I think that there's a lot of merit to have a DM PC, especially because they allow the DM to have a lot of ability to influence the progression of the story without going meta or railroading. However, how to you think that players perceive them?
I've never met a DMPC that I like. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea, but it tends to set the wrong tone. Either they come across too strong, monopolizing conversations or stealing kills, or they might as well not be there. Even a support NPC, like a healer, can be frustrating to support players who like to do all the healing. As a player, I always hated them; as a DM, I avoid them 99% of the time.
When I was a kid, we used them all the time. We rotated DMs, so when you were DM, your PC became an NPC. It was never really a problem except for the one DM, who used to make his adventures all about his own characters. Yeah, never do that.
they allow the DM to have a lot of ability to influence the progression of the story without going meta or railroading
I'm not sure it avoids railroading. If the DM PC is pushing the heroes to do something, how is that different from any other NPC doing it?
I had no intentions of having an NPC in my party and now we sort of have one, since one of the players often can't make it, so I run his PC for him as an NPC. But I try not to have him say anything that would influence the party's decisions, unless it is something REALLY obvious (he is a cheapskate so if they ever suggest purchasing something he will always recommend a cheaper option -- like walking instead of buying or renting horses).
I'd actually rather have no input into the party's decisions -- I'd rather they make the decisions. For instance in one session they missed something I thought was fairly obvious... I did not have the PC that I was running say anything to them. I just let them miss it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I was about to introduce a DM PC to the party but now I’m not sure I should. It was going to be a goblin bard. No story or pushing the PCs to do anything, they just want friends so they start following the party. For all I know they could just kill em lol.
There is a big difference between a “DMPC” and a “Party NPC.”
DMPCs can often make adventures all about themselves. If the NPC comes to the rescue every time the PCs get stuck that’s a DMPC. If they jump in every time a few players can’t remember something right away, that’s a DMPC. If they do the heroic stuff that the PCs should be doing, that’s an DMPC.
A Party NPC can help give a nudge if the players get stuck. Note, I said the players themselves, not their PCs. Whenever play grinds to a halt, or would otherwise become tedious over a mundane task that would otherwise needlessly slow down the narrative, that’s when a Party NPC is handy.
If they very occasionally remember a detail that all of the players forgot, and game play has completely ground to a halt for an extended period of time, that’s a nudge. If they occasionally point out an opinion when the party has become entrenched by disagreements: the two+ differing opinions turn to the NPC and ask “what‘s your vote?” If you have them roll persuasion and the NPC votes impartially (like any other NPC would) then that's an NPC. If they guard the horses and run the letters and get kidnapped so that the PCs can be the hero’s they are, that’s an NPC (just like any other NPC).
And if it turns out that you really screwed the pooch on your encounter balance, then all of the “attacks” they make that you roll but generally don’t worry about because the PCs should be the heroes and get the kills... actually start to count those attacks and fix my $|-|¡+. That NPC can distract some attacks and get pasted to take pressure off of the PCs. It’s my “In case of DM screwup, break open NPC and restore encounter balance” contingency plan. 🤞
I never once used a DM PC, to me it feels like it does not bring anything to the players. As a DM, I have enough to manage with the NPCs and the Monsters, that being omnipresent in the lives of the PCs is redundant. It also feels to me like it's not necessary to have one, since the players can take care of content on their own. if the group is lacking in something, then as the DM, I make sure to build my content and encounters accordingly. Always offer a challenge and customize it to your group.
If you feel like you need more space as a RPer, then I would recommend to put more emphasis on some recurring NPCs, something to add flavor to your campaign, give a voice to your world and that the players can interact with at their leisure. I am sure this way, you can have the interaction you seek with your players without becoming a crutch they will expect when anything goes wrong. I can tell you from experience, the most fun we've ever gotten in games is exactly then, when everything goes horribly wrong and the players need to think on their feet and find amusing ways of ditching themselves out.
I think it depends on how they are run. My DMPC's are brought in when my group has no idea what to do and no one wants to be the leader. My Rules for them are
they never level up they are either lower or higher than the main party and can be easily killed in battle as I roll their stats ( 3D6 in Order)
while they have good items and know the land they have flaws like they don't know how to talk to people, or don't understand how towns work.
They are usually classes/ races I'm testing out, example my group just picked up a Yan Ti Pureblood / Blood Hunter, and A Merfoak Cleric of Posidon ( Two races my players wanted to try as back up characters)
Finally, they don't have full storylines or backgrounds as they are optional party members and can be easily told to go away or left to die and the main story wont change
The Party NPC I’m using now I inherited from a player who wanted to switch characters. Like I said, their not important, just another tool for the toolbox. But my DMs always used the, so it’s just normal to me.
When I've run DM PCs in games, I try to treat them like roadies for a band- they're there to assist the party, not show off. They're a temporary event to give the party some ability to cope with something they couldn't otherwise. A spellcaster can provide cantrips and some healing and maybe defensive spells. I've been in games where DM PCs were major forces in the game. It always sucked.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Most DM PCs I've run into were purely plot devices. One time a DM had a very charismatic elven female DM PC run several sessions with our characters. She was helpful and never overshadowed the players and right when everyone became attached to the DM PC, she was brutally murdered by the baddies she had warned us about. Talk about brewing up some righteous vengeance for the characters and getting the players sucked into plot, this was mad genius.
I've used a DM PC in one campaign. I was fairly new to DMing, my (then preteen/teen) kids wanted to play a second game just the three of us because my husband's schedule made the finding time for the full family game difficult. I didn't feel like I could easily adjust encounters for fewer players, and I never got to play myself. So my son (the youngest) played one character, my daughter played 2, and I played the 4th. I was careful to let the players take the lead in decisions. We started with a couple of short written modules; when they ran the end of one of those modules off the rails, I had to move to writing stuff myself/adapting what I could find to follow up on their choices; all three of their characters had backstories with goals and story arcs they wanted to play out, so I started plotting out ways to to that. My character did not have a story arc; she was just along for the ride.
So, for us, it worked. But, I was very careful to 1) not make the story about me or my character 2) not overshadow their characters in combat or other encounters and 3) not control or influence the direction of the game.
I'm going for a test of a DMPC later tonight with my group as we play through Lost Mines of Phandelver. For those who don't know, there's an optional dragon in that module, and the characters aren't really expected to kill it, but my party kind of finished the main plot in a way where they won't get to take advantage of the cool weapons they found, so I want to give them a big challenge to go ham on... but still, i"m not totally sure how well they'll be able to handle a dragon, so I'm introducing a Druid NPC to assist. He's really intended just to be there for help... he only has one attack spell (shillelagh) and most of his other spells aren't really useful in combat (stuff like goodberry and purify food and drink). He's meant just as a way to convey information to the party and isn't meant to really be useful in combat so much as just to make the other players feel a little more secure by the presence of an additional ally in a scary conflict. If we do end up continuing this game after finishing the written module I don't intend for him to join the party or anything.
That said, I don't really like DMPCs... I prefer to have the player characters shine. But currently the DM in the game where I"m a player really enjoys bringing along DMPCs in our games. She does a good job of making them feel organically like members of the party, to the point that I can't really bring myself to ask her to get rid of them, since in-story none of my characters would have any reason to.
One of my DM's made a DMPC that was 11 levels higher than us. He basically killed every monster we met before it we even got a single turn. We though that was bad, but then DMPC killed about half the party when we told him to go away.
One of my DM's made a DMPC that was 11 levels higher than us. He basically killed every monster we met before it we even got a single turn. We though that was bad, but then DMPC killed about half the party when we told him to go away.
This really depends on the size of the group and the type of players. If your players are the 'thinker,' 'watcher', or 'beginner' types, then it is probably more acceptable.
Also, if the campaign has only 1 or 2 PC's, then it really helps to have a DMPC.
If you are using one, allow the actually players to make suggestions to what you will do. Additionally, allow the players to kick out the DMPC between sessions and make you get a different one. That way, they wont feel like your DMPC is hogging the spotlight since they have some control and veto power over that character.
I don't mind them. I think it mostly depends on the situation. Like, if they tie into the overall plot (say they are someone they have to protect, or they turn out to be a betrayer), or if your party is just super short on players.
For one campaign, we moved our previous characters from E4 to E5, and started from L1 again. The biggest issue was that because of IRL conflicts and obligations, or original party of five was cut down to two. Since there was only two of us (two elves, a sorceress and a rogue) we did NOT have a diverse, fleshed out team, and on top of that we were super squishy. Our DM decided to bring in one of his characters who would help us out in fights, though was passed out throughout half of the dialogue-heavy parts. He also had a really cool story that was woven in with my character's. So it sort of added a cool twist to the story, and helped balance out the players. We did have a couple people pop in and out as guest players, but not often. So having that one extra player really helped.
I got a pretty good response to introducing a DMPC who is deliberately unfit for battle... the players had fun with his personality, and when it came to combat the Wizard was happy to have someone else to cast Dragon's Breath on.
I think that there's a lot of merit to have a DM PC, especially because they allow the DM to have a lot of ability to influence the progression of the story without going meta or railroading. However, how to you think that players perceive them?
I've never met a DMPC that I like. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea, but it tends to set the wrong tone. Either they come across too strong, monopolizing conversations or stealing kills, or they might as well not be there. Even a support NPC, like a healer, can be frustrating to support players who like to do all the healing. As a player, I always hated them; as a DM, I avoid them 99% of the time.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
When I was a kid, we used them all the time. We rotated DMs, so when you were DM, your PC became an NPC. It was never really a problem except for the one DM, who used to make his adventures all about his own characters. Yeah, never do that.
I'm not sure it avoids railroading. If the DM PC is pushing the heroes to do something, how is that different from any other NPC doing it?
I had no intentions of having an NPC in my party and now we sort of have one, since one of the players often can't make it, so I run his PC for him as an NPC. But I try not to have him say anything that would influence the party's decisions, unless it is something REALLY obvious (he is a cheapskate so if they ever suggest purchasing something he will always recommend a cheaper option -- like walking instead of buying or renting horses).
I'd actually rather have no input into the party's decisions -- I'd rather they make the decisions. For instance in one session they missed something I thought was fairly obvious... I did not have the PC that I was running say anything to them. I just let them miss it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I was about to introduce a DM PC to the party but now I’m not sure I should. It was going to be a goblin bard. No story or pushing the PCs to do anything, they just want friends so they start following the party. For all I know they could just kill em lol.
There is a big difference between a “DMPC” and a “Party NPC.”
DMPCs can often make adventures all about themselves. If the NPC comes to the rescue every time the PCs get stuck that’s a DMPC. If they jump in every time a few players can’t remember something right away, that’s a DMPC. If they do the heroic stuff that the PCs should be doing, that’s an DMPC.
A Party NPC can help give a nudge if the players get stuck. Note, I said the players themselves, not their PCs. Whenever play grinds to a halt, or would otherwise become tedious over a mundane task that would otherwise needlessly slow down the narrative, that’s when a Party NPC is handy.
If they very occasionally remember a detail that all of the players forgot, and game play has completely ground to a halt for an extended period of time, that’s a nudge. If they occasionally point out an opinion when the party has become entrenched by disagreements: the two+ differing opinions turn to the NPC and ask “what‘s your vote?” If you have them roll persuasion and the NPC votes impartially (like any other NPC would) then that's an NPC. If they guard the horses and run the letters and get kidnapped so that the PCs can be the hero’s they are, that’s an NPC (just like any other NPC).
And if it turns out that you really screwed the pooch on your encounter balance, then all of the “attacks” they make that you roll but generally don’t worry about because the PCs should be the heroes and get the kills... actually start to count those attacks and fix my $|-|¡+. That NPC can distract some attacks and get pasted to take pressure off of the PCs. It’s my “In case of DM screwup, break open NPC and restore encounter balance” contingency plan. 🤞
Thats my 2cp anyway, I could be wrong. 🤷♂️
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I never once used a DM PC, to me it feels like it does not bring anything to the players. As a DM, I have enough to manage with the NPCs and the Monsters, that being omnipresent in the lives of the PCs is redundant. It also feels to me like it's not necessary to have one, since the players can take care of content on their own. if the group is lacking in something, then as the DM, I make sure to build my content and encounters accordingly. Always offer a challenge and customize it to your group.
If you feel like you need more space as a RPer, then I would recommend to put more emphasis on some recurring NPCs, something to add flavor to your campaign, give a voice to your world and that the players can interact with at their leisure. I am sure this way, you can have the interaction you seek with your players without becoming a crutch they will expect when anything goes wrong. I can tell you from experience, the most fun we've ever gotten in games is exactly then, when everything goes horribly wrong and the players need to think on their feet and find amusing ways of ditching themselves out.
I think it depends on how they are run. My DMPC's are brought in when my group has no idea what to do and no one wants to be the leader. My Rules for them are
they never level up they are either lower or higher than the main party and can be easily killed in battle as I roll their stats ( 3D6 in Order)
while they have good items and know the land they have flaws like they don't know how to talk to people, or don't understand how towns work.
They are usually classes/ races I'm testing out, example my group just picked up a Yan Ti Pureblood / Blood Hunter, and A Merfoak Cleric of Posidon ( Two races my players wanted to try as back up characters)
Finally, they don't have full storylines or backgrounds as they are optional party members and can be easily told to go away or left to die and the main story wont change
The Party NPC I’m using now I inherited from a player who wanted to switch characters. Like I said, their not important, just another tool for the toolbox. But my DMs always used the, so it’s just normal to me.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
When I've run DM PCs in games, I try to treat them like roadies for a band- they're there to assist the party, not show off. They're a temporary event to give the party some ability to cope with something they couldn't otherwise. A spellcaster can provide cantrips and some healing and maybe defensive spells. I've been in games where DM PCs were major forces in the game. It always sucked.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Most DM PCs I've run into were purely plot devices. One time a DM had a very charismatic elven female DM PC run several sessions with our characters. She was helpful and never overshadowed the players and right when everyone became attached to the DM PC, she was brutally murdered by the baddies she had warned us about. Talk about brewing up some righteous vengeance for the characters and getting the players sucked into plot, this was mad genius.
I've used a DM PC in one campaign. I was fairly new to DMing, my (then preteen/teen) kids wanted to play a second game just the three of us because my husband's schedule made the finding time for the full family game difficult. I didn't feel like I could easily adjust encounters for fewer players, and I never got to play myself. So my son (the youngest) played one character, my daughter played 2, and I played the 4th. I was careful to let the players take the lead in decisions. We started with a couple of short written modules; when they ran the end of one of those modules off the rails, I had to move to writing stuff myself/adapting what I could find to follow up on their choices; all three of their characters had backstories with goals and story arcs they wanted to play out, so I started plotting out ways to to that. My character did not have a story arc; she was just along for the ride.
So, for us, it worked. But, I was very careful to 1) not make the story about me or my character 2) not overshadow their characters in combat or other encounters and 3) not control or influence the direction of the game.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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I'm going for a test of a DMPC later tonight with my group as we play through Lost Mines of Phandelver. For those who don't know, there's an optional dragon in that module, and the characters aren't really expected to kill it, but my party kind of finished the main plot in a way where they won't get to take advantage of the cool weapons they found, so I want to give them a big challenge to go ham on... but still, i"m not totally sure how well they'll be able to handle a dragon, so I'm introducing a Druid NPC to assist. He's really intended just to be there for help... he only has one attack spell (shillelagh) and most of his other spells aren't really useful in combat (stuff like goodberry and purify food and drink). He's meant just as a way to convey information to the party and isn't meant to really be useful in combat so much as just to make the other players feel a little more secure by the presence of an additional ally in a scary conflict. If we do end up continuing this game after finishing the written module I don't intend for him to join the party or anything.
That said, I don't really like DMPCs... I prefer to have the player characters shine. But currently the DM in the game where I"m a player really enjoys bringing along DMPCs in our games. She does a good job of making them feel organically like members of the party, to the point that I can't really bring myself to ask her to get rid of them, since in-story none of my characters would have any reason to.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
One of my DM's made a DMPC that was 11 levels higher than us. He basically killed every monster we met before it we even got a single turn. We though that was bad, but then DMPC killed about half the party when we told him to go away.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
lmao None of that sounds fun at all D8
Did the GM run everything else in the game like that?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Nope. Just the annoyingly powerful DMPC. Though our employer was also pretty high-level.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
I been a dm/pc for 11 months clearly my party doesn't care.
This really depends on the size of the group and the type of players. If your players are the 'thinker,' 'watcher', or 'beginner' types, then it is probably more acceptable.
Also, if the campaign has only 1 or 2 PC's, then it really helps to have a DMPC.
If you are using one, allow the actually players to make suggestions to what you will do. Additionally, allow the players to kick out the DMPC between sessions and make you get a different one. That way, they wont feel like your DMPC is hogging the spotlight since they have some control and veto power over that character.
I don't mind them. I think it mostly depends on the situation. Like, if they tie into the overall plot (say they are someone they have to protect, or they turn out to be a betrayer), or if your party is just super short on players.
For one campaign, we moved our previous characters from E4 to E5, and started from L1 again. The biggest issue was that because of IRL conflicts and obligations, or original party of five was cut down to two. Since there was only two of us (two elves, a sorceress and a rogue) we did NOT have a diverse, fleshed out team, and on top of that we were super squishy. Our DM decided to bring in one of his characters who would help us out in fights, though was passed out throughout half of the dialogue-heavy parts. He also had a really cool story that was woven in with my character's. So it sort of added a cool twist to the story, and helped balance out the players. We did have a couple people pop in and out as guest players, but not often. So having that one extra player really helped.
I got a pretty good response to introducing a DMPC who is deliberately unfit for battle... the players had fun with his personality, and when it came to combat the Wizard was happy to have someone else to cast Dragon's Breath on.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium