I'm a newer DM, and it's not that we have an RP problem, per se, I don't particularly care if people talk as their character, etc. However, I recently designed an adventure for the party, and no one seems to want "play" beyond just fighting monsters. An NPC gave them some basic info, but no one asked any follow-up questions even though I had a ton of lore and information pre-prepared on the assumption that they'd be curious and ask more questions. When they didn't ask any more questions, they kind of just looked at me and were like "ok where do we go now" and I tried to encourage them by saying "you don't know where the entrance is because you didn't ask" and they got mad and said if this NPC wanted them to "do the thing" he'd tell them where the entrance was without them having to ask.
I also designed the dungeon with a few dead ends that had some interesting loot if they stopped to look, but they'd get to a dead end and then "ok I go back the other way" without "looking around". I had DCs set for investigation with some cool rewards (including a map of the dungeon that they had 3 different opportunities to look for). I realized late into it that I mistakenly gave away a crucial piece of information (the direction of flowing water) which basically allowed them to avoid all of the remaining dead ends and side chambers by choosing the path in an intersection the water was coming from. But they had no interest in exploring the side rooms or other paths.
It seemed like it was a "get to the end and fight the big boss as soon as possible" type of playstyle. Are there steps I can take to help with this? I don't want to waste my time designing the next dungeon with cool things for them to find if they're not interested in that.
It sounds like your players are new to the game. When that’s the case, don’t be afraid to tel them to do things. You can vouch it in fancy language if you like, but don’t feel you have to. For example, tell them it is common in D&D for things to be hidden, so they might want to search this area. And remind them to loot the bodies. Maybe even do it out of character at the start of a session. Explain this isn’t a video game where they will see exclamation marks over the heads of quest givers, or barrels that highlight when you mouse over them. they need to talk to people themselves, and say they are actively investigating the area.
Another explanation is they just want a hack and slash campaign, and you don’t seem to. Again, best solved by discussing in advance out of character so everyone sets expectations.
Xalthu is correct. “Session 0” is one of the most important (and most often neglected) parts of any campaign. That’s when you as the DM sit everyone down, explain what kind of game you intend to run, gage everyone’s interest, ask questions yourself, and decide how best to blend the kind of game you want to run, with what types/levels of engagement the players want.
That’s your opportunity to explain about searching for clues and asking strangers the right questions without “dialogue options A, B, or C.” That sets the stage. Then you can explain what type of story you want to run.
You could say “It’s a classic dungeon crawl. Kick in the door, kill the monster, loot the room, rinse and repeat.” OR “It’s a *noir mystery where none of you will ever know what to expect around any corner.” OR “It’s a *hardboiled mystery where unimaginable villains will test your characters metal and experience around every corner.” OR “It’s a classic pulp fantasy like Conan.” OR Whatever you like.
If they say “cool” then there is some expectation that they are on board with what you described. As long as you described it in a way that made your intentions clear, then your job just got 100% easier.
If you say “noir mystery” and they tell you they prefer to just “kick in the door”, then your job just got 50% easier. You just gotta start ‘em out kickin’ in doors, and then ease the mystery in until you find the sweet spot for that group. (It’ll be different for every group. Most of the time it’ll be more their way than yours until you get more practice. “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice....”) Eventually you’ll probably end up with something resembling a pulp/hardboiled mystery.
If you don’t have that conversation as a group, then all of your jobs, everyone at the table, just got 100% harder. Now, proverbially speaking, everyone is fumbling around in the dark trying to find the toilet. It’s messy, and awkward, and people learn things about each other they didn’t expect. (Tempers, irrationalities, whatever....) All of that is avoidable with one conversation.
Note, it goes from +100% difficulty, and then jumps down to -50%, there doesn’t seem to be anything in between in my experience. Others will probably disagree.
*The main difference between “noir” and “hardboiled” is that in noir usually centers on the victim of a crime or a noob detective now suddenly thrown into a dark mystery they are unprepared for; hardboiled usually focuses on the tough, experienced, and knowledge detective who is prepared for it and usually involves more action.
I ran a classic dungeon crawl for intro play. Leveling them to level 3. During that time I asked for player feedback on what they like and don't like what they want to see more it less of and how they feel about the combat encounters. I encouraged character to character and character to npc interplay. With statements like you don't know they because x player didn't share the info. In npc dialog I would hint by what the npc says to Peter to encourage them to dialog. Also reminding them in the first couple sessions about things they may want to do like check for traps or search for treasure. If an area is enticing enough the players will think something is there and look. Other times maybe not. Adlib a bit in story telling if they are missing something important. And rewrite a bit if desired that that still miss that something important. Especially if it is something you really want the players to have it experience. I had a single 2-3 hour session when my players solved a puzzle. I had to come up with stuff on the fly for because who knew what they would think or try. And tried to guide them without giving away the solution. One they knew the solution they recognize down the road when I added in something that completed the solution. But prior to that they failed to notice the clues to the puzzle. Which required the rewrite adding in the stuff to complete the puzzle they had missed before.
All of the above is solid advice, so I won't rehash it. But I will add two things.
1: Maybe your players are right. Why wouldn't the NPC give them the info they needed if he was asking them to do something? Was there a logical reason for the NPC to withhold info beyond your desire for the players to quiz them? If I was an NPC and I wanted a bunch of adventurers to go get my lost family heirloom, you'd be sure I'd remember to tell them it's being guarded by a dragon and that no one's sure of the exact entrance, but rumour is blah blah blah. So make sure things make sense.
2: This might be hard to hear, but..... are your plots and hooks interesting? You might find them interesting because you know what lies behind door number 3, but to the players, meh. Hooks need to be a thing of beauty that players grab on to and go "We're going to follow this path, because it sounds goddamn amazing."
It sounds like your players are new to the game. When that’s the case, don’t be afraid to tel them to do things. You can vouch it in fancy language if you like, but don’t feel you have to.
This is good advice if they are new. You don't have to tell them what to do but ask leading questions. For example, after all the orcs are down, if they seem like they're going to just move on without searching the bodies, you could ask, "Is anyone going to search the bodies?" That will tell them what's possible without you saying "you should search the bodies here." Similarly when they get to a dead end and say "We turn around," you could say, "OK, is anyone going to search the area for concealed items or secret doors before you leave?"
However be careful with this. If you ask it and they find the thing once, they might get into the habit of assuming you will telegraph to them when they should search and when they shouldn't. You'll have to monitor this with your particular group. If they are really new and into the game, one or two hints will give them the idea and they'll search on their own afterwards. Otherwise you may have to go easy and not over-hint to them.
And as everyone else has said, talk to them up-front and find out what they want from the game. Maybe they just want to kill stuff and don't like searching for secrets. If that's so and you want a group that goes secret-chasing, you may have to reevaluate your plans to DM for them...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Just remember what Henry Ford once said: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” but that’s only because nobody had ever imagined an affordable car until Henry Ford showed them one. They might not want what you plan to show them, but that might only be because you haven’t showed it to them yet.
The only tip I can give on organizations is look up the basics of it and wing it tbh.
I just take some organizations and try to add some elements that fit their general description. Keep track of the organization and let them enter some parts in the campaign you're DM'ing. For example, the Lords of the Alliance are noble and have a great feel for justification. So i added a few elements and NPC which gave me a lot of room to write them in certain chapters of the campaign in which they can either join the alliance or decline.
Not “Organizations” organization. Lol. Tips to help me be more organized. I was simply pointing out that even the people giving the poster advice are still working to improve their own work in their own ways. Some of us are good at our Insight checks, but struggle with our Arcana so to speak.
Not “Organizations” organization. Lol. Tips to help me be more organized. I was simply pointing out that even the people giving the poster advice are still working to improve their own work in their own ways. Some of us are good at our Insight checks, but struggle with our Arcana so to speak.
I use Google Drive and have various spreadsheets and documents to keep track of different things
Perhaps this was already mentioned, but using some passive skill checks might help tip-off the players to dig in a little deeper. If a character has a high passive insight, you could say something like, "You get the feeling that the bartender has more information about the dungeon than they are letting on." You could use a high passive investigation or perception check to tip-off that a dead end might not be a dead end. Hope this helps!
Perhaps this was already mentioned, but using some passive skill checks might help tip-off the players to dig in a little deeper. If a character has a high passive insight, you could say something like, "You get the feeling that the bartender has more information about the dungeon than they are letting on." You could use a high passive investigation or perception check to tip-off that a dead end might not be a dead end. Hope this helps!
That's a great idea, I was using PI and PP to have them "find" things that I wanted them to have but I like the idea of their PI flagging them to dig deeper. Thank you!
Do you award inspiration in your games? My players are very motivated by inspiration, both as a reward in general, and now that they understand advantage, that's a motivation as well. I 100% use it to reward the things I want more of.
I'm having the opposite problem at the moment. My players will question NPCS, but in weirdly artificial "Hi, how many humanoid creatures are here and what rooms are they in?" and my poor goblin is like "Brave dwarf help Droop?" We're working on it.
I'm a newer DM, and it's not that we have an RP problem, per se, I don't particularly care if people talk as their character, etc. However, I recently designed an adventure for the party, and no one seems to want "play" beyond just fighting monsters. An NPC gave them some basic info, but no one asked any follow-up questions even though I had a ton of lore and information pre-prepared on the assumption that they'd be curious and ask more questions. When they didn't ask any more questions, they kind of just looked at me and were like "ok where do we go now" and I tried to encourage them by saying "you don't know where the entrance is because you didn't ask" and they got mad and said if this NPC wanted them to "do the thing" he'd tell them where the entrance was without them having to ask.
I also designed the dungeon with a few dead ends that had some interesting loot if they stopped to look, but they'd get to a dead end and then "ok I go back the other way" without "looking around". I had DCs set for investigation with some cool rewards (including a map of the dungeon that they had 3 different opportunities to look for). I realized late into it that I mistakenly gave away a crucial piece of information (the direction of flowing water) which basically allowed them to avoid all of the remaining dead ends and side chambers by choosing the path in an intersection the water was coming from. But they had no interest in exploring the side rooms or other paths.
It seemed like it was a "get to the end and fight the big boss as soon as possible" type of playstyle. Are there steps I can take to help with this? I don't want to waste my time designing the next dungeon with cool things for them to find if they're not interested in that.
It sounds like your players are new to the game. When that’s the case, don’t be afraid to tel them to do things. You can vouch it in fancy language if you like, but don’t feel you have to. For example, tell them it is common in D&D for things to be hidden, so they might want to search this area. And remind them to loot the bodies. Maybe even do it out of character at the start of a session. Explain this isn’t a video game where they will see exclamation marks over the heads of quest givers, or barrels that highlight when you mouse over them. they need to talk to people themselves, and say they are actively investigating the area.
Another explanation is they just want a hack and slash campaign, and you don’t seem to. Again, best solved by discussing in advance out of character so everyone sets expectations.
Xalthu is correct. “Session 0” is one of the most important (and most often neglected) parts of any campaign. That’s when you as the DM sit everyone down, explain what kind of game you intend to run, gage everyone’s interest, ask questions yourself, and decide how best to blend the kind of game you want to run, with what types/levels of engagement the players want.
That’s your opportunity to explain about searching for clues and asking strangers the right questions without “dialogue options A, B, or C.” That sets the stage. Then you can explain what type of story you want to run.
You could say “It’s a classic dungeon crawl. Kick in the door, kill the monster, loot the room, rinse and repeat.” OR “It’s a *noir mystery where none of you will ever know what to expect around any corner.” OR “It’s a *hardboiled mystery where unimaginable villains will test your characters metal and experience around every corner.” OR “It’s a classic pulp fantasy like Conan.” OR Whatever you like.
If they say “cool” then there is some expectation that they are on board with what you described. As long as you described it in a way that made your intentions clear, then your job just got 100% easier.
If you say “noir mystery” and they tell you they prefer to just “kick in the door”, then your job just got 50% easier. You just gotta start ‘em out kickin’ in doors, and then ease the mystery in until you find the sweet spot for that group. (It’ll be different for every group. Most of the time it’ll be more their way than yours until you get more practice. “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice....”) Eventually you’ll probably end up with something resembling a pulp/hardboiled mystery.
If you don’t have that conversation as a group, then all of your jobs, everyone at the table, just got 100% harder. Now, proverbially speaking, everyone is fumbling around in the dark trying to find the toilet. It’s messy, and awkward, and people learn things about each other they didn’t expect. (Tempers, irrationalities, whatever....) All of that is avoidable with one conversation.
Note, it goes from +100% difficulty, and then jumps down to -50%, there doesn’t seem to be anything in between in my experience. Others will probably disagree.
*The main difference between “noir” and “hardboiled” is that in noir usually centers on the victim of a crime or a noob detective now suddenly thrown into a dark mystery they are unprepared for; hardboiled usually focuses on the tough, experienced, and knowledge detective who is prepared for it and usually involves more action.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I ran a classic dungeon crawl for intro play. Leveling them to level 3. During that time I asked for player feedback on what they like and don't like what they want to see more it less of and how they feel about the combat encounters. I encouraged character to character and character to npc interplay. With statements like you don't know they because x player didn't share the info. In npc dialog I would hint by what the npc says to Peter to encourage them to dialog. Also reminding them in the first couple sessions about things they may want to do like check for traps or search for treasure. If an area is enticing enough the players will think something is there and look. Other times maybe not. Adlib a bit in story telling if they are missing something important. And rewrite a bit if desired that that still miss that something important. Especially if it is something you really want the players to have it experience. I had a single 2-3 hour session when my players solved a puzzle. I had to come up with stuff on the fly for because who knew what they would think or try. And tried to guide them without giving away the solution. One they knew the solution they recognize down the road when I added in something that completed the solution. But prior to that they failed to notice the clues to the puzzle. Which required the rewrite adding in the stuff to complete the puzzle they had missed before.
All of the above is solid advice, so I won't rehash it. But I will add two things.
1: Maybe your players are right. Why wouldn't the NPC give them the info they needed if he was asking them to do something? Was there a logical reason for the NPC to withhold info beyond your desire for the players to quiz them? If I was an NPC and I wanted a bunch of adventurers to go get my lost family heirloom, you'd be sure I'd remember to tell them it's being guarded by a dragon and that no one's sure of the exact entrance, but rumour is blah blah blah. So make sure things make sense.
2: This might be hard to hear, but..... are your plots and hooks interesting? You might find them interesting because you know what lies behind door number 3, but to the players, meh. Hooks need to be a thing of beauty that players grab on to and go "We're going to follow this path, because it sounds goddamn amazing."
This is good advice if they are new. You don't have to tell them what to do but ask leading questions. For example, after all the orcs are down, if they seem like they're going to just move on without searching the bodies, you could ask, "Is anyone going to search the bodies?" That will tell them what's possible without you saying "you should search the bodies here." Similarly when they get to a dead end and say "We turn around," you could say, "OK, is anyone going to search the area for concealed items or secret doors before you leave?"
However be careful with this. If you ask it and they find the thing once, they might get into the habit of assuming you will telegraph to them when they should search and when they shouldn't. You'll have to monitor this with your particular group. If they are really new and into the game, one or two hints will give them the idea and they'll search on their own afterwards. Otherwise you may have to go easy and not over-hint to them.
And as everyone else has said, talk to them up-front and find out what they want from the game. Maybe they just want to kill stuff and don't like searching for secrets. If that's so and you want a group that goes secret-chasing, you may have to reevaluate your plans to DM for them...
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Just remember what Henry Ford once said: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” but that’s only because nobody had ever imagined an affordable car until Henry Ford showed them one. They might not want what you plan to show them, but that might only be because you haven’t showed it to them yet.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I will read through and try to digest all of this.
I will add, the players are not new.
And the thing about the NPC not telling them where to go was something I adlibbed to try to get them to interact more.
We're all working on something. You got any tips for me on organization?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The only tip I can give on organizations is look up the basics of it and wing it tbh.
I just take some organizations and try to add some elements that fit their general description. Keep track of the organization and let them enter some parts in the campaign you're DM'ing. For example, the Lords of the Alliance are noble and have a great feel for justification. So i added a few elements and NPC which gave me a lot of room to write them in certain chapters of the campaign in which they can either join the alliance or decline.
Not “Organizations” organization. Lol.
Tips to help me be more organized. I was simply pointing out that even the people giving the poster advice are still working to improve their own work in their own ways. Some of us are good at our Insight checks, but struggle with our Arcana so to speak.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I use Google Drive and have various spreadsheets and documents to keep track of different things
Thank you.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Perhaps this was already mentioned, but using some passive skill checks might help tip-off the players to dig in a little deeper. If a character has a high passive insight, you could say something like, "You get the feeling that the bartender has more information about the dungeon than they are letting on." You could use a high passive investigation or perception check to tip-off that a dead end might not be a dead end. Hope this helps!
That's a great idea, I was using PI and PP to have them "find" things that I wanted them to have but I like the idea of their PI flagging them to dig deeper. Thank you!
Do you award inspiration in your games? My players are very motivated by inspiration, both as a reward in general, and now that they understand advantage, that's a motivation as well. I 100% use it to reward the things I want more of.
I'm having the opposite problem at the moment. My players will question NPCS, but in weirdly artificial "Hi, how many humanoid creatures are here and what rooms are they in?" and my poor goblin is like "Brave dwarf help Droop?" We're working on it.
PixlFrend,
Poor Droop!
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting