In the monster manual dragons have a variant spellcasting rule which I doubt many DMs use. I wonder if its because folks just prefer to stack a caster class on their dragons or if it is just too much work to mess with.
With that in mind I created a handful of default spells for the adult chromatic dragons. I thought I would post and see if anyone else has done something similar or has any suggestions to what I came up with.
Chromatic Dragons
Adult Red Dragon - five 5th level or lower spells 'Red dragons fly into destructive rages and act on impulse when angered. They are so ferocious and vengeful that they are regarded as the archetypical evil dragon by many cultures.' Hellish Rebuke (cast at 5th level) 2/day Wall of Fire (cast at 5th level) 1/day Fireball (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Adult Blue Dragon - four 5th level or lower spells 'Blue dragons covet valuable and talented creatures whose service reinforces their sense of superiority. Bards, sages, artists, wizards, and assassins can become valuable agents for a blue dragon, which rewards loyal service handsomely.' Meld into Stone 1/day Storm Sphere (cast at 5th level) 2/day Animal Friendship (cast at 5th level) 1/day
Adult Green Dragon - three 5th level or lower spells 'A wily and subtle creature, a green dragon bends other creatures to its will by assessing and playing off their deepest desires. Any creature foolish enough to attempt to subdue a green dragon eventually realizes that the creature is only pretending to serve while it assesses its would-be master.' Greater Invisibility 2/day Mislead 1/day
Adult Black Dragon - three 4th level or lower spells 'All chromatic dragons are evil, but black dragons stand apart for their sadistic nature. A black dragon lives to watch its prey beg for mercy, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies.' Blindness/Deafness (cast at 4th level) 2/day Fog Cloud (cast at 4th level) 1/day
Adult White Dragon - one 4th level or lower spell 'White dragons lack the cunning and tactics of most other dragons. However, their bestial nature makes them the best hunters among all dragonkind, singularly focused on surviving and slaughtering their enemies.' Sleet Storm 1/day
Metallic Dragons
Adult Gold Dragon - Seven 5th level or lower spells 'Older gold dragons can assume animal and humanoid forms. Rarely does a gold dragon in disguise reveal its true form. In the guise of a peddler, it might regularly visit a town to catch up on local gossip, patronize honest businesses, and lend a helping hand in unseen ways. In the guise of an animal, the dragon might befriend a lost child, a wandering minstrel, or an innkeeper, serving as a companion for days or weeks on end.' Dispel Evil and Good 2/day Greater Restoration 2/day Mass Cure Wounds 2/day Raise Dead 1/day
Adult Silver Dragon - five 5th level or lower spells 'Silver dragons believe that living a moral life involves doing good deeds and ensuring that one’s actions cause no undeserved harm to other sentient beings. They don’t take it upon themselves to root out evil, as gold and bronze dragons do, but they will gladly oppose creatures that dare to commit evil acts or harm the innocent.' Dimension Door 2/day Ice Storm (cast at 5th level) 2/day Legend Lore 1/day
Adult Bronze Dragon - four 5th level or lower spells 'Bronze dragons actively oppose tyranny, and many bronze dragons yearn to test their mettle by putting their size and strength to good use. When a conflict unfolds near its lair, a bronze dragon ascertains the underlying cause, then offers its services to any side that fights for good. Once a bronze dragon commits to a cause, it remains a staunch ally.' Maelstrom 2/day Thunder Step (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Adult Copper Dragon - three 4th level or lower spells 'A copper dragon appreciates wit, a good joke, humorous story, or riddle. A copper dragon becomes annoyed with any creature that doesn’t laugh at its jokes or accept its tricks with good humor.' Charm Monster 2/day Hypnotic Pattern 1/day
Adult Brass Dragon - three 4th level or lower spell 'A brass dragon is trusting of creatures that appear to enjoy conversation as much as it does, but is smart enough to know when it is being manipulated. When that happens, the dragon often responds in kind, treating a bout of mutual trickery as a game.' Fast Friends (cast at 4th level) 1/day Hold Person (cast at 4th level) 2/day
(Edit: corrected the red dragon spell levels)
(Edit II: added the metallic dragons because why not?)
Hm. I'm inclined to give dragons general purpose spellcasting, but I mostly don't give them stuff for combat anyway, just stuff like Identify and Locate Object and Private Sanctum and Legend Lore.
I normally just use the MM variant spellcasting rules but if I want a dragon to have a few more spells then I just go with it, because like you said, all dragons ROCK, and can do whatever I feel like. I will give a more powerful dragon a few levels of spellcaster once in a while.
Interesting. I like the idea of giving dragons spells like legend lore but it seems only useful for dragons that play a more NPC role. Private Sanctum on the other hand...that has interesting ramifications.
Interesting. I like the idea of giving dragons spells like legend lore but it seems only useful for dragons that play a more NPC role. Private Sanctum on the other hand...that has interesting ramifications.
Ramification: has a chance of defending its lair against mid to high level spellcasters. Blocking scrying and teleportation is pretty much a necessity for dealing with higher level spellcasters.
Oh yeah, dragons for sure need more ways to protect their lair. I can imagine a dragon moving in to an abandoned or looted lair that might still have private sanctum lingering. Not always a necessity to use a dragon's slots. Unless that is not an issue for the DM of course. I just hate to have every dragon lair prepped and ready to negate the PC's abilities. Sometimes a dragon might be fine with getting out of dodge when the murder hobo's come a calling. :)
Oh yeah, dragons for sure need more ways to protect their lair. I can imagine a dragon moving in to an abandoned or looted lair that might still have private sanctum lingering. Not always a necessity to use a dragon's slots. Unless that is not an issue for the DM of course. I just hate to have every dragon lair prepped and ready to negate the PC's abilities. Sometimes a dragon might be fine with getting out of dodge when the murder hobo's come a calling. :)
My assumption is that tactics expire. When you first get spells like Invisibility, Gaseous Form, Arcane Eye, Dimension Door, etc, most of your opposition won't be prepared for it, but it won't stay that way. The lowest CR of any Adult dragon is 13, I wouldn't expect 4th level spells to be a surprise (though Young dragons are likely not prepared).
I generally set my dragon spells based on the story, dragons are a big thing that I place at key moments in a campaign however I also have a dragon variant I have used as a BBEG.
Ancient Silver Dragon who was obsessed with gaining knowledge to try and stop an end of the world prophecy they used found. Ended up becoming the actual thing that was prophesied about.
They players first interaction was with an individual Who hired them for a number of quests gaining information, items and scrolls for him. As this humanoid being developed the players noticed that he was gaining tattoos on his body.
In reality he was a Silver Dragon in human form who was learning spell much like a wizard, however instead of having a wizard book the spells became runes on his body. He could prepare x many a day, and like a wizard could cast ritual spells he knew for free as rituals.
As an added twist the players also met a green dragon, who had identified the threat the silver was to the material plane and tried working to stop it. For a while the players (not characters) where convinced green dragon was the bbeg and when they discovered there employer was a silver dragon assumed he was the good guy. But the rune idea meant I could choose what spells where available to the silver dragon day to day.
My dragons get the full set of features of a spell-casting class, but typically avoid anything with a spell book.
I had a Young Black that was also a 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer, and gave it Legendary Actions that allowed it to cast Cantrips and 1st level spells, (1 LA point for a cantrip, 2 LA points for a 1st level spell)
Dragons in my world are as close to a god in power as anything.They should have a full suite of spell-casting abilities.
Oh, and Greens are a natural fit for the Druid class, Silvers for the Bard class...you get the picture.
Such a creature has a ton on moving parts, so difficult for the DM to use, but well worth it.
For the DM's that simply add spell casting freestyle, I am curious how you take balance into account?
Part of what started this for me was playing in a campaign where the DM rarely considered balance. For example, in this game we had an encounter with a green dragon. It had +10 to initiative, teleportation of some kind and other odd powers. From my player perspective I felt as if I was fighting a bundle of powers specifically geared towards defeating the party rather than a dragon with special abilities that made sense based on the kind of creature it was. So how do you avoid that pitfall?
So I started thinking about what I might do. I read the descriptions of the dragons and tried to give them spells that seem to have a purpose for the monster. I started with the green dragon based on my experience and moved on to the others. This isn't an attempt to codify all dragons but rather I want to present some options so a DM (myself included) might actually get an idea for how many spells and how powerful they should be considering the base creature stats.
My dragons get the full set of features of a spell-casting class, but typically avoid anything with a spell book.
I had a Young Black that was also a 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer, and gave it Legendary Actions that allowed it to cast Cantrips and 1st level spells, (1 LA point for a cantrip, 2 LA points for a 1st level spell)
Dragons in my world are as close to a god in power as anything.They should have a full suite of spell-casting abilities.
Oh, and Greens are a natural fit for the Druid class, Silvers for the Bard class...you get the picture.
Such a creature has a ton on moving parts, so difficult for the DM to use, but well worth it.
This goes completely against RAW, though. Isn't it better to be creative within the confines of RAW on how the dragons use their magic?
This goes completely against RAW, though. Isn't it better to be creative within the confines of RAW on how the dragons use their magic?
RAW is perfectly willing to let you create custom monsters with additional abilities. Honestly, I wouldn't use vanilla versions of monsters for much of anything above CR 10, the default underestimates just how much weird stuff tier 3-4 PCs can do.
My dragons get the full set of features of a spell-casting class, but typically avoid anything with a spell book.
I had a Young Black that was also a 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer, and gave it Legendary Actions that allowed it to cast Cantrips and 1st level spells, (1 LA point for a cantrip, 2 LA points for a 1st level spell)
Dragons in my world are as close to a god in power as anything.They should have a full suite of spell-casting abilities.
Oh, and Greens are a natural fit for the Druid class, Silvers for the Bard class...you get the picture.
Such a creature has a ton on moving parts, so difficult for the DM to use, but well worth it.
This goes completely against RAW, though. Isn't it better to be creative within the confines of RAW on how the dragons use their magic?
I'm not sure if Lostwhilefishing is trolling Vince because of Vince's usual impassioned stance on RAW; but I am curious how Vince handles caster levels. Given the longevity, and the work of building their particular hordes I imagine all Ancient and a good many Adult dragons are 20th level casters. I guess since they're likened to gods in his game, probably not a big deal though I imagine CR changes considerably. One thing I am sure of, in Vinceworld a party never attempts a shield wall when approaching a dragon unless they're painting TPK on their shields beforehand.
Adding caster levels to dragons doesn't change their CR by that much unless you give them quickened casting, since CR is based mostly on damage output and for a dragon a lot of spells aren't a better use of an action than just attacking. An Adult dragon is the equivalent of anywhere from Adult to Very Old in 3.5e, which suggests the following for each:
Black Dragon: Sorcerer 3-9, darkness, corrupt water, plant growth
Blue Dragon: Sorcerer 5-11, ventriloquism, hallucinatory terrain
Green Dragon: Sorcerer 5-11, suggestion, plant growth
Red Dragon: Sorcerer 7-13, suggestion
White Dragon: Sorcerer 1-7, fog cloud, gust of wind, freezing fog
Tempted to write up 5e equivalents of 3.5e dragons, with 12 age categories and all.
I give them innate spellcasting, usually based on their color and personality, but I might also give them dispel magic if a specific (usually buff) spell is letting the players win most encounters too easily.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
I haven't used a dragon with innate spellcasting yet, but I would probably have them use offensive spells like fireball between uses of their breath weapon to avoid melee characters.
I use another homebrew rule. The maximum level is still Charisma / 3, rounded down, but I give them a number of spell known equal to Charisma / 2, rounded up, and add a few rules: - they must know at least one spell for each possible level, so if they have Charisma 15 and the maximum level is 5, they have 8 spells distributed in a way that they have at least one L1, one L2, one L3, one L4, one L5; the remaining ones can be put wherever - they can't have more then 3 L4 spells, 3 L5 spells, 2 L6 spells, 2 L7 spells, 1 L8 spell, 1 L9 spell - when choosing the spells known, they usually get sorcerer spells, but I give to chromatic the choice of having 1/3 of their spells (rounded down) taken from the wizard list, while I give metallic the same amount from the cleric list; of course, with appropriate background I rarely choose druid spells instead, or maybe give a metallic dragon wizard spells if it really makes sense - they don't have just one use of these spells: they can cast the known L1-L3 3 times/day each, L4-L5 twice per day, and once per day for the rest
This rules give them a bit more power with medium and lower spells, but less options to choose from
In the monster manual dragons have a variant spellcasting rule which I doubt many DMs use. I wonder if its because folks just prefer to stack a caster class on their dragons or if it is just too much work to mess with.
With that in mind I created a handful of default spells for the adult chromatic dragons. I thought I would post and see if anyone else has done something similar or has any suggestions to what I came up with.
Chromatic Dragons
Adult Red Dragon - five 5th level or lower spells
'Red dragons fly into destructive rages and act on impulse when angered. They are so ferocious and vengeful that they are regarded as the archetypical evil dragon by many cultures.'
Hellish Rebuke (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Wall of Fire (cast at 5th level) 1/day
Fireball (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Adult Blue Dragon - four 5th level or lower spells
'Blue dragons covet valuable and talented creatures whose service reinforces their sense of superiority. Bards, sages, artists, wizards, and assassins can become valuable agents for a blue dragon, which rewards loyal service handsomely.'
Meld into Stone 1/day
Storm Sphere (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Animal Friendship (cast at 5th level) 1/day
Adult Green Dragon - three 5th level or lower spells
'A wily and subtle creature, a green dragon bends other creatures to its will by assessing and playing off their deepest desires. Any creature foolish enough to attempt to subdue a green dragon eventually realizes that the creature is only pretending to serve while it assesses its would-be master.'
Greater Invisibility 2/day
Mislead 1/day
Adult Black Dragon - three 4th level or lower spells
'All chromatic dragons are evil, but black dragons stand apart for their sadistic nature. A black dragon lives to watch its prey beg for mercy, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies.'
Blindness/Deafness (cast at 4th level) 2/day
Fog Cloud (cast at 4th level) 1/day
Adult White Dragon - one 4th level or lower spell
'White dragons lack the cunning and tactics of most other dragons. However, their bestial nature makes them the best hunters among all dragonkind, singularly focused on surviving and slaughtering their enemies.'
Sleet Storm 1/day
Metallic Dragons
Adult Gold Dragon - Seven 5th level or lower spells
'Older gold dragons can assume animal and humanoid forms. Rarely does a gold dragon in disguise reveal its true form. In the guise of a peddler, it might regularly visit a town to catch up on local gossip, patronize honest businesses, and lend a helping hand in unseen ways. In the guise of an animal, the dragon might befriend a lost child, a wandering minstrel, or an innkeeper, serving as a companion for days or weeks on end.'
Dispel Evil and Good 2/day
Greater Restoration 2/day
Mass Cure Wounds 2/day
Raise Dead 1/day
Adult Silver Dragon - five 5th level or lower spells
'Silver dragons believe that living a moral life involves doing good deeds and ensuring that one’s actions cause no undeserved harm to other sentient beings. They don’t take it upon themselves to root out evil, as gold and bronze dragons do, but they will gladly oppose creatures that dare to commit evil acts or harm the innocent.'
Dimension Door 2/day
Ice Storm (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Legend Lore 1/day
Adult Bronze Dragon - four 5th level or lower spells
'Bronze dragons actively oppose tyranny, and many bronze dragons yearn to test their mettle by putting their size and strength to good use. When a conflict unfolds near its lair, a bronze dragon ascertains the underlying cause, then offers its services to any side that fights for good. Once a bronze dragon commits to a cause, it remains a staunch ally.'
Maelstrom 2/day
Thunder Step (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Adult Copper Dragon - three 4th level or lower spells
'A copper dragon appreciates wit, a good joke, humorous story, or riddle. A copper dragon becomes annoyed with any creature that doesn’t laugh at its jokes or accept its tricks with good humor.'
Charm Monster 2/day
Hypnotic Pattern 1/day
Adult Brass Dragon - three 4th level or lower spell
'A brass dragon is trusting of creatures that appear to enjoy conversation as much as it does, but is smart enough to know when it is being manipulated. When that happens, the dragon often responds in kind, treating a bout of mutual trickery as a game.'
Fast Friends (cast at 4th level) 1/day
Hold Person (cast at 4th level) 2/day
(Edit: corrected the red dragon spell levels)
(Edit II: added the metallic dragons because why not?)
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
I don’t use class levels or caster levels for monsters. I give them what feels appropriate for them to have and call it good.
Pretty much what I figure most DM's do. Do you have any favorite 'go to' examples? Like giving pixies conjure woodland beings instead of polymorph?
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Hm. I'm inclined to give dragons general purpose spellcasting, but I mostly don't give them stuff for combat anyway, just stuff like Identify and Locate Object and Private Sanctum and Legend Lore.
I normally just use the MM variant spellcasting rules but if I want a dragon to have a few more spells then I just go with it, because like you said, all dragons ROCK, and can do whatever I feel like. I will give a more powerful dragon a few levels of spellcaster once in a while.
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Interesting. I like the idea of giving dragons spells like legend lore but it seems only useful for dragons that play a more NPC role. Private Sanctum on the other hand...that has interesting ramifications.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Ramification: has a chance of defending its lair against mid to high level spellcasters. Blocking scrying and teleportation is pretty much a necessity for dealing with higher level spellcasters.
Oh yeah, dragons for sure need more ways to protect their lair. I can imagine a dragon moving in to an abandoned or looted lair that might still have private sanctum lingering. Not always a necessity to use a dragon's slots. Unless that is not an issue for the DM of course. I just hate to have every dragon lair prepped and ready to negate the PC's abilities. Sometimes a dragon might be fine with getting out of dodge when the murder hobo's come a calling. :)
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
My assumption is that tactics expire. When you first get spells like Invisibility, Gaseous Form, Arcane Eye, Dimension Door, etc, most of your opposition won't be prepared for it, but it won't stay that way. The lowest CR of any Adult dragon is 13, I wouldn't expect 4th level spells to be a surprise (though Young dragons are likely not prepared).
I generally set my dragon spells based on the story, dragons are a big thing that I place at key moments in a campaign however I also have a dragon variant I have used as a BBEG.
Ancient Silver Dragon who was obsessed with gaining knowledge to try and stop an end of the world prophecy they used found. Ended up becoming the actual thing that was prophesied about.
They players first interaction was with an individual Who hired them for a number of quests gaining information, items and scrolls for him. As this humanoid being developed the players noticed that he was gaining tattoos on his body.
In reality he was a Silver Dragon in human form who was learning spell much like a wizard, however instead of having a wizard book the spells became runes on his body. He could prepare x many a day, and like a wizard could cast ritual spells he knew for free as rituals.
As an added twist the players also met a green dragon, who had identified the threat the silver was to the material plane and tried working to stop it. For a while the players (not characters) where convinced green dragon was the bbeg and when they discovered there employer was a silver dragon assumed he was the good guy. But the rune idea meant I could choose what spells where available to the silver dragon day to day.
My dragons get the full set of features of a spell-casting class, but typically avoid anything with a spell book.
I had a Young Black that was also a 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer, and gave it Legendary Actions that allowed it to cast Cantrips and 1st level spells, (1 LA point for a cantrip, 2 LA points for a 1st level spell)
Dragons in my world are as close to a god in power as anything.They should have a full suite of spell-casting abilities.
Oh, and Greens are a natural fit for the Druid class, Silvers for the Bard class...you get the picture.
Such a creature has a ton on moving parts, so difficult for the DM to use, but well worth it.
For the DM's that simply add spell casting freestyle, I am curious how you take balance into account?
Part of what started this for me was playing in a campaign where the DM rarely considered balance. For example, in this game we had an encounter with a green dragon. It had +10 to initiative, teleportation of some kind and other odd powers. From my player perspective I felt as if I was fighting a bundle of powers specifically geared towards defeating the party rather than a dragon with special abilities that made sense based on the kind of creature it was. So how do you avoid that pitfall?
So I started thinking about what I might do. I read the descriptions of the dragons and tried to give them spells that seem to have a purpose for the monster. I started with the green dragon based on my experience and moved on to the others. This isn't an attempt to codify all dragons but rather I want to present some options so a DM (myself included) might actually get an idea for how many spells and how powerful they should be considering the base creature stats.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
This goes completely against RAW, though. Isn't it better to be creative within the confines of RAW on how the dragons use their magic?
RAW is perfectly willing to let you create custom monsters with additional abilities. Honestly, I wouldn't use vanilla versions of monsters for much of anything above CR 10, the default underestimates just how much weird stuff tier 3-4 PCs can do.
I'm not sure if Lostwhilefishing is trolling Vince because of Vince's usual impassioned stance on RAW; but I am curious how Vince handles caster levels. Given the longevity, and the work of building their particular hordes I imagine all Ancient and a good many Adult dragons are 20th level casters. I guess since they're likened to gods in his game, probably not a big deal though I imagine CR changes considerably. One thing I am sure of, in Vinceworld a party never attempts a shield wall when approaching a dragon unless they're painting TPK on their shields beforehand.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Adding caster levels to dragons doesn't change their CR by that much unless you give them quickened casting, since CR is based mostly on damage output and for a dragon a lot of spells aren't a better use of an action than just attacking. An Adult dragon is the equivalent of anywhere from Adult to Very Old in 3.5e, which suggests the following for each:
Tempted to write up 5e equivalents of 3.5e dragons, with 12 age categories and all.
I give them innate spellcasting, usually based on their color and personality, but I might also give them dispel magic if a specific (usually buff) spell is letting the players win most encounters too easily.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
I haven't used a dragon with innate spellcasting yet, but I would probably have them use offensive spells like fireball between uses of their breath weapon to avoid melee characters.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
I use another homebrew rule.
The maximum level is still Charisma / 3, rounded down, but I give them a number of spell known equal to Charisma / 2, rounded up, and add a few rules:
- they must know at least one spell for each possible level, so if they have Charisma 15 and the maximum level is 5, they have 8 spells distributed in a way that they have at least one L1, one L2, one L3, one L4, one L5; the remaining ones can be put wherever
- they can't have more then 3 L4 spells, 3 L5 spells, 2 L6 spells, 2 L7 spells, 1 L8 spell, 1 L9 spell
- when choosing the spells known, they usually get sorcerer spells, but I give to chromatic the choice of having 1/3 of their spells (rounded down) taken from the wizard list, while I give metallic the same amount from the cleric list; of course, with appropriate background I rarely choose druid spells instead, or maybe give a metallic dragon wizard spells if it really makes sense
- they don't have just one use of these spells: they can cast the known L1-L3 3 times/day each, L4-L5 twice per day, and once per day for the rest
This rules give them a bit more power with medium and lower spells, but less options to choose from
Interesting options. Pretty complicated though. I think I'd just give a dragon some wizard or sorcerer levels if I were to go to that much effort.
@ everyone...is it just me or are the spell recommendations in Fizbans complete and utter garbage? I think you'd be better off following this thread!
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats