Hello. New DnD player here. Just read on the developer notes the comment posted about a katana homebrew weapon. Just wondering, why would "1d8 damage versatile, but then allow finesse with it" break the game like the dev notes say?
I'm in the process of working on a homebrew class of my own, so I would like to better understand balance.
To elaborate on what Matthias has said; This hypothetical weapon does not necessarily provide a character so much more power than the existing options that they will begin trivializing encounters that follow the encounter building guidelines - so it's not going to "break the game" as in make the game not actually playable without some other alterations that "fix" it.
But because it does everything that some existing options do and then more, it does "break the game" as in make the existing options no longer worth choosing unless for some other reason you are forbidden from choosing the hypothetical new option. it's a matter of preference whether or not having "the one best option" is a problem or not.
I did craft one just called it an Elven Longsword, just copied the sun blade and got rid of all the radiant and bonus damage stuff, gave even a nonmagical version a very rare status.
The point on game-breaking - If such weapons existed in a gameworld, unless they were massively more expensive than any other weapon, they would be the only weapons anyone used.
Which is exactly why the one in my games is very rare it costs an extravagant amount.
Essentially turns it into a semi magical weapon. Expensive is one wall you can put in to not make it generally available. Alternatively it is so rare that you have to go to a particular location (only known place they are made) and perform something to receive this nearly magical weapon.
For my friends we just reskinned the longsword into the katana, and rapier into wakizashi, changing the damage type as appropriate so one could be strength based the other would be dex based. find something fun and go for it.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Simple answer, because it renders most other light weapons useless, thus everybody will have that katana and that will be it. the goal of versatile, finesse was add that versatility to certain weapons, you know make a difference. between weapons. if you start giving all the abilities to the same weapons, then everyone will just use that weapon over anything else.
exemple, greatsword versus maul versus great axe. you ever use a great axe if you are crit based, because it can go way higher then greatsword or maul. but you basically choose maul or greatsword only if you want bludgeoning instead of slashing, which makes no difference whatsoever damage wise.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Mechanically, a Katana should be no different then a longsword. Any argument for one to be finesse-able would apply to the other.
Unless you make the katana a reskinned rapier with slashing damage instead of piercing - in wich case finesse would be fine, but it would lose versatile. The damage type is mostly irrelevant now anyway seeing as there is very little that is resistant or vulnerable to any one type of mundane weapon damage.
In all retrospect the Katana could very well (and should) be a versatile and finess weapon granted it should cost alot more and br rarer, for the simple fact Katana and long sword crafting is different, making a katana is art, a long sword is just a craft. No for mechanical reasons I see your point, as this makes the Katana would be able to use either dex or strength for an attack bonus, and still be used 2 handed, but the Katana is truly that a sword made to be graceful, beautiful, blade of war. So I agree it should have both properties as it is the only blade in existence made to be used so!
Now my ramblings mean nothing but its a point that needed to be made. Katana is not just a long sword, it's a blade of extreme quality and beauty.
In all retrospect the Katana could very well (and should) be a versatile and finess weapon granted it should cost alot more and br rarer, for the simple fact Katana and long sword crafting is different, making a katana is art, a long sword is just a craft. No for mechanical reasons I see your point, as this makes the Katana would be able to use either dex or strength for an attack bonus, and still be used 2 handed, but the Katana is truly that a sword made to be graceful, beautiful, blade of war. So I agree it should have both properties as it is the only blade in existence made to be used so!
Now my ramblings mean nothing but its a point that needed to be made. Katana is not just a long sword, it's a blade of extreme quality and beauty.
Wait, what?
It almost sounds like you're trying to say that the katana *should* be represented as being better than the longsword.
I'm not opposed to treating katanas differently from longswords. If I were going to do so, however, I would also make it cost considerably more as making a katana was more akin to magical item crafting than typical blacksmithing. I would price it at 500 or so gp and treat it as a magical item, not unlike a sun blade, though without the bonus to attack and damage.
In all retrospect the Katana could very well (and should) be a versatile and finess weapon granted it should cost alot more and br rarer, for the simple fact Katana and long sword crafting is different, making a katana is art, a long sword is just a craft. No for mechanical reasons I see your point, as this makes the Katana would be able to use either dex or strength for an attack bonus, and still be used 2 handed, but the Katana is truly that a sword made to be graceful, beautiful, blade of war. So I agree it should have both properties as it is the only blade in existence made to be used so!
Now my ramblings mean nothing but its a point that needed to be made. Katana is not just a long sword, it's a blade of extreme quality and beauty.
There's... a lot to unpack here.
I mean, it's perfectly okay to say, "Hey, I think katanas are rad as hell, and they look awesome. I'm not so into the way long swords look though." It's another thing to start talking about objectivity in regards to which is the superior weapon, either aesthetically or functionally.
There's also the implied bit of "art" being superior to "craft." I don't think the two are separate things, nor is one a "lesser" form of the other. Art is the result of craft. The act of painting is a craft, a painting is a piece of art. You can use them colloquially in an interchangeable sort of way, but one is not above the other.
And stating that a katana is the only blade designed to be used "with dexterity" and "two-handed" is simply untrue. All blades are meant to be wielded with a high degree of dexterity. However, mechanically speaking, in a game like D&D, the DEX stat already does a lot of heavy lifting in the defense department, and to allow it more power in the offense department is unbalancing. It makes DEX too powerful of a stat. Thus there has to be some trade off. But from a real life perspective, there is not a significant difference between the "amount of dexterity" required to wield a katana or a long sword. There's a difference in technique, and a difference in the defenses one was meant to encounter to the other, but in the level of skill department it's a wash.
Don't get me wrong here, if you totally dig the katana, I'm not telling you not to like it. I'm simply stating that you liking it doesn't make it an objectively better weapon. Nor is there a significant difference between the amount of "art" put in to creating a baseline version of either weapon. Again, don't get me wrong, there's some pretty intense techniques used in the construction of a katana that were used primarily to counteract the generally poor quality of the steel available, and the Japanese have a culture that mythologizes the honing of a craft in to an end in itself. But ultimately, those techniques and attitudes don't translate in to a weapon that is objectively better than another.
In real combat the primary considerations for what weapon is better than another are context and training. Presuming both weapons are made from adequate materials by a person that knows what they're doing. That's pretty much it.
If anything, I would argue that if you wanted to determine which was the "objectively better" weapon you would think about what sort of resistance they would encounter. A katana vs bare flesh and a long sword vs bare flesh are functionally very close. The katana is a slightly better chopper, but either one is going to put an unarmored opponent in the dirt pretty easily. But introduce armor and the straight blade and narrow point of a long sword makes for an easier time piercing mail. The katana's curved blade and wide point are less conducive to that purpose. Neither one is going through plate. For that reason I'd probably give the... edge... to the long sword. And even then, that's presuming the long sword in question doesn't have a broad tip. In that case they are once again a wash in all categories. The advantage would to to the one with the better reach.
Personally speaking, if I were going to homebrew a katana it would simply be a reskinned/renamed long sword. For all intents and purposes, they're pretty much the same thing. But I also think that STR based to-hit is only a mechanical game-balance compromise. In real life, if you're trying to hit someone with a weapon, you're using "dexterity." Well, you're really using your whole suite of abilities, but that's a different argument.
Most games not just DnD get it the wrong way round in that most swords should be dexterity/agility based weapons and not strength and that bows should be strength base so agruing that a katana should be Finesse means you are arguing against a lot of the system you are playing.
The opinion that "if you have a weapon that does this AND that is a problem because everyone will want that weapon" does not hold water with me. This is the very basis for min-max approaches to problem solving. There are all manner of weapons in the game that are not as good as a 1 handed 1d8 weapon. And because of this, few people ever select them. I think the mention that a Katana could be a finesse slashing damage weapon sounds pretty good. It sounds to me like someone wants to make a campaign with a katana. Why not?
I get what your saying truly. And I was wrong for dividing them into craft and art, I see them as the same in most places as well but few do, but the common katana people reference is more elegant and dexterous, but if you had a horse cutter (I always forget the Japanese name) compared to a longsword the would be str, as the horse cutter is made to cut horses in two. But we could spend days arguing that it also depends on the longsword. So and to be honest i like prefer a longsword in the end because it would be a more anti armor weapon logically its better for a stronger person. So you have great points really and i agree, but I would still give the common katana the finesse property. You make great points and if we considered all those points we would have a much more complicated game, which I for one am fine with, but others not so much. I also get that I am arguing against myself as well, but I am against just reskinning a longsword. Again great points you considered, as a lover of blades myself I literally applaud you.
This is not sarcasm as I have the blantan inability to sound sincere.
Hello. New DnD player here. Just read on the developer notes the comment posted about a katana homebrew weapon. Just wondering, why would "1d8 damage versatile, but then allow finesse with it" break the game like the dev notes say?
I'm in the process of working on a homebrew class of my own, so I would like to better understand balance.
A weapon that did 1d8 damage and had versatile (1d10), finesse, and no disadvantages would be strictly better than a longsword, battleaxe, or rapier.
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To elaborate on what Matthias has said; This hypothetical weapon does not necessarily provide a character so much more power than the existing options that they will begin trivializing encounters that follow the encounter building guidelines - so it's not going to "break the game" as in make the game not actually playable without some other alterations that "fix" it.
But because it does everything that some existing options do and then more, it does "break the game" as in make the existing options no longer worth choosing unless for some other reason you are forbidden from choosing the hypothetical new option. it's a matter of preference whether or not having "the one best option" is a problem or not.
I did craft one just called it an Elven Longsword, just copied the sun blade and got rid of all the radiant and bonus damage stuff, gave even a nonmagical version a very rare status.
If you did something like this, I would make the katana significantly more expensive than a longsword.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe point on game-breaking - If such weapons existed in a gameworld, unless they were massively more expensive than any other weapon, they would be the only weapons anyone used.
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Which is exactly why the one in my games is very rare it costs an extravagant amount.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Simple answer, because it renders most other light weapons useless, thus everybody will have that katana and that will be it.
the goal of versatile, finesse was add that versatility to certain weapons, you know make a difference. between weapons. if you start giving all the abilities to the same weapons, then everyone will just use that weapon over anything else.
exemple, greatsword versus maul versus great axe.
you ever use a great axe if you are crit based, because it can go way higher then greatsword or maul. but you basically choose maul or greatsword only if you want bludgeoning instead of slashing, which makes no difference whatsoever damage wise.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Thank you all for the responses!
Mechanically, a Katana should be no different then a longsword. Any argument for one to be finesse-able would apply to the other.
In all retrospect the Katana could very well (and should) be a versatile and finess weapon granted it should cost alot more and br rarer, for the simple fact Katana and long sword crafting is different, making a katana is art, a long sword is just a craft. No for mechanical reasons I see your point, as this makes the Katana would be able to use either dex or strength for an attack bonus, and still be used 2 handed, but the Katana is truly that a sword made to be graceful, beautiful, blade of war. So I agree it should have both properties as it is the only blade in existence made to be used so!
Now my ramblings mean nothing but its a point that needed to be made. Katana is not just a long sword, it's a blade of extreme quality and beauty.
Wait, what?
It almost sounds like you're trying to say that the katana *should* be represented as being better than the longsword.
Why?
I'm not opposed to treating katanas differently from longswords. If I were going to do so, however, I would also make it cost considerably more as making a katana was more akin to magical item crafting than typical blacksmithing. I would price it at 500 or so gp and treat it as a magical item, not unlike a sun blade, though without the bonus to attack and damage.
There's... a lot to unpack here.
I mean, it's perfectly okay to say, "Hey, I think katanas are rad as hell, and they look awesome. I'm not so into the way long swords look though." It's another thing to start talking about objectivity in regards to which is the superior weapon, either aesthetically or functionally.
There's also the implied bit of "art" being superior to "craft." I don't think the two are separate things, nor is one a "lesser" form of the other. Art is the result of craft. The act of painting is a craft, a painting is a piece of art. You can use them colloquially in an interchangeable sort of way, but one is not above the other.
And stating that a katana is the only blade designed to be used "with dexterity" and "two-handed" is simply untrue. All blades are meant to be wielded with a high degree of dexterity. However, mechanically speaking, in a game like D&D, the DEX stat already does a lot of heavy lifting in the defense department, and to allow it more power in the offense department is unbalancing. It makes DEX too powerful of a stat. Thus there has to be some trade off. But from a real life perspective, there is not a significant difference between the "amount of dexterity" required to wield a katana or a long sword. There's a difference in technique, and a difference in the defenses one was meant to encounter to the other, but in the level of skill department it's a wash.
Don't get me wrong here, if you totally dig the katana, I'm not telling you not to like it. I'm simply stating that you liking it doesn't make it an objectively better weapon. Nor is there a significant difference between the amount of "art" put in to creating a baseline version of either weapon. Again, don't get me wrong, there's some pretty intense techniques used in the construction of a katana that were used primarily to counteract the generally poor quality of the steel available, and the Japanese have a culture that mythologizes the honing of a craft in to an end in itself. But ultimately, those techniques and attitudes don't translate in to a weapon that is objectively better than another.
In real combat the primary considerations for what weapon is better than another are context and training. Presuming both weapons are made from adequate materials by a person that knows what they're doing. That's pretty much it.
If anything, I would argue that if you wanted to determine which was the "objectively better" weapon you would think about what sort of resistance they would encounter. A katana vs bare flesh and a long sword vs bare flesh are functionally very close. The katana is a slightly better chopper, but either one is going to put an unarmored opponent in the dirt pretty easily. But introduce armor and the straight blade and narrow point of a long sword makes for an easier time piercing mail. The katana's curved blade and wide point are less conducive to that purpose. Neither one is going through plate. For that reason I'd probably give the... edge... to the long sword. And even then, that's presuming the long sword in question doesn't have a broad tip. In that case they are once again a wash in all categories. The advantage would to to the one with the better reach.
Personally speaking, if I were going to homebrew a katana it would simply be a reskinned/renamed long sword. For all intents and purposes, they're pretty much the same thing. But I also think that STR based to-hit is only a mechanical game-balance compromise. In real life, if you're trying to hit someone with a weapon, you're using "dexterity." Well, you're really using your whole suite of abilities, but that's a different argument.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih7mzgyMyNI
Here you go, coincidentally Scholagladatoria posted a video yesterday that addresses quite a bit of this.
Most games not just DnD get it the wrong way round in that most swords should be dexterity/agility based weapons and not strength and that bows should be strength base so agruing that a katana should be Finesse means you are arguing against a lot of the system you are playing.
The opinion that "if you have a weapon that does this AND that is a problem because everyone will want that weapon" does not hold water with me. This is the very basis for min-max approaches to problem solving. There are all manner of weapons in the game that are not as good as a 1 handed 1d8 weapon. And because of this, few people ever select them. I think the mention that a Katana could be a finesse slashing damage weapon sounds pretty good. It sounds to me like someone wants to make a campaign with a katana. Why not?
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I get what your saying truly. And I was wrong for dividing them into craft and art, I see them as the same in most places as well but few do, but the common katana people reference is more elegant and dexterous, but if you had a horse cutter (I always forget the Japanese name) compared to a longsword the would be str, as the horse cutter is made to cut horses in two. But we could spend days arguing that it also depends on the longsword. So and to be honest i like prefer a longsword in the end because it would be a more anti armor weapon logically its better for a stronger person. So you have great points really and i agree, but I would still give the common katana the finesse property. You make great points and if we considered all those points we would have a much more complicated game, which I for one am fine with, but others not so much. I also get that I am arguing against myself as well, but I am against just reskinning a longsword. Again great points you considered, as a lover of blades myself I literally applaud you.
This is not sarcasm as I have the blantan inability to sound sincere.