Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Arcana: 19

[[On that roll, your assumptions about Brand's knowledge of familiars are quite valid.]]

[[ Has he heard of Beholders? I assume they are not known in this universe, but I don't know if 5e broadened the field for Engle!

No matter what, continue as before ]]

Brand tries to get out of sight of anyone entering the neighbour's roof area as best he can, and with no small amount of trepidation, becomes visible. Still whispering he says, "It's me. Melitta's friend. Over here. Do you need assistance? Can you speak?"

If Adzo remains silent, he says "if not, bounce up and down for yes...do you need help?"

Brand becomes visible, but Adzo doesn't react until he starts to speak, at which point the hovering creature whirls to face him and two beams erupt from two of the four eye stalks.

[[

Beam type 1: 4 [[Brand needs to make a Strength saving throw against a DC of 12 to avoid being hurled back by the creature's telekinesis ray.]]

Beam type 2a (which cannot be the same): 4

Beam type 2b (which cannot be the same): 4

Beam type 2c (which cannot be the same): 2 [[Brand needs to make a Wisdom saving throw against a DC of 12 to avoid being frightened until the start of the creature's next turn.]]

[[You were right for Brand to be trepidatious. Please make the above Saving throws.]]

 [You were right for Brand to be trepidatious. ]]

[[ lol. Indeed. *I* would have run! ]]

[[ Because I hope you are going to ask: Initiative: 20

Strength ST: 15

Wis ST: 2

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

 [You were right for Brand to be trepidatious. ]]

[[ lol. Indeed. *I* would have run! ]]

---

[[ Because I hope you are going to ask: Initiative: 20

Strength ST: 15

Wis ST: 2

[[I will allow the Wisdom Save to be made at Advantage because Brand was trepidatious.]]

Second Wis ST: 18

[[ Thanks, though I must admit, his actions are likely to be identical either way!

Probably need a description re Brands location in relation to Adzo and the two means of egress, as well as distances etc.

- Distancle to hole in wall and (presumed) hole in roof? He tried to get out of sight of the hold, so I assume he is against the wall near the hole?
- Distance to hole in floor?
- Position of Azo

How big is Adzo?]]

[[ Also, I assume he wasn't totally surprised, so this is still round 1? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Second Wis ST: 18

[[ Thanks, though I must admit, his actions are likely to be identical either way!

[[I gave the Advantage because, even though the save is defined as a Wisdom save, the attack is defined as a ray. To me, this means a Dexterity Save makes more sense. And, since you had Brand feeling trepidatious about talking to the creature, I decided he was prepared to Dodge (i.e., Do the Dodge action for his Action) like he did earlier; the Dodge action gives Advantage to Dexterity Saves.]]

Probably need a description re Brands location in relation to Adzo and the two means of egress, as well as distances etc.

[[I would like to give you a map, but I can't at the moment because I have preparation for a tabletop game I am running tomorrow night.]]

- Distancle to hole in wall and (presumed) hole in roof? He tried to get out of sight of the hold, so I assume he is against the wall near the hole?

[[Brand is 15' from the hole in the roof and 35' from the presumed hatch in the roof.]]

- Distance to hole in floor?

[[Brand is 15' to the hole leading back down into the washroom. He is about 30' from hole leading down into the neighbour's house.]]

- Position of Azo

[[Adzo is 10' from Brand within the same roof space.]]

How big is Adzo?]]

[[The main part of Adzo is spherical and about 8" in diameter and the four eye stalks about 6" long.]]

[[ Also, I assume he wasn't totally surprised, so this is still round 1? ]]

[[Based on the above, we will now go to Round #2

Adzo's Initiative: 6

It is Brand's move.]]

[[ Does Brand get a move or action or bonus action in round 1?  Confused, mainly.

Edit: Reason for confusion...I thought Adzo would get first action as per our previous discussion, then Initiative happens and either Brand gets his move, or Adzon completes his, then Adzo/Brand does their move ... then round one ends. This seems only a slight modification to the RAW for the purpose of (reasonably) allowing a 'suprise' action. ]]

No map needed so long as there is no major misunderstanding I make!]]

[[ Whichever round this is, hopefully round 1 still: ]]

Brand activates the invisibility stone again, then uses his move to run to the hole, levitate down and out the window. If he risks an AOO then he uses his move to get within range Adzo and move around him, and keeps the rest of his move in resevre. He then uses his Bonus action to break away without AOO and drop down (levitating) and out the window, moving to one side of the window, outside. At this point he reassesses the situation, and should have some movement left, I hope.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ Does Brand get a move or action or bonus action in round 1?  Confused, mainly.

[[No. Technically, Brand actually instigated this 'combat' and I decided he held a Dodge as his action to be triggered if Adzo reacted badly. The held Dodge is what gave Brand the Advantage on the Wisdom save. However, as this was a held action, he doesn't get a bonus action in that round.]]

Edit: Reason for confusion...I thought Adzo would get first action as per our previous discussion, then Initiative happens and either Brand gets his move, or Adzon completes his, then Adzo/Brand does their move ... then round one ends. This seems only a slight modification to the RAW for the purpose of (reasonably) allowing a 'suprise' action. ]]

No map needed so long as there is no major misunderstanding I make!]]

[[ Whichever round this is, hopefully round 1 still: ]]

Brand activates the invisibility stone again, then uses his move to run to the hole, levitate down and out the window. If he risks an AOO then he uses his move to get within range Adzo and move around him, and keeps the rest of his move in resevre. He then uses his Bonus action to break away without AOO and drop down (levitating) and out the window, moving to one side of the window, outside. At this point he reassesses the situation, and should have some movement left, I hope.

After using the Stone of Unseeing to become invisible, Brand runs to the access hatch—hearing the ceiling timbers creaking dangerously under his feet—and then levitates down into the washroom where he pushes himself off the wall and out through the window where he uses one hand to pull himself to one side.

[[Brand still has a Bonus Action, but no real movement.]]

What does he see?

[[ Btw... What is tabletop you are running? Wish I was there!

Edit 2: Bonus action will likely be a dash to a roof away from what he fears most! ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

What does he see?

[[ Btw... What is tabletop you are running? Wish I was there!

[[I'm running a scenario in an on-again/off-again superhero, contemporary-setting campaign called SPOT (Special Powers Or Training unit of the Australian Federal Police), which I have converted to D&D 5E rules as an experiment. Basically giving our regular ref. a break for a couple of sessions.]]

Edit 2: Bonus action will likely be a dash to a roof away from what he fears most! ]]

Without taking the time to have a proper look around, all Brand can see is the man with the torch in back yard of the house next door. Melitta and co. are not immediately obvious.

However, from through the window next to him he begins to hear a woman's voice calling "Alaric, Alaric... Alaric, Alaric."

[[ To quote Admiral Akbar: "It's a trap!" ]]

[[ Some questions that I hope he can answer without taking any time:

- is the voice familiar?

- Is there also a body on the ground...that I thought I heard drop?

- How far away is voice? Did the '...' signify passage of time, and was it getting closer? ]]

Brand glances around briefly, then rises up, planning on getting on to the roof, but will adapt his plan based on what he sees on roof as he rises.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ To quote Admiral Akbar: "It's a trap!" ]]

[[ Some questions that I hope he can answer without taking any time:

- is the voice familiar?

- Is there also a body on the ground...that I thought I heard drop?

- How far away is voice? Did the '...' signify passage of time, and was it getting closer? ]]

Brand glances around briefly, then rises up, planning on getting on to the roof, but will adapt his plan based on what he sees on roof as he rises.

[[To find out more Brand would have to use an action, but all he has left in his turn is a Bonus Action, which I will assume he uses to get up to the roof.

However, I'm afraid that is it for tonight. Ciao.]]

[[ OK, night!

Does he really need an action to work out if a voice he heard was familiar, or if it is getting louder between the two times he heard it?

Fair enough re examining the ground etc; body on ground does not really stand out, so natural situational awareness may not apply, and an action to 'search' makes a degree of sense. ]]

And yes, up to roof assuming he does not see a beholder or guard staring in his direction as his head rises above the roof line, then use whatever he has left to move to the 'other' neighbours hours...away from all the action.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ OK, night!

Does he really need an action to work out if a voice he heard was familiar, or if it is getting louder between the two times he heard it?

[[

Retcon: The voice isn't noticeably getting louder.

I am thinking that a Perception check should actually take an Action when done in combat. 

My thinking for this is that: to determine whether something is an illusion, while in combat, requires an Action to investigate what is being seen and determine that it isn't real; activities similar to what Perception checks do.

What I would like to do from now on is that, when in Combat, a character's Passive Perception is used to determine whether they can see, or be aware of, things happening around them. This will allow for a number of things: it will hopefully speed up play because I won't need to ask for a roll, and I can have things happen in the combat that I don't have to give hints about by asking for a Perception check (e.g., a character successfully using the Stealth action) as I can just check their Stealth check against all the relevant participant's Passive Perceptions.

So, in this case, without actually taking the time to listen/look carefully (and spending an Action to do so), Brand does not see a body and cannot recognise the woman's voice, though he did hear it and didn't hear it getting louder because the DC for that was less than his Passive Perception.

]]

Fair enough re examining the ground etc; body on ground does not really stand out, so natural situational awareness may not apply, and an action to 'search' makes a degree of sense. ]]

And yes, up to roof assuming he does not see a beholder or guard staring in his direction as his head rises above the roof line, then use whatever he has left to move to the 'other' neighbours hours...away from all the action.

Brand is now on the roof and has moved someway along it towards the roof of neighbour's house. There was no one waiting for him up on the roof, but as he is moving, he notices (with his Passive Perception) some movement on the roof several houses along in the direction he is moving.

[[It is now Adzo's turn.]]

Brand continues to hear the muffled calls of 'Alaric, Alaric' through the shingles of the roof.

[[It is now Brand's turn again. However, I won't be very active any more today because I need to prepare for tonight and do some work.]]

[[ I am thinking that a Perception check should actually take an Action when done in combat. 

I think this speaks to the heart of passive vs active; I'd say "situational awareness" is passive perception at all times, and applies in both combat and non-combat (though that would cost me XP!). In most cases, Brand should easily detect a voice getting notable closer (barring wind, walls and other factors which clearly apply here). Seeing the body, in the dark, on the ground, not moving, possibly behind bushes etc, might actually require he have time look around, not just scan it -- that also seems reasonable. If, for example, he moved nearer, then passive perception might pick it up....but 30+ feet away, behind a wall...meh.

I think there might be three levels of perception to consider:

- instantaneous situational awareness (passive perception, always on, always updating as scene changes (eg. running down the street))
- taking in a scene (happens over time, but still using passive perception, requires remaining within a scene, but able to be done while doing other things. eg like fighting...one can not fight adequately without a heightened sense of who is doing what and what is where etc). In this instance, Brand probably 'took in the scene' in the roof where he had his action and did quite a lot of his movement, but can not 'take in the scene' again until he has his next turn. The longer one is *in* a scene the more one might take in.
- examining the scene (taking a full action, and building on passive results)

Sherlock Holmes:

- walks into room (passive perception): immediately notices broken furniture, muddy footsteps leading to and from broken windows
- takes in scene: sees the muddy steps are clay, the window was broken from the outside (glass on floor) and some of the furniture has bloodstains
- examines: finds grey hair in the blood on the furniture and ripped cloth and bloodstains on the window (probably one action for each specific item).

What I would like to do from now on is that, when in Combat, a character's Passive Perception is used to determine whether they can see, or be aware of, things happening around them.

That sounds fine, unless as you say, I spend a round doing a search.

As above, I think that's the way it should work all the time. Passive perception should just be 'on' all the time, and when Brand spends time searching. he gets a roll that *may* (50% of the time) provide a better result than he passively has. If he is "being wary" then maybe this equates to walking slower so that his environment is more static and he can  "take in the scene" as he goes, but the necessity to remain in the scene might limit his movement to 30' (or 90' if he is just running in circles!).

It should also be noted that some things need an active search merely because things are physically obscured...they may have a DC5 to discover, but you still need to open the drawer. Shelock Holmes can not enter a room and see the gun in the drawer, but when it is opened it's another matter. I think this is important because it makes 'searching' very  important but also potentially disruptive of an environment.

[[ The move: ]]

[[ I am assuming his 'move' + bonus action is enough to stealthily get to the building on the opposite side of the alley, and that he can see noone on the other building...and I guess also inherenty assuming it's  visible so he can make that assessment.

If my extensive web of assumptions is true, then:]]

Brand spends his action taking listening and watching, trying to determine what is going on around him, then launches himself across the street. [[of course, that depends on hom seeing noone on the other roof, no sign of melitta and co etc etc]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I am thinking that a Perception check should actually take an Action when done in combat. 

I think this speaks to the heart of passive vs active; I'd say "situational awareness" is passive perception at all times, and applies in both combat and non-combat (though that would cost me XP!). In most cases, Brand should easily detect a voice getting notable closer (barring wind, walls and other factors which clearly apply here). Seeing the body, in the dark, on the ground, not moving, possibly behind bushes etc, might actually require he have time look around, not just scan it -- that also seems reasonable. If, for example, he moved nearer, then passive perception might pick it up....but 30+ feet away, behind a wall...meh.

I think there might be three levels of perception to consider:

- instantaneous situational awareness (passive perception, always on, always updating as scene changes (eg. running down the street))
- taking in a scene (happens over time, but still using passive perception, requires remaining within a scene, but able to be done while doing other things. eg like fighting...one can not fight adequately without a heightened sense of who is doing what and what is where etc). In this instance, Brand probably 'took in the scene' in the roof where he had his action and did quite a lot of his movement, but can not 'take in the scene' again until he has his next turn. The longer one is *in* a scene the more one might take in.
- examining the scene (taking a full action, and building on passive results)

Sherlock Holmes:

- walks into room (passive perception): immediately notices broken furniture, muddy footsteps leading to and from broken windows
- takes in scene: sees the muddy steps are clay, the window was broken from the outside (glass on floor) and some of the furniture has bloodstains
- examines: finds grey hair in the blood on the furniture and ripped cloth and bloodstains on the window (probably one action for each specific item).

What I would like to do from now on is that, when in Combat, a character's Passive Perception is used to determine whether they can see, or be aware of, things happening around them.

That sounds fine, unless as you say, I spend a round doing a search.

As above, I think that's the way it should work all the time. Passive perception should just be 'on' all the time, and when Brand spends time searching. he gets a roll that *may* (50% of the time) provide a better result than he passively has. If he is "being wary" then maybe this equates to walking slower so that his environment is more static and he can  "take in the scene" as he goes, but the necessity to remain in the scene might limit his movement to 30' (or 90' if he is just running in circles!).

It should also be noted that some things need an active search merely because things are physically obscured...they may have a DC5 to discover, but you still need to open the drawer. Shelock Holmes can not enter a room and see the gun in the drawer, but when it is opened it's another matter. I think this is important because it makes 'searching' very  important but also potentially disruptive of an environment.

---

 [[I will think about all the above when I have more time.]]

[[ The move: ]]

[[ I am assuming his 'move' + bonus action is enough to stealthily get to the building on the opposite side of the alley, and that he can see noone on the other building...and I guess also inherenty assuming it's  visible so he can make that assessment.

[[Not sure about this. Remember, Brand cannot levitate, be invisible, and use the Stone of Far Reaching for propulsion at the same time, so I don't see how he can cross the distance. Also, it is probably more like 80'–90' to the roof of the building on the other side of the service road (there being no 'alleys' anywhere around and the original map we agreed on being right in terms of structure but not necessarily in scale).]]

[[As an aside, when you say something like 'Brand looks around', I feel obliged as a referee to ask for a Perception check whether or not there is anything to notice or not. To not do so, tells the player information they shouldn't have (i.e., that there is nothing to be concerned about), whereas asking for a Perception check keeps the player guessing and heightens the excitement.]]

If my extensive web of assumptions is true, then:]]

Brand spends his action taking listening and watching, trying to determine what is going on around him, then launches himself across the street. [[of course, that depends on hom seeing noone on the other roof, no sign of melitta and co etc etc]]

[[Make a Perception check, see above.]] 

[[Make a Perception check, see above.]] 

[[ lol ]]

Perception: 20

[[ Edit: I expect to know what they ate for lunch! ]]

[[ Re: crossing to buildings, I'd imagine he'd do a walk/leap and float (30' per round, slowing each round...he's done this a lot before, or leap/float to alley, then rise. Moving roof to roof is kind of his thing, I think. That said, if the roof is 90' away, he probably wouldn't try.]]

 [[I will think about all the above when I have more time.]]

If it helps, a short version that captures what my ramble was trying to achieve is:

• combat and non-combat the same
• spending a short time in a place means only 'situational awareness' happens. This is the 'first impression' and is = (Passive Perception - 5); it would correspond to opening the door and what is seen immediately, or running through a room or down a street (not necessarily in combat).
• spending longer (walking down the street, or through a rooms, or at beginning of second round of combat (assuming movement has been at less than 30'/round, or thing to be perceived has remained within 30'). This is 'absorbing the secone' = Passive Perception
• actively looking/listening (takes an action in combat). This is a roll, and may (50%) produce a better result that passive. 
• Passive perception can not see around corners, inside tents etc, which is why a 'search' action still retains value - something might have a DC of 5 but be in a drawer, or inside a book.
• Passive perception does not require interaction with the environment. Though "Brand picks up a book and notices it's heavier than it should be" would be a good example of passive perception combined with interaction.

This would mean that:

• hurrying through the streets means perception is at (passive -5)
• walking through the streets would be at (passive)
• being wary while slowly walking down the street would be max(passive, roll). ie would never be worse than passive. This would incur a speed penalty, which is probably why guards move slowly when patrolling ;-).
• 1st round of combat in a fresh location would be at (passive -5) (unless taking an action)
• 1st round of combat in a location that you've been in for a round, with combatants who were there already: (passive -5) only applies to new elements (eg. the weird sword that was just drawn)
• 2nd+ round of combat would be at (passive)

....OK my short version is as long as the original.]]

[[Sorry. Busy weekend. With regard to your rules for Perception: they sound okay and fairly comprehensive, but probably hard to implement as the referee can't know what is of interest to the player, would have to take into account the knowledge and proficiencies of the character, and would have to continue to make, and record, decisions (and perhaps rolls) for Difficulty Classes. I can see this being worthwhile in combat, but not in normal play.]]

Brand can see two figures trying to be stealthy as they move along the rooftops away from him. He cannot see details of what they are wearing or carrying because they are well beyond the range of his Darkvision.

From beneath his feet, he can hear the strange voice still calling his name. Although the voice is muffled by the shingle, he believes the voice is supposed to sound like Melitta.

There is no sound coming from the house next door, and the man waiting outside suddenly yells out, "What's happening in there?"

Then a movement catches Brand's eye and he looks down at the yard at his feet to see Melitta come out of hiding and look up at the window he recently passed through and then scan the roof, her eyes passing over him unseeing.

the referee can't know what is of interest to the player,

That's where me saying things like, "Does Brand see any sign of..." come in. Though I do also see me saying, "But why didn't you mention the X, of course I would be interested!"

However, those decisions have to be made by you whenever I roll a dice...so I'm not sure it's any different.

In terms of excitement and interest, pausing mid-narrative to say "Roll perception" is a real downer! I'm happy to only roll when I ask something based on what I have seen dues to passive perception. But, happy to defer to what works best for you...you are doing the hard work.

[[ Move: ]]

Surpirsed, having thought Melitta long gone, Brand pauses mid-flight and tries to suppress the after-effects of the fear that he had previously willingly embraced.

He watches cautiously as events unfold, suspicious of any activity nearby. [[ I assume the two on the roof continue to retreat... ]]

Brand waits, ready to flee, moving up the roof line stealthily and cautiously to get a view of the front of the house, and main street below.

[[ He will not do anything that causes loss of visibility of Melitta ]]