The 2012 Conjure Animals spell is not the same content as the 2024 Conjure Animals spell. The former will no longer be available in the character builder. Maybe you're confused because they have the same name, but they are not the same content. Both are valid under 5e rules and should both be available in the character builder.
I don't think I can make things much simpler.
I never said they were the same versions. In fact, I stated that you have the same spell, but that it has been updated to the current version.
In your rush to claim some imagined victory, you have failed to understand my argument at all. Please read my posts for what they are, not what you hope them to be.
The 2012 Conjure Animals spell is not the same content as the 2024 Conjure Animals spell. The former will no longer be available in the character builder. Maybe you're confused because they have the same name, but they are not the same content. Both are valid under 5e rules and should both be available in the character builder.
I don't think I can make things much simpler.
I never said they were the same versions. In fact, I stated that you have the same spell, but that it has been updated to the current version.
In your rush to claim some imagined victory, you have failed to understand my argument at all. Please read my posts for what they are, not what you hope them to be.
If your argument is that two very different spells are actually the same spell just because they share a name, then no, I don't understand it at all.
I'll go bang my head against a wall for 5-10 minutes though, maybe some light brain damage will help.
On the other hand if you want to explain how the *2014* version of the spell will still be available on the character sheet I'm all ears.
There is no database design ever that would warrant replacement on a technical site at all.
Yeah there is. No good database design would require it, but if you think the backend code isn't held together with duct tape and baling wire you've been on a different site from me. My guess is that characters are stored as some blob (say, json or xml) that is storing known spells by name (rather than by some database unique ID). Not an unfixable problem, but not trivial.
I feel like "Well technically the company consider it the same content so you still have access" is disingenuous and overly lawyer-y.
Like it's legally correct, but it's not correct in any reasonable way. If everyones sheets say a different thing to what they were expecting they no longer have access to that thing, that's true whether or not you consider the stuff "Updated"
That's true of errata's too, if you update the wording of something you no longer have access to that initial thing. The difference here is that an errata is a minor change done for clarity, changes to spells like conjure animals are not being done for clarity, they're being done because the new version of the game wanted to address concerns about action economy. If you want to play the old version you no longer have access to those spells, even if the company says "Legally those totally different spells are the same."
No one I know had any idea about these changes until hearing about it through word of mouth and negative press in the news which has only started to catch fire in the last 24 hours. Dndbeyond didn't send out any emails or put a banner on this site telling people who own the 2014 content that we are about to lose access to it on our charactor sheets.
I only found out that i was about to lose access to 2014 content because a friend posted it in our DND group chat. Just like most sites the vast majority of players don't visit the forums and will have no idea whats coming till its too late. 95% of players don't look at the forums until something goes wrong.
Most of the people I know through DND have been caught by surprise by this news because we have been told by the staff here we could carry on playing under the 2014 rules with 2014 characters. There has been ZERO communication saying otherwise till 2 days ago and most of the communication before-hand was telling us that we can carrying on playing with the 2014 rules and characters.
I had no idea that a update was about to be pushed out that would break my charactors and strip me of content I paid for and I'm willing to bet that after the 3rd of September there's going to be thousands of very angry, very upset DM's and players wondering why their 2014 charactors are suddenly 2024 ones.
Thousands of people will be logging in for for their weekly or monthly DND games to suddenly find out their charactors are now 2024 ruleset ones with no way to revert it and that they have lost access to 2014-2023 compatible content which will result in certain subclasses becoming broken.
I have seen the phrase "hardiner 2014 players" being used for anyone who wants to stay with the current rules and content. Calling the thousands upon thousands of people who are currently subscribed for the 2014 5e ruleset for the digital tools to play a 2014 game "hardiner 2014 players" is insulting and antagonistic. The same applies to the comments in this thread calling 5e 2014 rules a broken television.
All I have seen over last few pages of this thread is the same couple of people making multiple replies on each page arguing with everyone else which is only causing further upset, anger and distress. At this point anyone looking to post their feedback here is being discouraged by the discourse in this thread and the implied disrespect for people who want to carry on playing 2014 ruleset characters.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
A change of this magnitude should warrant a email to everyone using this site with the opportunity for us to give feedback BEFORE these changes are implemented. Not just a forum post where the only way to give feedback results with people arguing with you that your wrong.
That doesn't address the concern or complaints that were being made in the first place.
Which is having to manually add all the things you guys are switching out. Where is the convenience in that? I might as well not even use dndbeyond at that point.
If your argument is that two very different spells are actually the same spell just because they share a name, then no, I don't understand it at all.
I'll go bang my head against a wall for 5-10 minutes though, maybe some light brain damage will help.
On the other hand if you want to explain how the *2014* version of the spell will still be available on the character sheet I'm all ears.
They are the same spell, but different versions.
I do not want to engage you in some tangential argument, no. You have other threads where you have convinced people to do that, as you have stated.
Is the original (and still 5e valid) 2014 version still going to be available in the character builder, yes or no. You were sure earlier that content isn't being removed so this should be an easy answer for you.
I'll remind you that the 2024 version isn't the same content.
I have seen the phrase "hardiner 2014 players" being used for everyone who wants to stay with the current rules and content. Calling the thousands upon thousands of people who are currently subscribed for the 2014 5e ruleset for the digital tools to play a 2014 game "hardiner 2014 players" is insulting and antagonistic. The same applies to comments calling 5e 2014 rules a broken television.
All I have seen over last few pages of this thread is the same couple of people making multiple replies on each page arguing with everyone else which is only causing further upset, anger and distress. At this point anyone looking to post their feedback here is being discouraged by the discourse in this thread and the implied disrespect for people who want to carry on playing 2014 ruleset characters.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping.
...
This is a misuse of the term I as I am using it and how I have explained my use of it. You know this, as you have stated you have been following this thread. I gave my use of the word here:
'Hardliner', is a word I am reserving for people who have explicitly stated, several times now, that they would rather WotC removed the 2014 spells and magic items, and given them nothing... made the spells and magic items only available for those who are willing to pay for the 2024 rules. That is, in my opinion, people so dedicated to not having their senses offended by the presence of 2024 rules, that hardliner is appropriate to quickly refer to them.
...
The term hardliner is not an offensive term. It quickly describes a group of people in this thread who are uncompromising with respect to the 2024 rules that they would rather WotC takes away their access to it and leave them with no content at all. It is not an antagonistic word and it was never used to refer to those who simply prefer the 2024 rules.
As for me and a couple others responding to people in this thread, that is something we are allowed to do. We can disagree and we can disagree over a long period of time too. I have taken the opportunity, many times, to the point that I have almost as much as I have defended my actual arguments, that people are allowed to feel upset and that their feelings are valid. People who do not tag me and do not refer to me have never heard from me at all. There are at least a dozen posts on every page that I never responded to because they were not directly trying to argue with me or trying a dig at me by referring to me indirectly.
Is the original (and still 5e valid) 2014 version still going to be available in the character builder, yes or no. You were sure earlier that content isn't being removed so this should be an easy answer for you.
I'll remind you that the 2024 version isn't the same content.
I already answered this? No.
There is no confusion on my part, nor is the message being mixed despite obvious efforts to obfuscate. The content isn't being removed; it is being updated to reflect the current rules of the game.
How you feel about the update is separate from any conversation I have had with you and once again, it is a conversation I am not interested in having.
People are blowing this up and i dont think they realise whats going on.
90% of the spells and magic items HAVENT CHANGED. The 10% that have are BETTER than the old versions. and thats just the the ones IN THE PHB.
EVERY other spell in the other books hasnt changed and you can still use them.
"Better" is purely subjective. In case you need to be reminded some players still play even earlier editions of the game because they consider those to be "better."
And "better" or not that does not address how many groups do not want to change rules mid-campaign.
Is the original (and still 5e valid) 2014 version still going to be available in the character builder, yes or no. You were sure earlier that content isn't being removed so this should be an easy answer for you.
I'll remind you that the 2024 version isn't the same content.
I already answered this? No.
There is no confusion on my part, nor is the message being mixed despite obvious efforts to obfuscate. The content isn't being removed; it is being updated to reflect the current rules of the game.
How you feel about the update is separate from any conversation I have had with you and once again, it is a conversation I am not interested in having.
Both versions are valid though, why is one being removed when both should be available. WotC and DDB have been very clear that these aren't replacement rules.
Updating to the new version implicitly means that the original is no longer accessible. If I update my PC from Windows 10 to Windows 11 I no longer have Windows 10. If I "update" my car from a 2020 model to a 2024 model I no longer have the 2020 model.
Both versions are valid though, why is one being removed when both should be available. WotC and DDB have been very clear that these aren't replacement rules.
Updating to the new version implicitly means that the original is no longer accessible. If I update my PC from Windows 10 to Windows 11 I no longer have Windows 10. If I "update" my car from a 2020 model to a 2024 model I no longer have the 2020 model.
Why are you trying to argue about validity with me? That is not an argument I have held. You should ask them this question, as they have insight into the legal, operational, and financial decisions that take place regarding the DDB digital tool. Not some random guy on the internet.
You have access to the content in the digital toolset, just not the version of that content you like. I applaud you for expressing that dislike. I do not applaud you for trying to argue with me over it when I have consistently stated I do not disagree with you (impersonal form) on available versions.
Both versions are valid though, why is one being removed when both should be available. WotC and DDB have been very clear that these aren't replacement rules.
Updating to the new version implicitly means that the original is no longer accessible. If I update my PC from Windows 10 to Windows 11 I no longer have Windows 10. If I "update" my car from a 2020 model to a 2024 model I no longer have the 2020 model.
Why are you trying to argue about validity with me? That is not an argument I have held. You should ask them this question, as they have insight into the legal, operational, and financial decisions that take place regarding the DDB digital tool. Not some random guy on the internet.
You have access to the content in the digital toolset, just not the version of that content you like. I applaud you for expressing that dislike. I do not applaud you for trying to argue with me over it when I have consistently stated I do not disagree with you (impersonal form) on available versions.
I'm asking about validity as you seem to be under the impression that the 2024 version is the only valid version. I'm pointing out that both versions are valid, so the 2024 version being available is irrelevant to the 2014 version being removed. If the valid 2014 is not accessable in the character builder then WotC have removed content that I have paid for.
That's it. Acknowledge that content is being removed (or at least stop posting that it isnt) and we can end this tedious discussion. But if you keep on insisting that the new rule replaces the old and therefore access to the new is equivalent to access to the old, then I'm going to have to keep correcting you.
I purchased content for the character builder. That will no longer be accessable. Do not try and claim that compendium content is an acceptable substitute.
I will not.
The content is still available in the character builder, just in its updated form..
I thought that we had come to an understanding of why this is hair splitting way back on page 14:
It's not though it's a forced update. A lot of people are using the 2014 rule set. We don't want it to be forced on us. They need to add a toggle. That's it. But this is too force people to buy the new books nothing more. It's WOTC money grabbing again
Whether this is an accepted update has never been a subject that I had disputed.
The still more accurate analogy is stealing my 10 year old NTSC television and replacing it with a $5,000 SECAM television.
If the content I want to watch on my TV is broadcast in NTSC, the new TV on my doorstep is not better, subjectively or objectively. It is a prettier, more expensive brick.
D&D Beyond’s response is saying it is not a brick, because we still can watch NTSC content; we just each need to transcode portions of the video ourselves. Which is true, even if they cannot tell us precisely what needs to be transcoded (e.g. list of affected spells.)
It is also far less convenient or easy than if they had not stolen our old TV in the first place. And convenience and ease are the main, if not only, reason, many of us bought the legendary bundle and have been a subscriber all these years.
I do like this analogy. No notes.
For 20 extra pages, people have been going back and forth on words, and not the main issue. Whether or not the label “same content” can reasonably be slapped on Conjure Animals is ultimately irrelevant. As the Bard (neither 2014 nor 2024) once asked, “What’s in a name?”
Undeniably, for people who want to play by 2014 rules, that rose by any other name will grow some thorns, and come September 3rd they will have to do more work than they did on September 2nd. I understand that for many users, this is a non-issue, either because they want to update or the changes simply do not matter to them. Those users should register satisfaction (or neutrality) with these changes, certainly. However, for those users for whom continuing by 2014 rules are an issue, this is a degradation in ease of use from a provider whose prime selling point is ease of use, and those users should just as certainly complain.
Now, how much work is involved, here? Another part of the issue is that we do not know outside of broad categories through official channels. But I took a shot, because, while I think these changes are being poorly handled, I still find the D&D Beyond toolkit best-in-class, and I’ve made the choice to try and work with it and see how it goes; purely using the browser, I now have Conjure Animals and Conjure Animals (2014), etc, in my spell lists. But the fact that I had to:
Go to another site to get their idea of what spells have changed, rather than find that here
Have prior knowledge in some relevant in-browser tooling
Have the time to step through these for 100-ish spells
How long this takes any DM to do this will depend on the level of automation they attempt to involve, but please consult and make sure to respect your license.. The point, however each DM accomplishes it, is that each DM has individually to put forth time and effort of the sort we traditionally have paid D&D Beyond to do for us.
And for my ongoing 2014 rule games, every time I have to ask my players
Join one of my campaigns
Have each of them replace any spells on their sheets with my homebrewed equivalent.
(Other users on this thread argue that even with homebrew you cannot get all the way there, but I am not touching that here.)
Ultimately, the name argument matters very little. I don’t think it controversial to state all users care about here is that they can spend limited leisure time and dollars in, well, leisure - actually enjoying this hobby we love. D&D Beyond has been a great asset in this regard over the years, but for those games that want to stay on 2014 rules for whatever reason, it will become less so. Because I rely heavily on (and enjoy) D&D Beyond and expect to start my new campaigns on 2024 rules, I am not adding my voice to the cancellation choir, instead choosing to work with what we have before the cutover. But that I had to actually work with no help or support, instead of having the tool do work for me as it has in the past, means:
My satisfaction level as a customer has plummeted that I was required to this
My trust in them not forcing this level of effort on me again has been severely damaged
So the unthinkable - looking at alternatives - is starting to become thinkable, even for as big of a fan of D&D Beyond as I am.
And I hope mods are able to register that while wading through the dozens of pages of arguments over semantics.
Nobody wants this. We bought 5e books on this site to use with the character builder. Now you are taking that feature away.
It is intentional. You KNOW 2024 will bomb so you are making it as hard as possible to access and use the older content to force us to buy the new.
If I wanted to home brew everything I’d not buy a single book from you and play on roll20.
Which is what I am going to do if this goes forward. I’ve already canceled my master tier. This is the last straw, the OGL disaster now this. I hope you go out of business.
Extremely well said. How many first time players are going to take the time to learn how to change their character sheets to use the various home brew spells, magical items,, and feats I create to make the rules actually work as written in my 2014 campaigns?
I have literally been the 5e DM for over two dozen people who had never played a TTRPG before. When the 2024 preorder came out I asked about stopping the current campaigns and starting fresh. Almost every player didn't want to switch, and the rest were okay with either option. Several of my current players have never made it from level 1 to level 20 before. Imagine how great it would be for them to get that experience. Now imagine how upset they will be if I shut down all my campaigns and switch to games not in the OGL sphere?
I'm blessed that my first campaign made it all the way through the Immortal (Gold boxed set) rules. I want my new players to get the equivalent experience. Please help me make it happen.
I never said they were the same versions. In fact, I stated that you have the same spell, but that it has been updated to the current version.
In your rush to claim some imagined victory, you have failed to understand my argument at all. Please read my posts for what they are, not what you hope them to be.
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If your argument is that two very different spells are actually the same spell just because they share a name, then no, I don't understand it at all.
I'll go bang my head against a wall for 5-10 minutes though, maybe some light brain damage will help.
On the other hand if you want to explain how the *2014* version of the spell will still be available on the character sheet I'm all ears.
Yeah there is. No good database design would require it, but if you think the backend code isn't held together with duct tape and baling wire you've been on a different site from me. My guess is that characters are stored as some blob (say, json or xml) that is storing known spells by name (rather than by some database unique ID). Not an unfixable problem, but not trivial.
I feel like "Well technically the company consider it the same content so you still have access" is disingenuous and overly lawyer-y.
Like it's legally correct, but it's not correct in any reasonable way. If everyones sheets say a different thing to what they were expecting they no longer have access to that thing, that's true whether or not you consider the stuff "Updated"
That's true of errata's too, if you update the wording of something you no longer have access to that initial thing. The difference here is that an errata is a minor change done for clarity, changes to spells like conjure animals are not being done for clarity, they're being done because the new version of the game wanted to address concerns about action economy. If you want to play the old version you no longer have access to those spells, even if the company says "Legally those totally different spells are the same."
They are the same spell, but different versions.
I do not want to engage you in some tangential argument, no. You have other threads where you have convinced people to do that, as you have stated.
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That doesn't address the concern or complaints that were being made in the first place.
Which is having to manually add all the things you guys are switching out. Where is the convenience in that? I might as well not even use dndbeyond at that point.
Is the original (and still 5e valid) 2014 version still going to be available in the character builder, yes or no. You were sure earlier that content isn't being removed so this should be an easy answer for you.
I'll remind you that the 2024 version isn't the same content.
I paid for the ability to make characters with the content i paid for. That’s what I want to keep. That’s what we all want.
This is a misuse of the term I as I am using it and how I have explained my use of it. You know this, as you have stated you have been following this thread. I gave my use of the word here:
The term hardliner is not an offensive term. It quickly describes a group of people in this thread who are uncompromising with respect to the 2024 rules that they would rather WotC takes away their access to it and leave them with no content at all. It is not an antagonistic word and it was never used to refer to those who simply prefer the 2024 rules.
As for me and a couple others responding to people in this thread, that is something we are allowed to do. We can disagree and we can disagree over a long period of time too. I have taken the opportunity, many times, to the point that I have almost as much as I have defended my actual arguments, that people are allowed to feel upset and that their feelings are valid. People who do not tag me and do not refer to me have never heard from me at all. There are at least a dozen posts on every page that I never responded to because they were not directly trying to argue with me or trying a dig at me by referring to me indirectly.
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I already answered this? No.
There is no confusion on my part, nor is the message being mixed despite obvious efforts to obfuscate. The content isn't being removed; it is being updated to reflect the current rules of the game.
How you feel about the update is separate from any conversation I have had with you and once again, it is a conversation I am not interested in having.
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"Better" is purely subjective. In case you need to be reminded some players still play even earlier editions of the game because they consider those to be "better."
And "better" or not that does not address how many groups do not want to change rules mid-campaign.
Both versions are valid though, why is one being removed when both should be available. WotC and DDB have been very clear that these aren't replacement rules.
Updating to the new version implicitly means that the original is no longer accessible. If I update my PC from Windows 10 to Windows 11 I no longer have Windows 10. If I "update" my car from a 2020 model to a 2024 model I no longer have the 2020 model.
Why are you trying to argue about validity with me? That is not an argument I have held. You should ask them this question, as they have insight into the legal, operational, and financial decisions that take place regarding the DDB digital tool. Not some random guy on the internet.
You have access to the content in the digital toolset, just not the version of that content you like. I applaud you for expressing that dislike. I do not applaud you for trying to argue with me over it when I have consistently stated I do not disagree with you (impersonal form) on available versions.
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I'm asking about validity as you seem to be under the impression that the 2024 version is the only valid version. I'm pointing out that both versions are valid, so the 2024 version being available is irrelevant to the 2014 version being removed. If the valid 2014 is not accessable in the character builder then WotC have removed content that I have paid for.
That's it. Acknowledge that content is being removed (or at least stop posting that it isnt) and we can end this tedious discussion. But if you keep on insisting that the new rule replaces the old and therefore access to the new is equivalent to access to the old, then I'm going to have to keep correcting you.
I thought that we had come to an understanding of why this is hair splitting way back on page 14:
For 20 extra pages, people have been going back and forth on words, and not the main issue. Whether or not the label “same content” can reasonably be slapped on Conjure Animals is ultimately irrelevant. As the Bard (neither 2014 nor 2024) once asked, “What’s in a name?”
Undeniably, for people who want to play by 2014 rules, that rose by any other name will grow some thorns, and come September 3rd they will have to do more work than they did on September 2nd. I understand that for many users, this is a non-issue, either because they want to update or the changes simply do not matter to them. Those users should register satisfaction (or neutrality) with these changes, certainly. However, for those users for whom continuing by 2014 rules are an issue, this is a degradation in ease of use from a provider whose prime selling point is ease of use, and those users should just as certainly complain.
Now, how much work is involved, here? Another part of the issue is that we do not know outside of broad categories through official channels. But I took a shot, because, while I think these changes are being poorly handled, I still find the D&D Beyond toolkit best-in-class, and I’ve made the choice to try and work with it and see how it goes; purely using the browser, I now have Conjure Animals and Conjure Animals (2014), etc, in my spell lists. But the fact that I had to:
How long this takes any DM to do this will depend on the level of automation they attempt to involve, but please consult and make sure to respect your license.. The point, however each DM accomplishes it, is that each DM has individually to put forth time and effort of the sort we traditionally have paid D&D Beyond to do for us.
And for my ongoing 2014 rule games, every time I have to ask my players
(Other users on this thread argue that even with homebrew you cannot get all the way there, but I am not touching that here.)
Ultimately, the name argument matters very little. I don’t think it controversial to state all users care about here is that they can spend limited leisure time and dollars in, well, leisure - actually enjoying this hobby we love. D&D Beyond has been a great asset in this regard over the years, but for those games that want to stay on 2014 rules for whatever reason, it will become less so. Because I rely heavily on (and enjoy) D&D Beyond and expect to start my new campaigns on 2024 rules, I am not adding my voice to the cancellation choir, instead choosing to work with what we have before the cutover. But that I had to actually work with no help or support, instead of having the tool do work for me as it has in the past, means:
So the unthinkable - looking at alternatives - is starting to become thinkable, even for as big of a fan of D&D Beyond as I am.
And I hope mods are able to register that while wading through the dozens of pages of arguments over semantics.
Nobody wants this. We bought 5e books on this site to use with the character builder. Now you are taking that feature away.
It is intentional. You KNOW 2024 will bomb so you are making it as hard as possible to access and use the older content to force us to buy the new.
If I wanted to home brew everything I’d not buy a single book from you and play on roll20.
Which is what I am going to do if this goes forward. I’ve already canceled my master tier. This is the last straw, the OGL disaster now this. I hope you go out of business.
Extremely well said. How many first time players are going to take the time to learn how to change their character sheets to use the various home brew spells, magical items,, and feats I create to make the rules actually work as written in my 2014 campaigns?
I have literally been the 5e DM for over two dozen people who had never played a TTRPG before. When the 2024 preorder came out I asked about stopping the current campaigns and starting fresh. Almost every player didn't want to switch, and the rest were okay with either option. Several of my current players have never made it from level 1 to level 20 before. Imagine how great it would be for them to get that experience. Now imagine how upset they will be if I shut down all my campaigns and switch to games not in the OGL sphere?
I'm blessed that my first campaign made it all the way through the Immortal (Gold boxed set) rules. I want my new players to get the equivalent experience. Please help me make it happen.
Remember that magic word that Hasbro / WotC talked about some time ago, to their shareholders?
Monetization
Posting on these boards won't change any minds of the people whose goal is the above word. Vote with your wallets, just walk away.
fight all about and I don't like fighting on the forums and scared me
merlin the warlock