends where they've already played a while and then asked me if I wanted to join as I moved closer to them. Anyway, they are currently level 4 and rolled for their stats with 4d6 remove the lowest. I figured cool and decided to make a Human Paladin, I'm a hardcore Paladin fanboy but honestly I've never played a Human Paladin so I figured I'd just go classic, with a Human Paladin of Torm Oath of Vengeance. The stats I gained, are rather insane however. After Racials they add up too: Str: 18 Dex: 16 Con: 18 Int: 15 Wis: 15 Cha: 18 Since we roll for HP, I was obviously lucky in that area as well, meaning that my HP at level 4 is 46.
Add to this that I'm a variant Human with two feats (Resilient (Con) and Great Weapon Master). I'm a tiny tad worried about two things, the first one is simply group balance. Now everyone says it's alright and it's not that I don't believe them, but I also feel that they might simply be kind. The second thing is how do you play such over all strong characters. I mean how do you make them interesting and multifaceted? Asking for tips and tricks from people who has far more experience than me in that regard. Lastly I also had the thought to manually lower a few stats, do you think that this is a good solution and something you should do, or is it more "you rolled 'em, go with 'em". I guess I'm simply asking what I "should" do and how to perhaps handle an eventual inbalance? Or am I just overthinking it all?
When, at the same table, one player has a character whose stats are way better than the characters that the other players have, then the stats are too good.
If all of the players are using the same or comparable stats, then it is all good, and merely sets the tone for a fragile or epic adventure.
If I was going to use random dice, I would have each player roll an array using 3d6, and let all of the players decide which one array they would all use.
If you are worried about overshadowing other players, you might want to take more flavorful instead of powerful feats at your next ASI.
Feats are uneven in power. Ideally, all feats will be updated to be more equally powerful to each other.
But in the meantime, some of the powerful feats are also important because of their flavor.
At first when 5e came out, and ruled it was illegal to go above an ability score of 20, I opposed it. But now I am seeing the wisdom of it. It removes alot of difficulties.
Perhaps if Levels 21 and higher become available in an epic tier, players can play with characters with scores beyond 20.
Personally I wouldn’t worry too much about it, you can always hold back a little bit if you feel others are being overshadowed. You don’t have to use GWM every attack. Plus, as a paladin you provide other benefits to the party with things like auras (when you get them) and as was mentioned pick up some feats to benefit the party. Inspiring Leader feat can help everyone as you use your natural charisma to bolster the group, etc..
Stats being too good is way to subjective to really get any real answer.
I say they are high, but it shouldn't break the game at all. As others have said already, take some feats specifically to benefit the party. D&D is a co-op game and as long as you play the game with the group in mind, (Players and Characters) then everything should be fine.
One issue with this is a thing called "bounded accuracy" which is the balancing mechanic for most combat in 5th edition. It pretty much relies on a PCs stats not exceeding 20 (except in very rare circumstances by RAW). Changing this throws the entire combat system out of whack in favor of the players, which can make it really hard for DMs to manage effective combat.
The actual stats themselves are largely irrelevant; a good DM will help balance the party and adventure. The important thing about rolled stats is the trust of your group and shared risk. The best way to achieve this is by rolling at the table with the other players. Then, there is no question of your integrity and an improbable result becomes a part of everyone's story. If you arrive at the table with three 18s and everything above a 15, they may not say anything, but they'll be very suspicious and that can cast a shadow on everything else you do down the road.
I would personally chuck those stats, wait until the first session, then roll fresh stats while telling the story about rolling unbelievable stats. This will not only validate whatever you end up rolling, but will also get you extra credit for valuing your party over your character. A good first impression will put a shine on everything you do moving forward.
As for how to play a powerful character:
(1) A +1 mod only tips the scale 5%. Having all 18s doesn't make the character a god by any means,
(2) Look at characters like Homelander from The Boys. Nearly an actual god, yet deeply, deeply disturbed. Stats are a small part of who a character actually is. They're your base aptitude. A wizard with Int 20 can still be an absent minded fool. They have all the information in the world rattling around in their head, but maybe they're too busy obsessing over their fan fiction to pay attention to other people's problems.
Exceptional natural ability is often paired with proportional internal conflict. The more easily you can glide through life, the less time you'll spend becoming well-adjusted. In other words... many of the most power powerful people are also the most fragile.
One thing to remember is that having a high stat for something that doesn't really tie into your class doesn't actually benefit you that much. That's why Strength and Intelligence are generally regarded as the two weakest stats if you're not playing a class that uses melee attacks or Int-based spellcasting.
The OP's stats are fantastic, but overall are unlikely to be anything close to gamebreaking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
One thing to remember is that having a high stat for something that doesn't really tie into your class doesn't actually benefit you that much. That's why Strength and Intelligence are generally regarded as the two weakest stats if you're not playing a class that uses melee attacks or Int-based spellcasting.
The OP's stats are fantastic, but overall are unlikely to be anything close to gamebreaking.
They're pretty game breaking and will only continue to grow. Paladins are a pretty stat dependant class and here are at level 4 with a +2 save in everything. When we hit level 6, we're going to have a +6 to every save at the lowest, STR will be +8, Wis +9, and then CHA/CON will be +11.
Here we have a level 6 paladin that can't lose concentration unless something hits him for more than 22 damage on a single hit. That doesn't matter either because we're the tankiest individual alive.
This isn't even counting the fact that we have GWM, but we're a vengeance paladin so who cares about the penalty when you're rolling with advantage and a +7. If I have these stats at this class? Smites are never gonna happen. My spell slots are either bless or compelled duel. Not like I'm gonna lose concentration, even if I'm FORCING something to hit me.
The solution is to give everyone at the table the same stat levels so that every player feels the same but here we have an insane build that can consistently hit with GWM every single because I'm just gonna bless as often as I possibly can before combat, and then go ham.
Yeah your stats are at the absurd level, it could go wrong or it could go ok. All depends on how the other players handle situations and how you handle the character.
If your table tends to be "well hes got the best + at it so he should try it" than your probably gonna run into a lot of issues where your character does everything. If you take it more passively and let others do what should be their shtick even if you have a better shot at it than it'd probably be ok.
For instance party with a noble born eladrin paladin and a human sorcerer that's an entertainer. My Paladin has a better + in persuasion due to proficiency but I don't try to get involved in a lot of the rolls because the sorcerer is one of those friendly, easy to talk fun loving and bubbly people. It'd make more sense in a lot of situation for her to handle those types of rolls than my slightly more stuffy and noble blooded eladrin.. but when it comes to city officials n the such we swap off.
One issue with this is a thing called "bounded accuracy" which is the balancing mechanic for most combat in 5th edition. It pretty much relies on a PCs stats not exceeding 20 (except in very rare circumstances by RAW). Changing this throws the entire combat system out of whack in favor of the players, which can make it really hard for DMs to manage effective combat.
Maybe so. But. "Expertise" that doubles the proficiency bonus already messes with the math of bounded accuracy.
And. The higher numbers dont happen until the highest levels. Even an ability score of 20 wouldnt be possible until level 13, the sovereign tier. So most campaigns would be more bounded than they currently are now.
Moreover. The superhuman scores that seem should be within reach, such as giant strength, do eventually become accessible, albeit at the highest tiers only.
One thing to remember is that having a high stat for something that doesn't really tie into your class doesn't actually benefit you that much. That's why Strength and Intelligence are generally regarded as the two weakest stats if you're not playing a class that uses melee attacks or Int-based spellcasting.
The OP's stats are fantastic, but overall are unlikely to be anything close to gamebreaking.
They're pretty game breaking and will only continue to grow. Paladins are a pretty stat dependant class and here are at level 4 with a +2 save in everything. When we hit level 6, we're going to have a +6 to every save at the lowest, STR will be +8, Wis +9, and then CHA/CON will be +11.
Here we have a level 6 paladin that can't lose concentration unless something hits him for more than 22 damage on a single hit. That doesn't matter either because we're the tankiest individual alive.
This isn't even counting the fact that we have GWM, but we're a vengeance paladin so who cares about the penalty when you're rolling with advantage and a +7. If I have these stats at this class? Smites are never gonna happen. My spell slots are either bless or compelled duel. Not like I'm gonna lose concentration, even if I'm FORCING something to hit me.
The solution is to give everyone at the table the same stat levels so that every player feels the same but here we have an insane build that can consistently hit with GWM every single because I'm just gonna bless as often as I possibly can before combat, and then go ham.
I've played characters with absurdly high stats before. My experience is that it levels out as you get higher in level, not that it gets more broken. With Ability Scores capped at 20, it's not giving them the ability to get higher strength or charisma than a paladin that was built using point buy (like the one I've been running for a year now). All it's doing is letting this paladin hit the cap a few levels early. So good for them, it's not like they're doing something that my paladin can't do since at 8th level I've got a 21 strength (Belt of Giant Strength) and an 18 Charisma and basically never fail saving throws because I'm using the class feature that's available to every paladin.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If I were you I would accept the stats I've rolled... trying to "fix" them is essentially cheating downwards and may end up nagging on your conscience in the furture.
I would look at the stats like this; now you have freedom to have more fun with ASI's... you're free to pick feats which give nifty little tricks rather than being super effective. I rolled my stats for my current character aswell, and while they aren't nearly as powerful as yours, they're still very good.
All I needed for my wizard was a high intelligence and a decent con, and I got that.. so I've taken the "skilled" feat with one of my ASIs because I want to build our party a base one day, so It'd be neat to be able to craft nice looking buildings once I get wall of stone ect.
In a game that in centred around luck of the dice I’d take the luck going in your favour! I had an unbelievably lucky first roll on my current character and it hasn’t made the game unbalanced at all, I’ve been able to take some more ‘flavoured’ feats because my spell casting stat was at 20 from level 1 but it’s certainly not been game breaking for us. I’ve also had some awful rolls at level up and others in the party have had great rolls so I feel it’s more even than less over time.
Personally, I like using a standard array over rolling the d6s and I like using the standard hp calculation as well. Having functional , roughly equal and decently well rounded characters leads to better game experiences in my experience.
Now as far as the OP goes... while those stats are extremely good, I wouldn't say they break much. Your saving throws and skill checks will be a couple points higher, but having higher than normal "dump stats" doesn't give you a ton of benefit. If you feel you are too powerful, take some flavorful but not powerful feats instead of ability score improvements going forward. Or just reroll... or put an 18 in a dump stat instead of min/maxing. This could be a cool RP opportunity. Rather than an 18 con and Str, your pally is very smart and wise.
The fact that you are on the forum asking suggests that you think this will negatively effect your and your party's experience. RP sub-optimal choices or be more passive than you otherwise would be if you think your character is too dominant.
A DM can also very easily balance out the party by giving loot to the other members or by making the encounters a little harder and focusing attacks against the munchkin party member.
If having outlier high or outlier low stats on a party member was an obstacle that the DM isn't able to overcome, he should have had you guys do standard arrays...
Heya everyone!
I just joined a new campaign with a group of friends where they've already played a while and then asked me if I wanted to join as I moved closer to them. Anyway, they are currently level 4 and rolled for their stats with 4d6 remove the lowest. I figured cool and decided to make a Human Paladin, I'm a hardcore Paladin fanboy but honestly I've never played a Human Paladin so I figured I'd just go classic, with a Human Paladin of Torm Oath of Vengeance.
The stats I gained, are rather insane however. After Racials they add up too:
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 15
Wis: 15
Cha: 18
Since we roll for HP, I was obviously lucky in that area as well, meaning that my HP at level 4 is 46.
Add to this that I'm a variant Human with two feats (Resilient (Con) and Great Weapon Master). I'm a tiny tad worried about two things, the first one is simply group balance. Now everyone says it's alright and it's not that I don't believe them, but I also feel that they might simply be kind. The second thing is how do you play such over all strong characters. I mean how do you make them interesting and multifaceted? Asking for tips and tricks from people who has far more experience than me in that regard.
Lastly I also had the thought to manually lower a few stats, do you think that this is a good solution and something you should do, or is it more "you rolled 'em, go with 'em". I guess I'm simply asking what I "should" do and how to perhaps handle an eventual inbalance? Or am I just overthinking it all?
Cheers and I hope you all are well
/Mellitus
Personally, I think you're over thinking it all. Stats are nice, but stats alone don't make a character.
Having a Dex of 16 doesn't mean that your Paladin will pick a lock very well. Better than most, maybe. But, I'm sure a Rogue would be even better.
Create an interesting background and have fun role playing it.
When are stats too good?
When, at the same table, one player has a character whose stats are way better than the characters that the other players have, then the stats are too good.
If all of the players are using the same or comparable stats, then it is all good, and merely sets the tone for a fragile or epic adventure.
he / him
If you are worried about overshadowing other players, you might want to take more flavorful instead of powerful feats at your next ASI.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I just use a choice of arrays, and call it day.
If I was going to use random dice, I would have each player roll an array using 3d6, and let all of the players decide which one array they would all use.
he / him
Feats are uneven in power. Ideally, all feats will be updated to be more equally powerful to each other.
But in the meantime, some of the powerful feats are also important because of their flavor.
At first when 5e came out, and ruled it was illegal to go above an ability score of 20, I opposed it. But now I am seeing the wisdom of it. It removes alot of difficulties.
Perhaps if Levels 21 and higher become available in an epic tier, players can play with characters with scores beyond 20.
he / him
Personally I wouldn’t worry too much about it, you can always hold back a little bit if you feel others are being overshadowed. You don’t have to use GWM every attack. Plus, as a paladin you provide other benefits to the party with things like auras (when you get them) and as was mentioned pick up some feats to benefit the party. Inspiring Leader feat can help everyone as you use your natural charisma to bolster the group, etc..
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Just a thought experiment:
What if the proficiency bonus also determined the highest ability score available?
• Apprentice tier, level 1: +2 proficiency ( = highest ability score 15)
• Expert tier, level 5: +3 proficiency ( = highest ability score 17)
• Master tier, level 9: +4 proficiency ( = highest ability score 19)
• Sovereign tier, level 13: +5 proficiency ( = highest ability score 21)
• Legend tier, level 17: +6 proficiency ( = highest ability score 23)
• Epic tier, level 21: +7 proficiency ( = highest ability score 25)
etcetera
he / him
Stats being too good is way to subjective to really get any real answer.
I say they are high, but it shouldn't break the game at all. As others have said already, take some feats specifically to benefit the party. D&D is a co-op game and as long as you play the game with the group in mind, (Players and Characters) then everything should be fine.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Compare old-school Basic D&D ...
Basic tier (student, page, apprentice)
Expert tier (professional, squire, journeyer)
Master tier (chief, knight, master)
Champion tier (leader, noble, grandmaster, arch-, archon)
[[ Legend tier (legendary) ]]
Immortal tier (epic, transhuman, divine)
he / him
One issue with this is a thing called "bounded accuracy" which is the balancing mechanic for most combat in 5th edition. It pretty much relies on a PCs stats not exceeding 20 (except in very rare circumstances by RAW). Changing this throws the entire combat system out of whack in favor of the players, which can make it really hard for DMs to manage effective combat.
The actual stats themselves are largely irrelevant; a good DM will help balance the party and adventure. The important thing about rolled stats is the trust of your group and shared risk. The best way to achieve this is by rolling at the table with the other players. Then, there is no question of your integrity and an improbable result becomes a part of everyone's story. If you arrive at the table with three 18s and everything above a 15, they may not say anything, but they'll be very suspicious and that can cast a shadow on everything else you do down the road.
I would personally chuck those stats, wait until the first session, then roll fresh stats while telling the story about rolling unbelievable stats. This will not only validate whatever you end up rolling, but will also get you extra credit for valuing your party over your character. A good first impression will put a shine on everything you do moving forward.
As for how to play a powerful character:
(1) A +1 mod only tips the scale 5%. Having all 18s doesn't make the character a god by any means,
(2) Look at characters like Homelander from The Boys. Nearly an actual god, yet deeply, deeply disturbed. Stats are a small part of who a character actually is. They're your base aptitude. A wizard with Int 20 can still be an absent minded fool. They have all the information in the world rattling around in their head, but maybe they're too busy obsessing over their fan fiction to pay attention to other people's problems.
Exceptional natural ability is often paired with proportional internal conflict. The more easily you can glide through life, the less time you'll spend becoming well-adjusted. In other words... many of the most power powerful people are also the most fragile.
One thing to remember is that having a high stat for something that doesn't really tie into your class doesn't actually benefit you that much. That's why Strength and Intelligence are generally regarded as the two weakest stats if you're not playing a class that uses melee attacks or Int-based spellcasting.
The OP's stats are fantastic, but overall are unlikely to be anything close to gamebreaking.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They're pretty game breaking and will only continue to grow. Paladins are a pretty stat dependant class and here are at level 4 with a +2 save in everything. When we hit level 6, we're going to have a +6 to every save at the lowest, STR will be +8, Wis +9, and then CHA/CON will be +11.
Here we have a level 6 paladin that can't lose concentration unless something hits him for more than 22 damage on a single hit. That doesn't matter either because we're the tankiest individual alive.
This isn't even counting the fact that we have GWM, but we're a vengeance paladin so who cares about the penalty when you're rolling with advantage and a +7. If I have these stats at this class? Smites are never gonna happen. My spell slots are either bless or compelled duel. Not like I'm gonna lose concentration, even if I'm FORCING something to hit me.
The solution is to give everyone at the table the same stat levels so that every player feels the same but here we have an insane build that can consistently hit with GWM every single because I'm just gonna bless as often as I possibly can before combat, and then go ham.
Yeah your stats are at the absurd level, it could go wrong or it could go ok. All depends on how the other players handle situations and how you handle the character.
If your table tends to be "well hes got the best + at it so he should try it" than your probably gonna run into a lot of issues where your character does everything. If you take it more passively and let others do what should be their shtick even if you have a better shot at it than it'd probably be ok.
For instance party with a noble born eladrin paladin and a human sorcerer that's an entertainer. My Paladin has a better + in persuasion due to proficiency but I don't try to get involved in a lot of the rolls because the sorcerer is one of those friendly, easy to talk fun loving and bubbly people. It'd make more sense in a lot of situation for her to handle those types of rolls than my slightly more stuffy and noble blooded eladrin.. but when it comes to city officials n the such we swap off.
Maybe so. But. "Expertise" that doubles the proficiency bonus already messes with the math of bounded accuracy.
And. The higher numbers dont happen until the highest levels. Even an ability score of 20 wouldnt be possible until level 13, the sovereign tier. So most campaigns would be more bounded than they currently are now.
Moreover. The superhuman scores that seem should be within reach, such as giant strength, do eventually become accessible, albeit at the highest tiers only.
he / him
I've played characters with absurdly high stats before. My experience is that it levels out as you get higher in level, not that it gets more broken. With Ability Scores capped at 20, it's not giving them the ability to get higher strength or charisma than a paladin that was built using point buy (like the one I've been running for a year now). All it's doing is letting this paladin hit the cap a few levels early. So good for them, it's not like they're doing something that my paladin can't do since at 8th level I've got a 21 strength (Belt of Giant Strength) and an 18 Charisma and basically never fail saving throws because I'm using the class feature that's available to every paladin.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If I were you I would accept the stats I've rolled... trying to "fix" them is essentially cheating downwards and may end up nagging on your conscience in the furture.
I would look at the stats like this; now you have freedom to have more fun with ASI's... you're free to pick feats which give nifty little tricks rather than being super effective. I rolled my stats for my current character aswell, and while they aren't nearly as powerful as yours, they're still very good.
All I needed for my wizard was a high intelligence and a decent con, and I got that.. so I've taken the "skilled" feat with one of my ASIs because I want to build our party a base one day, so It'd be neat to be able to craft nice looking buildings once I get wall of stone ect.
In a game that in centred around luck of the dice I’d take the luck going in your favour! I had an unbelievably lucky first roll on my current character and it hasn’t made the game unbalanced at all, I’ve been able to take some more ‘flavoured’ feats because my spell casting stat was at 20 from level 1 but it’s certainly not been game breaking for us. I’ve also had some awful rolls at level up and others in the party have had great rolls so I feel it’s more even than less over time.
You win some, you lose some- enjoy the win I say!
Personally, I like using a standard array over rolling the d6s and I like using the standard hp calculation as well. Having functional , roughly equal and decently well rounded characters leads to better game experiences in my experience.
Now as far as the OP goes... while those stats are extremely good, I wouldn't say they break much. Your saving throws and skill checks will be a couple points higher, but having higher than normal "dump stats" doesn't give you a ton of benefit. If you feel you are too powerful, take some flavorful but not powerful feats instead of ability score improvements going forward. Or just reroll... or put an 18 in a dump stat instead of min/maxing. This could be a cool RP opportunity. Rather than an 18 con and Str, your pally is very smart and wise.
The fact that you are on the forum asking suggests that you think this will negatively effect your and your party's experience. RP sub-optimal choices or be more passive than you otherwise would be if you think your character is too dominant.
A DM can also very easily balance out the party by giving loot to the other members or by making the encounters a little harder and focusing attacks against the munchkin party member.
If having outlier high or outlier low stats on a party member was an obstacle that the DM isn't able to overcome, he should have had you guys do standard arrays...