There is nothing wrong with tossing new and surprising elements in, it just shouldn't be "I am now going to ambush you with something that specifically targets your character and makes you negatively useful, and you have no way of realizing it's there". Something that absorbs fire is fine, just make it something you could realistically figure out, or could have a reasonable chance of recovering from your mistake. For example, Brown Mold in previous edition grew if you hit it with fire, which could turn a small patch into a huge problem, but if you screwed up and did that, it wasn't going to chase you down, so you could recover.
I got three arguments and can’t pick so I’m using them all. (Don’t worry, the 2nd & 3rd are much shorter.
You watch TV or read comic books or anything?
Ever see that Star Trek Next Gen episode “Booby Trap?”
The crew is doing something inconsequential when they stumbled upon a derelict alien ship from forever ago adrift in an astroid belt or something. Picard gets all giddy because it’s an archeological relic from some ancient alien species that died of in a war a millennium ago while humans were still burning witches. He orders the ship closer so he can do his Indiana Jones routine and when they go to leave.. EENGH. Turns out the alien ship was there with all hands dead at their posts... because it was stuck. And now the enterprise is too. What’s more, while the booby trap is sucking the energy from the Enterprise, it’s converting it to lethal radiation and bombarding the ship with it. No e’rybody gonna die from the radar even Data.
Wanna talk about taking your superpower and turning it against you?!? That was all of their powers: Shields, phasers, torpedos, replicators, propulsion, transporter, all of them. And the thing was killing them with what it stole.
Memorable. And it was that much cooler when they found a way to adapt and overcome. And it led to personal story arc for LaForge.
Ever hear of a superhero by the name of Spider-Man?
He’s got genius level intelligence and heart for days, super strength and agility, he can walk on walls and cling to ceilings, he’s got cool gaskets, and a wit that puts Yurei to shame. But, like, lotsa heroes have all of that stuff too. But his most important superpower, the thing that many feel would even let him beat Batman (who can take out every member of the JLA just in case he has to) is his signature Spidy Sense.
During the secret wars he got himself some new threads that turned out to be an alien symbiont that made him more powerful than ever. It was also stark raving batt-poopy and was making him guano too. Eventually, with the help of some friends he (barely) managed to defeat it by exploiting the symbionts only weaknesses, microwaves and sonics. But even in its weakened and dying state, the symbiont got away....
Where did it go? It found kinship with another human, one who was an enemy of Spider-Man’s secret identity, Peter Parker!! That human was a man named Eddie Brock, a professional rival who hated Parker for getting him fired. Brock also happened to be an Olympic class weightlifter to boot, half-guano already, and had a murderous rage-on for Parker.
When they joined, they became one of Spider-Parker’s most dangerous enemies. Why? Because the symbiont knew all of Parker’s powers and secrets. Brock was already really strong and tough and had high endurance and dedication (remember, Olympic class athlete), but with the symbiont augmenting all of that he was more than a match for Parker physically. He didn’t need Spidy’s gadgets because the symbiont could replicate their effects only better, and it conferred other powers as well, ones Parker never even knew of. And, combined, both of them being half-nuts turned into both of them being full nuts!! Together, they were Venom!!!
But none of that was what made him so dangerous. What made him dangerous was two things: 1) Now Brock knew ev-er-ry-thin-g about his hated foe Parker, including his secret life as Spider-Man. 2) The Symbiont could counteract Spider-Man’s Spidy Sense so that Venom could ambush him. Venom could come out of nowhere and hit him like a ton of bricks on a freight train on steroids. There was no warning, and Venom would most definitely hunt Spider-Man relentlessly, and they knew where he lived and had seen where he slept... they knew about Aunt May.... Neither Spider-Man nor Peter Parker could ever run where Venom couldn’t get him, and without warning.
Man that was awesome when Spider-Man defeated Venom!
So tell me again why you can’t just take the heroes powers and turn them against the heroes once in a while. Because those are some of the most amazing stories. And look! ^^^ It works.
Is this “Sports-Entertainment” Wrestling?
This is a narrative like any other. There are characters and acts and story arcs and all that jazz. Back in the day the used to pretend 24/7 Thor it was all 100% real IRL, that was called “Kayfabe.”
In that genre, there are heroes called “Faces” and Villains called “Heels.” Everybody gets some special moves, and a signature move. When a wrestler wants to show how tough they are the shrug off an attack, that’s called “no-selling.” Why do the Biggest (most popular) Faces win? Because their signatures are “Protected.” The Heels aren’t allowed to no-sell a Face’s signature because it’s “Protected.”
So, are your heroes signatures protected like in fake pro wrestling?!? Really?? And that don’t break verisimilitude for your players?!? You telling me you never not once had a villain or monster no-sell on your PCs? They win because they always win? Why, because their Faces? Are they gonna shout “This is my favorite spell I wanna use it all the times and if you make it nor work you’re a doo doo head.” Of course they won’t. Because they’ll adapt and overcome, just like the examples in my last argument.
Don’t you let your Spellcasters have more than one spell? And you railroad them too?
or
Why are you arguing like Yurei?!?
"I am now going to ambush you with something that specifically targets your character and makes you negatively useful, and you have no way of realizing it's there" —Quote from Pantagruel666>>
The only person saying any of this is you.
It’s only an ambush if the have to fight it. If they see it ahead and could avoid combat then they have a choice. Nobody said to ambush the party, just to flip the script on them.
They do have ways of realizing it’s there. Likely someone will use Fire Bolt or something on it first and when the DM mentions that it made the monster look tougher or happy or something the players have a chance to figure it out. Nobody said there shouldn’t be a way to figure it out, but it doesn’t have to be signposted either.
So they accidentally made the monsters stronger. Woopsie. But the fight is still winnable, so it’s okay. Nobody said that the fight should be an unwinnable thing because that happened. They should still be able to win, or at least escape. Nobody said to take that away from them. But when they use their crutch, again, and instead of dying the thing gets stronger... oh, crap.... The heroes can still get to win, and the lesson can be learned.
Their only “negatively useful” if they do it twice. “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” If they do it a second time then that’s on them.
If the Wiz is throwing goodness-gracious around then the party is at least 5th-level. This would be a fantastic tome to use some of their other spells. Nobody said they have to use the same spells they always use. That’s why they get more than one of them.
There is nothing wrong with tossing new and surprising elements in, it just shouldn't be "I am now going to ambush you with something that specifically targets your character and makes you negatively useful, and you have no way of realizing it's there". Something that absorbs fire is fine, just make it something you could realistically figure out, or could have a reasonable chance of recovering from your mistake. For example, Brown Mold in previous edition grew if you hit it with fire, which could turn a small patch into a huge problem, but if you screwed up and did that, it wasn't going to chase you down, so you could recover.
I got three arguments and can’t pick so I’m using them all. (Don’t worry, the 2nd & 3rd are much shorter.
You watch TV or read comic books or anything?
Ever see that Star Trek Next Gen episode “Booby Trap?”
The crew is doing something inconsequential when they stumbled upon a derelict alien ship from forever ago adrift in an astroid belt or something. Picard gets all giddy because it’s an archeological relic from some ancient alien species that died of in a war a millennium ago while humans were still burning witches. He orders the ship closer so he can do his Indiana Jones routine and when they go to leave.. EENGH. Turns out the alien ship was there with all hands dead at their posts... because it was stuck. And now the enterprise is too. What’s more, while the booby trap is sucking the energy from the Enterprise, it’s converting it to lethal radiation and bombarding the ship with it. No e’rybody gonna die from the radar even Data.
Wanna talk about taking your superpower and turning it against you?!? That was all of their powers: Shields, phasers, torpedos, replicators, propulsion, transporter, all of them. And the thing was killing them with what it stole.
Memorable. And it was that much cooler when they found a way to adapt and overcome. And it led to personal story arc for LaForge.
Ever hear of a superhero by the name of Spider-Man?
He’s got genius level intelligence and heart for days, super strength and agility, he can walk on walls and cling to ceilings, he’s got cool gaskets, and a wit that puts Yurei to shame. But, like, lotsa heroes have all of that stuff too. But his most important superpower, the thing that many feel would even let him beat Batman (who can take out every member of the JLA just in case he has to) is his signature Spidy Sense.
During the secret wars he got himself some new threads that turned out to be an alien symbiont that made him more powerful than ever. It was also stark raving batt-poopy and was making him guano too. Eventually, with the help of some friends he (barely) managed to defeat it by exploiting the symbionts only weaknesses, microwaves and sonics. But even in its weakened and dying state, the symbiont got away....
Where did it go? It found kinship with another human, one who was an enemy of Spider-Man’s secret identity, Peter Parker!! That human was a man named Eddie Brock, a professional rival who hated Parker for getting him fired. Brock also happened to be an Olympic class weightlifter to boot, half-guano already, and had a murderous rage-on for Parker.
When they joined, they became one of Spider-Parker’s most dangerous enemies. Why? Because the symbiont knew all of Parker’s powers and secrets. Brock was already really strong and tough and had high endurance and dedication (remember, Olympic class athlete), but with the symbiont augmenting all of that he was more than a match for Parker physically. He didn’t need Spidy’s gadgets because the symbiont could replicate their effects only better, and it conferred other powers as well, ones Parker never even knew of. And, combined, both of them being half-nuts turned into both of them being full nuts!! Together, they were Venom!!!
But none of that was what made him so dangerous. What made him dangerous was two things: 1) Now Brock knew ev-er-ry-thin-g about his hated foe Parker, including his secret life as Spider-Man. 2) The Symbiont could counteract Spider-Man’s Spidy Sense so that Venom could ambush him. Venom could come out of nowhere and hit him like a ton of bricks on a freight train on steroids. There was no warning, and Venom would most definitely hunt Spider-Man relentlessly, and they knew where he lived and had seen where he slept... they knew about Aunt May.... Neither Spider-Man nor Peter Parker could ever run where Venom couldn’t get him, and without warning.
Man that was awesome when Spider-Man defeated Venom!
So tell me again why you can’t just take the heroes powers and turn them against the heroes once in a while. Because those are some of the most amazing stories. And look! ^^^ It works.
Is this “Sports-Entertainment” Wrestling?
This is a narrative like any other. There are characters and acts and story arcs and all that jazz. Back in the day the used to pretend 24/7 Thor it was all 100% real IRL, that was called “Kayfabe.”
In that genre, there are heroes called “Faces” and Villains called “Heels.” Everybody gets some special moves, and a signature move. When a wrestler wants to show how tough they are the shrug off an attack, that’s called “no-selling.” Why do the Biggest (most popular) Faces win? Because their signatures are “Protected.” The Heels aren’t allowed to no-sell a Face’s signature because it’s “Protected.”
So, are your heroes signatures protected like in fake pro wrestling?!? Really?? And that don’t break verisimilitude for your players?!? You telling me you never not once had a villain or monster no-sell on your PCs? They win because they always win? Why, because their Faces? Are they gonna shout “This is my favorite spell I wanna use it all the times and if you make it nor work you’re a doo doo head.” Of course they won’t. Because they’ll adapt and overcome, just like the examples in my last argument.
Don’t you let your Spellcasters have more than one spell? And you railroad them too?
or
Why are you arguing like Yurei?!?
"I am now going to ambush you with something that specifically targets your character and makes you negatively useful, and you have no way of realizing it's there" —Quote from Pantagruel666>>
The only person saying any of this is you.
It’s only an ambush if the have to fight it. If they see it ahead and could avoid combat then they have a choice. Nobody said to ambush the party, just to flip the script on them.
They do have ways of realizing it’s there. Likely someone will use Fire Bolt or something on it first and when the DM mentions that it made the monster look tougher or happy or something the players have a chance to figure it out. Nobody said there shouldn’t be a way to figure it out, but it doesn’t have to be signposted either.
So they accidentally made the monsters stronger. Woopsie. But the fight is still winnable, so it’s okay. Nobody said that the fight should be an unwinnable thing because that happened. They should still be able to win, or at least escape. Nobody said to take that away from them. But when they use their crutch, again, and instead of dying the thing gets stronger... oh, crap.... The heroes can still get to win, and the lesson can be learned.
Their only “negatively useful” if they do it twice. “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” If they do it a second time then that’s on them.
If the Wiz is throwing goodness-gracious around then the party is at least 5th-level. This would be a fantastic tome to use some of their other spells. Nobody said they have to use the same spells they always use. That’s why they get more than one of them.
You may have intended it as a 'trick' monster (here, something your usual tactics won't work against, let's see what you can come up with instead), but it came across more as a 'gotcha' monster (hah, you failed to read the DMs mind and suddenly this fight is twice as hard!). I have no problem with the first, I take offense at the second.
Lots of circumstances in D&D can make the situation much harder for the players if they don't stop and think first. Traps are a great example. The party enters a new dungeon and just waltzes down the corridor without checking for traps. Bam! They trip a spiked pit trap, and the front rank of the party falls down 30' and impales themselves on spikes, taking, I dunno, 3d6 bludgeoning and 3d6 piercing damage, say.
Is this punishing them for failing to "read the DM's mind" and know the trap was there? Or are they suffering the consequences of carelessly walking down a dungeon corridor without checking it first? There is a reason the "10' pole" was a standard purchase for at least one PC in every party back in the old days -- you probed the damn floor ahead of you to make sure it wasn't trapped. And you didn't probe it if you thought it "might" be trapped -- you probed it unless you were 100% certain it wasn't.
Opening a door, and at the top of the first round, hurling a fireball into the room against enemies you may not even have properly identified yet, which is what it sounds sort of like the OP's party of players is doing, is a pretty boneheaded thing to do. IMO, you deserve to pay some pretty nasty prices for doing it, at least once in a while.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Lots of circumstances in D&D can make the situation much harder for the players if they don't stop and think first.
Agreed, but stopping and thinking is only useful if the PCs have the information to actually make a better decision, which wasn't apparent in your original proposal. A major red flag for me was the absorption effect: simply making the monster fire immune is plenty to prevent using fireball, so the only way the absorption actually comes up is if this trait was inadequately telegraphed (I mean, if you want to make a fire elemental absorb fire, more power to you, but no-one is going to try to fireball it in the first place).
I'm not sure off the top of my head how many monsters have this, but seeing as 2 of the 3 spells you listed have DEX saves, might I suggest throwing enemies that have the Evasion feature?
Lv 5 wizard is going to be able to fireball 2 or 3 times a day, let them that's what they are there for, plenty more monsters where those came from, bring on the next wave. The DPS characters are also extremely squishy and have a very limited ability to AoE, and AoE spells are in there specifically to deal with crowds of low hp enemies, let them do what they are good at, if your encounters are varied then you shouldn't need to stuff in a lots of counters to your players abilities, they should crop up now and then.
Agreed, but stopping and thinking is only useful if the PCs have the information to actually make a better decision, which wasn't apparent in your original proposal.
Is it really necessary to call what should have obviously been a one-line snark answer "a proposal" and debate its merits for multiple pages on a thread?
Really?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Have monsters who come in waves. They will quickly learn to not just drop the hammer and AoE. Also, using monsters that can use their reactions to do things like Hellish Rebuke or the lightning ability of a Reckoner are great ways to give them pause of just AOE dpsing. Even if each only does a 1d4 or 1d6 'backlash' ability that adds up fast when you hit multiple targets. It is one of the reasons I loved the draconians in Dragonlance.
It doesn’t go a long way towards resolving your problem (although plenty of people have given plenty of advice) but I created an encounter where the thieves guild had been planning to attack my group and had set up a number of skirmishes to find out their strengths. They then lured them into a warehouse that had row after row of fabric hanging from the rafters all soaked in oil. Not a good place to be throwing around fire spells AND it ruined line of sight, so screwed with the archer in the party’s too.
Now, I don’t like tailoring encounters so specifically too often, because I think it’s unrealistic. But in this situation, perfect.
I don't know if you use a grid and minis but positioning can be a HUGE discourager to AoE spells. If your enemies get higher initiatives, have them position themselves so they're not clustered. Or have them intermingled with the party so that friendly fire becomes an issue.
I play as a fireball loving wizard in one campaign, and I gotta say, fireball loses priority very quickly after the first round if im forced to pick between using a whole spell slot for 1 enemy, or hitting my party
This.^^^
I don’t use a grid, but I narrate it this way without the grid and it has the same effect.
They’ll just have to learn to not wait for that one perfect triple kablam and adapt their expectations to maybe only catching smaller groups when they can.
But you don’t want to overdo it, if they never get to blow the 9 hells out of a solid group of baddies then that sucks for them.
I do use grid and try my best to spread things out but it could be my rooms are just not big enough to get a spread but small enough for my players to be efficient.
If the area is small then get your enemies in amongst the players, make it harder for the wizard to cast without friendly fire. Fireball is a big area effect that does not ignore allies so have the enemies move in close and ensure if he casts it he is going to his other party members.
I generally don't run dungeon crawls so we dont have room after room more often then not the fight is in a large open space so I can better set up the tactics of my enemies, flanking, coming in 2 waves (that is good the players think they have dealt with the threat only to have reinforcements arrive), targeting the magic users directly. After a while your will train your players to naturally keep hold of a spell or 2 because they are expecting more, at that point you ease off and then they just don't know if they should cast fireball now, or wait.
If the area is small then get your enemies in amongst the players, make it harder for the wizard to cast without friendly fire. Fireball is a big area effect that does not ignore allies so have the enemies move in close and ensure if he casts it he is going to his other party members.
It's an evocation Wizard with sculpt spell, so unfortunately that's not an option here.
If the area is small then get your enemies in amongst the players, make it harder for the wizard to cast without friendly fire. Fireball is a big area effect that does not ignore allies so have the enemies move in close and ensure if he casts it he is going to his other party members.
It's an evocation Wizard with sculpt spell, so unfortunately that's not an option here.
Yeah, when I've done smaller rooms thinking just like the Scarloc_Stormcall mentioned I've been "burned" because the wizard waves his hand and does his sculpting. (I really hate that wizard :) )
It doesn’t go a long way towards resolving your problem (although plenty of people have given plenty of advice) but I created an encounter where the thieves guild had been planning to attack my group and had set up a number of skirmishes to find out their strengths. They then lured them into a warehouse that had row after row of fabric hanging from the rafters all soaked in oil. Not a good place to be throwing around fire spells AND it ruined line of sight, so screwed with the archer in the party’s too.
Now, I don’t like tailoring encounters so specifically too often, because I think it’s unrealistic. But in this situation, perfect.
I think that is a really cool setup. If you don't mind I may pocket that encounter for a future game.
Going through all this feedback-- thanks by the way --I feel that I could have benefited from waves of enemies than I had just dumped them all into one room. Though I have to make sure these "waves" make sense to where the enemy is coming from then just * Bamf * Wave 2! Fight!
Use more powerful/status-inflicting monsters. It'll compel them to fight smarter, in my experience. In addition, think about monster tactics. There's a really good blog that talks about those.
Waves will help the most easily and generically against AOE alpha strikes.
As for IC justification... fireballs are explosions. They make a LOT of noise, presumably. That should bring everyone in the nearby rooms running. Weapons drawn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Use more powerful/status-inflicting monsters. It'll compel them to fight smarter, in my experience. In addition, think about monster tactics. There's a really good blog that talks about those.
That an option I've thought of as well the only issue is that finding creatures that fit with the narrative of the encounter and not throw something just as an ability counter.
Extreme Example Party: "We can take on this group of Gnolls! Oh, my gods, they have a Pit Fiend!"
I'd reskin or create my own monsters with those special abilities to try and keep the narrative if it was necessary.
Use more powerful/status-inflicting monsters. It'll compel them to fight smarter, in my experience. In addition, think about monster tactics. There's a really good blog that talks about those.
That an option I've thought of as well the only issue is that finding creatures that fit with the narrative of the encounter and not throw something just as an ability counter.
Extreme Example Party: "We can take on this group of Gnolls! Oh, my gods, they have a Pit Fiend!"
I'd reskin or create my own monsters with those special abilities to try and keep the narrative if it was necessary.
You got that backward... the Pit Fiend has Gnolls. Think of the combat as part of a narrative. Structure your narrative, and then fit the combats scenarios into that.
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I got three arguments and can’t pick so I’m using them all. (Don’t worry, the 2nd & 3rd are much shorter.
You watch TV or read comic books or anything?
Ever see that Star Trek Next Gen episode “Booby Trap?”
The crew is doing something inconsequential when they stumbled upon a derelict alien ship from forever ago adrift in an astroid belt or something. Picard gets all giddy because it’s an archeological relic from some ancient alien species that died of in a war a millennium ago while humans were still burning witches. He orders the ship closer so he can do his Indiana Jones routine and when they go to leave.. EENGH. Turns out the alien ship was there with all hands dead at their posts... because it was stuck. And now the enterprise is too. What’s more, while the booby trap is sucking the energy from the Enterprise, it’s converting it to lethal radiation and bombarding the ship with it. No e’rybody gonna die from the radar even Data.
Wanna talk about taking your superpower and turning it against you?!? That was all of their powers: Shields, phasers, torpedos, replicators, propulsion, transporter, all of them. And the thing was killing them with what it stole.
Memorable. And it was that much cooler when they found a way to adapt and overcome. And it led to personal story arc for LaForge.
Ever hear of a superhero by the name of Spider-Man?
He’s got genius level intelligence and heart for days, super strength and agility, he can walk on walls and cling to ceilings, he’s got cool gaskets, and a wit that puts Yurei to shame. But, like, lotsa heroes have all of that stuff too. But his most important superpower, the thing that many feel would even let him beat Batman (who can take out every member of the JLA just in case he has to) is his signature Spidy Sense.
During the secret wars he got himself some new threads that turned out to be an alien symbiont that made him more powerful than ever. It was also stark raving batt-poopy and was making him guano too. Eventually, with the help of some friends he (barely) managed to defeat it by exploiting the symbionts only weaknesses, microwaves and sonics. But even in its weakened and dying state, the symbiont got away....
Where did it go? It found kinship with another human, one who was an enemy of Spider-Man’s secret identity, Peter Parker!! That human was a man named Eddie Brock, a professional rival who hated Parker for getting him fired. Brock also happened to be an Olympic class weightlifter to boot, half-guano already, and had a murderous rage-on for Parker.
When they joined, they became one of Spider-Parker’s most dangerous enemies. Why? Because the symbiont knew all of Parker’s powers and secrets. Brock was already really strong and tough and had high endurance and dedication (remember, Olympic class athlete), but with the symbiont augmenting all of that he was more than a match for Parker physically. He didn’t need Spidy’s gadgets because the symbiont could replicate their effects only better, and it conferred other powers as well, ones Parker never even knew of. And, combined, both of them being half-nuts turned into both of them being full nuts!! Together, they were Venom!!!
But none of that was what made him so dangerous. What made him dangerous was two things: 1) Now Brock knew ev-er-ry-thin-g about his hated foe Parker, including his secret life as Spider-Man. 2) The Symbiont could counteract Spider-Man’s Spidy Sense so that Venom could ambush him. Venom could come out of nowhere and hit him like a ton of bricks on a freight train on steroids. There was no warning, and Venom would most definitely hunt Spider-Man relentlessly, and they knew where he lived and had seen where he slept... they knew about Aunt May.... Neither Spider-Man nor Peter Parker could ever run where Venom couldn’t get him, and without warning.
Man that was awesome when Spider-Man defeated Venom!
So tell me again why you can’t just take the heroes powers and turn them against the heroes once in a while. Because those are some of the most amazing stories. And look! ^^^ It works.
Is this “Sports-Entertainment” Wrestling?
This is a narrative like any other. There are characters and acts and story arcs and all that jazz. Back in the day the used to pretend 24/7 Thor it was all 100% real IRL, that was called “Kayfabe.”
In that genre, there are heroes called “Faces” and Villains called “Heels.” Everybody gets some special moves, and a signature move. When a wrestler wants to show how tough they are the shrug off an attack, that’s called “no-selling.” Why do the Biggest (most popular) Faces win? Because their signatures are “Protected.” The Heels aren’t allowed to no-sell a Face’s signature because it’s “Protected.”
So, are your heroes signatures protected like in fake pro wrestling?!? Really?? And that don’t break verisimilitude for your players?!? You telling me you never not once had a villain or monster no-sell on your PCs? They win because they always win? Why, because their Faces? Are they gonna shout “This is my favorite spell I wanna use it all the times and if you make it nor work you’re a doo doo head.” Of course they won’t. Because they’ll adapt and overcome, just like the examples in my last argument.
Don’t you let your Spellcasters have more than one spell? And you railroad them too?
or
Why are you arguing like Yurei?!?
The only person saying any of this is you.
It’s only an ambush if the have to fight it. If they see it ahead and could avoid combat then they have a choice. Nobody said to ambush the party, just to flip the script on them.
They do have ways of realizing it’s there. Likely someone will use Fire Bolt or something on it first and when the DM mentions that it made the monster look tougher or happy or something the players have a chance to figure it out. Nobody said there shouldn’t be a way to figure it out, but it doesn’t have to be signposted either.
So they accidentally made the monsters stronger. Woopsie. But the fight is still winnable, so it’s okay. Nobody said that the fight should be an unwinnable thing because that happened. They should still be able to win, or at least escape. Nobody said to take that away from them. But when they use their crutch, again, and instead of dying the thing gets stronger... oh, crap.... The heroes can still get to win, and the lesson can be learned.
Their only “negatively useful” if they do it twice. “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” If they do it a second time then that’s on them.
If the Wiz is throwing goodness-gracious around then the party is at least 5th-level. This would be a fantastic tome to use some of their other spells. Nobody said they have to use the same spells they always use. That’s why they get more than one of them.
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Content Troubleshooting
You may have intended it as a 'trick' monster (here, something your usual tactics won't work against, let's see what you can come up with instead), but it came across more as a 'gotcha' monster (hah, you failed to read the DMs mind and suddenly this fight is twice as hard!). I have no problem with the first, I take offense at the second.
Lots of circumstances in D&D can make the situation much harder for the players if they don't stop and think first. Traps are a great example. The party enters a new dungeon and just waltzes down the corridor without checking for traps. Bam! They trip a spiked pit trap, and the front rank of the party falls down 30' and impales themselves on spikes, taking, I dunno, 3d6 bludgeoning and 3d6 piercing damage, say.
Is this punishing them for failing to "read the DM's mind" and know the trap was there? Or are they suffering the consequences of carelessly walking down a dungeon corridor without checking it first? There is a reason the "10' pole" was a standard purchase for at least one PC in every party back in the old days -- you probed the damn floor ahead of you to make sure it wasn't trapped. And you didn't probe it if you thought it "might" be trapped -- you probed it unless you were 100% certain it wasn't.
Opening a door, and at the top of the first round, hurling a fireball into the room against enemies you may not even have properly identified yet, which is what it sounds sort of like the OP's party of players is doing, is a pretty boneheaded thing to do. IMO, you deserve to pay some pretty nasty prices for doing it, at least once in a while.
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Agreed, but stopping and thinking is only useful if the PCs have the information to actually make a better decision, which wasn't apparent in your original proposal. A major red flag for me was the absorption effect: simply making the monster fire immune is plenty to prevent using fireball, so the only way the absorption actually comes up is if this trait was inadequately telegraphed (I mean, if you want to make a fire elemental absorb fire, more power to you, but no-one is going to try to fireball it in the first place).
I'm not sure off the top of my head how many monsters have this, but seeing as 2 of the 3 spells you listed have DEX saves, might I suggest throwing enemies that have the Evasion feature?
Lv 5 wizard is going to be able to fireball 2 or 3 times a day, let them that's what they are there for, plenty more monsters where those came from, bring on the next wave. The DPS characters are also extremely squishy and have a very limited ability to AoE, and AoE spells are in there specifically to deal with crowds of low hp enemies, let them do what they are good at, if your encounters are varied then you shouldn't need to stuff in a lots of counters to your players abilities, they should crop up now and then.
An NPC that happens to win Initiative, casts casts Hypnotic Pattern, and then runs away from trouble is your friend.
Is it really necessary to call what should have obviously been a one-line snark answer "a proposal" and debate its merits for multiple pages on a thread?
Really?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Have monsters who come in waves. They will quickly learn to not just drop the hammer and AoE. Also, using monsters that can use their reactions to do things like Hellish Rebuke or the lightning ability of a Reckoner are great ways to give them pause of just AOE dpsing. Even if each only does a 1d4 or 1d6 'backlash' ability that adds up fast when you hit multiple targets. It is one of the reasons I loved the draconians in Dragonlance.
It doesn’t go a long way towards resolving your problem (although plenty of people have given plenty of advice) but I created an encounter where the thieves guild had been planning to attack my group and had set up a number of skirmishes to find out their strengths. They then lured them into a warehouse that had row after row of fabric hanging from the rafters all soaked in oil. Not a good place to be throwing around fire spells AND it ruined line of sight, so screwed with the archer in the party’s too.
Now, I don’t like tailoring encounters so specifically too often, because I think it’s unrealistic. But in this situation, perfect.
If the area is small then get your enemies in amongst the players, make it harder for the wizard to cast without friendly fire. Fireball is a big area effect that does not ignore allies so have the enemies move in close and ensure if he casts it he is going to his other party members.
I generally don't run dungeon crawls so we dont have room after room more often then not the fight is in a large open space so I can better set up the tactics of my enemies, flanking, coming in 2 waves (that is good the players think they have dealt with the threat only to have reinforcements arrive), targeting the magic users directly. After a while your will train your players to naturally keep hold of a spell or 2 because they are expecting more, at that point you ease off and then they just don't know if they should cast fireball now, or wait.
It's an evocation Wizard with sculpt spell, so unfortunately that's not an option here.
Yeah, when I've done smaller rooms thinking just like the Scarloc_Stormcall mentioned I've been "burned" because the wizard waves his hand and does his sculpting. (I really hate that wizard :) )
I think that is a really cool setup. If you don't mind I may pocket that encounter for a future game.
Going through all this feedback-- thanks by the way --I feel that I could have benefited from waves of enemies than I had just dumped them all into one room. Though I have to make sure these "waves" make sense to where the enemy is coming from then just * Bamf * Wave 2! Fight!
Use more powerful/status-inflicting monsters. It'll compel them to fight smarter, in my experience. In addition, think about monster tactics. There's a really good blog that talks about those.
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Waves will help the most easily and generically against AOE alpha strikes.
As for IC justification... fireballs are explosions. They make a LOT of noise, presumably. That should bring everyone in the nearby rooms running. Weapons drawn.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That an option I've thought of as well the only issue is that finding creatures that fit with the narrative of the encounter and not throw something just as an ability counter.
Extreme Example Party: "We can take on this group of Gnolls! Oh, my gods, they have a Pit Fiend!"
I'd reskin or create my own monsters with those special abilities to try and keep the narrative if it was necessary.
Don't forget about Legendary creatures. They get to go on other characters' turns. And they get to auto-save a failed save a few times per fight.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You got that backward... the Pit Fiend has Gnolls. Think of the combat as part of a narrative. Structure your narrative, and then fit the combats scenarios into that.