as 5th edition came out I was if your rolling your stats it is done at the table with other players and myself present, if you want to create a PC away from the game table you can use Standard array or Point buy, as I have seen to many players that have incredible luck rolling stats alone.
With an INT of 11 I think I'm pretty safe in front of him with burning hands.
Eh, int doesn't matter that much to damage casters. For someone with a Dex save of +2, a save DC of 10 (save half) is only 10% less damage than a save DC of 13 (10 vs 16), whereas against AC 14, +2/1d8 is 50% less damage than +5/1d8+3.
There were definately people who posted that the stats were unworkable (after all there was a 4, and it was in an optimization group).
However, there were also plenty of others who suggested the poster play specific race and class combinations. I can't seem to find the post to share more specific examples but one that really stood out for me was the suggestion that he play a Half-Elf Hexblade Warlock with the 4 in strength representing a birth defect or damage from a brush with disease as a child. This debilitating issue could be the characters motivation for the pact. The 9s went to Int and Wis. 11 went to Con (+1 from race makes it 12), 13 went to Dex (+1 from race made it 14) and 14 went to CHA (+2 from race made it 16).
There were similar solutions for Sorcerer. Gnome Wizard, Wizard, and Dwarf Paladin just to name a few. I don't recall many V human or new lineage suggestions on this one which was unusual for that group..
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Gideon Hawke Just a Valor Bard trying to find his way through D&D after a 20+ year "break". Enjoying being back and sharing with my RL family.
I get where the OP is coming from but it was put in a pretty hostile method to start which sets a tone.
I dont mind 4d6 drop the lowest and plug em where you want, I dont mind standard array (probably my favorite) and dont mind points buy either. BUT what I do find fairly.. I guess funny.. or perhaps hypocritical is when people defend 4d6 by saying stuff like it prevents characters from being the same, and it prevents power gaming.
It doesn't stop samness because your plugging those stats into the same scores anyway, its just a matter to what degree are they different than say standard array. and it doesn't stop power gaming either because I can't remember the last time I saw someone roll their 4d6 and that was the end of it. It's always ooh. let me reroll, or drop that sub 8 or if your score doesn't total something reroll or roll 3 arrays pick the best.
There's always some POWER GAMER caveat to 4d6, and as OP stated using 4d6 is really just about getting those sweet sweet 18s, its not about diversity of build you can do that with either SA or PB, its not about "the gamble" as everyones got rules to mitigate the gamble, its just about getting those max stats at lvl 1. AND if they are just made to accept it what happens? LEEEEEROOOOY JEEENKINS!!! The lvl 1 wizard with a death wish or the character that purposely smooth talks his way into getting the guards or bar patrons to attack to die in a brawl. or the classic get into 1 fight "oh man.. I I think Ill go back to farming"
I won't lie when we do 4d6 the only thing im thining while rolling is I want my primary stat to be 18 and hope my secondary can be around 16. I'm not rolling going 'man I hope I can play a fighter with a 5 in my dump stat!"
With an INT of 11 I think I'm pretty safe in front of him with burning hands.
Eh, int doesn't matter that much to damage casters. For someone with a Dex save of +2, a save DC of 10 (save half) is only 10% less damage than a save DC of 13 (10 vs 16), whereas against AC 14, +2/1d8 is 50% less damage than +5/1d8+3.
And so of course the way you do it and the way you perceive it is the only reality. The rest of us who keep saying that we don’t do it that way or for those reasons are, what, lying?
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
Taking the ASI at 4th and the Feat at 8th makes no sense. You only benefit from half the ASI anyway until the half-feat. May as well take the half-feat first for the double benefit and then the ASI at 8th.
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
Taking the ASI at 4th and the Feat at 8th makes no sense. You only benefit from half the ASI anyway until the half-feat. May as well take the half-feat first for the double benefit and then the ASI at 8th.
Probably would as that does make the most sense. It is fairly cliché, but still a viable character and one I would be excited to play.
WARNING: Personal Anecdote Incoming. Spoiler'd Because Reasons Mostly throwing this up here because if the whole dang thread can start with one player's secondhand account of stat rolling filtered through a Facebook group, some direct experience would be admissible as well. And since people just looove to label me an Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Metagaming Tryhard, well...
One of my absolute favorites in the "Characters Yurei Never Gets to Play" folder is Memory, a tiefling warlock of the Archfey Pact. Memory was originally assembled before my group moved away from 4d6kh, and her rolls were as follows: 17, 9, 4, 14, 13, 13, for a total value of 70 points and allocated as follows: 4 | 14 | 13 | 9 | 13 | 17. Shuddit Sposta, "roll six numbers and rearrange as desired" was the chargen rules of the table at the time :P Anyways. I was - and remain - perfectly fine with that array. To the point where even when the DM said "Look, just reroll something and fix that, okay?", I told him it was unnecessary. Each element of the array had its place, and contributed to the tale I built for her.
4 Strength: Memory took a grievous, nearly fatal arrow wound in her escape from the Feywild. The wound is 'healed', but like many old war wounds it still pains her. Memory cannot exert, or withstand, much physical force at all without that old wound flaring up and paining her, 9 (10) Intelligence: Memory was stolen from the Prime Material plane nearly two hundred years ago. Her knowledge of the mortal realms is rusty, to say the least. She's not stupid by any stretch, but she was a street urchin before disappearing for two centuries - academic knowledge is not her strength. 17(19) Charisma: Memory was kept as a performing pet by an archfey for (Indeterminate Feywildy timey-wimey period of time here). She was expected to be beautiful, decorative, and expert in her performances or she would be punished. Only when an entirely different archfey busted her loose did Memory realize the same discipline and self-mastery needed for these things could be turned to mastering fey magics.
Frankly, even in later versions of the character, this rolled array influenced her build. Memory's lowest score is always Strength, and it's because she took that vicious wound during her escape. She always has Performance proficiency and at least one instrument despite those being useless for her, and she doesn't get knowledge proficiencies outside Investigation. She is often but not always accompanied by Hubert North, a mastiff she obtained during her travels to serve as a packhound, a camp guard, and a travel buddy, due to her injuries making it difficult for her to carry heavy loads for any length of time - and yes, I strictly observe encumbrance on Memory despite the DMs at our table generally not caring about it. Were I ever to play her for real, I would ask the DM to impose disadvantage on any Strength checks or save Memory makes randomly, as he pleases/desires, to better account for her injury flaring up.
Memory's sub-72, (Slightly) Worse Than Standard Array rolled numbers work for me because I really enjoy peaks-and-valleys characters that have a powerful strength partially offset by a dire weakness. '6' is my favorite stat number in D&D, and rolled 4d6kh arrays with all six numbers between 12 and 15 are the most boring things in the world to me. Even in Standard Array games, I'm always tempted to make an offer to the DM - "Let me have a 16 instead of the 15 and I'll take a 6 instead of the 8. Drop a point overall and really deep-six (hueh) that weak score - and no, it won't necessarily be in Strength."
Our current chargen method doesn't allow for this, but I believe I will argue to make Memory an exception if I ever play her. And not because of that one 17, either. I'm perfectly willing to punch that down to a 16 and just roll with a 69-point array (nice). There are even worlds where a DM could convince me to swap the 17 and the 14, though that would involve questions on why and whether other players were being forced to actively tank their primary stat. But if a DM had good answers for me and was truly insistent that no one start with a number higher than 17 in anything, I could roll with it.
Regardless. "Proof" that not all stat-rolling is for powergaming munchkin bullshit. As much so, anyways, as the original Facebook transplant is "proof" of the opposite.
WARNING: Personal Anecdote Incoming. Spoiler'd Because Reasons Mostly throwing this up here because if the whole dang thread can start with one player's secondhand account of stat rolling filtered through a Facebook group, some direct experience would be admissible as well. And since people just looove to label me an Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Metagaming Tryhard, well...
One of my absolute favorites in the "Characters Yurei Never Gets to Play" folder is Memory, a tiefling warlock of the Archfey Pact. Memory was originally assembled before my group moved away from 4d6kh, and her rolls were as follows: 17, 9, 4, 14, 13, 13, for a total value of 70 points and allocated as follows: 4 | 14 | 13 | 9 | 13 | 17. Shuddit Sposta, "roll six numbers and rearrange as desired" was the chargen rules of the table at the time :P Anyways. I was - and remain - perfectly fine with that array. To the point where even when the DM said "Look, just reroll something and fix that, okay?", I told him it was unnecessary. Each element of the array had its place, and contributed to the tale I built for her.
4 Strength: Memory took a grievous, nearly fatal arrow wound in her escape from the Feywild. The wound is 'healed', but like many old war wounds it still pains her. Memory cannot exert, or withstand, much physical force at all without that old wound flaring up and paining her, 9 (10) Intelligence: Memory was stolen from the Prime Material plane nearly two hundred years ago. Her knowledge of the mortal realms is rusty, to say the least. She's not stupid by any stretch, but she was a street urchin before disappearing for two centuries - academic knowledge is not her strength. 17(19) Charisma: Memory was kept as a performing pet by an archfey for (Indeterminate Feywildy timey-wimey period of time here). She was expected to be beautiful, decorative, and expert in her performances or she would be punished. Only when an entirely different archfey busted her loose did Memory realize the same discipline and self-mastery needed for these things could be turned to mastering fey magics.
Frankly, even in later versions of the character, this rolled array influenced her build. Memory's lowest score is always Strength, and it's because she took that vicious wound during her escape. She always has Performance proficiency and at least one instrument despite those being useless for her, and she doesn't get knowledge proficiencies outside Investigation. She is often but not always accompanied by Hubert North, a mastiff she obtained during her travels to serve as a packhound, a camp guard, and a travel buddy, due to her injuries making it difficult for her to carry heavy loads for any length of time - and yes, I strictly observe encumbrance on Memory despite the DMs at our table generally not caring about it. Were I ever to play her for real, I would ask the DM to impose disadvantage on any Strength checks or save Memory makes randomly, as he pleases/desires, to better account for her injury flaring up.
Memory's sub-72, (Slightly) Worse Than Standard Array rolled numbers work for me because I really enjoy peaks-and-valleys characters that have a powerful strength partially offset by a dire weakness. '6' is my favorite stat number in D&D, and rolled 4d6kh arrays with all six numbers between 12 and 15 are the most boring things in the world to me. Even in Standard Array games, I'm always tempted to make an offer to the DM - "Let me have a 16 instead of the 15 and I'll take a 6 instead of the 8. Drop a point overall and really deep-six (hueh) that weak score - and no, it won't necessarily be in Strength."
Our current chargen method doesn't allow for this, but I believe I will argue to make Memory an exception if I ever play her. And not because of that one 17, either. I'm perfectly willing to punch that down to a 16 and just roll with a 69-point array (nice). There are even worlds where a DM could convince me to swap the 17 and the 14, though that would involve questions on why and whether other players were being forced to actively tank their primary stat. But if a DM had good answers for me and was truly insistent that no one start with a number higher than 17 in anything, I could roll with it.
Regardless. "Proof" that not all stat-rolling is for powergaming munchkin bullshit. As much so, anyways, as the original Facebook transplant is "proof" of the opposite.
Yuriel, I am not going to go digging through 5 or 8 pages of posts. But in this very thread, you described that others who play with you consider you a prima donna, and you want your char able to do everything. The words "prima donna" were not used by you, but "spot-light hogging" was, which is pretty much the definition. So words about variation and RP ring a little hollow now.
Now, the 4 in Str makes for an interesting RP option, but is not earth-shattering. I don't allow my Str 8 Halfling to carry around 10 pounds of Cooking Utensils, though it is a perfect fit for a Hobbit. And you STILL have a natural 17, which gives your Warlock a 19 to start, when the best the Standard Array or 27 point buy plus species specific abilities gives is a 17 to start. Your starting array for your Warlock is still a Power-Gamer's set up, as you put your 4 in a total dump stat for a Warlock.
Heh. Actually Sposta, there's a problem I've had for ages that "Trust your DM" is exactly the wrong answer for.
I love omnicompetent characters. Not "Oh I have a 95-point stat array I can do anything" characters, those are obnoxious, but characters like artificers, Lore bards, Arcane Trickster rogues, or others with a huge and diverse pool of options and solutions available to them. I'm at my happiest when I have 8+ skill proficiencies, at least two Expertise points, access to 6+ cantrips, worthwhile combat options, and enough tools both magical and mundane to accomplish what I need accomplished.
DMs hate that shit. They tell me I'm being a spotlight-hogging *******, or that I'm not leaving room for anybody else to shine, or that I don't/won't/can't trust my fellow players to do their share, or that I don't trust the DM not to hose me. None of that is true. I just really love the Ace character archetype, the adventurer who can do at least a little of everything, and have a strong preference for a larger pool of at-will abilities than a smaller pool of stronger but limited-use abilities. I don't want to cast "Solve Problem" at eighth level, I want to use a combination of skill, smarts, proper gear selection, and low-level magic to Solve the Problem in a particularly clever or impressive way. It's just how I like to play.
But no DM outside my gaming group is ever going to let me be that character, because they don't trust me to use that character for the Greater Good and the betterment of the game. They refuse to hear "Trust me, I know what I'm doing, I won't wreck your game" and insist I Be a Team Player(C) and restrict myself to a narrowly-focused expert who has nothing to contribute to the game outside her specific field of interest, because that's what a DM is expecting and prepared to handle.
It's similar to all the horror stories certain DMs like to tell about how their player who rolled super-good stats is totally going to Ruin Their Game Forever(C) because now the Horrible Optimizer Munchkin Dood has the ammo he needs to wreck games. No DM ever seems willing to trust their players in turn and accept that the optimizer with too-big numbers can restrain themselves, or that the jack-of-all-trades skillmonkey can step back and let other players exploit their own specialties. Many DMs say "trust me, it'll be fine" when a player or group of players does something less than optimal, but that DM then flips schittes when the players opt to make exceptionally competent characters instead. Or roll an obnoxiously high stat array that puts them in a position to dominate their table, if they're a bad player.
Trust has to go both ways, and it does not eliminate the need for conversation or understanding.
Note the key phrase there: "DMs hate that shit. They tell me I'm being a spotlight-hogging *******..." Other DMs say this. Not my fellow players, and not my DMs in specific. DMs on this forum tell me, in theads I post in rather than games I play in, that they hate skillmonkeys and consider them to be spotlight-thieving jackholes who wreck games. In point of fact, one of our two non-me DM-type people shares my love of omnicompetent skillmonkey characters and is similarly reticent to use them. We both fight like cats over the chance to play an Arcane Trickster, on the exceedingly rare occasions (in fact, exactly once so far) when it comes up.
Personally? I'm of the opinion that limited, sharply delineated roles in an adventuring party is a fantastic way to ensure your party sucks at adventuring. IF every character in that party can do one thing and one thing only, and those things are sharply divided between your various PCs, what you have is an extremely fragile recipe for disaster. If even a single member of the party goes down, the party is left with gaping, unpluggable holes in their capabilities. Hell, if even a single member of the team is even just out of position for some reason, the team cracks and crumbles.
My ideal party composition is one where everybody is a skillmonkey, everybody can heal, everybody can handle themselves in both melee combat and ranged battles, and so forth. A wolfpack of self-reliant, competent heroes that can reinforce each other ad-hoc as needed, responding to situations fluidly with whoever's on the spot. I find that such a configuration makes for a much more dynamic party in all situations, since everybody is contributing to each scene, and furthermore it actually creates real teamwork. "Teamwork" is not "we all stand around while the one guy who knows what he's doing does the thing". Teamwork is "this is our best guy for this thing so he'll take the lead, but the rest of us know enough to help him out or do some supporting work that makes it easier for him to do his thing."
An Adventurer should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, helm a ship, design a keep, write a saga, balance their purse, build a palisade wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, execute orders, give orders, cooperate, act solo, cast a spell, analyze a problem, solve the problem, pitch manure, counter a spell, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die heroically over a mountain of their dead enemies. Specialization is for NPCs.
All I'm going to say is that one does not generalize a entire group of people purely based off a single facebook post that easily.
This entire forum is a terrible idea, you're trying to generalize almost all of D&D by calling them "powergamers". Even the thread title is talking smack against people who use 4d6.
Clearly your mind has been beyond set. All the criticism to your post have been stated.
1. People will naturally put the best scores in the best stats. Regardless of what array your doing.
2. There are people who really do just enjoy playing characters randomized since it makes it feel more "real" to them.
3. Your evidence is... that the average score of a 4d6 drop lowest is slightly higher than Point Buy? True all the homebrew rules do exist to ensure stats are always good, but then you have to consider that if people are doing enough HB that it turns out to be a illusion of randomness rather than actual benefit, maybe that's cause they aren't powergamers and just like the thought that is randomized
4. Some of the quotes you pulled up in the OP aren't even about getting better stats or about destroying the game like you say in the OP
"Make a deal with your DM talk to them about that you'll try it but if it's not fun you want to reroll it." - Just talk to your DM is good advice in any situation and has nothing to do with destroying the game, note that the reroll part is only if it turns out to not be fun (in case the Original Original Poster/their group was into powergaming, which is a perfectly fine way to play a game lol) not for better stats.
"4 in charisma and say your character is a huge jerk. Make racial slurs at everyone and get into bar fights." This is... I admit a little more destruction, at least this person accepts a more bad array and is willing to play around it. Although this one takes some more stretching.
Everyone else though, yeah your looking at a powergaming forum what did you expect lol? The D&D Beyond forums tend to be a bit more diverse though, so the same generalizes don't apply. Even in said powergaming forum, looking above yeah you can't even generalize the powergaming forum as powergamers. Those who are powergamers, well they're honest about it lol and that's what matters.
Rarely does better stats help anyone lol, as I DM I just have people reroll if their stats are abnormally below/above the average. In my current campaign everyone rolled a average of +2 (rounded) in their highest stat (1 of them rolled a 16, nobody rolled higher), and i didn't force any rerolls because everyone was equal, and I can balance around that.
Edit: They were all okay with that, they accepted the risks of rolling and it hasn't made much of a difference so far. They all enjoyed the idea of leaving their characters up to fate, and we have that variety of stats arrays which help make the characters more unique (in their mind anyways, mechanically not much of a difference but I'm not telling them that).
Yeah ik +2 is the highest you can get via stat array which makes this probably not the best example, but still shows some people really are fine with low rolls. Lol we all did roll super close to the stat array- most of the party rolled slightly below the basic array in terms of points. Also the second 16 was a 14 + 2 oops.
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
You mention last year as it was a long time ago, well that's how I perceive it. I think perhaps a factor here is for how long people are stuck with their characters. I'm tied to the same character, and only that character, on time scales of 5 years per campaign. Perhaps that changes the perception of what people are willing to bend to when it comes to stats.
WARNING: Personal Anecdote Incoming. Spoiler'd Because Reasons Mostly throwing this up here because if the whole dang thread can start with one player's secondhand account of stat rolling filtered through a Facebook group, some direct experience would be admissible as well. And since people just looove to label me an Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Metagaming Tryhard, well...
One of my absolute favorites in the "Characters Yurei Never Gets to Play" folder is Memory, a tiefling warlock of the Archfey Pact. Memory was originally assembled before my group moved away from 4d6kh, and her rolls were as follows: 17, 9, 4, 14, 13, 13, for a total value of 70 points and allocated as follows: 4 | 14 | 13 | 9 | 13 | 17. Shuddit Sposta, "roll six numbers and rearrange as desired" was the chargen rules of the table at the time :P Anyways. I was - and remain - perfectly fine with that array. To the point where even when the DM said "Look, just reroll something and fix that, okay?", I told him it was unnecessary. Each element of the array had its place, and contributed to the tale I built for her.
4 Strength: Memory took a grievous, nearly fatal arrow wound in her escape from the Feywild. The wound is 'healed', but like many old war wounds it still pains her. Memory cannot exert, or withstand, much physical force at all without that old wound flaring up and paining her, 9 (10) Intelligence: Memory was stolen from the Prime Material plane nearly two hundred years ago. Her knowledge of the mortal realms is rusty, to say the least. She's not stupid by any stretch, but she was a street urchin before disappearing for two centuries - academic knowledge is not her strength. 17(19) Charisma: Memory was kept as a performing pet by an archfey for (Indeterminate Feywildy timey-wimey period of time here). She was expected to be beautiful, decorative, and expert in her performances or she would be punished. Only when an entirely different archfey busted her loose did Memory realize the same discipline and self-mastery needed for these things could be turned to mastering fey magics.
Frankly, even in later versions of the character, this rolled array influenced her build. Memory's lowest score is always Strength, and it's because she took that vicious wound during her escape. She always has Performance proficiency and at least one instrument despite those being useless for her, and she doesn't get knowledge proficiencies outside Investigation. She is often but not always accompanied by Hubert North, a mastiff she obtained during her travels to serve as a packhound, a camp guard, and a travel buddy, due to her injuries making it difficult for her to carry heavy loads for any length of time - and yes, I strictly observe encumbrance on Memory despite the DMs at our table generally not caring about it. Were I ever to play her for real, I would ask the DM to impose disadvantage on any Strength checks or save Memory makes randomly, as he pleases/desires, to better account for her injury flaring up.
Memory's sub-72, (Slightly) Worse Than Standard Array rolled numbers work for me because I really enjoy peaks-and-valleys characters that have a powerful strength partially offset by a dire weakness. '6' is my favorite stat number in D&D, and rolled 4d6kh arrays with all six numbers between 12 and 15 are the most boring things in the world to me. Even in Standard Array games, I'm always tempted to make an offer to the DM - "Let me have a 16 instead of the 15 and I'll take a 6 instead of the 8. Drop a point overall and really deep-six (hueh) that weak score - and no, it won't necessarily be in Strength."
Our current chargen method doesn't allow for this, but I believe I will argue to make Memory an exception if I ever play her. And not because of that one 17, either. I'm perfectly willing to punch that down to a 16 and just roll with a 69-point array (nice). There are even worlds where a DM could convince me to swap the 17 and the 14, though that would involve questions on why and whether other players were being forced to actively tank their primary stat. But if a DM had good answers for me and was truly insistent that no one start with a number higher than 17 in anything, I could roll with it.
Regardless. "Proof" that not all stat-rolling is for powergaming munchkin bullshit. As much so, anyways, as the original Facebook transplant is "proof" of the opposite.
Yuriel, I am not going to go digging through 5 or 8 pages of posts. But in this very thread, you described that others who play with you consider you a prima donna, and you want your char able to do everything. The words "prima donna" were not used by you, but "spot-light hogging" was, which is pretty much the definition. So words about variation and RP ring a little hollow now.
Now, the 4 in Str makes for an interesting RP option, but is not earth-shattering. I don't allow my Str 8 Halfling to carry around 10 pounds of Cooking Utensils, though it is a perfect fit for a Hobbit. And you STILL have a natural 17, which gives your Warlock a 19 to start, when the best the Standard Array or 27 point buy plus species specific abilities gives is a 17 to start. Your starting array for your Warlock is still a Power-Gamer's set up, as you put your 4 in a total dump stat for a Warlock.
Even so there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a power gamer. And being a power gamer doesn't exclude being a roleplayer. Your way of playing the game isn't the only way, and your way of playing the game is not more correct than the other ways of playing it either.
One of my absolute favorites in the "Characters Yurei Never Gets to Play" folder...
... Regardless. "Proof" that not all stat-rolling is for powergaming munchkin bullshit. As much so, anyways, as the original Facebook transplant is "proof" of the opposite....
... and again, "proof" from a character that is not ever going to see play. If you want to convince us, please show us a character that is not optimised and randomly generated that you have actually played and for more than a one--shot. Otherwise, it's just wishful thinking and proves nothing apart from the fact that when you DO play, it's probably a very optimised character and not randomly rolled.
And in any case, that character had a 17, not a bad thing to start play with for a Warlock, whatever the other stats...
I plugged that stat block of Yuriel's "handicapped, strictly designed for role-play" into a 27 point buy calculator, with a max of 17 allowed instead of 15, allows a minimum of 4, and uses the values in the 2nd chart on page 13 of the PHB.
Lo and behold, Yuriel's horribly handicapped, designed strictly for RP char uses EXACTLY 27 points. Like I said, it is a power-gamer's stat block, designed to circumvent the rules by increasing the initial maximum for the primary stat by allowing the dump stat be much weaker.
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
You mention last year as it was a long time ago, well that's how I perceive it. I think perhaps a factor here is for how long people are stuck with their characters. I'm tied to the same character, and only that character, on time scales of 5 years per campaign. Perhaps that changes the perception of what people are willing to bend to when it comes to stats.
That campaign lasted about a year and a half and only ended because the DM moved cross country for a job. I have played a character for as long as 7 years, though that was in 2nd edition. Most of our campaigns seem to last about 2 years or less these days. Stats have never been a factor in my enjoyment of a character. I enjoy the story and the RP, which isn't reliant upon stats at all in my experience. A fun game only requires a good DM and a good group of players.
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as 5th edition came out I was if your rolling your stats it is done at the table with other players and myself present, if you want to create a PC away from the game table you can use Standard array or Point buy, as I have seen to many players that have incredible luck rolling stats alone.
I genuinely want to play that character so much XD
I Cancelled my Master Tier Subscription January 12th 2023 because of "OGL" 1.1 - Resubscribed 28th of Jan, now the SRD is in CC-BY-4.0
Eh, int doesn't matter that much to damage casters. For someone with a Dex save of +2, a save DC of 10 (save half) is only 10% less damage than a save DC of 13 (10 vs 16), whereas against AC 14, +2/1d8 is 50% less damage than +5/1d8+3.
I saw the same post the OP referenced.
There were definately people who posted that the stats were unworkable (after all there was a 4, and it was in an optimization group).
However, there were also plenty of others who suggested the poster play specific race and class combinations. I can't seem to find the post to share more specific examples but one that really stood out for me was the suggestion that he play a Half-Elf Hexblade Warlock with the 4 in strength representing a birth defect or damage from a brush with disease as a child. This debilitating issue could be the characters motivation for the pact. The 9s went to Int and Wis. 11 went to Con (+1 from race makes it 12), 13 went to Dex (+1 from race made it 14) and 14 went to CHA (+2 from race made it 16).
There were similar solutions for Sorcerer. Gnome Wizard, Wizard, and Dwarf Paladin just to name a few. I don't recall many V human or new lineage suggestions on this one which was unusual for that group..
Gideon Hawke
Just a Valor Bard trying to find his way through D&D after a 20+ year "break". Enjoying being back and sharing with my RL family.
I get where the OP is coming from but it was put in a pretty hostile method to start which sets a tone.
I dont mind 4d6 drop the lowest and plug em where you want, I dont mind standard array (probably my favorite) and dont mind points buy either. BUT what I do find fairly.. I guess funny.. or perhaps hypocritical is when people defend 4d6 by saying stuff like it prevents characters from being the same, and it prevents power gaming.
It doesn't stop samness because your plugging those stats into the same scores anyway, its just a matter to what degree are they different than say standard array. and it doesn't stop power gaming either because I can't remember the last time I saw someone roll their 4d6 and that was the end of it. It's always ooh. let me reroll, or drop that sub 8 or if your score doesn't total something reroll or roll 3 arrays pick the best.
There's always some POWER GAMER caveat to 4d6, and as OP stated using 4d6 is really just about getting those sweet sweet 18s, its not about diversity of build you can do that with either SA or PB, its not about "the gamble" as everyones got rules to mitigate the gamble, its just about getting those max stats at lvl 1. AND if they are just made to accept it what happens? LEEEEEROOOOY JEEENKINS!!! The lvl 1 wizard with a death wish or the character that purposely smooth talks his way into getting the guards or bar patrons to attack to die in a brawl. or the classic get into 1 fight "oh man.. I I think Ill go back to farming"
I won't lie when we do 4d6 the only thing im thining while rolling is I want my primary stat to be 18 and hope my secondary can be around 16. I'm not rolling going 'man I hope I can play a fighter with a 5 in my dump stat!"
6 is a lot of damage at level 1.
And so of course the way you do it and the way you perceive it is the only reality. The rest of us who keep saying that we don’t do it that way or for those reasons are, what, lying?
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I have to assume that your group does not care about encumbrance?
With a 4 strength, you can only carry 60 pounds. That makes it extremely hard to wear any sort of armor and carry around any equipment.
That really wouldn't be that much of an issue for a Wizard and I don't know many groups where the party would be unwilling to help out.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Personally I would have gone Human Wizard.
Str 5, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 10
Not bad at all at level 1, looks a lot like a Wizard I was playing just last year actually. Would likely bump Int at level 4 then maybe a Half Feat at 8. I would likely have taken a Half Feat at level 1 because everyone gets a Feat at level 1 in our groups, but that doesn't matter here.
Not sure which School though, probably Transmutation or Divination.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Taking the ASI at 4th and the Feat at 8th makes no sense. You only benefit from half the ASI anyway until the half-feat. May as well take the half-feat first for the double benefit and then the ASI at 8th.
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Probably would as that does make the most sense. It is fairly cliché, but still a viable character and one I would be excited to play.
I would likely take Shadow Touched.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
WARNING: Personal Anecdote Incoming. Spoiler'd Because Reasons
Mostly throwing this up here because if the whole dang thread can start with one player's secondhand account of stat rolling filtered through a Facebook group, some direct experience would be admissible as well. And since people just looove to label me an Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Metagaming Tryhard, well...
One of my absolute favorites in the "Characters Yurei Never Gets to Play" folder is Memory, a tiefling warlock of the Archfey Pact. Memory was originally assembled before my group moved away from 4d6kh, and her rolls were as follows: 17, 9, 4, 14, 13, 13, for a total value of 70 points and allocated as follows: 4 | 14 | 13 | 9 | 13 | 17. Shuddit Sposta, "roll six numbers and rearrange as desired" was the chargen rules of the table at the time :P Anyways. I was - and remain - perfectly fine with that array. To the point where even when the DM said "Look, just reroll something and fix that, okay?", I told him it was unnecessary. Each element of the array had its place, and contributed to the tale I built for her.
4 Strength: Memory took a grievous, nearly fatal arrow wound in her escape from the Feywild. The wound is 'healed', but like many old war wounds it still pains her. Memory cannot exert, or withstand, much physical force at all without that old wound flaring up and paining her,
9 (10) Intelligence: Memory was stolen from the Prime Material plane nearly two hundred years ago. Her knowledge of the mortal realms is rusty, to say the least. She's not stupid by any stretch, but she was a street urchin before disappearing for two centuries - academic knowledge is not her strength.
17(19) Charisma: Memory was kept as a performing pet by an archfey for (Indeterminate Feywildy timey-wimey period of time here). She was expected to be beautiful, decorative, and expert in her performances or she would be punished. Only when an entirely different archfey busted her loose did Memory realize the same discipline and self-mastery needed for these things could be turned to mastering fey magics.
Frankly, even in later versions of the character, this rolled array influenced her build. Memory's lowest score is always Strength, and it's because she took that vicious wound during her escape. She always has Performance proficiency and at least one instrument despite those being useless for her, and she doesn't get knowledge proficiencies outside Investigation. She is often but not always accompanied by Hubert North, a mastiff she obtained during her travels to serve as a packhound, a camp guard, and a travel buddy, due to her injuries making it difficult for her to carry heavy loads for any length of time - and yes, I strictly observe encumbrance on Memory despite the DMs at our table generally not caring about it. Were I ever to play her for real, I would ask the DM to impose disadvantage on any Strength checks or save Memory makes randomly, as he pleases/desires, to better account for her injury flaring up.
Memory's sub-72, (Slightly) Worse Than Standard Array rolled numbers work for me because I really enjoy peaks-and-valleys characters that have a powerful strength partially offset by a dire weakness. '6' is my favorite stat number in D&D, and rolled 4d6kh arrays with all six numbers between 12 and 15 are the most boring things in the world to me. Even in Standard Array games, I'm always tempted to make an offer to the DM - "Let me have a 16 instead of the 15 and I'll take a 6 instead of the 8. Drop a point overall and really deep-six (hueh) that weak score - and no, it won't necessarily be in Strength."
Our current chargen method doesn't allow for this, but I believe I will argue to make Memory an exception if I ever play her. And not because of that one 17, either. I'm perfectly willing to punch that down to a 16 and just roll with a 69-point array (nice). There are even worlds where a DM could convince me to swap the 17 and the 14, though that would involve questions on why and whether other players were being forced to actively tank their primary stat. But if a DM had good answers for me and was truly insistent that no one start with a number higher than 17 in anything, I could roll with it.
Regardless. "Proof" that not all stat-rolling is for powergaming munchkin bullshit. As much so, anyways, as the original Facebook transplant is "proof" of the opposite.
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Yuriel, I am not going to go digging through 5 or 8 pages of posts. But in this very thread, you described that others who play with you consider you a prima donna, and you want your char able to do everything. The words "prima donna" were not used by you, but "spot-light hogging" was, which is pretty much the definition. So words about variation and RP ring a little hollow now.
Now, the 4 in Str makes for an interesting RP option, but is not earth-shattering. I don't allow my Str 8 Halfling to carry around 10 pounds of Cooking Utensils, though it is a perfect fit for a Hobbit. And you STILL have a natural 17, which gives your Warlock a 19 to start, when the best the Standard Array or 27 point buy plus species specific abilities gives is a 17 to start. Your starting array for your Warlock is still a Power-Gamer's set up, as you put your 4 in a total dump stat for a Warlock.
Here. Allow me to do it for you, so you can stop misrepresenting my words.
(Quote spoiler'd to preserve page space)
Note the key phrase there: "DMs hate that shit. They tell me I'm being a spotlight-hogging *******..." Other DMs say this. Not my fellow players, and not my DMs in specific. DMs on this forum tell me, in theads I post in rather than games I play in, that they hate skillmonkeys and consider them to be spotlight-thieving jackholes who wreck games. In point of fact, one of our two non-me DM-type people shares my love of omnicompetent skillmonkey characters and is similarly reticent to use them. We both fight like cats over the chance to play an Arcane Trickster, on the exceedingly rare occasions (in fact, exactly once so far) when it comes up.
Personally? I'm of the opinion that limited, sharply delineated roles in an adventuring party is a fantastic way to ensure your party sucks at adventuring. IF every character in that party can do one thing and one thing only, and those things are sharply divided between your various PCs, what you have is an extremely fragile recipe for disaster. If even a single member of the party goes down, the party is left with gaping, unpluggable holes in their capabilities. Hell, if even a single member of the team is even just out of position for some reason, the team cracks and crumbles.
My ideal party composition is one where everybody is a skillmonkey, everybody can heal, everybody can handle themselves in both melee combat and ranged battles, and so forth. A wolfpack of self-reliant, competent heroes that can reinforce each other ad-hoc as needed, responding to situations fluidly with whoever's on the spot. I find that such a configuration makes for a much more dynamic party in all situations, since everybody is contributing to each scene, and furthermore it actually creates real teamwork. "Teamwork" is not "we all stand around while the one guy who knows what he's doing does the thing". Teamwork is "this is our best guy for this thing so he'll take the lead, but the rest of us know enough to help him out or do some supporting work that makes it easier for him to do his thing."
An Adventurer should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, helm a ship, design a keep, write a saga, balance their purse, build a palisade wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, execute orders, give orders, cooperate, act solo, cast a spell, analyze a problem, solve the problem, pitch manure, counter a spell, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die heroically over a mountain of their dead enemies. Specialization is for NPCs.
Please do not contact or message me.
All I'm going to say is that one does not generalize a entire group of people purely based off a single facebook post that easily.
This entire forum is a terrible idea, you're trying to generalize almost all of D&D by calling them "powergamers". Even the thread title is talking smack against people who use 4d6.
Clearly your mind has been beyond set. All the criticism to your post have been stated.
1. People will naturally put the best scores in the best stats. Regardless of what array your doing.
2. There are people who really do just enjoy playing characters randomized since it makes it feel more "real" to them.
3. Your evidence is... that the average score of a 4d6 drop lowest is slightly higher than Point Buy? True all the homebrew rules do exist to ensure stats are always good, but then you have to consider that if people are doing enough HB that it turns out to be a illusion of randomness rather than actual benefit, maybe that's cause they aren't powergamers and just like the thought that is randomized
4. Some of the quotes you pulled up in the OP aren't even about getting better stats or about destroying the game like you say in the OP
"Make a deal with your DM talk to them about that you'll try it but if it's not fun you want to reroll it." - Just talk to your DM is good advice in any situation and has nothing to do with destroying the game, note that the reroll part is only if it turns out to not be fun (in case the Original Original Poster/their group was into powergaming, which is a perfectly fine way to play a game lol) not for better stats.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
You mention last year as it was a long time ago, well that's how I perceive it. I think perhaps a factor here is for how long people are stuck with their characters. I'm tied to the same character, and only that character, on time scales of 5 years per campaign. Perhaps that changes the perception of what people are willing to bend to when it comes to stats.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Even so there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a power gamer. And being a power gamer doesn't exclude being a roleplayer. Your way of playing the game isn't the only way, and your way of playing the game is not more correct than the other ways of playing it either.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I plugged that stat block of Yuriel's "handicapped, strictly designed for role-play" into a 27 point buy calculator, with a max of 17 allowed instead of 15, allows a minimum of 4, and uses the values in the 2nd chart on page 13 of the PHB.
Lo and behold, Yuriel's horribly handicapped, designed strictly for RP char uses EXACTLY 27 points. Like I said, it is a power-gamer's stat block, designed to circumvent the rules by increasing the initial maximum for the primary stat by allowing the dump stat be much weaker.
That campaign lasted about a year and a half and only ended because the DM moved cross country for a job. I have played a character for as long as 7 years, though that was in 2nd edition. Most of our campaigns seem to last about 2 years or less these days. Stats have never been a factor in my enjoyment of a character. I enjoy the story and the RP, which isn't reliant upon stats at all in my experience. A fun game only requires a good DM and a good group of players.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master