4d6 is supported by power-gamers for one reason, and one reason only: to get better stats than other versions of stat generation.
That’s not true at all
Sposta, I respect your opinions. I really do. But there is nothing that 4d6 provides that the standard array or the 27 point buy does not, other than a higher starting stat pool.
Randomness.
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When did this go from a problem with the stats rolled for a character to the older editions seemed to have DMs who liked killing off player characters at their whim?
I assumed this was about a specific character and how it was viewed poorly instead of a potentially good challenge to roleplay?
I know there was claims this was just an attempt to needle people's belief in how they handle character generation, but seriously?
I believe it had to do with someone drifting the conversation from how they hated a particular character generation method and bashing anyone who used it to how you should trust the GM for everything.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
4d6 is supported by power-gamers for one reason, and one reason only: to get better stats than other versions of stat generation.
That’s not true at all
Sposta, I respect your opinions. I really do. But there is nothing that 4d6 provides that the standard array or the 27 point buy does not, other than a higher starting stat pool.
Like a potentially lower starting stat pool...? The point of rolling stats in order is to have the dice partially determine what kind of character I will discover. If I don’t roll randomly in order, I cannot have that experience. Do I always roll in order? No. But do I like to? Yes. Is that something I can do with the standard array?
Well, theoretically you could randomly assign the elements of the standard array to your stats and it would achieve the same thing as rolling 4d6 in order. You could write down the names of the stats on say index cards, shuffle them, and then arrange the array in order from highest to lowest. Then the order in which you pull the cards determines which number goes to where.
You could use dice for it, too. Assign the stats in order from 1-6 on d6 (STR = 1, etc), and then say "OK, the 15 goes into...", re-rolling repeat results.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
4d6 is supported by power-gamers for one reason, and one reason only: to get better stats than other versions of stat generation.
That’s not true at all
Sposta, I respect your opinions. I really do. But there is nothing that 4d6 provides that the standard array or the 27 point buy does not, other than a higher starting stat pool.
It provides stats you don’t expect. Higher or lower. A fighter with a weirdly high cha score who then decides to use that as a reason to play an instrument. A wizard with a bad dex that’s always tripping over things. Rolling gives you stats you wouldn’t have chosen for yourself, and so helps you to make characters with quirks you might not have otherwise done. Maybe you can choose to generate those, but some of us like when it comes up accidentally. Like how it’s always better when a favorite song just comes on the radio instead of choosing to queue it up. There’s a joy in the unexpected. It makes you stretch your creativity in a direction you wouldn’t normally.
And honestly, as someone who started with the red box, there’s a bit of a nostalgia factor. It’s the way that feels like D&D to me.
Well, theoretically you could randomly assign the elements of the standard array to your stats and it would achieve the same thing as rolling 4d6 in order. You could write down the names of the stats on say index cards, shuffle them, and then arrange the array in order from highest to lowest. Then the order in which you pull the cards determines which number goes to where.
You could use dice for it, too. Assign the stats in order from 1-6 on d6 (STR = 1, etc), and then say "OK, the 15 goes into...", re-rolling repeat results.
Sure, but that's not the method described in the PHB. The official standard array and point-buy methods from the PHB don't have randomness.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Well, theoretically you could randomly assign the elements of the standard array to your stats and it would achieve the same thing as rolling 4d6 in order. You could write down the names of the stats on say index cards, shuffle them, and then arrange the array in order from highest to lowest. Then the order in which you pull the cards determines which number goes to where.
You could use dice for it, too. Assign the stats in order from 1-6 on d6 (STR = 1, etc), and then say "OK, the 15 goes into...", re-rolling repeat results.
But that’s still just the same 6 numbers getting shuffled around. That’s not the same thing as rolling 6 potentially random numbers.
I agree with the problem for a DM being if the character ends up with such crap stats and another one in the party really hits well, it is exceedingly difficult to balance encounters (specifically combat) because of such a disparity in abilities at similar levels. As a DM I would likely tell the player to put a 16 in their main stat and live with the rest. It would still leave all the other stats trash, and MAY get the player to rethink a class choice if they had considered a dual ability sponge, like the Monk (There are several others, but Monk popped to mind immediately) It would at least then be workable from combat sense. Character would be interesting to play, but not as debilitating as having their prime stat 3-4 points behind everyone else.
So far as using it to generate characters? I am going to propose it to our group for something. I bet we'll all be on board (and flesh out any potential issues) It would be very interesting if everyone was quite sub-optimal, so everyone was behind what we would expect them to be for their levels. An interesting experiment for sure.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Well, theoretically you could randomly assign the elements of the standard array to your stats and it would achieve the same thing as rolling 4d6 in order. You could write down the names of the stats on say index cards, shuffle them, and then arrange the array in order from highest to lowest. Then the order in which you pull the cards determines which number goes to where.
You could use dice for it, too. Assign the stats in order from 1-6 on d6 (STR = 1, etc), and then say "OK, the 15 goes into...", re-rolling repeat results.
Sure, but that's not the method described in the PHB. The official standard array and point-buy methods from the PHB don't have randomness.
Actually the official method is still 4d6 : "You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper."
After that, the others are variants: "If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8." and "Variant: Customizing Ability Scores"
Being variants doesn't make them any less official. It just makes them not the standard method. They're in the book. If you tell me to use the standard array or the 27-point point buy, I know exactly what to do.
Actually the official method is still 4d6 : "You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper."
After that, the others are variants: "If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8." and "Variant: Customizing Ability Scores"
Not quite correct. Point buy is variant, but standard array is not -- it's in the same block as rolling.
On the whole debate about whether die rolling makes more interesting characters: die rolling when you cannot rearrange your stats makes more interesting characters. However, if you can rearrange stats, it's just "instead of putting a 15 in my main stat and an 8 in my dump stat, I put my highest roll in my main stat and my lowest roll in my dump stat", which barely affects how you conceive of or play a character.
die rolling when you cannot rearrange your stats makes more interesting characters.
Yup.
That and it also forces people to make up a character that suits the stats, rather than making up a character first and then trying to cram the stats into that concept.
Now, doing concept-then-points works, as long as one is willing to concede to the forms and realities of the game. But saying, "Well, my concept is a spellcasting Barbarian who is Strong, Agile, Tough, Super-smart, Wise, and Charismatic and can walk on water," is where we get into trouble.
Or as Colveille has put it, the guy who wants to play Wolverine from X-men in D&D, and then is upset that the rules won't really let you make a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
die rolling when you cannot rearrange your stats makes more interesting characters.
Yup.
That and it also forces people to make up a character that suits the stats, rather than making up a character first and then trying to cram the stats into that concept.
Now, doing concept-then-points works, as long as one is willing to concede to the forms and realities of the game. But saying, "Well, my concept is a spellcasting Barbarian who is Strong, Agile, Tough, Super-smart, Wise, and Charismatic and can walk on water," is where we get into trouble.
Or as Colveille has put it, the guy who wants to play Wolverine from X-men in D&D, and then is upset that the rules won't really let you make a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
I’m reminded of a saying from advertising: “Good, Fast, or Cheap, pick two.”
die rolling when you cannot rearrange your stats makes more interesting characters.
Yup.
That and it also forces people to make up a character that suits the stats, rather than making up a character first and then trying to cram the stats into that concept.
Now, doing concept-then-points works, as long as one is willing to concede to the forms and realities of the game. But saying, "Well, my concept is a spellcasting Barbarian who is Strong, Agile, Tough, Super-smart, Wise, and Charismatic and can walk on water," is where we get into trouble.
Or as Colveille has put it, the guy who wants to play Wolverine from X-men in D&D, and then is upset that the rules won't really let you make a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
I still think my premise holds. There are may ways to skin this cat. Like I said some time ago, the expected value of the 4d6 method is 73.44. The standard array is 72. Not a massive difference, but enough. Imagine a DM saying to a player, "OK, roll your stats, but I am going to shave or bump the stats to 72 points, and your max score after species specific points added is going to be 17", most of these power-gamers will either walk away from the table or say "That is no different that a 27 point buy".
But the nut of it is this: You would think there would be as many sub-standard starting stat blocks as there are superior starting stat blocks. But we don't see that in the gaming world, and the reason is the math. I stole this from another site. This post is from 2016. It gives the precise breakdown of starting rolls.
And a key takeaway from this post: "4d6 drop lowest will give an average score of 12.24, which thankfully is easy enough to look up online through various dice rolling programs. You have a 5.7% chance for a score below 8 (or lower than the point buy minimum) and a 13.0% chance for a score above 15 (or above the point buy minimum)."
a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
The standard short/long rest system, Dex anything 14+, we don’t use the optional injuries stuff, expertise in Perception, at least 1 level in Monk, or at least the unarmed fighting style, Tabaxi reskin. But honestly, he’s gotta have at least a couple levels of Barbarian because he’s literally a berserker, and you know he also got 2nd-wind and Action Surge, and he has rogue levels too.
Okay, that one was kind of a gimme.
Ghost Rider was much harder, but once I reskinned find steed for the bike, a Halberd that did bludgeoning damage and a judicious application of such spells as Spiritual Weapon and the Channel Divinity powers as the Penance Stare, Vengeance Paladin all the way.
a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
The standard short/long rest system, Dex anything 14+, we don’t use the optional injuries stuff, expertise in Perception, at least 1 level in Monk, or at least the unarmed fighting style, Tabaxi reskin. But honestly, he’s gotta have at least a couple levels of Barbarian because he’s literally a berserker, and you know he also got 2nd-wind and Action Surge, and he has rogue levels too.
Okay, that one was kind of a gimme.
Ghost Rider was much harder, but once I reskinned find steed for the bike, a Halberd that did bludgeoning damage and a judicious application of such spells as Spiritual Weapon and the Channel Divinity powers as the Penance Stare, Vengeance Paladin all the way.
I don't know how many times I have heard a player, and I am talking experienced players, even DM's playing in someone else's game, say "I want to play superhero XYZ".
That was the joke. I did actually build that Paladin though, a fallen Aasimar. She was badass.
Don't get me started on Fallen Aasimar, especially the Conquest Paladin flavour. That combination is one of the reasons I don't allow Aasimar at my table.
The mean point value of stats on 4k3, rolled fairly (evaluating cost below 8 as -1 per, cost above 15 as +2 per) is 5.05, or 30.3 for six stats, but it's prone to being less efficiently distributed (odd numbers in stats you're never going to raise, etc), so it's not a lot better than 27 point buy (it is straight better than standard array, because standard array is also not efficiently distributed). However, the mean value when the DM lets you reroll 'bad' stat is is higher than point buy (how much higher depends on how the DM defines low), so in practice, rolling for stats will be power gaming.
If you want to achieve balanced but also random, there are methods. For example, 'number stats from 1-6, roll xd6, and for every die which comes up matching the number of that stat, gain points in that stat'.
That was the joke. I did actually build that Paladin though, a fallen Aasimar. She was badass.
Don't get me started on Fallen Aasimar, especially the Conquest Paladin flavour. That combination is one of the reasons I don't allow Aasimar at my table.
Well I did Frankenstein Conquest with Vengeance to make it, and it was a Fallen Aasimar. Also Haunted One background for extra emo, and I would have tacked on Hollow One too just ‘cause.
That was the joke. I did actually build that Paladin though, a fallen Aasimar. She was badass.
Don't get me started on Fallen Aasimar, especially the Conquest Paladin flavour. That combination is one of the reasons I don't allow Aasimar at my table.
Well I did Frankenstein Conquest with Vengeance to make it, and it was a Fallen Aasimar. Also Haunted One background for extra emo, and I would have tacked on Hollow One too just ‘cause.
That can be the topic of an entirely different thread: "Why Paladin's at 7th level and beyond are OP."
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Randomness.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I believe it had to do with someone drifting the conversation from how they hated a particular character generation method and bashing anyone who used it to how you should trust the GM for everything.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Like a potentially lower starting stat pool...? The point of rolling stats in order is to have the dice partially determine what kind of character I will discover. If I don’t roll randomly in order, I cannot have that experience. Do I always roll in order? No. But do I like to? Yes. Is that something I can do with the standard array?
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Well, theoretically you could randomly assign the elements of the standard array to your stats and it would achieve the same thing as rolling 4d6 in order. You could write down the names of the stats on say index cards, shuffle them, and then arrange the array in order from highest to lowest. Then the order in which you pull the cards determines which number goes to where.
You could use dice for it, too. Assign the stats in order from 1-6 on d6 (STR = 1, etc), and then say "OK, the 15 goes into...", re-rolling repeat results.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
It provides stats you don’t expect. Higher or lower. A fighter with a weirdly high cha score who then decides to use that as a reason to play an instrument. A wizard with a bad dex that’s always tripping over things. Rolling gives you stats you wouldn’t have chosen for yourself, and so helps you to make characters with quirks you might not have otherwise done. Maybe you can choose to generate those, but some of us like when it comes up accidentally. Like how it’s always better when a favorite song just comes on the radio instead of choosing to queue it up. There’s a joy in the unexpected. It makes you stretch your creativity in a direction you wouldn’t normally.
And honestly, as someone who started with the red box, there’s a bit of a nostalgia factor. It’s the way that feels like D&D to me.
Sure, but that's not the method described in the PHB. The official standard array and point-buy methods from the PHB don't have randomness.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
But that’s still just the same 6 numbers getting shuffled around. That’s not the same thing as rolling 6 potentially random numbers.
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I agree with the problem for a DM being if the character ends up with such crap stats and another one in the party really hits well, it is exceedingly difficult to balance encounters (specifically combat) because of such a disparity in abilities at similar levels. As a DM I would likely tell the player to put a 16 in their main stat and live with the rest. It would still leave all the other stats trash, and MAY get the player to rethink a class choice if they had considered a dual ability sponge, like the Monk (There are several others, but Monk popped to mind immediately) It would at least then be workable from combat sense. Character would be interesting to play, but not as debilitating as having their prime stat 3-4 points behind everyone else.
So far as using it to generate characters? I am going to propose it to our group for something. I bet we'll all be on board (and flesh out any potential issues) It would be very interesting if everyone was quite sub-optimal, so everyone was behind what we would expect them to be for their levels. An interesting experiment for sure.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Being variants doesn't make them any less official. It just makes them not the standard method. They're in the book. If you tell me to use the standard array or the 27-point point buy, I know exactly what to do.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Not quite correct. Point buy is variant, but standard array is not -- it's in the same block as rolling.
On the whole debate about whether die rolling makes more interesting characters: die rolling when you cannot rearrange your stats makes more interesting characters. However, if you can rearrange stats, it's just "instead of putting a 15 in my main stat and an 8 in my dump stat, I put my highest roll in my main stat and my lowest roll in my dump stat", which barely affects how you conceive of or play a character.
Yup.
That and it also forces people to make up a character that suits the stats, rather than making up a character first and then trying to cram the stats into that concept.
Now, doing concept-then-points works, as long as one is willing to concede to the forms and realities of the game. But saying, "Well, my concept is a spellcasting Barbarian who is Strong, Agile, Tough, Super-smart, Wise, and Charismatic and can walk on water," is where we get into trouble.
Or as Colveille has put it, the guy who wants to play Wolverine from X-men in D&D, and then is upset that the rules won't really let you make a guy with nearly unlimited regenerative powers, superhuman dexterity, an adamantium skeleton, enhanced senses, martial arts training, and claws that go "snikt."
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I’m reminded of a saying from advertising: “Good, Fast, or Cheap, pick two.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I still think my premise holds. There are may ways to skin this cat. Like I said some time ago, the expected value of the 4d6 method is 73.44. The standard array is 72. Not a massive difference, but enough. Imagine a DM saying to a player, "OK, roll your stats, but I am going to shave or bump the stats to 72 points, and your max score after species specific points added is going to be 17", most of these power-gamers will either walk away from the table or say "That is no different that a 27 point buy".
But the nut of it is this: You would think there would be as many sub-standard starting stat blocks as there are superior starting stat blocks. But we don't see that in the gaming world, and the reason is the math. I stole this from another site. This post is from 2016. It gives the precise breakdown of starting rolls.
And a key takeaway from this post: "4d6 drop lowest will give an average score of 12.24, which thankfully is easy enough to look up online through various dice rolling programs. You have a 5.7% chance for a score below 8 (or lower than the point buy minimum) and a 13.0% chance for a score above 15 (or above the point buy minimum)."
The standard short/long rest system, Dex anything 14+, we don’t use the optional injuries stuff, expertise in Perception, at least 1 level in Monk, or at least the unarmed fighting style, Tabaxi reskin. But honestly, he’s gotta have at least a couple levels of Barbarian because he’s literally a berserker, and you know he also got 2nd-wind and Action Surge, and he has rogue levels too.
Okay, that one was kind of a gimme.
Ghost Rider was much harder, but once I reskinned find steed for the bike, a Halberd that did bludgeoning damage and a judicious application of such spells as Spiritual Weapon and the Channel Divinity powers as the Penance Stare, Vengeance Paladin all the way.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I don't know how many times I have heard a player, and I am talking experienced players, even DM's playing in someone else's game, say "I want to play superhero XYZ".
That was the joke. I did actually build that Paladin though, a fallen Aasimar. She was badass.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Don't get me started on Fallen Aasimar, especially the Conquest Paladin flavour. That combination is one of the reasons I don't allow Aasimar at my table.
The mean point value of stats on 4k3, rolled fairly (evaluating cost below 8 as -1 per, cost above 15 as +2 per) is 5.05, or 30.3 for six stats, but it's prone to being less efficiently distributed (odd numbers in stats you're never going to raise, etc), so it's not a lot better than 27 point buy (it is straight better than standard array, because standard array is also not efficiently distributed). However, the mean value when the DM lets you reroll 'bad' stat is is higher than point buy (how much higher depends on how the DM defines low), so in practice, rolling for stats will be power gaming.
If you want to achieve balanced but also random, there are methods. For example, 'number stats from 1-6, roll xd6, and for every die which comes up matching the number of that stat, gain points in that stat'.
Well I did Frankenstein Conquest with Vengeance to make it, and it was a Fallen Aasimar. Also Haunted One background for extra emo, and I would have tacked on Hollow One too just ‘cause.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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That can be the topic of an entirely different thread: "Why Paladin's at 7th level and beyond are OP."