Forgetting for a minute the requirement "image appears at a spot that you can see"...
Casting light is a specific characteristic called out for spells and objects. It's separately called out for spells/objects where it's not the major feature of the spell. Major illusion doesn't say anything about casting light, so I'd say it is not capable of creating its own light.
If the spell isn't creating light, the options are twofold for how the observer actually sees it -
The spell is somehow 'finding' light in the room, and changing wavelengths to create colors and then directing that light into the eyes of the observer(s).
The spell creates an illusion in the minds of observers.
The range stated is from the caster to the image, and not from the caster to observers - an observer could be miles away from the caster and would see the image if their vision was acute enough and they had line of sight. Any sort of charm spell has a range that applies to the distance from caster to charmed, and the higher that range, the more powerful that spell would be considered. This is only a level three spell, so a range of miles is unreasonable. I interpret this as meaning we must have the first situation. The spell is using existing light to create the illusion. This also explains the inability to increase light levels in the room.
Since the spell is using existing light, not creating it, it must be non-magical light (in the same way that boulder thrown by a spell is not a magical boulder). So it can't be seen in darkness. Perversely, if the spell weren't using light at all, and were projecting the image straight into the brain (and again, that's insanely powerful if it can modify the minds of someone miles away, even if it's to the same end) then you would be able to see it in darkness. Though again, it would cast no light.
By way of contrast, the cantrip 'Dancing Lights' would work since it creates its own magical light. A string of 4 dancing lights, spaced 20' apart, would create an 80 feet long, 20 feet wide corridor of magical dim light through the Darkness.
Of course, that's just my take, at my table. In a fictional fantasy game, the quality of an edge-case ruling like this should be measured by how consistently you apply it. If you let the players defeat darkness with major image, then the BBEG can do so also. Major image now also becomes a light source in general, so you could cast an image of a torch and use it to light your way in a dungeon, and you should figure out how much bright/dim light it is capable of casting.
Are you trying to say that phantom images are real images and should affect inanimate objects?
I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
What I am saying is that Illusion come in two flavors: The kind that make actual images in space (like holograms), and the kind that put images directly in the mind’s of the observers.
I am also stating that any illusion stating it targets an area (not a creature) and creates images in that space (not within the mind of a creature) are the “hologram” type of illusions. Those spells and effects (including minor illusion, major image, and the pattern generated by an uncommon glamerweave) do not create illusions that a creature sees “in their mind” but instead actual images the creature sees with their eyes.
Whereas spells such as mental prison, fear, and phantasmal force specify that the illusions they create are specifically within the mind’s of the creatures targeted.
If it targets an area it creates an actual image, if it targets a creature it creates a mental image.
If the magical darkness still overpowers the light from the illusion that is what it is. And if the area cannot be targeted because of the magical darkness, then it is what it is. But to say that the illusions created by the spell are purely mental images when the spell explicitly states otherwise...?
Are you trying to say that phantom images are real images and should affect inanimate objects?
I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
What I am saying is that Illusion come in two flavors: The kind that make actual images in space (like holograms), and the kind that put images directly in the mind’s of the observers.
I am also stating that any illusion stating it targets an area (not a creature) and creates images in that space (not within the mind of a creature) are the “hologram” type of illusions. Those spells and effects (including minor illusion, major image, and the pattern generated by an uncommon glamerweave) do not create illusions that a creature sees “in their mind” but instead actual images the creature sees with their eyes.
Whereas spells such as mental prison, fear, and phantasmal force specify that the illusions they create are specifically within the mind’s of the creatures targeted.
If it targets an area it creates an actual image, if it targets a creature it creates a mental image.
If the magical darkness still overpowers the light from the illusion that is what it is. And if the area cannot be targeted because of the magical darkness, then it is what it is. But to say that the illusions created by the spell are purely mental images when the spell explicitly states otherwise...?
Furthermore, if a PC uses a 3rd-level spell slot to cast Major Image and create an illusory torch, if that couldn’t at least function sufficiently to replicate torchlight or the light Cantrip within Major Image’s AoE, then that is absolute crap for a 3rd-level spell slot. Even if it just creates a 20-foot cube of bright light and absolutely nothing past that. (And even if the magical darkness still consumes that light. 🤷♂️)
Furthermore, if a PC uses a 3rd-level spell slot to cast Major Image and create an illusory torch, if that couldn’t at least function sufficiently to replicate torchlight or the light Cantrip within Major Image’s AoE, then that is absolute crap for a 3rd-level spell slot. Even if it just creates a 20-foot cube of bright light and absolutely nothing past that. (And even if the magical darkness still consumes that light. 🤷♂️)
Exactly! That's exactly what I was getting at in post #3!
... I'm a big advocate of "rulings over rules", even when those rulings break the rules.
By way of contrast, the cantrip 'Dancing Lights' would work since it creates its own magical light. A string of 4 dancing lights, spaced 20' apart, would create an 80 feet long, 20 feet wide corridor of magical dim light through the Darkness.
It would be immediately dispelled as soon as part of the light touched part of the Darkness
But it's a dungeon feature so doesn't follow all the rules of the spell.
By way of contrast, the cantrip 'Dancing Lights' would work since it creates its own magical light. A string of 4 dancing lights, spaced 20' apart, would create an 80 feet long, 20 feet wide corridor of magical dim light through the Darkness.
It would be immediately dispelled as soon as part of the light touched part of the Darkness
But it's a dungeon feature so doesn't follow all the rules of the spell.
Damn, you're right. I forgot about magical light having to come from higher than a second level spell.
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Forgetting for a minute the requirement "image appears at a spot that you can see"...
Casting light is a specific characteristic called out for spells and objects. It's separately called out for spells/objects where it's not the major feature of the spell. Major illusion doesn't say anything about casting light, so I'd say it is not capable of creating its own light.
If the spell isn't creating light, the options are twofold for how the observer actually sees it -
The range stated is from the caster to the image, and not from the caster to observers - an observer could be miles away from the caster and would see the image if their vision was acute enough and they had line of sight. Any sort of charm spell has a range that applies to the distance from caster to charmed, and the higher that range, the more powerful that spell would be considered. This is only a level three spell, so a range of miles is unreasonable. I interpret this as meaning we must have the first situation. The spell is using existing light to create the illusion. This also explains the inability to increase light levels in the room.
Since the spell is using existing light, not creating it, it must be non-magical light (in the same way that boulder thrown by a spell is not a magical boulder). So it can't be seen in darkness. Perversely, if the spell weren't using light at all, and were projecting the image straight into the brain (and again, that's insanely powerful if it can modify the minds of someone miles away, even if it's to the same end) then you would be able to see it in darkness. Though again, it would cast no light.
By way of contrast, the cantrip 'Dancing Lights' would work since it creates its own magical light. A string of 4 dancing lights, spaced 20' apart, would create an 80 feet long, 20 feet wide corridor of magical dim light through the Darkness.
Of course, that's just my take, at my table. In a fictional fantasy game, the quality of an edge-case ruling like this should be measured by how consistently you apply it. If you let the players defeat darkness with major image, then the BBEG can do so also. Major image now also becomes a light source in general, so you could cast an image of a torch and use it to light your way in a dungeon, and you should figure out how much bright/dim light it is capable of casting.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
What I am saying is that Illusion come in two flavors: The kind that make actual images in space (like holograms), and the kind that put images directly in the mind’s of the observers.
I am also stating that any illusion stating it targets an area (not a creature) and creates images in that space (not within the mind of a creature) are the “hologram” type of illusions. Those spells and effects (including minor illusion, major image, and the pattern generated by an uncommon glamerweave) do not create illusions that a creature sees “in their mind” but instead actual images the creature sees with their eyes.
Whereas spells such as mental prison, fear, and phantasmal force specify that the illusions they create are specifically within the mind’s of the creatures targeted.
If it targets an area it creates an actual image, if it targets a creature it creates a mental image.
If the magical darkness still overpowers the light from the illusion that is what it is. And if the area cannot be targeted because of the magical darkness, then it is what it is. But to say that the illusions created by the spell are purely mental images when the spell explicitly states otherwise...?
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That's a much more succinct way of putting it!
Furthermore, if a PC uses a 3rd-level spell slot to cast Major Image and create an illusory torch, if that couldn’t at least function sufficiently to replicate torchlight or the light Cantrip within Major Image’s AoE, then that is absolute crap for a 3rd-level spell slot. Even if it just creates a 20-foot cube of bright light and absolutely nothing past that. (And even if the magical darkness still consumes that light. 🤷♂️)
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Exactly!
That's exactly what I was getting at in post #3!
... I'm a big advocate of "rulings over rules", even when those rulings break the rules.
...cryptographic randomness!
It would be immediately dispelled as soon as part of the light touched part of the Darkness
But it's a dungeon feature so doesn't follow all the rules of the spell.
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Damn, you're right. I forgot about magical light having to come from higher than a second level spell.