Sometimes we have a fully imobilized PC/NPC (either be sleeping or something alike) and someone tries to just end his life. How to handle those situations? Considering that the imobilized person has 30+ HP and will not insta-die in one simple hit.
The rules say anyone imobilized would give advantage to the attack roll, which makes sense to me ONLY during combat, meaning if you have 6s to make a mortal blow against someone, I will ask to roll advantage as the book says. But sometimes that doesn't make sense, for example if someone is sleeping and I have all the time in the world and can just chopp his head off with an axe.
I was thinking about have a critical hit rolled instead, no attack roll needed.
The 3.5e had that coup de grace rule too, Idk what to do
A sleeping character is unconscious, so those rules apply. If your party wants to make sure that they instant kill a sleeping enemy, they could all attack one after the other. Should the enemy survive the first attacker's critical hit, they wake up but remain prone. They should also be surprised for obvious reasons, so they won't be able to do anything during the first round of combat. If they survive all of that, they may cry for help but they're unlikely to have a weapon to do much of anything.
If you think it's stupid for someone to survive from this, you can fix that with your narration. You could say that the PC made a sound that woke up the NPC just as the former was aiming to chop the latter's head off, allowing the NPC to move their neck out of the way, only for a less vital part to take the hit, or the NPC blocked with their arms, protecting the neck but still taking damage. What really matters is that you follow the rules when it comes to game mechanics. Narration serves as a way to make sense of those mechanics in a realistic fashion.
If you think it's stupid for someone to survive from this, you can fix that with your narration. You could say that the PC made a sound that woke up the NPC just as the former was aiming to chop the latter's head off, allowing the NPC to move their neck out of the way, only for a less vital part to take the hit, or the NPC blocked with their arms, protecting the neck but still taking damage. What really matters is that you follow the rules when it comes to game mechanics. Narration serves as a way to make sense of those mechanics in a realistic fashion
Yeah I think sometimes I want to make the rules adapt to the narration and not the other way around.
What about the AC? On 3.5e there was a -5 penalty for being imobilized (I think this is equal to the advantage rule) but the Dexterity bonus were also removed from the AC and I think this makes sense, but on 5e there's nothing about "removing dex bonus" from AC in any ocasion as far as I know
And yeah about the title I don't know what happened, when I readed it it was already posted and couldn't edit the title
If it makes sense in the narrative, I'd let it be an auto-kill so long as the PCs make their stealth rolls and all that. If the character is fully immobilized and can't escape, they are at the mercy of their captors and the rules should reflect that. I think the RAW make more sense in a true combat encounter.
I'm fine with coup de grace but the party would have to make Stealth checks to not warn anyone nearby of this happening. Someone with their throat slit won't go quietly and will resist with their remaining life force, but for rules purposes is not considered as entering combat.
As for PCs, I'd have death saving throws. They can roll a 20 and get up, or with three successes cut wasn't deep enough and while it's caused some bleeding it will clot by itself (it may however leave a nasty scar). If they die, they die.
Having said all that, this would be mentioned in Session Zero, or as close to S0 as possible. Deciding that players can have their throat slit with instant death midway through the game comes off as the DM being antagonistic toward the players moreso than the player characters.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
There is no coup de grace or instant kill rule in 5E a sleeping creature is generally prone and unconscious which mean that by default it still has the same AC and its more vulnerable and helpless by being unable to react. In addition,
An unconscious creature is incapacitated, can't move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage as well and is considered to have neither of them, rolling one d20.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.
So if we look closely, trying to defeat an unconscious creature is not automatic or instant except for STR & DEX save or die effect. While certain spells will automatically succeed, attacks will not, any melee or ranged attack at 5 feet or less will be more potent than farther away which will be normal. So melee attack within 5 feet is deadliest.
Honestly? Everything said above is correct and valid, but I would be perfectly fine hand-waving away combat and declaring "he ded" in the case of a sleeping or unconscious enemy.
That said, if you're sneaking into someone's bedchamber and they're a significant enough NPC to cause the DM anxiety over just letting the players slit their throat, then it should go without saying that it should be HARD to get access to that NPC while they're sleeping.
They should have a fortified building/manor/castle that they sleep in, they should have guards on all the entrances, exits, and patrolling the corridors, they should have locks on their doors, and alarms/traps in case any of the above fail.
If they're not rich or a leader of any kind, maybe instead they're themselves really skilled and or paranoid. Maybe they sleep with one eye open, maybe they cast the alarm spell around the perimeter anytime they go to sleep, maybe they have three dogs that bark loudly at any intruder.
If the player can get around all that security and still make it to the target's bed, then yeah, as a reward for all their good planning, prep, and stealth, then I would be fine with allowing them to insta-kill the NPC. Maybe not every time, but at least most times.
I had a similar issue when a session ended with one PC willingly giving themselves up to a fascistic city leadership, claiming to have committed a crime that they had not committed.
The penalty would be execution, or something else that ought to be brutal, but with 60+ hit points, it wouldn't really work. So I made these homebrew rules:
The following injuries can be sustained whilst incapacitated. These injuries, delivered brutally and due to a character failing to escape or willingly submitting, cannot be reversed unless noted.
Unavoidable Injuries are such that there is no attack or damage roll made. They are typically only inflicted on captives.
Beheading: Instant death. Only a Resurrection spell or similar can bring this character back to life.
Amputation: The limb is immediately lost. The limb can be regrown using regenerative magic if the wound is not cauterised.
Flogging: Determine the number of lashes sustained. For every 5 lashes taken, the maximum hit point total of the character is reduced by 1 permanently, the victim loses 5 hit points and their hit point maximum is additionally reduced by 5 on a temporary basis lasting 1 week. Only a Wish spell can restore the hit point maximum.
For me it depends on the situation more than on any rules. If they are on a stealth mission in the fortress of a dangerous enemy filled with traps, sure, let them have a sneaky solution to a problem they consider too dangerous to confront in open battle. If the player shows any signs of murder hobo like behavior, like murdering a merchant instead of buying an item, I'd instantly kick the player.
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+ Instaboot to murderhobos + I don't watch Critical Role, and no, I really shouldn't either +
Long story short : Players wants to bend rules to benefit to them alone. Find a middle ground and apply that rule to all residents of your magical world
There is a reason why players cant instantly kill enemies. Because it can happen to them in much higher rate. Think like a creature 3 times bigger than you graples you and bites your head off. Only thing you can do is save on graple if you cant say bye bye to your characters head. Say your player it is logical think to happen an he/she will say "It is just a bite attack". Players always want to be speacial and bend the rules to benefit to them.
I handled this like "If you accept instand death rules appiles everybody fine, but if you dont dont ask me again." attitude. But one of my players insisted and I came up with critical hit rules. Since if they pass their checks and can hit their target it will auto crit. I want detailed description every time they attack so I give some effects on critical hits according to their description.
Like if player says "I slit targets troat." I say "You swiftly swing your dagger and make a deep cut on targets troat. As your dagger slice trough veins blood splashes everywhere." It will take some bleeding damage scaled with his hit dice.
More detailed description gets more effects but can need other checks like "I grap his troat sense its vocal cords and slash it from there" I need a slight of hand check and if it succeeds I also silence the target. But as I say they accept that they should happen to them.
When a player is trying to do this, I don't think they're trying to cheat, they're trying to solve a problem creatively and in a way that follows logically in-universe. (Hit points are a weird abstraction if you think about it at all, but they reflect the fact that any combat warranting the term is a back-and-forth where both sides are at least trying to do something.) So, I don't think responses that involve punishing or threatening them are appropriate and I think they should be allowed to do it without argument.
But, well, if they're in hostile or unfamiliar territory and don't set a watch, they probably should have known better even if you were applying combat rules to this situation.
If there was someone on guard, they would get a perception check. But some people are light sleepers, so I see no reason not to give them a perception check vs stealth with disadvantage.
Also, please remember that elves do NOT sleep. They get full percecption, no disadvantage.
For me it also depend of the context. If a character attempt to insta-kill a commoner is a isolated area i wouldn't even bother and let it be to save time, because even if the initial attack with advantage was to miss the surprised target during the first round, chances are it won't survive round 2 anyways, especially if unarmed against a party of adventurers with no one to see or hear anything.
But under different circumstances, i'd play it by rules in case it doesn't go smoothly and there are possible complications.
I've used a coup de gras rule regularly for enemies that have been put to sleep via spell if their hitpoints are such that a single, normal hit would reasonably end their life. For us its just a game flow issue. A group of enemies with 5hp or less all magically unconscious is just dead rather than spending the next hakf hour rolling attacks and damage to bring about the exact same effect. We did that once and it just bored the hell out of everyone.
I know this is very late but you also have to consider that if someone was to use the guaranteed crit from being unconscious as the rules state it will almost always kill a normal person, any adventurer, no mater how weak of one, is a lot more durable and resilient that the average human, a knife to the throat might not be enough to kill them then, as it might not cut deep enough before they are alert.
I have no problem Modifying the Helpless Opponent rules from 3/3.5
Helpless Defenders A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.
A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).
Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Constitution save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
However, I would also inform the players now that they have invoked this rule; It can be used against you.
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Sometimes we have a fully imobilized PC/NPC (either be sleeping or something alike) and someone tries to just end his life. How to handle those situations? Considering that the imobilized person has 30+ HP and will not insta-die in one simple hit.
The rules say anyone imobilized would give advantage to the attack roll, which makes sense to me ONLY during combat, meaning if you have 6s to make a mortal blow against someone, I will ask to roll advantage as the book says. But sometimes that doesn't make sense, for example if someone is sleeping and I have all the time in the world and can just chopp his head off with an axe.
I was thinking about have a critical hit rolled instead, no attack roll needed.
The 3.5e had that coup de grace rule too, Idk what to do
Ask the players, "Are you OK with me just killing your characters in this way?"
If they say no (which is probably whay they will say) then tell them, "Well that's why the rules work they way they do."
A sleeping character is unconscious, so those rules apply. If your party wants to make sure that they instant kill a sleeping enemy, they could all attack one after the other. Should the enemy survive the first attacker's critical hit, they wake up but remain prone. They should also be surprised for obvious reasons, so they won't be able to do anything during the first round of combat. If they survive all of that, they may cry for help but they're unlikely to have a weapon to do much of anything.
If you think it's stupid for someone to survive from this, you can fix that with your narration. You could say that the PC made a sound that woke up the NPC just as the former was aiming to chop the latter's head off, allowing the NPC to move their neck out of the way, only for a less vital part to take the hit, or the NPC blocked with their arms, protecting the neck but still taking damage. What really matters is that you follow the rules when it comes to game mechanics. Narration serves as a way to make sense of those mechanics in a realistic fashion.
By the way, it's spelled throat, not "throwght".
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
Yeah I think sometimes I want to make the rules adapt to the narration and not the other way around.
What about the AC? On 3.5e there was a -5 penalty for being imobilized (I think this is equal to the advantage rule) but the Dexterity bonus were also removed from the AC and I think this makes sense, but on 5e there's nothing about "removing dex bonus" from AC in any ocasion as far as I know
And yeah about the title I don't know what happened, when I readed it it was already posted and couldn't edit the title
If it makes sense in the narrative, I'd let it be an auto-kill so long as the PCs make their stealth rolls and all that. If the character is fully immobilized and can't escape, they are at the mercy of their captors and the rules should reflect that. I think the RAW make more sense in a true combat encounter.
I'm fine with coup de grace but the party would have to make Stealth checks to not warn anyone nearby of this happening. Someone with their throat slit won't go quietly and will resist with their remaining life force, but for rules purposes is not considered as entering combat.
As for PCs, I'd have death saving throws. They can roll a 20 and get up, or with three successes cut wasn't deep enough and while it's caused some bleeding it will clot by itself (it may however leave a nasty scar). If they die, they die.
Having said all that, this would be mentioned in Session Zero, or as close to S0 as possible. Deciding that players can have their throat slit with instant death midway through the game comes off as the DM being antagonistic toward the players moreso than the player characters.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
There is no coup de grace or instant kill rule in 5E a sleeping creature is generally prone and unconscious which mean that by default it still has the same AC and its more vulnerable and helpless by being unable to react. In addition,
So if we look closely, trying to defeat an unconscious creature is not automatic or instant except for STR & DEX save or die effect. While certain spells will automatically succeed, attacks will not, any melee or ranged attack at 5 feet or less will be more potent than farther away which will be normal. So melee attack within 5 feet is deadliest.
Honestly? Everything said above is correct and valid, but I would be perfectly fine hand-waving away combat and declaring "he ded" in the case of a sleeping or unconscious enemy.
That said, if you're sneaking into someone's bedchamber and they're a significant enough NPC to cause the DM anxiety over just letting the players slit their throat, then it should go without saying that it should be HARD to get access to that NPC while they're sleeping.
They should have a fortified building/manor/castle that they sleep in, they should have guards on all the entrances, exits, and patrolling the corridors, they should have locks on their doors, and alarms/traps in case any of the above fail.
If they're not rich or a leader of any kind, maybe instead they're themselves really skilled and or paranoid. Maybe they sleep with one eye open, maybe they cast the alarm spell around the perimeter anytime they go to sleep, maybe they have three dogs that bark loudly at any intruder.
If the player can get around all that security and still make it to the target's bed, then yeah, as a reward for all their good planning, prep, and stealth, then I would be fine with allowing them to insta-kill the NPC. Maybe not every time, but at least most times.
I had a similar issue when a session ended with one PC willingly giving themselves up to a fascistic city leadership, claiming to have committed a crime that they had not committed.
The penalty would be execution, or something else that ought to be brutal, but with 60+ hit points, it wouldn't really work. So I made these homebrew rules:
Unavoidable Injuries inflicted whilst incapacitated
The following injuries can be sustained whilst incapacitated. These injuries, delivered brutally and due to a character failing to escape or willingly submitting, cannot be reversed unless noted.
Unavoidable Injuries are such that there is no attack or damage roll made. They are typically only inflicted on captives.
Beheading: Instant death. Only a Resurrection spell or similar can bring this character back to life.
Amputation: The limb is immediately lost. The limb can be regrown using regenerative magic if the wound is not cauterised.
Flogging: Determine the number of lashes sustained. For every 5 lashes taken, the maximum hit point total of the character is reduced by 1 permanently, the victim loses 5 hit points and their hit point maximum is additionally reduced by 5 on a temporary basis lasting 1 week. Only a Wish spell can restore the hit point maximum.
For me it depends on the situation more than on any rules. If they are on a stealth mission in the fortress of a dangerous enemy filled with traps, sure, let them have a sneaky solution to a problem they consider too dangerous to confront in open battle. If the player shows any signs of murder hobo like behavior, like murdering a merchant instead of buying an item, I'd instantly kick the player.
+ Instaboot to murderhobos + I don't watch Critical Role, and no, I really shouldn't either +
Long story short : Players wants to bend rules to benefit to them alone. Find a middle ground and apply that rule to all residents of your magical world
There is a reason why players cant instantly kill enemies. Because it can happen to them in much higher rate. Think like a creature 3 times bigger than you graples you and bites your head off. Only thing you can do is save on graple if you cant say bye bye to your characters head. Say your player it is logical think to happen an he/she will say "It is just a bite attack". Players always want to be speacial and bend the rules to benefit to them.
I handled this like "If you accept instand death rules appiles everybody fine, but if you dont dont ask me again." attitude. But one of my players insisted and I came up with critical hit rules. Since if they pass their checks and can hit their target it will auto crit. I want detailed description every time they attack so I give some effects on critical hits according to their description.
Like if player says "I slit targets troat." I say "You swiftly swing your dagger and make a deep cut on targets troat. As your dagger slice trough veins blood splashes everywhere." It will take some bleeding damage scaled with his hit dice.
More detailed description gets more effects but can need other checks like "I grap his troat sense its vocal cords and slash it from there" I need a slight of hand check and if it succeeds I also silence the target.
But as I say they accept that they should happen to them.
When a player is trying to do this, I don't think they're trying to cheat, they're trying to solve a problem creatively and in a way that follows logically in-universe. (Hit points are a weird abstraction if you think about it at all, but they reflect the fact that any combat warranting the term is a back-and-forth where both sides are at least trying to do something.) So, I don't think responses that involve punishing or threatening them are appropriate and I think they should be allowed to do it without argument.
But, well, if they're in hostile or unfamiliar territory and don't set a watch, they probably should have known better even if you were applying combat rules to this situation.
Medium humanoid (human), lawful neutral
If there was someone on guard, they would get a perception check. But some people are light sleepers, so I see no reason not to give them a perception check vs stealth with disadvantage.
Also, please remember that elves do NOT sleep. They get full percecption, no disadvantage.
For me it also depend of the context. If a character attempt to insta-kill a commoner is a isolated area i wouldn't even bother and let it be to save time, because even if the initial attack with advantage was to miss the surprised target during the first round, chances are it won't survive round 2 anyways, especially if unarmed against a party of adventurers with no one to see or hear anything.
But under different circumstances, i'd play it by rules in case it doesn't go smoothly and there are possible complications.
I've used a coup de gras rule regularly for enemies that have been put to sleep via spell if their hitpoints are such that a single, normal hit would reasonably end their life. For us its just a game flow issue. A group of enemies with 5hp or less all magically unconscious is just dead rather than spending the next hakf hour rolling attacks and damage to bring about the exact same effect. We did that once and it just bored the hell out of everyone.
I know this is very late but you also have to consider that if someone was to use the guaranteed crit from being unconscious as the rules state it will almost always kill a normal person, any adventurer, no mater how weak of one, is a lot more durable and resilient that the average human, a knife to the throat might not be enough to kill them then, as it might not cut deep enough before they are alert.
I have no problem Modifying the Helpless Opponent rules from 3/3.5
Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack
A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.
A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).
Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Constitution save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
However, I would also inform the players now that they have invoked this rule; It can be used against you.