2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
yup...and he could not be more wrong, as that flawed logic ignores the relative values what is taken...and what is given have to each other. without that information taking into his reasoning, the statement just cannot be valid. As previously stated, oh you taking my toy and leaving me crap formatted examples.
I dunno if I'd rather have nothing... I have no intention of using the new content but I think "Your sheets will no longer be supported. Bye!" would have been MUCH worse.
But I've gotta admit regardless of what the cause of this issue is WotC's recent history over the last three years makes stuff like this just feel slimy. Whether or not it's intentional it certainly feels like we're being told "You don't want that product, you want THIS product." which certainly could have been avoided.
Exactly. It's not that we don't want the new stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with buying all the new stuff.
The issue has always been that D&D Beyond is actively stealing from their userbase with this change.
There's no valid argument against the statement that they are. They sold us tool access with the books and they're actively revoking it, full stop. It doesn't matter what they give us, they're stealing what we bought from us.
We could go back and forth for days on this and we'd both be right because, yes, they're taking something you bought but, no they're actually just updating something you bought. Apple does it all the time. It's in the Terms of Service, etc. ad infinitum.
But all I was saying is that the guy that pointed out the fact that having something is better than having nothing, that's all he pointed out. Everyone keeps harping on him because they don't consider the update to be better than the 2014 rules, but he never ascribed value to either set of rules, he only said that 1 > 0.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Granted, it's not a large number (as in I've only seen one person say as much), but there was a comment saying they'd rather have nothing than a subpar replacement.
I didn't think that they had actually given a definite answer on whether you would be able to add 2014 content to character sheets, just that all character sheets will default to the new 2024 content. They were being vague and skirting around the issue with the new clarification (backtrack) announcement by saying 2014 content will still be available but not mentioning at all if you can add it to character sheets. Maybe I missed something but that's what I had read.
I also think that it is crazy that in the character creation home page it will not be possible to toggle OFF the new 2024 rules. What if we want to play completely without them? We just aren't allowed to do that anymore?
This is just another OGL fiasco all over again where they make these terrible changes to things that the community absolutely despises and makes no sense to do in the first place and then they go into damage control mode and start rolling stuff back.
Let's hope they roll it back enough because I've already told the players in my games to make backups of their DnDbeyond character sheets on other platforms or at least take screenshots so they can be remade somewhere else, and I have probably at least 30 I have to backup myself because I use character sheets for a lot of NPCs in my homebrew world, and also have a handful of PCs on here as well.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
When that replacement is objectively the ONLY reason we're losing what we wanted in the first place... No. No, it's not.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
I'd argue that it's not better if you had no interest in the replacement.
I don't like Coke, I think it tastes flat, I prefer Pepsi. If I buy a 12-pack of Pepsi and open the box to find Coke I'm not going to be happy about it and I'm going to complain. If the store then says 'Yeah we're not offering Pepsi anymore, all the cans in the Pepsi boxes will be Coke from now on, but you can still buy the boxes' that's not better, that's actively worse than just telling me the thing I wanted and bought isn't being offered anymore.
Yes, he's also acknowledged multiple times that he understands that some people have decided they'd rather have nothing at all rather than the replacement. I'm not sure why everyone keeps harping on the guy.
Literally did not say I wanted nothing, I want the content I paid for. What I said was that giving me a replacement that I did not ask for, and do not want, is not better than the thing I actually paid for.
An open and honest admission six months ago that these changes were happening with an offer to refund the difference between the toolkit and compendium prices would have been better.
A toggle between the 2014/2024 version would have been better.
Just not forcing updates to players who hadn't purchased the 2024 books would have been better.
And people keep harping on it because he's trying to have completely different conversation than the rest of us, we all know his position that getting the replacement in his eyes is better than losing the spells entirely, we're not talking about that. We're talking about losing accessibility to the content we paid for.
yup...and he could not be more wrong, as that flawed logic ignores the relative values what is taken...and what is given have to each other. without that information taking into his reasoning, the statement just cannot be valid. As previously stated, oh you taking my toy and leaving me crap formatted examples.
I did not ignore value at all and have acknowledged individual value held by others many times. What my post you chose to argue against was addressing, was the misunderstanding that people would lost access to the 2014 spells and magic items in the toolset AND would have to pay for the new ones; losing something and getting nothing.
The changelog addresses that misunderstanding and I was addressing the person who stated that this was not better. It is better to get something rather than nothing (for most). If you would rather have nothing than something, you don't have to use the 2024 toolset, because that, apparently, is better for you.
Many other people had their concerned directly addressed by this changelog. Those people have even posted in this thread expressing relief.
Not everyone in this thread shares your anger. Their opinions and feelings are just as valid as yours are.
Not if we have no use or interest in the 2024 stuff. Then its just a downgrade.
Downgrade and 'better than nothing' are differences that are separated by an ocean.
correct, and what your claiming is...a downgrade is better than nothing, and its not. its the same as having nothing...as it becomes useless. we all know you see this, and are just trying to cover bad statements you made without thinking them all the way through.to
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
That is not what has happened, so the analogy, just like so many used before yours, has failed. It is more like they took your cool toy and replaced it with their updated version that is nearly identical in every way, but it doesn't have any chips in the paint. You liked those chips in the paint though, because it added character. Your feelings on the change are not being disputed, but rather, you entire understanding of what I had even been talking about.
That is EXACTLY what is happening. You keep touting they are giving us an upgrade and they arent. Its NOT nearly identical. That would be the 2014 rules with changes to the colors in the GUI. THAT"S "nearly" identical. Pulling the fuse on what we purchased and deserve continued access to....abd then giving us garbage we never intended to use....is in no sane way...better than nothing.
Everyone that says "no, it's not better" is essentially saying they'd rather have (nothing at all) than (not the content they paid for, but at the very least they get a replacement).
If you can't understand that, you're blinded by rage and unable to see the point they're trying to make.
If I'm trying to play a 2014 character in a 2014 game, having a 2024 character & sheet is no better than having no sheet. In both cases I cannot play.
His point is only relevant in a vague philosophical sense. Generally "something" is better than "nothing", but in this situation both give exactly the same result.
Unfortunately he's more interested in being right and bloviating at every mention of himself than actually posting anything relevant to the situation.
Exactly. It's not that we don't want the new stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with buying all the new stuff.
The issue has always been that D&D Beyond is actively stealing from their userbase with this change.
There's no valid argument against the statement that they are. They sold us tool access with the books and they're actively revoking it, full stop. It doesn't matter what they give us, they're stealing what we bought from us.
We could go back and forth for days on this and we'd both be right because, yes, they're taking something you bought but, no they're actually just updating something you bought. Apple does it all the time. It's in the Terms of Service, etc. ad infinitum.
But all I was saying is that the guy that pointed out the fact that having something is better than having nothing, that's all he pointed out. Everyone keeps harping on him because they don't consider the update to be better than the 2014 rules, but he never ascribed value to either set of rules, he only said that 1 > 0.
If you replace my car with a different car, and I'm justifiably upset that I no longer have my car, being the person to point out that I now have a different car is profoundly insensitive and unhelpful. I'm entitled to my feelings over having my car taken away from me, I'm not interested in some stranger pointing out that I was left with something else. It's my car, give it back.
Yes, it's technically in the TOS that they can do this. That's not helpful, either. In this digital age, we're stuck with lots of products that we don't technically "own", but that doesn't mean we don't expect the provider we "bought" it from to give us access to it. Steam can probably legally nuke my video game library, but you bet your ass that if they do, I'll be raging.
Exactly. It's not that we don't want the new stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with buying all the new stuff.
The issue has always been that D&D Beyond is actively stealing from their userbase with this change.
There's no valid argument against the statement that they are. They sold us tool access with the books and they're actively revoking it, full stop. It doesn't matter what they give us, they're stealing what we bought from us.
We could go back and forth for days on this and we'd both be right because, yes, they're taking something you bought but, no they're actually just updating something you bought. Apple does it all the time. It's in the Terms of Service, etc. ad infinitum.
But all I was saying is that the guy that pointed out the fact that having something is better than having nothing, that's all he pointed out. Everyone keeps harping on him because they don't consider the update to be better than the 2014 rules, but he never ascribed value to either set of rules, he only said that 1 > 0.
For the vast majority of people in the thread, that was always a strawman argument and completely useless to the conversation as a whole. There may be one or two in here saying that they'd rather have nothing, but the majority aren't covered at all by what he said.
I didn't think that they had actually given a definite answer on whether you would be able to add 2014 content to character sheets, just that all character sheets will default to the new 2024 content. They were being vague and skirting around the issue with the new clarification (backtrack) announcement by saying 2014 content will still be available but not mentioning at all if you can add it to character sheets. Maybe I missed something but that's what I had read.
I also think that it is crazy that in the character creation home page it will not be possible to toggle OFF the new 2024 rules. What if we want to play completely without them? We just aren't allowed to do that anymore?
This is just another OGL fiasco all over again where they make these terrible changes to things that the community absolutely despises and makes no sense to do in the first place and then they go into damage control mode and start rolling stuff back.
Let's hope they roll it back enough because I've already told the players in my games to make backups of their DnDbeyond character sheets on other platforms or at least take screenshots so they can be remade somewhere else, and I have probably at least 30 I have to backup myself because I use character sheets for a lot of NPCs in my homebrew world, and also have a handful of PCs on here as well.
You will 100% be able to make and play characters using the 2014 rules. The issue people are concerned about is that certain parts of the system are being updated to the new rules in such a way that it will affect those characters in the toolset, spells and equipment being the main issues, presumably because they're not segmented in the system the same way as other things that have been marked "Legacy" in the past (but that last bit is my educated guess).
So even though you have a 2014 character, the links in the tools will point to the current 2024 version of spells and equipment and the 2014 versions will only be accessible via the compendium content. That's the problem.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
And people keep harping on it because he's trying to have completely different conversation than the rest of us, we all know his position that getting the replacement in his eyes is better than losing the spells entirely, we're not talking about that. We're talking about losing accessibility to the content we paid for.
This is not correct. I am not trying to have a completely different conversation than the rest of you. I am refusing the conversation you are continually trying to drag me into. Don't tag me to talk about stuff that is not related to my post if it frustrates you that I do not engage in those separate conversations.
It is NOT better. What if we have an ongoing campaign using the 2014 rules and have no intention of switching to the new ones. Then all of a sudden all of the character sheets change to all of the new spells and class features and all the other garbage and we have to either manually switch them back, or worse, can't even add them back to the character sheet because they still haven't clarified if the 2014 content will be usable on character sheets, just that you will still be able to "access" it. This is intentionally vague probably because they are trying to slip it through proving that once again, they think we are a community of complete and utter basement dwelling morons that are just gonna take what they give us and be happy with it. Hasbro/WotC is one of the LEAST consumer friendly companies I have ever experienced, not to mention the fact that their executives outright make fun of their own games player base and constantly insults us. I would not be giving them any money at all ever again if not for the simple fact that beyond20 makes DMing my campaigns on Roll20 about 10000000x easier.
There are several here who have beaten you to this point and I was willing to cede ground here that there are some hardliner 2014 players who would prefer to not have access to the new versions of the spells, even if they would not be allowed to maintain access to the 2014 rules in the toolset. Some people would indeed rather have nothing than something and those people, I imagine, will delete their accounts.
I mean I wasn't gonna read a million replies so I obviously didn't see the people that beat me to it. My apologies.
I don't think it makes you a hardliner 2014 player in the slightest to have started a campaign with the 2014 rules, be 2-3 years into said campaign and not want to change to a new set of rules for the completion of that campaign? I actually think that most people in that situation will keep playing by the 2014 rules, maybe picking through the 2024 stuff and adding a few things they like piecemeal. That's what I intend to do anyways.
All I want is an option to keep all of my campaigns character sheets EXACTLY the same as they are now.
correct, and what your claiming is...a downgrade is better than nothing, and its not. its the same as having nothing...as it becomes useless. we all know you see this, and are just trying to cover bad statements you made without thinking them all the way through.to
That is EXACTLY what is happening. You keep touting they are giving us an upgrade and they arent. Its NOT nearly identical. That would be the 2014 rules with changes to the colors in the GUI. THAT"S "nearly" identical. Pulling the fuse on what we purchased and deserve continued access to....abd then giving us garbage we never intended to use....is in no sane way...better than nothing.
It is better than nothing for most. I am sorry you would rather have nothing. That is not what I was talking about and as I have already explained, I have made room in my argument for people who share your opinion.
It is an upgrade, officially. You just do not like the upgrade and you are entitled to not like it. Many YouTubers have reviewed the spells and items and talked about how most textual changes are the same, but add clarifications for rules with examples, patches loopholes and exploitive speedbumps, and making it a better gaming experience for the table - upgrade. There are some larger buffs and nerfs for some specific things, but mostly those have even been reviewed positively.
If nothing is better for you, that is still an option for you.
correct, and what your claiming is...a downgrade is better than nothing, and its not. its the same as having nothing...as it becomes useless. we all know you see this, and are just trying to cover bad statements you made without thinking them all the way through.to
That is EXACTLY what is happening. You keep touting they are giving us an upgrade and they arent. Its NOT nearly identical. That would be the 2014 rules with changes to the colors in the GUI. THAT"S "nearly" identical. Pulling the fuse on what we purchased and deserve continued access to....abd then giving us garbage we never intended to use....is in no sane way...better than nothing.
It is better than nothing for most. I am sorry you would rather have nothing. That is not what I was talking about and as I have already explained, I have made room in my argument for people who share your opinion.
It is an upgrade, officially. You just do not like the upgrade and you are entitled to not like it. Many YouTubers have reviewed the spells and items and talked about how most textual changes are the same, but add clarifications for rules with examples, patches loopholes and exploitive speedbumps, and making it a better gaming experience for the table - upgrade. There are some larger buffs and nerfs for some specific things, but mostly those have even been reviewed positively.
If nothing is better for you, that is still an option for you.
Quit calling it an upgrade. It's not objectively an upgrade because quality is subjective. It's a change, that's all that can accurately be attributed to it in that sense.
And for anyone wanting to keep the 2014 rules in the toolkit (like they paid for), it's a downgrade for those individuals. That can be officially stated because it's based on what they want out of the tools.
And people keep harping on it because he's trying to have completely different conversation than the rest of us, we all know his position that getting the replacement in his eyes is better than losing the spells entirely, we're not talking about that. We're talking about losing accessibility to the content we paid for.
This is not correct. I am not trying to have a completely different conversation than the rest of you. I am refusing the conversation you are continually trying to drag me into. Don't tag me to talk about stuff that is not related to my post if it frustrates you that I do not engage in those separate conversations.
I was answering a question posed by another user, and not engaging with you personally, and this is fact the first time I spoken to you. Love that you cherry picked the one line from my response to get huffy about while ignoring the rest of it. If others taking your posts in bad faith frustrates you could just not engage with those conversations.
I didn't think that they had actually given a definite answer on whether you would be able to add 2014 content to character sheets, just that all character sheets will default to the new 2024 content. They were being vague and skirting around the issue with the new clarification (backtrack) announcement by saying 2014 content will still be available but not mentioning at all if you can add it to character sheets. Maybe I missed something but that's what I had read.
I also think that it is crazy that in the character creation home page it will not be possible to toggle OFF the new 2024 rules. What if we want to play completely without them? We just aren't allowed to do that anymore?
This is just another OGL fiasco all over again where they make these terrible changes to things that the community absolutely despises and makes no sense to do in the first place and then they go into damage control mode and start rolling stuff back.
Let's hope they roll it back enough because I've already told the players in my games to make backups of their DnDbeyond character sheets on other platforms or at least take screenshots so they can be remade somewhere else, and I have probably at least 30 I have to backup myself because I use character sheets for a lot of NPCs in my homebrew world, and also have a handful of PCs on here as well.
You will 100% be able to make and play characters using the 2014 rules. The issue people are concerned about is that certain parts of the system are being updated to the new rules in such a way that it will affect those characters in the toolset, spells and equipment being the main issues, presumably because they're not segmented in the system the same way as other things that have been marked "Legacy" in the past (but that last bit is my educated guess).
So even though you have a 2014 character, the links in the tools will point to the current 2024 version of spells and equipment and the 2014 versions will only be accessible via the compendium content. That's the problem.
No, you can make a character with *some* 2014 rules. Other rules you will be forced to use 2024 rules. Existing character sheets will have some features forcibly changed to 2024 rules. There will be no way to build a 100% 2014 cjaracter on here adter the switchover.
This is all quite clear in the changelog. They have listed a homebrew workaround for spells, however experimentation on the forums has shown that this won't work in many cases.
Access through the compendium is irrelevant to the character builder features being removed.
I mean I wasn't gonna read a million replies so I obviously didn't see the people that beat me to it. My apologies.
I don't think it makes you a hardliner 2014 player in the slightest to have started a campaign with the 2014 rules, be 2-3 years into said campaign and not want to change to a new set of rules for the completion of that campaign? I actually think that most people in that situation will keep playing by the 2014 rules, maybe picking through the 2024 stuff and adding a few things they like piecemeal. That's what I intend to do anyways.
All I want is an option to keep all of my campaigns character sheets EXACTLY the same as they are now.
That's fair. This thread has exploded.
'Hardliner', is a word I am reserving for people who have explicitly stated, several times now, that they would rather WotC removed the 2014 spells and magic items, and given them nothing... made the spells and magic items only available for those who are willing to pay for the 2024 rules. That is, in my opinion, people so dedicated to not having their senses offended by the presence of 2024 rules, that hardliner is appropriate to quickly refer to them.
I am a player in three campaigns right now. All are using the 2014 rules. None of my DMs have settled on when and if we are moving to the new rules but one. I do understand the desire to finish up a campaign before moving to new rules. I don't disagree with the sentiment. If my DMs wanted that, I would say 'sounds fun'. If they moved over immediately, I would also say 'sounds fun'.
I understand your want. I have no problem with your want.
yup...and he could not be more wrong, as that flawed logic ignores the relative values what is taken...and what is given have to each other. without that information taking into his reasoning, the statement just cannot be valid. As previously stated, oh you taking my toy and leaving me crap formatted examples.
Same here! An option like that would be great.
I dunno if I'd rather have nothing... I have no intention of using the new content but I think "Your sheets will no longer be supported. Bye!" would have been MUCH worse.
But I've gotta admit regardless of what the cause of this issue is WotC's recent history over the last three years makes stuff like this just feel slimy. Whether or not it's intentional it certainly feels like we're being told "You don't want that product, you want THIS product." which certainly could have been avoided.
We could go back and forth for days on this and we'd both be right because, yes, they're taking something you bought but, no they're actually just updating something you bought. Apple does it all the time. It's in the Terms of Service, etc. ad infinitum.
But all I was saying is that the guy that pointed out the fact that having something is better than having nothing, that's all he pointed out. Everyone keeps harping on him because they don't consider the update to be better than the 2014 rules, but he never ascribed value to either set of rules, he only said that 1 > 0.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Granted, it's not a large number (as in I've only seen one person say as much), but there was a comment saying they'd rather have nothing than a subpar replacement.
I didn't think that they had actually given a definite answer on whether you would be able to add 2014 content to character sheets, just that all character sheets will default to the new 2024 content. They were being vague and skirting around the issue with the new clarification (backtrack) announcement by saying 2014 content will still be available but not mentioning at all if you can add it to character sheets. Maybe I missed something but that's what I had read.
I also think that it is crazy that in the character creation home page it will not be possible to toggle OFF the new 2024 rules. What if we want to play completely without them? We just aren't allowed to do that anymore?
This is just another OGL fiasco all over again where they make these terrible changes to things that the community absolutely despises and makes no sense to do in the first place and then they go into damage control mode and start rolling stuff back.
Let's hope they roll it back enough because I've already told the players in my games to make backups of their DnDbeyond character sheets on other platforms or at least take screenshots so they can be remade somewhere else, and I have probably at least 30 I have to backup myself because I use character sheets for a lot of NPCs in my homebrew world, and also have a handful of PCs on here as well.
Literally did not say I wanted nothing, I want the content I paid for. What I said was that giving me a replacement that I did not ask for, and do not want, is not better than the thing I actually paid for.
An open and honest admission six months ago that these changes were happening with an offer to refund the difference between the toolkit and compendium prices would have been better.
A toggle between the 2014/2024 version would have been better.
Just not forcing updates to players who hadn't purchased the 2024 books would have been better.
And people keep harping on it because he's trying to have completely different conversation than the rest of us, we all know his position that getting the replacement in his eyes is better than losing the spells entirely, we're not talking about that. We're talking about losing accessibility to the content we paid for.
I did not ignore value at all and have acknowledged individual value held by others many times. What my post you chose to argue against was addressing, was the misunderstanding that people would lost access to the 2014 spells and magic items in the toolset AND would have to pay for the new ones; losing something and getting nothing.
The changelog addresses that misunderstanding and I was addressing the person who stated that this was not better. It is better to get something rather than nothing (for most). If you would rather have nothing than something, you don't have to use the 2024 toolset, because that, apparently, is better for you.
Many other people had their concerned directly addressed by this changelog. Those people have even posted in this thread expressing relief.
Not everyone in this thread shares your anger. Their opinions and feelings are just as valid as yours are.
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correct, and what your claiming is...a downgrade is better than nothing, and its not. its the same as having nothing...as it becomes useless. we all know you see this, and are just trying to cover bad statements you made without thinking them all the way through.to
That is not what has happened, so the analogy, just like so many used before yours, has failed. It is more like they took your cool toy and replaced it with their updated version that is nearly identical in every way, but it doesn't have any chips in the paint. You liked those chips in the paint though, because it added character. Your feelings on the change are not being disputed, but rather, you entire understanding of what I had even been talking about.
That is EXACTLY what is happening. You keep touting they are giving us an upgrade and they arent. Its NOT nearly identical. That would be the 2014 rules with changes to the colors in the GUI. THAT"S "nearly" identical. Pulling the fuse on what we purchased and deserve continued access to....abd then giving us garbage we never intended to use....is in no sane way...better than nothing.
If I'm trying to play a 2014 character in a 2014 game, having a 2024 character & sheet is no better than having no sheet. In both cases I cannot play.
His point is only relevant in a vague philosophical sense. Generally "something" is better than "nothing", but in this situation both give exactly the same result.
Unfortunately he's more interested in being right and bloviating at every mention of himself than actually posting anything relevant to the situation.
If you replace my car with a different car, and I'm justifiably upset that I no longer have my car, being the person to point out that I now have a different car is profoundly insensitive and unhelpful. I'm entitled to my feelings over having my car taken away from me, I'm not interested in some stranger pointing out that I was left with something else. It's my car, give it back.
Yes, it's technically in the TOS that they can do this. That's not helpful, either. In this digital age, we're stuck with lots of products that we don't technically "own", but that doesn't mean we don't expect the provider we "bought" it from to give us access to it. Steam can probably legally nuke my video game library, but you bet your ass that if they do, I'll be raging.
For the vast majority of people in the thread, that was always a strawman argument and completely useless to the conversation as a whole. There may be one or two in here saying that they'd rather have nothing, but the majority aren't covered at all by what he said.
You will 100% be able to make and play characters using the 2014 rules. The issue people are concerned about is that certain parts of the system are being updated to the new rules in such a way that it will affect those characters in the toolset, spells and equipment being the main issues, presumably because they're not segmented in the system the same way as other things that have been marked "Legacy" in the past (but that last bit is my educated guess).
So even though you have a 2014 character, the links in the tools will point to the current 2024 version of spells and equipment and the 2014 versions will only be accessible via the compendium content. That's the problem.
Grant K. Smith
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This is not correct. I am not trying to have a completely different conversation than the rest of you. I am refusing the conversation you are continually trying to drag me into. Don't tag me to talk about stuff that is not related to my post if it frustrates you that I do not engage in those separate conversations.
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I mean I wasn't gonna read a million replies so I obviously didn't see the people that beat me to it. My apologies.
I don't think it makes you a hardliner 2014 player in the slightest to have started a campaign with the 2014 rules, be 2-3 years into said campaign and not want to change to a new set of rules for the completion of that campaign? I actually think that most people in that situation will keep playing by the 2014 rules, maybe picking through the 2024 stuff and adding a few things they like piecemeal. That's what I intend to do anyways.
All I want is an option to keep all of my campaigns character sheets EXACTLY the same as they are now.
It is better than nothing for most. I am sorry you would rather have nothing. That is not what I was talking about and as I have already explained, I have made room in my argument for people who share your opinion.
It is an upgrade, officially. You just do not like the upgrade and you are entitled to not like it. Many YouTubers have reviewed the spells and items and talked about how most textual changes are the same, but add clarifications for rules with examples, patches loopholes and exploitive speedbumps, and making it a better gaming experience for the table - upgrade. There are some larger buffs and nerfs for some specific things, but mostly those have even been reviewed positively.
If nothing is better for you, that is still an option for you.
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Quit calling it an upgrade. It's not objectively an upgrade because quality is subjective. It's a change, that's all that can accurately be attributed to it in that sense.
And for anyone wanting to keep the 2014 rules in the toolkit (like they paid for), it's a downgrade for those individuals. That can be officially stated because it's based on what they want out of the tools.
I was answering a question posed by another user, and not engaging with you personally, and this is fact the first time I spoken to you. Love that you cherry picked the one line from my response to get huffy about while ignoring the rest of it. If others taking your posts in bad faith frustrates you could just not engage with those conversations.
No, you can make a character with *some* 2014 rules. Other rules you will be forced to use 2024 rules. Existing character sheets will have some features forcibly changed to 2024 rules. There will be no way to build a 100% 2014 cjaracter on here adter the switchover.
This is all quite clear in the changelog. They have listed a homebrew workaround for spells, however experimentation on the forums has shown that this won't work in many cases.
Access through the compendium is irrelevant to the character builder features being removed.
That's fair. This thread has exploded.
'Hardliner', is a word I am reserving for people who have explicitly stated, several times now, that they would rather WotC removed the 2014 spells and magic items, and given them nothing... made the spells and magic items only available for those who are willing to pay for the 2024 rules. That is, in my opinion, people so dedicated to not having their senses offended by the presence of 2024 rules, that hardliner is appropriate to quickly refer to them.
I am a player in three campaigns right now. All are using the 2014 rules. None of my DMs have settled on when and if we are moving to the new rules but one. I do understand the desire to finish up a campaign before moving to new rules. I don't disagree with the sentiment. If my DMs wanted that, I would say 'sounds fun'. If they moved over immediately, I would also say 'sounds fun'.
I understand your want. I have no problem with your want.
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