So, I’ve been planning out a very large, late medieval or early Renaissance, City that will be the first Hub in my Campaign. I’m putting in what I think is extraordinary effort towards making this my best Campaign, and really appreciate any help the community has when it comes to the planning and layout of everything within. By that I mean to ask what buildings, streets, and neighborhoods would border others? Where would you expect water ways and canals based on need? What kind of geographical features would have drawn the founders to this site? Below I have a general idea of my current planning. It is not the exhaustive list I currently have, but it is filled with ideas I am 95% committed to.
The City is walled and founded on a river going west to east, that bisects the city and empties out into the Sea. The Royal Palace is situated on what amounts to an island on the east coast, joined to the rest of the city by a massive bridge, with grounds for aristocratic apartments, and sharing the island with the city’s Grandest Church Temple. There are 5 Main Gates on the Walls with 3 major roads leading in.
Inns and Pubs will be found near the City Gates, mostly modest ones.Poor ones would be found in the Slums and Wealthy ones found in the better neighborhoods further in the city.
I am thinking four main plazas.One in the markets; the Old Town Square (with a Bank, maybe even book shops, the bathhouse, a nice Church Temple); the New Town Square (featuring a bigger Bank, nicer shops (fashion), “Public” Pool and Bathhouse, and even a Library).Possibly a smallish Courthouse Square that is adjacent.There could also be a square for public executions. with a nearby large Courthouse, Prison, and Execution Grounds.The execution grounds would likely be on the way to the Palace but not in front of it at all.
Notice Boards and Town Criers would be in the Market and Civic Square
I imagine streets for the various artisans and craftsman (Weapon and Armorer Street by example).Cobblestones for most streets. Likewise one for Butcher Shops, Smokehouses, and Bakers.
Tanneries should be near a relatively small river or canal.
There would be a large Docks on the coast, below the Palace island.
I see the city as having numerous stables, warehouses, and a granary, but I’m thinking there would be nearby farms and gardens that supplemented the intake of foodstuffs from the greater countryside beyond, on the city’s exterior.
Planning out where residences are and the kind of businesses or other buildings they border has been a challenge. I see there being what amounts to a Slums and Rookery (wattle and daub huts, closed in apartments), a more Middle Class level of homes with cottages and even small town houses, and a place for wealthy Merchants and Aristocrats Villas, Estates, and Manors that they keep within the city. I also am set on having a ghetto for Dwarves, Gnomes, and other “Demihumans” (a human pejorative). The city is roughly 65 percent Humans, 25 percent Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Elves, and the remainder being all over the place.
I’m thinking of having a nearby University with a small town that’s grown up around it (ala famous ones in The Witcher and the Kingkiller Chronicles).
As I stated up above, this is not an exhaustive list of all the buildings and sites I have planned but it’s probably more than enough for the OP. So keeping that in mind and reviewing what I’ve given, how might you place the various buildings and neighborhoods / districts? Do you feel it’s important (for any reason) to have hills or plateaus? Should residences have their own groupings or be mixed up almost indiscrimately?
Really look forward to any suggestions or such you can offer. When it comes down to it, this is just the written sketch before I actually start on putting it in a map maker.
The hill or highest plateau may have the High City district where town hall, noble residences, fine stores, high-end lounge and clubs can be found.
The low reach could include the Lower district, the slums, with all the poor, unsavory roomhouse, taverns and shops, black markets and the mud from above, lietrally!
The Middle district would include the market district, the middle class residences, most of the reputable inns, taverns, stores etc.. as well as artisants shops, public bathouses, temples, shrines, magic academy, bard college, library and other places of knowledge.
Last but not least could be the Undercity, where the sewers are located, with the occasional vermine, goblinoids and thieves and cuthroats hiding under the city. There could be also places for sects and evil shrines to be secretly found etc
Read up on the structure of medieval London. That helped me a lot. Examples: Tanners would be way out of town + downstream. Some Roads were even named after the crafts and businesses that settled there, like "The Ropery"
I’ve actually very much been looking around for how cities in that time period were structured, laid out, and organized. Mostly I just found out what kind of components there were, the general life and society, and got the occasionally useful overhead map (that unfortunately lacked a legend). Do you have a link, a site, or a solid Google search?
Thank you. I’m not so devoted I plan to do extensive library research or get a degree on the subject. (I’ve already learned as much about Medieval sanitation as I ever care to)
i just like medieval english history for the political and economical shenanigans that were involved. Also read some novels that played in london, and thought ok, lets dive. XD
The area round the docks typically tends to be one of less savoury areas: lots of warehouses, chandlers, poor accommodation for casual dock workers, cheap taverns (and other places of entertainment) catering for sailors on shore leave.
How much external threat does the city experience? If relatively infrequent, then it will tend to spill out of the city walls. Aristocrats may well have country estates, especially upstream of the city. In the city, the aristocratic houses may be up on higher ground, in the fresher air. However, in Elizabethan London, many had houses on the riverside to benefit from the river acting as a more convenient thoroughfare than the crowded, filthy streets.
A good approach to creating a “realistic” settlement is to sketch out the underlying terrain first: the course of the river, the high ground, low ground, any cliffs, swamps. That will start to “design” your city for you. That defensible higher ground partly surrounded by a bend in the river would be the natural site for a castle. A sheltered bay in the river may be best for the port. What about the wider area? Where would the roads run to and from? Other areas would then start to form up around those.
I was certainly thinking of having the bottom part of the city be the lower income side (mostly) and having a definite elevation on much of the north side. Honestly, the biggest problem with these issues of geography is keeping in mind just how much space the city really covers. Certainly the upper east side would be on a rise above the rest of the city, to connect to the palace. I feel like having a few larger hills would make sense in the city, though I’ll probably need a visual sketch before I can commit to where. That actually brings me to a question: if I wanted to share the city here on DDB for review, what’s the best option for doing so? I’m not sure I would as there’s a whole community for Inkarnate users I’ll want to check in with first, but just covering the bases.
I was certainly thinking of having the bottom part of the city be the lower income side (mostly) and having a definite elevation on much of the north side. Honestly, the biggest problem with these issues of geography is keeping in mind just how much space the city really covers. Certainly the upper east side would be on a rise above the rest of the city, to connect to the palace. I feel like having a few larger hills would make sense in the city, though I’ll probably need a visual sketch before I can commit to where. That actually brings me to a question: if I wanted to share the city here on DDB for review, what’s the best option for doing so? I’m not sure I would as there’s a whole community for Inkarnate users I’ll want to check in with first, but just covering the bases.
I'd say make another post on this forum once you're generally happy with it and had a couple small bits and bobs you needed help with (probably not geographical as that is what the inkarnate people would be most likely to help with). Of course, consult whoever you do or don't want.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Late medieval cities were often based off of earlier medieval cities, which were based off of the Roman plan for a city. I would personally start with that foundation of the Roman city, and build on top of that. After all, that’s what they did.
I was certainly thinking of having the bottom part of the city be the lower income side (mostly) and having a definite elevation on much of the north side. Honestly, the biggest problem with these issues of geography is keeping in mind just how much space the city really covers. Certainly the upper east side would be on a rise above the rest of the city, to connect to the palace. I feel like having a few larger hills would make sense in the city, though I’ll probably need a visual sketch before I can commit to where. That actually brings me to a question: if I wanted to share the city here on DDB for review, what’s the best option for doing so? I’m not sure I would as there’s a whole community for Inkarnate users I’ll want to check in with first, but just covering the bases.
I'd say make another post on this forum once you're generally happy with it and had a couple small bits and bobs you needed help with (probably not geographical as that is what the inkarnate people would be most likely to help with). Of course, consult whoever you do or don't want.
No sure, I get that, but would I use a hosting site and, if so, which one? Is there a better option?
"Late Medieval City Planning" is something of an oxymoron, medieval cities tended to grow organically, but there's basic principles to keep in mind.
Cities are almost always founded around trade hubs. In the case of your described city, assuming the river is navigable, it's a natural port that's also a transshipment point for river traffic, so that need is resolved. It's likely that there's also demand to cross the river, or you wouldn't have city on both sides. So, it's worth thinking about the evolution of the city
At the start, you probably have a port (suitable for transfer of goods from river boats to ships and vice versa) and a ferry. Around the port grow things that naturally service a port:
Businesses that cater to ships and boats, such as shipbuilding, sailmaking, ropemaking, etc.
Businesses that cater to the crew of ships and boats, such as taverns, gambling dens, and brothels.
A military presence of some sort, to protect and tax trade (the weighting of those two objectives can vary extensively)
In addition, around the ferries you get businesses that cater to land trade.
At some point, someone (likely whoever is taxing trade) builds a bridge to increase traffic. I'm going to assume that occurs pretty early, because we've specified one city, not two twin cities.
From that point, growth tends to be organic
Businesses that cater to ships will prefer to be near the port. Note, however, that better locations will be more expensive. Note that port areas, due to a high number of transients, are often high crime, but this doesn't necessarily mean poor.
Businesses that cater to land traffic (cartwrights, farriers, etc) will prefer to be near the road. Again, better locations will be more expensive.
Businesses with substantial material inputs will prefer to be near the supply of those materials (this may conflict with the above). This tends to produce distinct districts (if you produce leather goods, you might want to be close to a tannery, and so on).
The fortress will almost certainly be built on a hill of some sort.
People will prefer to live in places that have lower transit times to their places of work. Again, better locations are more expensive.
People will prefer to live separated from unpleasant neighbors (many businesses are sources of noise and bad smells -- e.g. the tannery mentioned above). This often conflicts with (5). This often leads to distinct wealthy neighborhoods. Hills are generally better (if more expensive) places to build on, so putting your wealthy neighborhoods on hills is common.
If you want to place things like slums... bear the above principles in mind and find the least desirable places.
Note that most medieval cities are quite small by modern standards, if your city is a mile across and contains 25,000 people it would be quite large, though larger cities did exist.
Is this a “new” city, or an old city? Most cities in the late medieval Keri or or early Renaissance period were already old by then. Either that or they were built on top of old cities. I would plan a smaller town, and then imagine how people added on to it over the decades or centuries until it became a large city.
I agree that most medieval cities were quite small by modern standards but as I stated this is a city mid way between the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance in effect. I also agree that planning isn’t the real word to go with but coming up with a short and to the point thread title didn’t really work with, “How do you organize the organic growth of a very early Renaissance City?” I think Medieval London had around 80,000 or 100,000 residents max. My own personal reviews led me to consider mainland European Cities more strongly, particularly Paris and Florence. 500,000 is obviously ridiculous except maybe for Constantinople (Paris was expected to average ~250,000 roughly). I definitely appreciate your notes on placement of households. I have a lot of blurry visual images of the city, and I’m starting to think the best way to place residences is by setting up the businesses first. My mental sketchbook very apparently has limits. Out of curiosity, what would you see being situated nearest the city walls interior?
@AWierdPotato I see the era best suited to visualize the city as being very late Medieval, very early Renaissance. I also took into account the idea of the city evolving from a small town to a large metropolis, thus placing what I have named the Old Town Square (better names to come) a ways off the current Town Square, closer to where the center of Town might have originally been. I’m also trying to figure out how many plazas you might expect to find in some of these cities.
P.S., If you’ve read The Name of the Wind, I feel that the cities described therein are a bit too far along the timeline, while those in The Witcher Books and Witcher 3 are perfect.
P.P.S. I’ve been doing some more reading online and I definitely think half a million citizens is too much, I’ll probably cut it in half. Or maybe set it at ~350,000. I just read that that was the population for Paris in the 1500’s.
I would cut even that down. Wikipedia places the population of Paris in 1500 at no more than 150,000. Another site ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1021988/thirty-largest-cities-western-europe-1500/ ) lists a bunch of European cities populations for 1500 and has Paris at 225,000 which I would put as an absolute max. At the same time London had a population of no more than 50,000. If this is the Great city) of your campaign the. Yes a population over 100k is not unreasonable but anything over 200k. The only “European” city of the dark, middle and renaissance periods to have a population in excess of 250k was Constantinople. Which may have reached populations as high as 500k several times from 370AD to its fall in the 1500’s. ( it also had periods as low as 70k and possibly less). Cities don’t produce much food so you have to have a major transportation network to bring food in regularly. yes start with your terrain that always sets the grounds for the design of the city, then water and food - where is it coming from and how is it getting there? Then businesses and finally lodgings. In many cases think multi story - living quarters above shops/workshops. Noisy and smelly industries are going to be outside or on the edges. (Weaponsmithies inside the walls, blacksmiths outside, tanning and dyeing outside and downstream (they stink to high heaven). If it’s a port city (sea/ocean) it needs a protected harbor, riverine ports are typically where streams meet (St. Louis, Pittsburg) or where navigability ends (Albany NY) so set your topography accordingly.
Two points to consider that can substantially reshape cities:
Walled cities are built for a specific size. Successful cities usually outgrow those walls, at which point you either have a bunch of stuff outside the walls, or you build a new wall (this might result in demolishing the old wall -- or it might be that the old wall marks the old city which is the home of old money).
Medieval cities were quite flammable and lacked fire departments. When a large fire breaks out, frequently the stuff built in the ashes is very different from what was there before (Nero didn't fiddle when Rome burned, but he did take advantage of it to build a palace, institute building codes, and do city planning).
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So, I’ve been planning out a very large, late medieval or early Renaissance, City that will be the first Hub in my Campaign. I’m putting in what I think is extraordinary effort towards making this my best Campaign, and really appreciate any help the community has when it comes to the planning and layout of everything within. By that I mean to ask what buildings, streets, and neighborhoods would border others? Where would you expect water ways and canals based on need? What kind of geographical features would have drawn the founders to this site? Below I have a general idea of my current planning. It is not the exhaustive list I currently have, but it is filled with ideas I am 95% committed to.
The City is walled and founded on a river going west to east, that bisects the city and empties out into the Sea. The Royal Palace is situated on what amounts to an island on the east coast, joined to the rest of the city by a massive bridge, with grounds for aristocratic apartments, and sharing the island with the city’s Grandest Church Temple. There are 5 Main Gates on the Walls with 3 major roads leading in.
As I stated up above, this is not an exhaustive list of all the buildings and sites I have planned but it’s probably more than enough for the OP. So keeping that in mind and reviewing what I’ve given, how might you place the various buildings and neighborhoods / districts? Do you feel it’s important (for any reason) to have hills or plateaus? Should residences have their own groupings or be mixed up almost indiscrimately?
Really look forward to any suggestions or such you can offer. When it comes down to it, this is just the written sketch before I actually start on putting it in a map maker.
The hill or highest plateau may have the High City district where town hall, noble residences, fine stores, high-end lounge and clubs can be found.
The low reach could include the Lower district, the slums, with all the poor, unsavory roomhouse, taverns and shops, black markets and the mud from above, lietrally!
The Middle district would include the market district, the middle class residences, most of the reputable inns, taverns, stores etc.. as well as artisants shops, public bathouses, temples, shrines, magic academy, bard college, library and other places of knowledge.
Last but not least could be the Undercity, where the sewers are located, with the occasional vermine, goblinoids and thieves and cuthroats hiding under the city. There could be also places for sects and evil shrines to be secretly found etc
There’s 100% going to be an anachronistic sewer system of labyrinthine proportions, I promised myself that.
Read up on the structure of medieval London. That helped me a lot. Examples: Tanners would be way out of town + downstream. Some Roads were even named after the crafts and businesses that settled there, like "The Ropery"
I’ve actually very much been looking around for how cities in that time period were structured, laid out, and organized. Mostly I just found out what kind of components there were, the general life and society, and got the occasionally useful overhead map (that unfortunately lacked a legend). Do you have a link, a site, or a solid Google search?
Will look if i find something online, got my knowledge mostly from older (non english) history books.
Thank you. I’m not so devoted I plan to do extensive library research or get a degree on the subject. (I’ve already learned as much about Medieval sanitation as I ever care to)
i just like medieval english history for the political and economical shenanigans that were involved. Also read some novels that played in london, and thought ok, lets dive. XD
The area round the docks typically tends to be one of less savoury areas: lots of warehouses, chandlers, poor accommodation for casual dock workers, cheap taverns (and other places of entertainment) catering for sailors on shore leave.
How much external threat does the city experience? If relatively infrequent, then it will tend to spill out of the city walls. Aristocrats may well have country estates, especially upstream of the city. In the city, the aristocratic houses may be up on higher ground, in the fresher air. However, in Elizabethan London, many had houses on the riverside to benefit from the river acting as a more convenient thoroughfare than the crowded, filthy streets.
A good approach to creating a “realistic” settlement is to sketch out the underlying terrain first: the course of the river, the high ground, low ground, any cliffs, swamps. That will start to “design” your city for you. That defensible higher ground partly surrounded by a bend in the river would be the natural site for a castle. A sheltered bay in the river may be best for the port. What about the wider area? Where would the roads run to and from? Other areas would then start to form up around those.
I was certainly thinking of having the bottom part of the city be the lower income side (mostly) and having a definite elevation on much of the north side. Honestly, the biggest problem with these issues of geography is keeping in mind just how much space the city really covers. Certainly the upper east side would be on a rise above the rest of the city, to connect to the palace. I feel like having a few larger hills would make sense in the city, though I’ll probably need a visual sketch before I can commit to where. That actually brings me to a question: if I wanted to share the city here on DDB for review, what’s the best option for doing so? I’m not sure I would as there’s a whole community for Inkarnate users I’ll want to check in with first, but just covering the bases.
I'd say make another post on this forum once you're generally happy with it and had a couple small bits and bobs you needed help with (probably not geographical as that is what the inkarnate people would be most likely to help with). Of course, consult whoever you do or don't want.
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Late medieval cities were often based off of earlier medieval cities, which were based off of the Roman plan for a city. I would personally start with that foundation of the Roman city, and build on top of that. After all, that’s what they did.
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No sure, I get that, but would I use a hosting site and, if so, which one? Is there a better option?
"Late Medieval City Planning" is something of an oxymoron, medieval cities tended to grow organically, but there's basic principles to keep in mind.
Cities are almost always founded around trade hubs. In the case of your described city, assuming the river is navigable, it's a natural port that's also a transshipment point for river traffic, so that need is resolved. It's likely that there's also demand to cross the river, or you wouldn't have city on both sides. So, it's worth thinking about the evolution of the city
At the start, you probably have a port (suitable for transfer of goods from river boats to ships and vice versa) and a ferry. Around the port grow things that naturally service a port:
In addition, around the ferries you get businesses that cater to land trade.
At some point, someone (likely whoever is taxing trade) builds a bridge to increase traffic. I'm going to assume that occurs pretty early, because we've specified one city, not two twin cities.
From that point, growth tends to be organic
Note that most medieval cities are quite small by modern standards, if your city is a mile across and contains 25,000 people it would be quite large, though larger cities did exist.
Is this a “new” city, or an old city? Most cities in the late medieval Keri or or early Renaissance period were already old by then. Either that or they were built on top of old cities. I would plan a smaller town, and then imagine how people added on to it over the decades or centuries until it became a large city.
I agree that most medieval cities were quite small by modern standards but as I stated this is a city mid way between the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance in effect. I also agree that planning isn’t the real word to go with but coming up with a short and to the point thread title didn’t really work with, “How do you organize the organic growth of a very early Renaissance City?”
I think Medieval London had around 80,000 or 100,000 residents max. My own personal reviews led me to consider mainland European Cities more strongly, particularly Paris and Florence. 500,000 is obviously ridiculous except maybe for Constantinople (Paris was expected to average ~250,000 roughly). I definitely appreciate your notes on placement of households. I have a lot of blurry visual images of the city, and I’m starting to think the best way to place residences is by setting up the businesses first. My mental sketchbook very apparently has limits. Out of curiosity, what would you see being situated nearest the city walls interior?
@AWierdPotato I see the era best suited to visualize the city as being very late Medieval, very early Renaissance. I also took into account the idea of the city evolving from a small town to a large metropolis, thus placing what I have named the Old Town Square (better names to come) a ways off the current Town Square, closer to where the center of Town might have originally been. I’m also trying to figure out how many plazas you might expect to find in some of these cities.
P.S., If you’ve read The Name of the Wind, I feel that the cities described therein are a bit too far along the timeline, while those in The Witcher Books and Witcher 3 are perfect.
P.P.S. I’ve been doing some more reading online and I definitely think half a million citizens is too much, I’ll probably cut it in half. Or maybe set it at ~350,000. I just read that that was the population for Paris in the 1500’s.
I would cut even that down. Wikipedia places the population of Paris in 1500 at no more than 150,000. Another site ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1021988/thirty-largest-cities-western-europe-1500/ ) lists a bunch of European cities populations for 1500 and has Paris at 225,000 which I would put as an absolute max. At the same time London had a population of no more than 50,000. If this is the Great city) of your campaign the. Yes a population over 100k is not unreasonable but anything over 200k. The only “European” city of the dark, middle and renaissance periods to have a population in excess of 250k was Constantinople. Which may have reached populations as high as 500k several times from 370AD to its fall in the 1500’s. ( it also had periods as low as 70k and possibly less). Cities don’t produce much food so you have to have a major transportation network to bring food in regularly.
yes start with your terrain that always sets the grounds for the design of the city, then water and food - where is it coming from and how is it getting there? Then businesses and finally lodgings. In many cases think multi story - living quarters above shops/workshops. Noisy and smelly industries are going to be outside or on the edges. (Weaponsmithies inside the walls, blacksmiths outside, tanning and dyeing outside and downstream (they stink to high heaven). If it’s a port city (sea/ocean) it needs a protected harbor, riverine ports are typically where streams meet (St. Louis, Pittsburg) or where navigability ends (Albany NY) so set your topography accordingly.
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Two points to consider that can substantially reshape cities: