I am thinking about moving my home game to online so that I can bring in some friends who moved out of state into the fold, but I am wrestling with different advice from different sources. So I'd like to hear from some DMs who have experience with online play. 

Do you mostly use theater of the mind or do you mostly use a virtual tabletop for combat? I'm familiar with the benefits and advanatges of both at a table setting, but wonder if you all find unique challenges with either or compared to what you do at a table. The only online game I've been in as a player used r20 but things seem to go quite a bit slower on the DMs end than what i've seen her do in real life. I'm thinking I might just use r20 for fights that have a lot of moving parts to them but kind of worry about not having as much engagement without visuals.

I can't offer a lot of advice - we've mostly used virtual tabletop in my group. However, we did try theatre of the mind in the beginning. The main problem we had with it was tactical. I had to try and keep track of the distances in my head and they had no point of reference to figure out tactics. It also slowed down combat as they couldn't actually see what was happening. It's fine for small combats, but for bigger ones, I'd recommend have some kind of online map, even if it's only a picture.

Just like face-to-face I use a mix. If there's not a lot of interesting terrain, like the fight happens in a small room or open woodland, I might use theater of the mind.

The main difference is that face to face, I can quickly draw out a map on my battle mat, but it takes me a fair bit of time to set up a map on a VTT. So if the plot goes off the rails and there's an improvised combat encounter, it has to be theater of the mind. Usually I prepare one "feature" combat per session with a map that we'll probably encounter, and the rest are theater of the mind.

Quote from amril1990 >>

I am thinking about moving my home game to online so that I can bring in some friends who moved out of state into the fold, but I am wrestling with different advice from different sources. So I'd like to hear from some DMs who have experience with online play. 

Do you mostly use theater of the mind or do you mostly use a virtual tabletop for combat? I'm familiar with the benefits and advanatges of both at a table setting, but wonder if you all find unique challenges with either or compared to what you do at a table. The only online game I've been in as a player used r20 but things seem to go quite a bit slower on the DMs end than what i've seen her do in real life. I'm thinking I might just use r20 for fights that have a lot of moving parts to them but kind of worry about not having as much engagement without visuals.

I play in games that use VTTs, but the game I DM does not -- we play on Zoom, and it's either TotM for smaller skirmishes, or I use a second camera, minis and physical maps for larger battles. The group is all relatively local and was only playing online due to the plague though, so that setup was partially to facilitate eventual in-person play

As a player, I find VTTs are OK under the circumstances but they're my least favorite of the three options (physical maps, TotM, or VTT)

I prepare VTT maps for the places I am expecting to cover in a session, and will use theatre of the mind to cover anything I haven't prepared.

Theatre of the mind is more difficult online, I feel, as it is harder to gauge whether the players are listening. I would rather point to a map (annoyedly) if a player was browsing faceache instead of listening, than have to re-describe the room!

Theater of the mind for combat is tough online, especially if you can't see your players' faces. VTTs are a lot more work than just drawing a map at a table, but if you get used to the format, it doesn't have to be too bad. 

I take a middle road. Exploration is TotM, and I take care to describe my locations great detail. For combat or tricky puzzle rooms, I have a dry erase map that I whip up and then snap pictures and post so my players can see. I send updated pics of the combat map whenever a baddie goes down or something significant movement-wise happens. That seems to keep things clear enough for the players to make informed decisions while still being easy on me.

I use maps on the VTT. My former player who is now DMing to give me a break does as well.

But then, I have always been very map and miniatures focused. In Champions I always drew out every battle map in great detail. So it is not a surprise that I would do something similar in a VTT with D&D.

Theater of the Mind. Both myself and our group’ main GM use TotM, only the other frequent DM uses maps/boards.

I use Roll20 for combat. When you are experienced with it and if you have a decent internet connection, it can be faster for a DM running combat than in person rolling dice. I've run combats with large numbers of opponents that I would hesitate to run in person just because online can be more efficient for dealing with multiple opponents on the DMs side.

On the other hand, VTT doesn't help if the delay is the DM deciding what the monsters want to do next.

One reason it can seem slow is if the DM is constantly looking for the next monster sheet to roll their abilities/attacks. I either keep them open on the desktop, have them as a separate window or use the feature that iconizes them in the Roll20 game window so I can access them quickly instead of looking around for them.

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I have run the occasional combat using TotM however - usually when it can't be well represented on a map or when I expect it to be relatively short so having a separate map isn't worthwhile. I find TotM is much harder online. It is more difficult to see when a player isn't really understanding the DMs description of the scenario. Sometimes the player will come up with a course of action that makes no sense given what the DM said but makes sense to them given what they heard or interpreted. The DM then has to go over the scenario again (sometimes more than once) to make sure that all the players have the same situation in mind. Much of this confusion is avoided by using a map (whether in person or online - but online it can really make a difference in my experience).

This will often depend on the players. Some folks are more visual than others. Some folks find it easier to visualize a situation described in words than others do. ... and some DMs are better at describing things that others. These aren't unique to online play but the reduced cues in terms of personal interaction in online play make it more challenging.

TtoM vs VTT comes down to what in person play style you're adapting.  If your in person play was accustomed to battle maps and miniatures, VTT would be the way to go.  If you generally did TotM with at most a rough sketch of the scene when combat occurred, I'd use some sort of video conferencing system and either use that programs integrated whiteboard or share sketches over Googledocs or equivalent.  

If you're interested in VTT, I'd recommend checking out some recordings or live plays of groups who use various VTTs who are _not_ sponsored by said VTT to learn their particular kinks and limitations.  

Personally, I was/am generally more a TToM person and presently use Zoom, DDB, and share docs over Google/Dropbox if I need to be either visually illustrative where words fail me (ahem, rare ;) or there's enough at the scene where spatial relations are important.  I'm toying with using Word Anvil to replace Google or Dropbox, but I see that more as a "cool thing" rather than an essential improvement over Google/Drop sharing.  

"Roll trust" I understand is an issue in some online games, it's not an issue for me, but DDB has a pretty impressive dice roller and log for campaigns which I feel negates the need to use a VTT for game integrity.

The tech is still there to adapt what used to be in person to a virtual space, with potential for online play being truly different a few tech generations down the line, but presently I think you just pick the tools that do their best to accommodate your traditional in person mode of play. 

TtoM vs VTT comes down to what in person play style you're adapting.

Yes.

In tabletop we used minis basically from day 1 (because I had a few from another game, called Dungeon Dwellers, and we used those to represent our characters, and game pawns for monsters, at least at first) in D&D, and counters and hex maps for Champions. Therefore, at least for D&D and Champions, it is hard for me to imagine running a game without the equivalent of a battle-map.

I think if I tried a different RPG, say Call of Cthulhu or Savage Worlds, I would at least try to do more theater of the mind, and see how it goes. It's just that, with D&D and Champions, using maps and minis or counters is just so 2nd nature to me that I cannot picture running those games without them.

TotM is fine for one-on-one or other small fights, but if you have many different groups of enemies combating the entire party with different positioning and movement a VTT will be your friend, even if you just use a blank canvas with some tokens so people dont have to ask how far they are from the nearest/furthest enemy or how they are grouped for AoE spells

Playing online, I find myself ddrifting more towards VTT with maps than theatre of the mind. However, I do prepare "maps" which are simply images to create a mood for TotM sections. Since online play doesn't have the same depth of reading the other participants, I think it's important to have some visual cues. 

Like others, I tends to have a series of prepared maps for expected encounters. I mix that with images of known creatures/locations for mood, and i also keep a couple of completely bland square maps of different terrain types available for random encounters - I can then quickly draw contours or items of interest onto them (albeit not as fast as in a table sessions)

So when football teams and or military combined arms figure out plays etc, they'd just use a chalkboard and X's and O's (sometimes multi-agency law enforcement serve warrants serve where the final entry briefing is drawn out in the dust on the back of a task force members' car, the after action/debrief gets drawn on the hood) .  As I've earlier mentioned I think in the circumstances where some say a VTT is essential for online play, using a video conference suite or other free (i.e. Google) tech's "white board" or sketch functions work just fine and are more glitch proofed than the major VTT vendors.  You don't really need tokens and a VTT defined space unless you're very insistent on measurement (which is a fair way to play but I'm just adding that TotM works just fine in "complex" encounters, sometimes more so since the actual "play surface" can be used as a collaborative scratch pad say if there's a puzzle to figure out or something.  

I don't think if you're making Xs and Os, you're really doing TotM. You're just doing a very primitive battle map.

But this is getting more into the question of whether TotM is a good idea at all, and deviating from the question of how it's suited to online play. The answer is of course that it depends on your group's preferences.

Quote from pavilionaire >>

I don't think if you're making Xs and Os, you're really doing TotM. You're just doing a very primitive battle map.

But this is getting more into the question of whether TotM is a good idea at all, and deviating from the question of how it's suited to online play. The answer is of course that it depends on your group's preferences.

I understand what you're saying.  Maybe to clarify my thoughts, I think VTT and battle maps assert themselves as integral to those play styles.  A rough diagram or hand out isn't and is more an improvised convenience made in the moment from info at hand.  Battle maps and VTTs by their nature force more scripting into the game where a TotM can be more generative in game.  Also improvised sketching and white boarding, when needed, also can come with the blanket "not to scale".  VTT's have a stasis to them that napkin sketches just don't.  Minatures and VTTs are "sets" where the eyes and minds are focued.  A doodle is a much simpler referent and lacks the focal-point quality of VTT or battle map.   

And I agree that at the end of the day, like my initial point, it comes down to what tabletop experience you're trying to adapt.  I do think TotM currently lends to online play better in that it's by nature more forgiving, whereas VTTs at least in their present iteration have a clunkiness at least I associate with them from actual play recordings I've watched (again when researching VTTs make sure you pick some feeds where the group isn't sponsored by the VTT).  But despite that slight translation disadvantage, if you are a map and mini's gamer, VTT is pretty much the way to go.  

If moving to TotM is because you think having maps added could slow things down, I agree it does for me. I've had to tell the guys to grab a drink break for a minute whilst cobbling together a new map which really isn't ideal, but my guys really prefer to see all models on the VTT even for small fights.

An idea I've just thought of is to have an online "scribble on a napkin" compromise though, I've got a small drawing pen that can be used as a mouse, or even having a second "character" logged in on an ipad or table could work, and just having a blank screen up you could use the pen tool to scribble out a quick map to help TotM that's not to scale and all the other caveats that go with it. In Roll20 you can turn the grid off and just create a blank page and map out some starting character locations and key locations/objects. I don't know how well this will translate to drawing with a mouse, that's a pain in the butt.

I do have to agree with the other guys tho about it being less interactive online, some players might be painting models or running to the bathroom whilst you're describing something, so online does lose some of the engagement from players. Having webcams enabled would help combat that.

My group all use cameras all the time, so they can't do things like paint models without everyone else seeing -- not that I think they would.

A lot of times having the cameras on does nothing for me, since as a DM I'm usually hip deep in the VTT, my notes, etc. And unlike some of my players I only have one (if very large) monitor.

I use both together. In my last session we set up so I had 2 players who were in my living room with me, and 2 who joined by Zoom because they were quarantining after travelling abroad. It worked totally fine.

I run everything on Roll20, and it's really worth taking the time to learn how to use it well if you intend to do so. Make sure you download a Token Maker, and just make all the awesome, custom made tokens you want. I search out images on Pinterest and then just make them into great looking monsters. There are thousands of great looking maps as well. I like it so much I've moved to using Roll20 with an HDMI cable and a TV even when we're all together.

For the games in which I run the players and I use Zoom for the 'personal' interaction and Roll20 for VTT using battle maps of my own design (DungeonDraft) or if I'm using WotC adventures, I'll import the map.  I've been using this process for nearly 75 sessions over the past year and a quarter with much success.