Im running a 3e module right now (that im converting to 5e) and having trouble coming up with a suitable alternative to the following. The party is going to be level 18 at the point where they have to destroy a temple of necromantic energy, which gains its power from a 40 foot-radius floating sphere of necromantic energy. The temple itself is also sentient. Now the orb is described by the module by being able to be destroyed by turning checks (3e stuff that doesn't work the same in 5e) Now I need to find an alternative way that makes it hard but not impossible to destroy the orb, and in turn the tower. Of cause, a Wish spell could do the job but this would be one of the extraordinary uses of wish, and in fact, due to multiclassing the party won't be getting access to said spell.
Text from the module: Positive Energy: Pouring enough positive energy into the negative energy orb destroys it. This requires making enough successful turning checks (high enough to affect a 20-HD undead) to deal 100 HD worth of turning damage.
Im a bit stumped here on how to go about this so any suggestions would be appreciated.
Do they have access to radiant damage? That could work as a substitute.
As for how much, figure out how many turns it would take under the 3rd ed mechanics, and calibrate for that. (I assume there's something dangerous going on while they do it. If there isn't, timing doesn't matter.)
Thats a good idea. It would seem that most likely for level 18 cleric doing turn undead it would take around 5 - 6 rounds to be able to destroy the orb, assuming all check succeed. So if changing it to radiant damage being dealt to it, whatever 6 rounds worth of damage would look like. Maybe 500 hp worth of damage needs to be done, only taking damage from radiant
I doubt the players will simply try to start blasting the orb, it will most likely be a thing they try and deal with after killing the BBEG inside the temple first. Which then means time wont really be a problem, it will just be for the players to figure out how to destroy the orb.
In place of turning checks, have the cleric (and/or paladin) use their channel divinity to represent the positive energy, but not just once. They have to keep it going. You could say it uses their concentration, and they have to keep it up for 5 rounds, or however long. The character won’t be able to use concentration spells, but they will be able to do other things, so at least the player isn’t just saying, I keep channelling divinity, and that’s their whole turn.
And the temple minions will know who is harming their master and attack the cleric, trying to force them to lose their concentration. So the rest of the party has to run interference and try and minimize the number of times the cleric takes damage.
Yeah I like this idea more than just plain damage, allows the players to focus on the orb or go for the BBEG, if they can destroy the orb before the BBEG fight then that fight will be alot easier. Most likely attacking the orb will have the temple "which is sentient" lash out and alert defenders of the attempt from the players.
Thats a good idea. It would seem that most likely for level 18 cleric doing turn undead it would take around 5 - 6 rounds to be able to destroy the orb, assuming all check succeed. So if changing it to radiant damage being dealt to it, whatever 6 rounds worth of damage would look like. Maybe 500 hp worth of damage needs to be done, only taking damage from radiant
I doubt the players will simply try to start blasting the orb, it will most likely be a thing they try and deal with after killing the BBEG inside the temple first. Which then means time wont really be a problem, it will just be for the players to figure out how to destroy the orb.
Another source of “positive energy” could potentially be healing magic. In older editions healing magic worked by drawing from the Positive Energy Plane. So Lay on Hands if there’s a Paladin in the party, Healing Hands if there’s an Aasimar in the party, or even just good ol’ fashioned cure wounds / healing word. Or something like lesser restoration / greater restoration might work too. Just as a thought.
I think 500 HP worth of damage from only radiant / healing sources is a lot though if they’re supposed to do it during combat, but I could be wrong. It really depends on if there’s a smiting Paladin or not, if all they have is word of radiance they’ll be there all day.
In place of turning checks, have the cleric (and/or paladin) use their channel divinity to represent the positive energy, but not just once. They have to keep it going. You could say it uses their concentration, and they have to keep it up for 5 rounds, or however long. The character won’t be able to use concentration spells, but they will be able to do other things, so at least the player isn’t just saying, I keep channelling divinity, and that’s their whole turn.
And the temple minions will know who is harming their master and attack the cleric, trying to force them to lose their concentration. So the rest of the party has to run interference and try and minimize the number of times the cleric takes damage.
I think this is probably a good way to do it. If you wanted to make it something more “active” for the Cleric to do while concentrating on their Channel Divinity, maybe make it a skill challenge of DC X Religion checks where they have to accumulate 5 successes or something to destroy the Orb.
That's also not a bad idea with a skill check, or a skill challenge allowing more players to attempt different things to destroy the orb. It's not really meant to be a thing done in combat, nor really something to be done before the temple has been cleared of enemies. - But it is the last thing to do before the campaign is complete.
That's also not a bad idea with a skill check, or a skill challenge allowing more players to attempt different things to destroy the orb. It's not really meant to be a thing done in combat, nor really something to be done before the temple has been cleared of enemies. - But it is the last thing to do before the campaign is complete.
I was gonna suggest using a skill challenge, which I would combine with the radiant damage/healing abilities ideas so the players have to draw on both skills and resources to do it.
I know the module of which you speak. I believe a Wish/Miracle spell would’ve been sufficient. If you have a full Wizard caster a scroll of Wish could be used or could use the Divine Intervention of the Cleric feature. I could also see a massive amount of radiant damage being able to destroy the Negative energy sphere.
It's been a long time, but I have come up with a method that I think will work for capturing the idea from the 3e module in destroying the orb. Here's what the module says about how to destroy the orb.
"Pouring enough positive energy into the negative energy orb destroys it. This requires making enough successful turning checks (high enough to affect a 20-HD undead) to deal 100 HD worth of turning damage."
Now 3e turning rules are a nightmare to work with, and even harder to make work for 5e. But I have decided to combine a few things allowing for more than one way of destroying the orb. Idea was to combine the 100 HD of turning damage that the original module says is required, and then allow healing to damage the orb as well. It's a Gargantuan object so I decided to make that 100 D20 Hit dice of hitpoints settling on the average being 1050 HP for the orb. Following below are how I have decided to setup a way to incorporate Channel divinity (turn undead into damage against the orb)
How to destroy the orb
The orb has 100d20 HD; 1050 Hitpoints It takes damage from positive energy (magical healing) and it heals from negative energy (necrotic damage). It is immune to all other forms of damage or influence.
A cleric or other class able to Turn undead can use this ability on the orb (using the following turning rules)
The cleric needs to be within 30 feet of the orb to use Turn undead on it. Then the cleric needs to make a turn undead check (1d20+wisdom modifier) (DC 20)) this check can be enhanced with Guidance and Bardic inspiration or other sources that can add to an ability check.
If successful the Cleric can then roll 4d6 + Cleric Level + Wisdom modifier. This number is the amount of turn damage done to the orb. Multiply the number by 10 and you get damage done.
Example: Level 18 cleric with 5 wisdom does turn undead First roll 1d20+5 = 22 = Success Now roll 4d6+18+5 = 37 turn damage Multiply 37 by 10 = 370 damage done
This requires a cleric to use on average 3 successful turn undead on the orb to completely destroy it. Or a combination of Turn undead and Healing to destroy it. It will not be easy but it's not meant to be either. By 3e rules, It would be incredibly difficult for a Cleric to successfully destroy the orb as well.
Im not imagining the players figuring this out very easily, I have not decided on any DC for a check regarding figuring out how to damage the orb, im in fact more open to leaving that completely up to the player's creativity, and trial and error attempts. It will most likely be attempted to be destroyed after they have finished off the BBEG of the campaign.
Im quite pleased with how this all came out in the end, but Im happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this idea.
It's been a long time, but I have come up with a method that I think will work for capturing the idea from the 3e module in destroying the orb. Here's what the module says about how to destroy the orb.
"Pouring enough positive energy into the negative energy orb destroys it. This requires making enough successful turning checks (high enough to affect a 20-HD undead) to deal 100 HD worth of turning damage."
Now 3e turning rules are a nightmare to work with, and even harder to make work for 5e. But I have decided to combine a few things allowing for more than one way of destroying the orb. Idea was to combine the 100 HD of turning damage that the original module says is required, and then allow healing to damage the orb as well. It's a Gargantuan object so I decided to make that 100 D20 Hit dice of hitpoints settling on the average being 1050 HP for the orb. Following below are how I have decided to setup a way to incorporate Channel divinity (turn undead into damage against the orb)
How to destroy the orb
The orb has 100d20 HD; 1050 Hitpoints It takes damage from positive energy (magical healing) and it heals from negative energy (necrotic damage). It is immune to all other forms of damage or influence.
A cleric or other class able to Turn undead can use this ability on the orb (using the following turning rules)
The cleric needs to be within 30 feet of the orb to use Turn undead on it. Then the cleric needs to make a turn undead check (1d20+wisdom modifier) (DC 20)) this check can be enhanced with Guidance and Bardic inspiration or other sources that can add to an ability check.
If successful the Cleric can then roll 4d6 + Cleric Level + Wisdom modifier. This number is the amount of turn damage done to the orb. Multiply the number by 10 and you get damage done.
Example: Level 18 cleric with 5 wisdom does turn undead First roll 1d20+5 = 22 = Success Now roll 4d6+18+5 = 37 turn damage Multiply 37 by 10 = 370 damage done
This requires a cleric to use on average 3 successful turn undead on the orb to completely destroy it. Or a combination of Turn undead and Healing to destroy it. It will not be easy but it's not meant to be either. By 3e rules, It would be incredibly difficult for a Cleric to successfully destroy the orb as well.
Im not imagining the players figuring this out very easily, I have not decided on any DC for a check regarding figuring out how to damage the orb, im in fact more open to leaving that completely up to the player's creativity, and trial and error attempts. It will most likely be attempted to be destroyed after they have finished off the BBEG of the campaign.
Im quite pleased with how this all came out in the end, but Im happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this idea.
Why the times 10? You could just reduce the orb’s hp to 105 instead of 1050 and get the same result, in terms of how hard it is to do. Keeps the math smaller and easier to deal with.
And healing energy isn’t really a thing. Radiant damage is, but there’s a number of ways to deal radiant, so maybe that’s what you were trying to avoid? I’d just take out the reference to healing energy.
And the turn undead check you describe is just a wisdom check, no real need to invent a term for it. Also, you should specify if it is the character’s action, or a bonus action, or what have you. I’d suggest allowing the addition of the character’s proficiency bonus, it should be easier for a higher level character. Or something based on how many cleric levels they have.
Why the times 10? You could just reduce the orb’s hp to 105 instead of 1050 and get the same result, in terms of how hard it is to do. Keeps the math smaller and easier to deal with.
And healing energy isn’t really a thing. Radiant damage is, but there’s a number of ways to deal radiant, so maybe that’s what you were trying to avoid? I’d just take out the reference to healing energy.
And the turn undead check you describe is just a wisdom check, no real need to invent a term for it. Also, you should specify if it is the character’s action, or a bonus action, or what have you. I’d suggest allowing the addition of the character’s proficiency bonus, it should be easier for a higher level character. Or something based on how many cleric levels they have.
Why the times 10? You could just reduce the orb’s hp to 105 instead of 1050 and get the same result, in terms of how hard it is to do. Keeps the math smaller and easier to deal with. - If the orb has too little hit points a single spell could just outright destory it.
And healing energy isn’t really a thing. Radiant damage is, but there’s a number of ways to deal radiant, so maybe that’s what you were trying to avoid? I’d just take out the reference to healing energy. - The point of healing damage goes back to 3e where there was positive and negative energy, where healing would harm undead and often negative energy would heal them. If I allowed radiant damage to hurt it, the orb would with time just be destroyed by cantrips.
And the turn undead check you describe is just a wisdom check, no real need to invent a term for it. - That is a completely fair point it is just a wisdom check. I kept the idea of 3e turn undead as much as possible hence the term which is from 3e. I think it would be better to just rename it to a wisdom check.
Also, you should specify if it is the character’s action, or a bonus action, or what have you. - It requires an action as per channel divinity "turn undead" no difference there. They are limited in attempts as per the amount of channel divinity they have per rest.
I’d suggest allowing the addition of the character’s proficiency bonus, it should be easier for a higher level character. Or something based on how many cleric levels they have. - Yeah, I toyed with the idea of allowing this into the wisdom check, or even for the turn damage roll. As for the wisdom check it would make it too easy to succeed. They would have a +11 to their roll, before any outside help modifiers. So I opted for not including that, to keep the difficulty close to that of the origional module. It could ofcause simply be included and just raise the DC of the wisdom check but that is essentially just the same outcome as not including it. With a +5 to the check a cleric has a 40% chance of success, before any modifiers like guidence, bardic inspiration, etc. Which is a higher success chance compared to the origional module, cause turn checks in 3e was made using the clerics charisma, which ofcause they would often not put many ability points into.
I for sure will change the check to be a wisdom check, cause that makes it more clear that the check can be helped with Enhance Ability as well.
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Hello Fellow DM's
Im running a 3e module right now (that im converting to 5e) and having trouble coming up with a suitable alternative to the following.
The party is going to be level 18 at the point where they have to destroy a temple of necromantic energy, which gains its power from a 40 foot-radius floating sphere of necromantic energy. The temple itself is also sentient. Now the orb is described by the module by being able to be destroyed by turning checks (3e stuff that doesn't work the same in 5e)
Now I need to find an alternative way that makes it hard but not impossible to destroy the orb, and in turn the tower. Of cause, a Wish spell could do the job but this would be one of the extraordinary uses of wish, and in fact, due to multiclassing the party won't be getting access to said spell.
Text from the module:
Positive Energy: Pouring enough positive energy into the negative energy orb destroys it. This requires making enough
successful turning checks (high enough to affect a 20-HD undead) to deal 100 HD worth of turning damage.
Im a bit stumped here on how to go about this so any suggestions would be appreciated.
Do they have access to radiant damage? That could work as a substitute.
As for how much, figure out how many turns it would take under the 3rd ed mechanics, and calibrate for that. (I assume there's something dangerous going on while they do it. If there isn't, timing doesn't matter.)
Thats a good idea. It would seem that most likely for level 18 cleric doing turn undead it would take around 5 - 6 rounds to be able to destroy the orb, assuming all check succeed. So if changing it to radiant damage being dealt to it, whatever 6 rounds worth of damage would look like.
Maybe 500 hp worth of damage needs to be done, only taking damage from radiant
I doubt the players will simply try to start blasting the orb, it will most likely be a thing they try and deal with after killing the BBEG inside the temple first. Which then means time wont really be a problem, it will just be for the players to figure out how to destroy the orb.
Im open to more ideas that might not necessarily be direct damage.
In place of turning checks, have the cleric (and/or paladin) use their channel divinity to represent the positive energy, but not just once. They have to keep it going. You could say it uses their concentration, and they have to keep it up for 5 rounds, or however long. The character won’t be able to use concentration spells, but they will be able to do other things, so at least the player isn’t just saying, I keep channelling divinity, and that’s their whole turn.
And the temple minions will know who is harming their master and attack the cleric, trying to force them to lose their concentration. So the rest of the party has to run interference and try and minimize the number of times the cleric takes damage.
Yeah I like this idea more than just plain damage, allows the players to focus on the orb or go for the BBEG, if they can destroy the orb before the BBEG fight then that fight will be alot easier. Most likely attacking the orb will have the temple "which is sentient" lash out and alert defenders of the attempt from the players.
Another source of “positive energy” could potentially be healing magic. In older editions healing magic worked by drawing from the Positive Energy Plane. So Lay on Hands if there’s a Paladin in the party, Healing Hands if there’s an Aasimar in the party, or even just good ol’ fashioned cure wounds / healing word. Or something like lesser restoration / greater restoration might work too. Just as a thought.
I think 500 HP worth of damage from only radiant / healing sources is a lot though if they’re supposed to do it during combat, but I could be wrong. It really depends on if there’s a smiting Paladin or not, if all they have is word of radiance they’ll be there all day.
I think this is probably a good way to do it. If you wanted to make it something more “active” for the Cleric to do while concentrating on their Channel Divinity, maybe make it a skill challenge of DC X Religion checks where they have to accumulate 5 successes or something to destroy the Orb.
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That's also not a bad idea with a skill check, or a skill challenge allowing more players to attempt different things to destroy the orb.
It's not really meant to be a thing done in combat, nor really something to be done before the temple has been cleared of enemies. - But it is the last thing to do before the campaign is complete.
I was gonna suggest using a skill challenge, which I would combine with the radiant damage/healing abilities ideas so the players have to draw on both skills and resources to do it.
I know the module of which you speak. I believe a Wish/Miracle spell would’ve been sufficient. If you have a full Wizard caster a scroll of Wish could be used or could use the Divine Intervention of the Cleric feature. I could also see a massive amount of radiant damage being able to destroy the Negative energy sphere.
It's been a long time, but I have come up with a method that I think will work for capturing the idea from the 3e module in destroying the orb.
Here's what the module says about how to destroy the orb.
"Pouring enough positive energy into the negative energy orb destroys it. This requires making enough successful turning checks (high enough to affect a 20-HD undead) to deal 100 HD worth of turning damage."
Now 3e turning rules are a nightmare to work with, and even harder to make work for 5e. But I have decided to combine a few things allowing for more than one way of destroying the orb. Idea was to combine the 100 HD of turning damage that the original module says is required, and then allow healing to damage the orb as well.
It's a Gargantuan object so I decided to make that 100 D20 Hit dice of hitpoints settling on the average being 1050 HP for the orb.
Following below are how I have decided to setup a way to incorporate Channel divinity (turn undead into damage against the orb)
How to destroy the orb
The orb has 100d20 HD; 1050 Hitpoints
It takes damage from positive energy (magical healing) and it heals from negative energy (necrotic damage). It is immune to all other forms of damage or influence.
A cleric or other class able to Turn undead can use this ability on the orb (using the following turning rules)
The cleric needs to be within 30 feet of the orb to use Turn undead on it.
Then the cleric needs to make a turn undead check (1d20+wisdom modifier) (DC 20)) this check can be enhanced with Guidance and Bardic inspiration or other sources that can add to an ability check.
If successful the Cleric can then roll 4d6 + Cleric Level + Wisdom modifier. This number is the amount of turn damage done to the orb. Multiply the number by 10 and you get damage done.
Example:
Level 18 cleric with 5 wisdom does turn undead
First roll 1d20+5 = 22 = Success
Now roll 4d6+18+5 = 37 turn damage
Multiply 37 by 10 = 370 damage done
This requires a cleric to use on average 3 successful turn undead on the orb to completely destroy it. Or a combination of Turn undead and Healing to destroy it. It will not be easy but it's not meant to be either. By 3e rules, It would be incredibly difficult for a Cleric to successfully destroy the orb as well.
Im not imagining the players figuring this out very easily, I have not decided on any DC for a check regarding figuring out how to damage the orb, im in fact more open to leaving that completely up to the player's creativity, and trial and error attempts. It will most likely be attempted to be destroyed after they have finished off the BBEG of the campaign.
Im quite pleased with how this all came out in the end, but Im happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this idea.
Why the times 10? You could just reduce the orb’s hp to 105 instead of 1050 and get the same result, in terms of how hard it is to do. Keeps the math smaller and easier to deal with.
And healing energy isn’t really a thing. Radiant damage is, but there’s a number of ways to deal radiant, so maybe that’s what you were trying to avoid? I’d just take out the reference to healing energy.
And the turn undead check you describe is just a wisdom check, no real need to invent a term for it. Also, you should specify if it is the character’s action, or a bonus action, or what have you. I’d suggest allowing the addition of the character’s proficiency bonus, it should be easier for a higher level character. Or something based on how many cleric levels they have.
Why the times 10? You could just reduce the orb’s hp to 105 instead of 1050 and get the same result, in terms of how hard it is to do. Keeps the math smaller and easier to deal with.
- If the orb has too little hit points a single spell could just outright destory it.
And healing energy isn’t really a thing. Radiant damage is, but there’s a number of ways to deal radiant, so maybe that’s what you were trying to avoid? I’d just take out the reference to healing energy.
- The point of healing damage goes back to 3e where there was positive and negative energy, where healing would harm undead and often negative energy would heal them.
If I allowed radiant damage to hurt it, the orb would with time just be destroyed by cantrips.
And the turn undead check you describe is just a wisdom check, no real need to invent a term for it.
- That is a completely fair point it is just a wisdom check. I kept the idea of 3e turn undead as much as possible hence the term which is from 3e. I think it would be better to just rename it to a wisdom check.
Also, you should specify if it is the character’s action, or a bonus action, or what have you.
- It requires an action as per channel divinity "turn undead" no difference there. They are limited in attempts as per the amount of channel divinity they have per rest.
I’d suggest allowing the addition of the character’s proficiency bonus, it should be easier for a higher level character. Or something based on how many cleric levels they have.
- Yeah, I toyed with the idea of allowing this into the wisdom check, or even for the turn damage roll. As for the wisdom check it would make it too easy to succeed. They would have a +11 to their roll, before any outside help modifiers. So I opted for not including that, to keep the difficulty close to that of the origional module. It could ofcause simply be included and just raise the DC of the wisdom check but that is essentially just the same outcome as not including it. With a +5 to the check a cleric has a 40% chance of success, before any modifiers like guidence, bardic inspiration, etc. Which is a higher success chance compared to the origional module, cause turn checks in 3e was made using the clerics charisma, which ofcause they would often not put many ability points into.
I for sure will change the check to be a wisdom check, cause that makes it more clear that the check can be helped with Enhance Ability as well.