I have devised an area in my dungeon the group must find their way through. The group is a combination of five 7th level players and NPC's. This is one of various encounters they have faced, or will face.
The zone is covered by the 5th level Hallow Spell, with the magical Darkness feature of the spell used. Per the spell, they would need some kind of magical lighting source cast at 5th level or higher, or Devil's Sight. They have neither.
Now, that means they are bumbling around in the magical dark. I am not sure if the players have taken or readied Dispel Magic. What is more, I have had some nebulous NPC cast the 4th level spell Guardian of Faith about 10 feet from a door they will have to pass through, inside that area. So in essence, every one of them would have to make a Dex save versus the NPC's DC (let's call it 16), against a flying magical sword they can't see, until the party all slips by, or absorbs 60 HP of combined damage.
Does this seem unfair in some way to the players? They are likely facing this in the next session.
I don't know about unfair, but it doesn't seem very fun. An area they can't see, an NPC they can't see, a sword they can't see. "You can't see anything and have no way of fixing that. Roll a dex save." I'd say ask yourself what it adds to the dungeon other than a period of everyone feeling completely worthless and taking damage for going into the dungeon put in front of them.
I don't know about unfair, but it doesn't seem very fun. An area they can't see, an NPC they can't see, a sword they can't see. "You can't see anything and have no way of fixing that. Roll a dex save." I'd say ask yourself what it adds to the dungeon other than a period of everyone feeling completely worthless and taking damage for going into the dungeon put in front of them.
D&D is not a game of self-worth. It is game of challenges and struggles to achieve an ultimate goal. This encounter is a struggle. I the players need some self-actualizing, they can get at the end of the dungeon if they defeat the BBEG. Oh, and the NPC is long gone. That spell has an 8 hour duration, and does a max of 60 HP total damage before ending.
If you want something similar but more "fun" for your players I think it would be better to limit their vision (but not just completly disable their sight) and give their enemies advantage on stealth while in that weird fog (npc magic).
I think that’s a nasty trap, but it’s not deadly. At 7th level a wizard can reasonably have 37 HP, and there are five characters in the group so it’s not going to kill any of the PCs. Plus they can cast Dispel Magic to dispel the Hallow spell.
Maybe give them a riddle a day ahead of time that prepares them? “Sharp is the secret hidden in the darkness” engraved on top of the door heading into the room with the Hallow spell is all that I can come up with, but I’m not good with riddles.
I can’t say I wouldn’t do something like this. It can be pretty good to put a group on the back foot or into a defensive mode to build drama. Especially when they start to get close to 10th level.
I say run the encounter the way you have planned, if you start getting a lot of frowns and pushback about it then you’ll have to adjust. I’d do a little foreshadowing by having the door to the area be surrounded by bones or a skeleton of a goblin that got wounded and crawled out and died, that sort of thing.
If the party has a “stealth” character or scout, let that person get through the area and the next person actually set off the trap.
The main thing that would make this unfun is that it would *drag on*. I don't think the fundamental mechanic - "figure out something clever to do here, or make a dex save vs 60 damage split among the party" - has anything wrong with it. But in practice, it seems like it would play out reeeally slowwly. Players moving through the dark, nothing really happening, just occasional dex saves for some damage. It would be very very challenging for the DM to describe what's going on in such a way that the players can do anything about it - from a player's perspective, it might seem very much like "It's dark. Nothing you do matters. Dex save for damage. You do something, no effect. Dex save for damage. You try something, nothing changes. Dex save for damage."
I think the setup is fine, but as DM, just be very sure that things keep moving forward. Once the players get the basic idea of what they're facing, get the players to describe their whole approach and then figure out how many rolls that would take and do them, rather than going step by step. Etc.
Bad move: "It’s too late, Eric. You have awakened the gazebo. It catches you and eats you." :D
you cast Magic Missile at the darkness.
LOL....I remember as a kid playing an the guys tried to do things like that.
WRT to my Hallowed area with Darkness, I have realized it is actually not that onerous. With that spell, the players get a CHA save at the end of each turn to see if they can ignore any effect associated with the Hallow spell. So in fairly short order, much of the party will be clear of the effect. I think the fact that some will be fine, others effectively blind, will be an interesting effect. Eventually, all will will be clear. That leads me to think scrapping the Guardian of Faith and replacing with some mobile creature with Blind sight would make the entire encounter more thrilling, as the players as the suspense builds on who can make their saves before the monster closes in with a huge Advantage.
Hard to say which way your group will go. I wouldn't have fun with this as there is no solution except move around until the thing stops attacking.
I agree.
Also as a DM, I wouldn't have fun with it because for me it is fun when my players find their way around things or, as it were, out-think me.
See my post above. It turns out the Darkness is temporary, as each player gets a CHA save at the end of every turn, per the spell. Eventually all will save.
Bad move: "It’s too late, Eric. You have awakened the gazebo. It catches you and eats you." :D
you cast Magic Missile at the darkness.
LOL....I remember as a kid playing an the guys tried to do things like that.
WRT to my Hallowed area with Darkness, I have realized it is actually not that onerous. With that spell, the players get a CHA save at the end of each turn to see if they can ignore any effect associated with the Hallow spell. So in fairly short order, much of the party will be clear of the effect. I think the fact that some will be fine, others effectively blind, will be an interesting effect. Eventually, all will will be clear. That leads me to think scrapping the Guardian of Faith and replacing with some mobile creature with Blind sight would make the entire encounter more thrilling, as the players as the suspense builds on who can make their saves before the monster closes in with a huge Advantage.
If it is a creature hiding in the darkness, it is a better encounter.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Hard to say which way your group will go. I wouldn't have fun with this as there is no solution except move around until the thing stops attacking.
I agree.
Also as a DM, I wouldn't have fun with it because for me it is fun when my players find their way around things or, as it were, out-think me.
See my post above. It turns out the Darkness is temporary, as each player gets a CHA save at the end of every turn, per the spell. Eventually all will save.
So you’re saying that The Darkness can be defeated? I disagree for no other reason than that the gazebo has eaten Eric.
The main problem I see with this is that it's a binary solution encounter.
If the players have Dispel Magic, they can dispel it and the encounter doesn't take place.
If they don't have Dispel Magic, they suffer 60 damage split between them.
There's no thinking for the players to do, they either have the tool, or they don't (either didn't take it or they've used up the tool by the time they reach it). This is always one of the difficulties in designing an encounter for a party whose spells and limitations you know well.
Possibilities to make it more entertaining:
Put in some kind of meat-shield puppets in a previous room that the party can 'feed' to the Guardian to expend all its damage. These could be cows, actual scarecrows, or something else.
Put in an alternative route that takes them through a different kind of danger, and make it clear that there are two choices. Choice A is the Guardian and darkness, Choice B can potentially deal more damage but can potentially be disabled altogether.
Give the PCs a way of nullifying the magic. They then have a choice on whether to use it or not, either saving a resource or burning it to avoid damage.
Play around with the line "hostile to you." Can the PCs present to the Guardian as not being hostile, or does it know in its spirity heart that they always are? Would wearing the right uniforms get them by? How about Disguise Self, appearing as the NPC? What if they vow that they mean no harm for the next 5 minutes? Alert the PCs to this beforehand - maybe the NPC has used this trick before.
One way to look at fairness in D&D is to make sure you give your players enough information and opportunities to make smart decisions about their situation. If there are clues that they will be facing magical darkness, they can make preparations for it, and if they don't, it's no one's fault but their own. And if they have hints about how difficult and dangerous the mission will be, they can make informed decisions about whether they want to encounter it or live to die another day.
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I have devised an area in my dungeon the group must find their way through. The group is a combination of five 7th level players and NPC's. This is one of various encounters they have faced, or will face.
The zone is covered by the 5th level Hallow Spell, with the magical Darkness feature of the spell used. Per the spell, they would need some kind of magical lighting source cast at 5th level or higher, or Devil's Sight. They have neither.
Now, that means they are bumbling around in the magical dark. I am not sure if the players have taken or readied Dispel Magic. What is more, I have had some nebulous NPC cast the 4th level spell Guardian of Faith about 10 feet from a door they will have to pass through, inside that area. So in essence, every one of them would have to make a Dex save versus the NPC's DC (let's call it 16), against a flying magical sword they can't see, until the party all slips by, or absorbs 60 HP of combined damage.
Does this seem unfair in some way to the players? They are likely facing this in the next session.
I don't know about unfair, but it doesn't seem very fun. An area they can't see, an NPC they can't see, a sword they can't see. "You can't see anything and have no way of fixing that. Roll a dex save." I'd say ask yourself what it adds to the dungeon other than a period of everyone feeling completely worthless and taking damage for going into the dungeon put in front of them.
D&D is not a game of self-worth. It is game of challenges and struggles to achieve an ultimate goal. This encounter is a struggle. I the players need some self-actualizing, they can get at the end of the dungeon if they defeat the BBEG. Oh, and the NPC is long gone. That spell has an 8 hour duration, and does a max of 60 HP total damage before ending.
If you want something similar but more "fun" for your players I think it would be better to limit their vision (but not just completly disable their sight) and give their enemies advantage on stealth while in that weird fog (npc magic).
I think that’s a nasty trap, but it’s not deadly. At 7th level a wizard can reasonably have 37 HP, and there are five characters in the group so it’s not going to kill any of the PCs. Plus they can cast Dispel Magic to dispel the Hallow spell.
Maybe give them a riddle a day ahead of time that prepares them? “Sharp is the secret hidden in the darkness” engraved on top of the door heading into the room with the Hallow spell is all that I can come up with, but I’m not good with riddles.
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I can’t say I wouldn’t do something like this. It can be pretty good to put a group on the back foot or into a defensive mode to build drama. Especially when they start to get close to 10th level.
I say run the encounter the way you have planned, if you start getting a lot of frowns and pushback about it then you’ll have to adjust. I’d do a little foreshadowing by having the door to the area be surrounded by bones or a skeleton of a goblin that got wounded and crawled out and died, that sort of thing.
If the party has a “stealth” character or scout, let that person get through the area and the next person actually set off the trap.
anyways, good luck! It sounds fun.
The main thing that would make this unfun is that it would *drag on*. I don't think the fundamental mechanic - "figure out something clever to do here, or make a dex save vs 60 damage split among the party" - has anything wrong with it. But in practice, it seems like it would play out reeeally slowwly. Players moving through the dark, nothing really happening, just occasional dex saves for some damage. It would be very very challenging for the DM to describe what's going on in such a way that the players can do anything about it - from a player's perspective, it might seem very much like "It's dark. Nothing you do matters. Dex save for damage. You do something, no effect. Dex save for damage. You try something, nothing changes. Dex save for damage."
I think the setup is fine, but as DM, just be very sure that things keep moving forward. Once the players get the basic idea of what they're facing, get the players to describe their whole approach and then figure out how many rolls that would take and do them, rather than going step by step. Etc.
"I attack the darkness!"
Hard to say which way your group will go. I wouldn't have fun with this as there is no solution except move around until the thing stops attacking.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You’re doing it wrong. You attack the gazebo, you cast Magic Missile at the darkness.
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LOL....I remember as a kid playing an the guys tried to do things like that.
WRT to my Hallowed area with Darkness, I have realized it is actually not that onerous. With that spell, the players get a CHA save at the end of each turn to see if they can ignore any effect associated with the Hallow spell. So in fairly short order, much of the party will be clear of the effect. I think the fact that some will be fine, others effectively blind, will be an interesting effect. Eventually, all will will be clear. That leads me to think scrapping the Guardian of Faith and replacing with some mobile creature with Blind sight would make the entire encounter more thrilling, as the players as the suspense builds on who can make their saves before the monster closes in with a huge Advantage.
I agree.
Also as a DM, I wouldn't have fun with it because for me it is fun when my players find their way around things or, as it were, out-think me.
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See my post above. It turns out the Darkness is temporary, as each player gets a CHA save at the end of every turn, per the spell. Eventually all will save.
If it is a creature hiding in the darkness, it is a better encounter.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
So you’re saying that The Darkness can be defeated? I disagree for no other reason than that the gazebo has eaten Eric.
RIP Eric...
The main problem I see with this is that it's a binary solution encounter.
If the players have Dispel Magic, they can dispel it and the encounter doesn't take place.
If they don't have Dispel Magic, they suffer 60 damage split between them.
There's no thinking for the players to do, they either have the tool, or they don't (either didn't take it or they've used up the tool by the time they reach it). This is always one of the difficulties in designing an encounter for a party whose spells and limitations you know well.
Possibilities to make it more entertaining:
One way to look at fairness in D&D is to make sure you give your players enough information and opportunities to make smart decisions about their situation. If there are clues that they will be facing magical darkness, they can make preparations for it, and if they don't, it's no one's fault but their own. And if they have hints about how difficult and dangerous the mission will be, they can make informed decisions about whether they want to encounter it or live to die another day.