Help me DMs: what monsters have you found to be difficult to run optimally? For example: if you don’t run an Archmage in a very specific way, it will not be CR 12. Do you have other examples?
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Another example is regen monsters who rely on getting a few rounds of healing to meat their challenge rating. They similarly need space but can be even harder as they need to dip in and out of combat this
To me, any monster with 4+ abilities to choose from starts being a fair challenge to properly manage. The more options for attacks and such a monster has, the tougher it will likely be to run them effectively. As pointed out, caster types can be among the worst to try and manage, as giving them TOO much combat avoidance can turn them into party wrecking machines and not giving them any ability/chance to avoid damage can turn the encounter into a cake walk.
I tend to try and use abilities and skills of my monsters that seem logical at the time, from the monster perspective. This might be launching a spell at a character who has resistance to the damage type that the monster may not be aware of. It might be focusing on stifling a spellcasting character to prevent them from using their own magic. I have used monsters who have healing to heal at, what ends up being the "wrong time" giving the party an edge (especially if they are struggling a bit) by "wasting" a round of damage that could have taken out 1 or more party members. All told, a monster with a wide array of abilities and spells can be difficult to run effectively, but if you're paying close attention to the fight, it can also open up opportunities to have the fight swing, making it tougher when the party is dominating, or easier of they are being hammered. More options, while often adding difficulty, also give you more chances to ahve the fight run and end, in the way YOU intended it, without the need to flub a roll here and there.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Anything with a spell list - I find I end up starting to pick one, and then becoming flustered as spells take time, and just using the most powerful spell on their list that I know offhand.
When I homebrew, I aim to give spell monsters the spells as abilities, baked into the statblock, for ease of running. I tend to handwave Prestidigitation and such as "If I want them to do it, they can". So much easier to pick what they do if you have the control and attack spells in the block, even if you still have a spell list of less combatty spells to peruse in between.
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
One of the most difficult monster i ran recently was a Carrionette as the uses of it's abilities involved swapping soul with target and in order to run this in most optimal way, i whispered to the player instructions to keep playing his character in most basic fashion, toss the construct in a closet so it's not destroyed during combat and tag along with the party. It gave place to very fun roleplay when they returned to town's inn as the PC would behave strangely, and would not speak and act the usual way and it was later check at the local temple and revealed to be possessed and restored with the use of magic.
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
Well, the thing about CR is is can only ever be a rough guide. Depending on party composition, how late in the PCs adventuring day, the terrain, what magic items they do or don’t have, annd a lot of other factors, any given creature’s effectiveness can vary widely.
For that archmage, for example, putting them against a party with a bunch of casters who can counterspell, he’s going to have problems. Or against, say an ancients paladin giving everyone a save bonus and resistance to damage from spells. But put him against people with limited casting, let him fly about 35 feet up and just rain down cones of cold and lightning bolts, and he’ll be much tougher. Also, not sure how you ran it, but they are not meant to be solo enemies. They only get one turn, no legendary actions or lair actions. So they go once, then 4-5 PCs just beat on him. And if he’s still alive he can go once more, but I’d be surprised to see it reach a 3rd round as a solo enemy.
You really need to consider the creature’s abilities compared to the PCs. And even then it’s not going to be perfect. Personally, I find CR more a gauge of power compared to other monsters than it works compared to the PCs
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
Well, the thing about CR is is can only ever be a rough guide. Depending on party composition, how late in the PCs adventuring day, the terrain, what magic items they do or don’t have, annd a lot of other factors, any given creature’s effectiveness can vary widely.
For that archmage, for example, putting them against a party with a bunch of casters who can counterspell, he’s going to have problems. Or against, say an ancients paladin giving everyone a save bonus and resistance to damage from spells. But put him against people with limited casting, let him fly about 35 feet up and just rain down cones of cold and lightning bolts, and he’ll be much tougher. Also, not sure how you ran it, but they are not meant to be solo enemies. They only get one turn, no legendary actions or lair actions. So they go once, then 4-5 PCs just beat on him. And if he’s still alive he can go once more, but I’d be surprised to see it reach a 3rd round as a solo enemy.
You really need to consider the creature’s abilities compared to the PCs. And even then it’s not going to be perfect. Personally, I find CR more a gauge of power compared to other monsters than it works compared to the PCs
This is not an answer to the question, nor is it a helpful tangent.
One that's a real pain is the ghost. It's not too bad for the most part, but if you actually succeed on possession, you'll need to know what weapon and armor proficiencies it had when it was alive. Successive possessions can then quickly lead to a TPK.
It's not hard to make a archmage be CR 12. You're allowed to replace spells on a creature with equivalent spells they might know, so just swap time stop for meteor swarm.
It's not hard to make a archmage be CR 12. You're allowed to replace spells on a creature with equivalent spells they might know, so just swap time stop for meteor swarm.
It's not hard to make a archmage be CR 12. You're allowed to replace spells on a creature with equivalent spells they might know, so just swap time stop for meteor swarm.
Seriously missing the point here.
Not really. The reason the archmage is hard to make worth its CR is because with its default spell selection it just isn't CR 12, it's around CR 9.
For me, the longer the statblock the harder it is to run. Too many things they could do leads to too much time deciding what they’re gonna do. I also frequently find myself forgetting about Legendary and Lair actions all the time too.
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
It's not hard to make a archmage be CR 12. You're allowed to replace spells on a creature with equivalent spells they might know, so just swap time stop for meteor swarm.
Seriously missing the point here.
Not really. The reason the archmage is hard to make worth its CR is because with its default spell selection it just isn't CR 12, it's around CR 9.
you did clarify early on, Bruce K, that this was a matter of keeping monsters on track with their stated CR. are you looking for anecdotes on that topic? or quirky, overlooked monsters?
you might try turning your phone sideways and giving an upvote to the posts that are in line with your expectations.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
Well, the thing about CR is is can only ever be a rough guide. Depending on party composition, how late in the PCs adventuring day, the terrain, what magic items they do or don’t have, annd a lot of other factors, any given creature’s effectiveness can vary widely.
For that archmage, for example, putting them against a party with a bunch of casters who can counterspell, he’s going to have problems. Or against, say an ancients paladin giving everyone a save bonus and resistance to damage from spells. But put him against people with limited casting, let him fly about 35 feet up and just rain down cones of cold and lightning bolts, and he’ll be much tougher. Also, not sure how you ran it, but they are not meant to be solo enemies. They only get one turn, no legendary actions or lair actions. So they go once, then 4-5 PCs just beat on him. And if he’s still alive he can go once more, but I’d be surprised to see it reach a 3rd round as a solo enemy.
You really need to consider the creature’s abilities compared to the PCs. And even then it’s not going to be perfect. Personally, I find CR more a gauge of power compared to other monsters than it works compared to the PCs
This is not an answer to the question, nor is it a helpful tangent.
Your initial question said "if you don't run them a certain way..." This describes a couple scenarios where running a monster differently, under different situations, allows them to better reflect the CR. The monster you stated was used as an example and tactics to address a melee-heavy or resistant group. The question, as posed, seems to be answered by this, so maybe it wasn't presented well enough to really get your meaning across.
The example shows how a CR 12 monster can appear pretty easy to one group, if played a certain way, while the next group might have a difficult time with it, being played differently. The guidance to play the monsters to better exploit your party's weakness was more a blanket suggestion to get the most bang for the buck out of CR.
Now if you want to know WHY CR turns to crab at around 4-5, that is an entirely different question. At 4-5, the PC's are getting some serious upgrades to skills and abilities and that skews the CR a bit, meaning you HAVE to optimize your monsters' actions to give ANY hope of presenting a challenge to the party. CR, as stated, is a good guide for starting to search for monsters, but reading through their stat blocks, if you understand the game mechanics well enough, will show you some monsters with a relatively low CR that could pose major problems for your group because of their abilities. Exampled in the above is a flying wizard raining hellfire down on a melee party with limited ranged options. Major challenge, but if the party is magic heavy, to counterspell and attack effectively at range, not so tough a nut to crack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I’m with you ‘Sposta - the longer the stat block the more problems as there can be way to much to keep track of - you pretty much have to have a preplanned of what, when and why.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Help me DMs: what monsters have you found to be difficult to run optimally?
For example: if you don’t run an Archmage in a very specific way, it will not be CR 12.
Do you have other examples?
Do you mean more how to run the monsters from a technical standpoint, or more how to keep the actual CR in line with the stated CR? Because those are actually pretty different questions.
Allot of the casters and other glass cannons have the same problem of either killing party members first turn or dieing first turn. This includes
Another example is regen monsters who rely on getting a few rounds of healing to meat their challenge rating. They similarly need space but can be even harder as they need to dip in and out of combat this
To me, any monster with 4+ abilities to choose from starts being a fair challenge to properly manage. The more options for attacks and such a monster has, the tougher it will likely be to run them effectively. As pointed out, caster types can be among the worst to try and manage, as giving them TOO much combat avoidance can turn them into party wrecking machines and not giving them any ability/chance to avoid damage can turn the encounter into a cake walk.
I tend to try and use abilities and skills of my monsters that seem logical at the time, from the monster perspective. This might be launching a spell at a character who has resistance to the damage type that the monster may not be aware of. It might be focusing on stifling a spellcasting character to prevent them from using their own magic. I have used monsters who have healing to heal at, what ends up being the "wrong time" giving the party an edge (especially if they are struggling a bit) by "wasting" a round of damage that could have taken out 1 or more party members. All told, a monster with a wide array of abilities and spells can be difficult to run effectively, but if you're paying close attention to the fight, it can also open up opportunities to have the fight swing, making it tougher when the party is dominating, or easier of they are being hammered. More options, while often adding difficulty, also give you more chances to ahve the fight run and end, in the way YOU intended it, without the need to flub a roll here and there.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Anything with a spell list - I find I end up starting to pick one, and then becoming flustered as spells take time, and just using the most powerful spell on their list that I know offhand.
When I homebrew, I aim to give spell monsters the spells as abilities, baked into the statblock, for ease of running. I tend to handwave Prestidigitation and such as "If I want them to do it, they can". So much easier to pick what they do if you have the control and attack spells in the block, even if you still have a spell list of less combatty spells to peruse in between.
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Explicitly #2, but I assume that option 1 is a component of #2
One of the most difficult monster i ran recently was a Carrionette as the uses of it's abilities involved swapping soul with target and in order to run this in most optimal way, i whispered to the player instructions to keep playing his character in most basic fashion, toss the construct in a closet so it's not destroyed during combat and tag along with the party. It gave place to very fun roleplay when they returned to town's inn as the PC would behave strangely, and would not speak and act the usual way and it was later check at the local temple and revealed to be possessed and restored with the use of magic.
Well, the thing about CR is is can only ever be a rough guide. Depending on party composition, how late in the PCs adventuring day, the terrain, what magic items they do or don’t have, annd a lot of other factors, any given creature’s effectiveness can vary widely.
For that archmage, for example, putting them against a party with a bunch of casters who can counterspell, he’s going to have problems. Or against, say an ancients paladin giving everyone a save bonus and resistance to damage from spells.
But put him against people with limited casting, let him fly about 35 feet up and just rain down cones of cold and lightning bolts, and he’ll be much tougher. Also, not sure how you ran it, but they are not meant to be solo enemies. They only get one turn, no legendary actions or lair actions. So they go once, then 4-5 PCs just beat on him. And if he’s still alive he can go once more, but I’d be surprised to see it reach a 3rd round as a solo enemy.
You really need to consider the creature’s abilities compared to the PCs. And even then it’s not going to be perfect.
Personally, I find CR more a gauge of power compared to other monsters than it works compared to the PCs
This is not an answer to the question, nor is it a helpful tangent.
One that's a real pain is the ghost. It's not too bad for the most part, but if you actually succeed on possession, you'll need to know what weapon and armor proficiencies it had when it was alive. Successive possessions can then quickly lead to a TPK.
It's not hard to make a archmage be CR 12. You're allowed to replace spells on a creature with equivalent spells they might know, so just swap time stop for meteor swarm.
Seriously missing the point here.
Not really. The reason the archmage is hard to make worth its CR is because with its default spell selection it just isn't CR 12, it's around CR 9.
For me, the longer the statblock the harder it is to run. Too many things they could do leads to too much time deciding what they’re gonna do. I also frequently find myself forgetting about Legendary and Lair actions all the time too.
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you did clarify early on, Bruce K, that this was a matter of keeping monsters on track with their stated CR. are you looking for anecdotes on that topic? or quirky, overlooked monsters?
you might try turning your phone sideways and giving an upvote to the posts that are in line with your expectations.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Your initial question said "if you don't run them a certain way..." This describes a couple scenarios where running a monster differently, under different situations, allows them to better reflect the CR. The monster you stated was used as an example and tactics to address a melee-heavy or resistant group. The question, as posed, seems to be answered by this, so maybe it wasn't presented well enough to really get your meaning across.
The example shows how a CR 12 monster can appear pretty easy to one group, if played a certain way, while the next group might have a difficult time with it, being played differently. The guidance to play the monsters to better exploit your party's weakness was more a blanket suggestion to get the most bang for the buck out of CR.
Now if you want to know WHY CR turns to crab at around 4-5, that is an entirely different question. At 4-5, the PC's are getting some serious upgrades to skills and abilities and that skews the CR a bit, meaning you HAVE to optimize your monsters' actions to give ANY hope of presenting a challenge to the party. CR, as stated, is a good guide for starting to search for monsters, but reading through their stat blocks, if you understand the game mechanics well enough, will show you some monsters with a relatively low CR that could pose major problems for your group because of their abilities. Exampled in the above is a flying wizard raining hellfire down on a melee party with limited ranged options. Major challenge, but if the party is magic heavy, to counterspell and attack effectively at range, not so tough a nut to crack.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I’m with you ‘Sposta - the longer the stat block the more problems as there can be way to much to keep track of - you pretty much have to have a preplanned of what, when and why.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.