So i am running a homebrew world that I had planned to be mostly fantasy like rope and pulley systems being the most 'advanced tech' with magic covering some of the gaps.
However I have a player trying to come up with so many things to try and industrialise the world.
Examples
A gun. I ended up allowing this one as it's essentially a reflavoured long bow and she uses magic to create a burst of flame in the tube and firing the projectile (and I think that was the real start of the problems now in hindsight)
She also wants to create steam engines and such, oh and she is a ranger not an artificer.
What I am thinking of doing to soften the impact is that if they want to make this stuff they will need lots of downtime and there will be trial and error with DC checks (high at first but lower as time goes on) material costs and such. So that eventually they can have the stuff but not straight away and essentially derailing not the campaign but the entire world I'm building up and give it time to slowly introduce having machines and such in the world.
So I think you have a couple of options, depending on how your play style is as well
1) Go deeply nerdy on why technological advancements are hard. E.g. creating a basic concept of a steam engine on a small scale is probably not that hard. The hard bit comes in the manufacturing, scaling up, and backing from influential people to actually adopt the technology - and this whole line of industrial logistics is not part of D&D! Hopefully that should become apparent once the character don't have time to do both - and will hopefully stick with the adventuring day job :)
2) Speak to your player OOC and explain that it feels more like meta-gaming of bringing knowledge into the fantasy world that the character wouldn't feasibly be in posession of or interested in, while the player has a lot of knowledge of industrial inventions that could be handy (albeit, when you have magic and gods - I'm not even sure industrialisation would automatically win)
I think allowing players to bring some little ideas in are fine, but if it starts spinning out of control and derailing the whole setting, you need to get it dialled down, either through some very direct RP, or perhaps simpler an out of game conversation with the players.
As soon as they begin asking about making steam engines, I would ask them how and why their characters would know about such things. They do not exist, so they are an invention, and the character is a ranger, not an artificer.
If they gave me a convinging enough reason behind, it, I would ask them to dedicate a lot of downtime to the pursuit of their goal. They cannot simply make one over a long rest! They will need to source materials, and machining - making a large bore perfectly circular hole in a piece of metal is difficult! will they cast the parts, in which case they need Red sand (which is not just any sand). How will they make it all turn properly? They will need bearings, so they will need to seek out a blacksmith who makes such things and can work to such precision. They will need to order raw material and wait for it to arrive. They will need to spend months putting this all together - and they also need to accept that early steam engines exploded with some regularity. They might spend months of downtime between missions on this endeavour, only for it to literally blow up in their face, and them need a new character.
I would nip it in the bud by letting their first bit of downtime show that this would clearly require them to quit adventuring, and let them decide if they want their character to change the world as an NPC, or save it as a PC.
However I have a player trying to come up with so many things to try and industrialise the world.
Favorite DM question, "Why/how does your character know that?" You have a player who built a ranger, and presumably has a background/backstory to support this. They have proficiency in survival because they spent a lot of time in the wild, a favored enemy for other reasons, etc.
Even if you have a player running a Tinker gnome, they're not going to jumpstart the industrial revolution by themselves. The history of the advancement of any technology is not a straight line but a whole host of failures and false starts. Edison did not come up with the idea of a lightbulb out of thin air, he refined only one part of it. Electricity, glass bulbs, electric infrastructure, metallurgy, and probably half a dozen other things that I don't even know are important to the building of the lightbulb. As far as guns go, a lot of people died over a lot of years trying to get the "magic" to launch a projectile without making their "tubes" explode. And that's just one issue.
Personally, I'm pretty strict in my games about keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate. Also, don't forget that you're allowed to say, "That didn't work."
Personally, I have a slightly different take... hear me out.
I think you have a golden opportunity here if handled well. It sounds to me you currently have an excited and engaged player in your group who wants to explore an idea. However, if you continue to shut them down, you run the very real risk of turning them off to your game.
Quick question...does their Ranger have a high INT?
Personally I would approach the topic as such:
1) Firstly, I would talk to your player OOG. I would let them know the vibe of your world and what you are going for Tech wise. Then I would let them know (assuming your ok with this) that you are ok with them coming up with "inventions" and not poo poo their creative ideas. However, they have to have some buy in as a player to try and separate META versus in game (going back to how does your PC know this).
2) After you talk to them, I would work with them about putting together a simple "inspiration" system any time the PLAYER has idea. It could be as simple as "roll a d20+INT Mod" on a 20 or higher you are struck with inspiration for this new invention. On a fail, nothing happens and they cannot try again for that item. It's as if the PC is so accustomed to its use they don't think of its improvement or whatnot. This way they don't get to just do every thing they want all the time, but when they do they feel like they "earned it" and it feels more authentic.
3) Now that they are inspired, they do not have the means or skill to craft such an item, and will need to seek out someone who does. Depending on the complexity of the idea and or object it may be as simple as a local blacksmith or a renowned Artificer.
4) Now you have player specific side quest material (which can help others at the table start creating their own stories and quest and help build excitement and engagement) where they seek out these people. Additionally, maybe the artificer can create it but needs a rare ore, and thus another quest is spawned. Perhaps they begin to build a reputation as a renowned inventor, seeing their inventions actively changing the world or in use all over the realm. Perhaps artificers and smiths seek THEM out in hopes of working with the Great "insert PC name here". Maybe they become the Eli Whitney of their day... Thus, the status quo of the realm is shaken to its core, leading to outright war because of the imbalance of power created by this most recent invention. Or riots erupt over the mass unemployment created by the displaced farmhands?
Over time your ultimately allowing your players to alter the world their in. Giving them a sense of accomplishment and helping to solidify verisimilitude. They will appreciate it and you will likely find it will dump a massive amount of content fodder in your lap.
+1 to andronocus. Why would a ranger know anything about engines, steam or otherwise? How would they conceive of such a thing? What skill and tool proficiencies do they have to be able to forge the metal strong enough to hold the steam at pressure and release it in a way that makes power but doesn’t explode. In short, tell them that’s player knowledge, not character knowledge, and they should stop metagaming. Then move on, don’t debate it with them
If a character wanted to invent some kind of water wheel using a flowing river for power, that might be something I’d allow, but a steam engine is right out.
I generally do not allow science in my fantasy worlds. Meaning that physics doesn't work in them, the basic rules of reality are based on magic that give the same general feel of the real world, but are not based on the same principle. Cells do not exist, but physiology is generally true. Atoms and molecules don't exist, but substances exist and alchemy works.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So i am running a homebrew world that I had planned to be mostly fantasy like rope and pulley systems being the most 'advanced tech' with magic covering some of the gaps.
However I have a player trying to come up with so many things to try and industrialise the world.
Examples
A gun. I ended up allowing this one as it's essentially a reflavoured long bow and she uses magic to create a burst of flame in the tube and firing the projectile (and I think that was the real start of the problems now in hindsight)
She also wants to create steam engines and such, oh and she is a ranger not an artificer.
What I am thinking of doing to soften the impact is that if they want to make this stuff they will need lots of downtime and there will be trial and error with DC checks (high at first but lower as time goes on) material costs and such. So that eventually they can have the stuff but not straight away and essentially derailing not the campaign but the entire world I'm building up and give it time to slowly introduce having machines and such in the world.
The first question I would ask is “Is this in character?” If not, then no. If it is, then she can deal with all the headaches that come with being a visionary in a world where the most advanced technology are alongside the pulley system. There will be a lot of criticism, doubt, mockery, etc. People in real life were even killed for having ideas that pushed boundaries. And of course, there is the matter of whether the technology exists for her to build any of her contraptions; the technology available to make the things she wants seems unavailable. History shows that invention starts slow, frustratingly slow… generations in some cases. She imagines zipping around on a steam-powered car, but it took hundreds of years for the steam engine to go from concept to functional tool.
Ultimately, her PC has to exist and operate within the boundaries of your world.
1) Does technology fit in your world and do you want it? If the answer is NO, have an OOC chat with the player regarding technology.
2) Even if you are open to the character designing devices ... is this in character? Where did the character receive their engineering training? Where did they hear of steam engines? How do they even know that boiling water can be harnessed to operate devices?
Simple steam devices existed in Alexandria more than 2000 years ago but they were novelties (A sphere with water and a couple of venturis that would spin on its axis when heated up). The knowledge and insight needed to turn the concept of boiling water into a steam engine did not exist then or at least wasn't applied.
It can be fun for a player to come with anachronisms for a fantasy society but for most of these it doesn't make sense. The gun you mention is another example. Does the world even have fireworks? How would the character know that if they mix certain chemicals in a certain ratio you get a combustible powder that could be used to push a projectile? Producing usable gun powder is the result of a long process - figuring out what makes gunpowder, figuring out ratios, testing various ignition ideas, trying other chemicals to see if they work better. However, without an idea of how things fit together, eg combustion, it becomes a very time consuimg process of trial and error. The early development of technology took centuries through the renaissance. It wasn't fast.
-----
As a further example, assume a diety gave the character a vision of a steam engine and some clue as to how it works, how would they go about building it? They will have to research steel and the most appropriate materials for the pressure chamber. They will need to have pistons and other elements custom made and they will all need to fit together perfectly. All of this in a world where no one knows how to create the things the character is imagining. They may need to develop blueprints and explain how they work. They might have to overcome the resistance of the guilds who might control different sorts of knowledge. They might need to overcome the resistance of religious orders who think of such outlandish ideas as insanity or the work of a devil or demon.
Ultimately, it is your world, and you can allow the character to achieve as much or as little as you like but you might want to have an out of character chat with the player explaining the many difficulties in producing even basic technological goods without a society that can and will support those efforts.
If they want to metagame knowledge of science of our world into a fantasy world, you can just say that's not how this world works.
Have them attempt to make one and have it rip a portal into the plane of air and summon a steam mepphit with every stroke of the engine, or a steam elemental. Then you have a pretty good explanation of why steam engines don't already exists.
You can just say the amount of time, effort, cost, know how, precession manufacturing doesn't exist or that the character doesn't have it. The chances of an adventurer on the road in a quasi medieval society having the resources and know how to do this seems pretty low/ no existent.
There's one thing you need to tell them. One sentence, nay, one word, that they ought to understand. This word holds power, just as you, the DM, hold power. More powerful than Power Word Pain, more powerful than Power Word Kill. Just one word:
No.
Jokes aside, this is important. You need to flat-out, straight to the face, tell this player that there is no kind of modern technology in your campaign. This world is medieval fantasy. No exceptions. If you don't directly address the issue, the tension can and will build over time, creating an unpleasant friction between this player and the rest of the group. If you don't want to directly confront this specific player, then speak to the party as a whole. Make sure everyone understands what is and isn't allowed in this world. If the problem persists, then please speak with this player in private. Talk to them about the setting, about the fact that they're a ranger, about party balance, about meta-gaming shenanigans (which this TECHNICALLY is, using outside knowledge in-game). But above all, tell them no.
The ability to say NO is one of the most important skills a DM, parent, or friend can have.
She also wants to create steam engines and such, oh and she is a ranger not an artificer.
What I am thinking of doing to soften the impact is that if they want to make this stuff they will need lots of downtime and there will be trial and error with DC checks (high at first but lower as time goes on) material costs and such. So that eventually they can have the stuff but not straight away and essentially derailing not the campaign but the entire world I'm building up and give it time to slowly introduce having machines and such in the world.
If the player wants their character to be devoted to inventing things in a world, maybe offer them the opportunity to create said world and invite you to play a game set in it. Otherwise, you might mention that NPCs are traditionally suited to creating magic items in games and if they would like, they can remand that PC over to you to so that you can run the NPCs of your world. Otherwise, adventurers and heroes might need to be free to adventure, and y'know....heroic things.
Simply put, you might offer them the opportunity to run their own game, or create a new character that fits into the world that your game is set in. They can do both. Maybe not at the same time, in the same space. A player's first task is to create a character that fits into the world, and has a reason to be involved in the adventure. It the player cannot, or will not, adhere to this guideline, you are absolutely within your right to ask them to leave, or flatly refuse their PC.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Saying NO is a very hard thing to do, I have talked with the player and we came to a compromise, they can TRY to make these devices, the reason he made for the character being inventive is partially because they were raised by royalty and had some expensive tutors that taught them stuff, magic and science and that they mess around with stuff. However I made it clear that if they try to make this stuff there will be A LOT of DC checks and that there is chances of failure and at times there will be set backs and of course money is an issue, to refine things and get materials.
This way it takes time and doesn't derail the world, I was intending to have tech slowly introduced into the world much later (simple clockwork stuff), so this works out fine as long as we keep it within reason. Hopefully things should go well, thanks for the advice everyone
the reason he made for the character being inventive is partially because they were raised by royalty and had some expensive tutors that taught them stuff, magic and science and that they mess around with stuff.
Why would they have been taught about "science" in this world of fantasy and magic?
Clockwork stuff in D&D is generaly associated with Mechanus (LN plane), rather than being invented by humanoids?
I would still expect a player to have some levels in Artificer if they want to be inventing any "tech".
The individual in question can either play by the rules of your DD world or the player can go elsewhere.
You are running the game ie DM. Ive been playing DD for well over 35 years. Players always try to get the DM to do things they want. Most of the time you just say NO.
i think what i'd do is have this player run across someone else who is doing this already but better. have that person demonstrate a multitude of problems, failures, and... work-arounds. rather than steam or electricity, i think my version of this mentor would lean on "infernal" technology as seen in Discworld novels. want to know the time? a small captive fey or miniature imp is bound by contract to tell you the time and keep your appointments. want to take a picture? the bound spirit paints quickly what they see. something like "malicious compliance" comes to mind as a drawback. but, on the more violent end, how long can they contain the thing that powers their iron ox cart?
what are the ethics involved? what are the downfalls of powering your workshop with, essentially, evil? how accepting is the local paladin regarding this infernal tech? are the druids sniffing around for the source of some detected rift? is it really just about experimentation or is something guiding the inventor's hand to things they have less control over? when the duke hears about rifles of fire that rival longbows will they react with greed or call in a wizard strike before peasantry is armed?
I'm an engineer by trade and i could absolutely see going down the "your imperfectly machined parts reach a temperature they were not designed for" rabbit hole. even easier is to separate the character from their forge and lathe to travel the high seas or climb a mountain. however, as a storyteller i'm more interested in funneling the character's genuine interests through the lens of right and wrong with shades-of-grey moral decisions that have no right answer. if a player wants to play Spock at my ren fair, well, that's fine but they're going to have to put up with standing out, irreplaceable tech, and the irrepressible wisdom of the old ways.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
the reason he made for the character being inventive is partially because they were raised by royalty and had some expensive tutors that taught them stuff, magic and science and that they mess around with stuff.
Why would they have been taught about "science" in this world of fantasy and magic?
Clockwork stuff in D&D is generaly associated with Mechanus (LN plane), rather than being invented by humanoids?
I would still expect a player to have some levels in Artificer if they want to be inventing any "tech".
These are all world building questions and up to the DM to decide how their worlds work.
1) If the vast majority do not have access to magic they need to find other ways to do things.They could do all of these by hand but it is more time consuming and results in a society that doesn't have much time for magic, adventuring, or knowledge since the majority of the citizens are spending their time trying to survive. Carrying water from the river to the fields for irrigation. Grinding grain by hand with a rock so they can make flour for bread. However, if you want steel, forged metals, plate armor, and all the associated medieval items that D&D seems to come equipped with then there is a basic level of "science and technology" that enables the production of those goods and a merchant class to distribute them.
A screw for lifting water from the river to the fields, wind mills and water mills for grinding grain, mining, smelting, forging, forestry - cutting down trees efficiently, getting them to market, cuttting them into boards or other appropriate shapes. Wooden objects are not usually sculpted out of a solid piece of wood. Sawing wood to make furniture requires saws which requires blacksmiths to make the saws and other tools which requires miners and mining to obtain the ore and smelt it so it can be used.
The bottom line is that most D&D societies would likely have some level of science and technology (up to the DM) unless magic is so prevalent and accessible that it would replace these tasks that people have to do every day. So having a character versed in the "science" of their world would not be surprising.
However, what level of science that is - is up to the DM. In addition, if the person creating the character did not choose relevant skills to be proficient with to represent their education (nature and arcana?) then as DM I'd just say he learned some but retained less.
2) Clockwork stuff is associated with whatever the DM wants to associate it with. Personally, I've never used Mechanus in any of my games and probably never would because it just doesn't fit with how I do world building. If I did want to create a plane populated by sentient mechanisms, it would not be clockworks, it would likely be far more technological in orientation.
3) Artificer would seem be the natural fit for this rather than Ranger but Artificers use magic to create and power their devices rather than technology so I wouldn't exclude the possibility if the player had invested in the relevant skills and stats to create such a character.
e.g. A ranger with at least 14 int and proficiency in two of nature, history, arcana. There isn't a "tech" skill though magic probably comes the closest so the character would learn about how things work in the real world (nature) and combine that with knowledge of how things were done in the past (history) or the logical precepts of magic (arcana) which might also be applicable to developing technology.
To the OP, sometimes it is easiest to just say No and sometimes it is necessary to say No. If the player tries to turn this sideline into the main focus of their character you may need to have the discussion again. When the DM says there will be lots of skill checks, the player hears that there is a chance of success, that their dreams of driving a steam carriage armed with an assault rifle might come true, while the DM is actually saying "It's never going to happen". This might be an issue down the road or it might not.
-----
Finally, if I was building a character that I wanted to have develop technology as a sideline, I would probably start with one level of knowledge cleric for expertise in two knowledge skills followed by Artificer. Unfortunately, none of the Artificer sub classes are ideal for this type of character but I would probably go with Battlesmith since they have already created their companion. The character could then be played as a person interested in finding solutions for the common people. They themselves can use magic to attain similar effects but this is not available to most.
Consistently telling your players flat out NO... is bad advise.
I am genuinely surprised by the amount of posters here advising you to just flat out say "NO",and to shut your player down hard.
DND is at its core a game of make believe and improv... at their root, your responses should come in 2 versions: Yes, and... No, but....
When she put forth the idea about steam engines...Admittedly, that's likely well to advanced at this stage for your world... rather than simply saying...NO! Consider a response along the lines of:
"No, a steam engine is far to advanced at this stage of development, but maybe something closer to the current tech level? Perhaps something like the corkscrew, or maybe a hydraulic lift at the docks that simply fills a chamber when the tide comes in causing it to rise."
after all... the Romans had indoor pluming nearly 2000 years ago...
So i am running a homebrew world that I had planned to be mostly fantasy like rope and pulley systems being the most 'advanced tech' with magic covering some of the gaps.
However I have a player trying to come up with so many things to try and industrialise the world.
Examples
A gun. I ended up allowing this one as it's essentially a reflavoured long bow and she uses magic to create a burst of flame in the tube and firing the projectile (and I think that was the real start of the problems now in hindsight)
She also wants to create steam engines and such, oh and she is a ranger not an artificer.
What I am thinking of doing to soften the impact is that if they want to make this stuff they will need lots of downtime and there will be trial and error with DC checks (high at first but lower as time goes on) material costs and such. So that eventually they can have the stuff but not straight away and essentially derailing not the campaign but the entire world I'm building up and give it time to slowly introduce having machines and such in the world.
So I think you have a couple of options, depending on how your play style is as well
1) Go deeply nerdy on why technological advancements are hard. E.g. creating a basic concept of a steam engine on a small scale is probably not that hard. The hard bit comes in the manufacturing, scaling up, and backing from influential people to actually adopt the technology - and this whole line of industrial logistics is not part of D&D!
Hopefully that should become apparent once the character don't have time to do both - and will hopefully stick with the adventuring day job :)
2) Speak to your player OOC and explain that it feels more like meta-gaming of bringing knowledge into the fantasy world that the character wouldn't feasibly be in posession of or interested in, while the player has a lot of knowledge of industrial inventions that could be handy (albeit, when you have magic and gods - I'm not even sure industrialisation would automatically win)
I think allowing players to bring some little ideas in are fine, but if it starts spinning out of control and derailing the whole setting, you need to get it dialled down, either through some very direct RP, or perhaps simpler an out of game conversation with the players.
As soon as they begin asking about making steam engines, I would ask them how and why their characters would know about such things. They do not exist, so they are an invention, and the character is a ranger, not an artificer.
If they gave me a convinging enough reason behind, it, I would ask them to dedicate a lot of downtime to the pursuit of their goal. They cannot simply make one over a long rest! They will need to source materials, and machining - making a large bore perfectly circular hole in a piece of metal is difficult! will they cast the parts, in which case they need Red sand (which is not just any sand). How will they make it all turn properly? They will need bearings, so they will need to seek out a blacksmith who makes such things and can work to such precision. They will need to order raw material and wait for it to arrive. They will need to spend months putting this all together - and they also need to accept that early steam engines exploded with some regularity. They might spend months of downtime between missions on this endeavour, only for it to literally blow up in their face, and them need a new character.
I would nip it in the bud by letting their first bit of downtime show that this would clearly require them to quit adventuring, and let them decide if they want their character to change the world as an NPC, or save it as a PC.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Favorite DM question, "Why/how does your character know that?" You have a player who built a ranger, and presumably has a background/backstory to support this. They have proficiency in survival because they spent a lot of time in the wild, a favored enemy for other reasons, etc.
Even if you have a player running a Tinker gnome, they're not going to jumpstart the industrial revolution by themselves. The history of the advancement of any technology is not a straight line but a whole host of failures and false starts. Edison did not come up with the idea of a lightbulb out of thin air, he refined only one part of it. Electricity, glass bulbs, electric infrastructure, metallurgy, and probably half a dozen other things that I don't even know are important to the building of the lightbulb. As far as guns go, a lot of people died over a lot of years trying to get the "magic" to launch a projectile without making their "tubes" explode. And that's just one issue.
Personally, I'm pretty strict in my games about keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate. Also, don't forget that you're allowed to say, "That didn't work."
Personally, I have a slightly different take... hear me out.
I think you have a golden opportunity here if handled well. It sounds to me you currently have an excited and engaged player in your group who wants to explore an idea. However, if you continue to shut them down, you run the very real risk of turning them off to your game.
Quick question...does their Ranger have a high INT?
Personally I would approach the topic as such:
1) Firstly, I would talk to your player OOG. I would let them know the vibe of your world and what you are going for Tech wise. Then I would let them know (assuming your ok with this) that you are ok with them coming up with "inventions" and not poo poo their creative ideas. However, they have to have some buy in as a player to try and separate META versus in game (going back to how does your PC know this).
2) After you talk to them, I would work with them about putting together a simple "inspiration" system any time the PLAYER has idea. It could be as simple as "roll a d20+INT Mod" on a 20 or higher you are struck with inspiration for this new invention. On a fail, nothing happens and they cannot try again for that item. It's as if the PC is so accustomed to its use they don't think of its improvement or whatnot. This way they don't get to just do every thing they want all the time, but when they do they feel like they "earned it" and it feels more authentic.
3) Now that they are inspired, they do not have the means or skill to craft such an item, and will need to seek out someone who does. Depending on the complexity of the idea and or object it may be as simple as a local blacksmith or a renowned Artificer.
4) Now you have player specific side quest material (which can help others at the table start creating their own stories and quest and help build excitement and engagement) where they seek out these people. Additionally, maybe the artificer can create it but needs a rare ore, and thus another quest is spawned. Perhaps they begin to build a reputation as a renowned inventor, seeing their inventions actively changing the world or in use all over the realm. Perhaps artificers and smiths seek THEM out in hopes of working with the Great "insert PC name here". Maybe they become the Eli Whitney of their day... Thus, the status quo of the realm is shaken to its core, leading to outright war because of the imbalance of power created by this most recent invention. Or riots erupt over the mass unemployment created by the displaced farmhands?
Over time your ultimately allowing your players to alter the world their in. Giving them a sense of accomplishment and helping to solidify verisimilitude. They will appreciate it and you will likely find it will dump a massive amount of content fodder in your lap.
+1 to andronocus.
Why would a ranger know anything about engines, steam or otherwise? How would they conceive of such a thing? What skill and tool proficiencies do they have to be able to forge the metal strong enough to hold the steam at pressure and release it in a way that makes power but doesn’t explode.
In short, tell them that’s player knowledge, not character knowledge, and they should stop metagaming. Then move on, don’t debate it with them
If a character wanted to invent some kind of water wheel using a flowing river for power, that might be something I’d allow, but a steam engine is right out.
I generally do not allow science in my fantasy worlds. Meaning that physics doesn't work in them, the basic rules of reality are based on magic that give the same general feel of the real world, but are not based on the same principle. Cells do not exist, but physiology is generally true. Atoms and molecules don't exist, but substances exist and alchemy works.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The first question I would ask is “Is this in character?” If not, then no. If it is, then she can deal with all the headaches that come with being a visionary in a world where the most advanced technology are alongside the pulley system. There will be a lot of criticism, doubt, mockery, etc. People in real life were even killed for having ideas that pushed boundaries. And of course, there is the matter of whether the technology exists for her to build any of her contraptions; the technology available to make the things she wants seems unavailable. History shows that invention starts slow, frustratingly slow… generations in some cases. She imagines zipping around on a steam-powered car, but it took hundreds of years for the steam engine to go from concept to functional tool.
Ultimately, her PC has to exist and operate within the boundaries of your world.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
There are a few things to consider.
1) Does technology fit in your world and do you want it? If the answer is NO, have an OOC chat with the player regarding technology.
2) Even if you are open to the character designing devices ... is this in character? Where did the character receive their engineering training? Where did they hear of steam engines? How do they even know that boiling water can be harnessed to operate devices?
Simple steam devices existed in Alexandria more than 2000 years ago but they were novelties (A sphere with water and a couple of venturis that would spin on its axis when heated up). The knowledge and insight needed to turn the concept of boiling water into a steam engine did not exist then or at least wasn't applied.
It can be fun for a player to come with anachronisms for a fantasy society but for most of these it doesn't make sense. The gun you mention is another example. Does the world even have fireworks? How would the character know that if they mix certain chemicals in a certain ratio you get a combustible powder that could be used to push a projectile? Producing usable gun powder is the result of a long process - figuring out what makes gunpowder, figuring out ratios, testing various ignition ideas, trying other chemicals to see if they work better. However, without an idea of how things fit together, eg combustion, it becomes a very time consuimg process of trial and error. The early development of technology took centuries through the renaissance. It wasn't fast.
-----
As a further example, assume a diety gave the character a vision of a steam engine and some clue as to how it works, how would they go about building it? They will have to research steel and the most appropriate materials for the pressure chamber. They will need to have pistons and other elements custom made and they will all need to fit together perfectly. All of this in a world where no one knows how to create the things the character is imagining. They may need to develop blueprints and explain how they work. They might have to overcome the resistance of the guilds who might control different sorts of knowledge. They might need to overcome the resistance of religious orders who think of such outlandish ideas as insanity or the work of a devil or demon.
Ultimately, it is your world, and you can allow the character to achieve as much or as little as you like but you might want to have an out of character chat with the player explaining the many difficulties in producing even basic technological goods without a society that can and will support those efforts.
The thing about steam engines in a world without them is that prototypes tend to catastrophically fail.
Sometimes, it's ok to just say no.
If they want to metagame knowledge of science of our world into a fantasy world, you can just say that's not how this world works.
Have them attempt to make one and have it rip a portal into the plane of air and summon a steam mepphit with every stroke of the engine, or a steam elemental. Then you have a pretty good explanation of why steam engines don't already exists.
You can just say the amount of time, effort, cost, know how, precession manufacturing doesn't exist or that the character doesn't have it. The chances of an adventurer on the road in a quasi medieval society having the resources and know how to do this seems pretty low/ no existent.
There's one thing you need to tell them. One sentence, nay, one word, that they ought to understand. This word holds power, just as you, the DM, hold power. More powerful than Power Word Pain, more powerful than Power Word Kill. Just one word:
No.
Jokes aside, this is important. You need to flat-out, straight to the face, tell this player that there is no kind of modern technology in your campaign. This world is medieval fantasy. No exceptions. If you don't directly address the issue, the tension can and will build over time, creating an unpleasant friction between this player and the rest of the group. If you don't want to directly confront this specific player, then speak to the party as a whole. Make sure everyone understands what is and isn't allowed in this world. If the problem persists, then please speak with this player in private. Talk to them about the setting, about the fact that they're a ranger, about party balance, about meta-gaming shenanigans (which this TECHNICALLY is, using outside knowledge in-game). But above all, tell them no.
The ability to say NO is one of the most important skills a DM, parent, or friend can have.
If the player wants their character to be devoted to inventing things in a world, maybe offer them the opportunity to create said world and invite you to play a game set in it. Otherwise, you might mention that NPCs are traditionally suited to creating magic items in games and if they would like, they can remand that PC over to you to so that you can run the NPCs of your world. Otherwise, adventurers and heroes might need to be free to adventure, and y'know....heroic things.
Simply put, you might offer them the opportunity to run their own game, or create a new character that fits into the world that your game is set in. They can do both. Maybe not at the same time, in the same space. A player's first task is to create a character that fits into the world, and has a reason to be involved in the adventure. It the player cannot, or will not, adhere to this guideline, you are absolutely within your right to ask them to leave, or flatly refuse their PC.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Saying NO is a very hard thing to do, I have talked with the player and we came to a compromise, they can TRY to make these devices, the reason he made for the character being inventive is partially because they were raised by royalty and had some expensive tutors that taught them stuff, magic and science and that they mess around with stuff. However I made it clear that if they try to make this stuff there will be A LOT of DC checks and that there is chances of failure and at times there will be set backs and of course money is an issue, to refine things and get materials.
This way it takes time and doesn't derail the world, I was intending to have tech slowly introduced into the world much later (simple clockwork stuff), so this works out fine as long as we keep it within reason. Hopefully things should go well, thanks for the advice everyone
Make Aristotelian physics a true description of reality?
Why would they have been taught about "science" in this world of fantasy and magic?
Clockwork stuff in D&D is generaly associated with Mechanus (LN plane), rather than being invented by humanoids?
I would still expect a player to have some levels in Artificer if they want to be inventing any "tech".
The individual in question can either play by the rules of your DD world or the player can go elsewhere.
You are running the game ie DM. Ive been playing DD for well over 35 years. Players always try to get the DM to do things they want. Most of the time you just say NO.
i think what i'd do is have this player run across someone else who is doing this already but better. have that person demonstrate a multitude of problems, failures, and... work-arounds. rather than steam or electricity, i think my version of this mentor would lean on "infernal" technology as seen in Discworld novels. want to know the time? a small captive fey or miniature imp is bound by contract to tell you the time and keep your appointments. want to take a picture? the bound spirit paints quickly what they see. something like "malicious compliance" comes to mind as a drawback. but, on the more violent end, how long can they contain the thing that powers their iron ox cart?
what are the ethics involved? what are the downfalls of powering your workshop with, essentially, evil? how accepting is the local paladin regarding this infernal tech? are the druids sniffing around for the source of some detected rift? is it really just about experimentation or is something guiding the inventor's hand to things they have less control over? when the duke hears about rifles of fire that rival longbows will they react with greed or call in a wizard strike before peasantry is armed?
I'm an engineer by trade and i could absolutely see going down the "your imperfectly machined parts reach a temperature they were not designed for" rabbit hole. even easier is to separate the character from their forge and lathe to travel the high seas or climb a mountain. however, as a storyteller i'm more interested in funneling the character's genuine interests through the lens of right and wrong with shades-of-grey moral decisions that have no right answer. if a player wants to play Spock at my ren fair, well, that's fine but they're going to have to put up with standing out, irreplaceable tech, and the irrepressible wisdom of the old ways.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
These are all world building questions and up to the DM to decide how their worlds work.
1) If the vast majority do not have access to magic they need to find other ways to do things.They could do all of these by hand but it is more time consuming and results in a society that doesn't have much time for magic, adventuring, or knowledge since the majority of the citizens are spending their time trying to survive. Carrying water from the river to the fields for irrigation. Grinding grain by hand with a rock so they can make flour for bread. However, if you want steel, forged metals, plate armor, and all the associated medieval items that D&D seems to come equipped with then there is a basic level of "science and technology" that enables the production of those goods and a merchant class to distribute them.
A screw for lifting water from the river to the fields, wind mills and water mills for grinding grain, mining, smelting, forging, forestry - cutting down trees efficiently, getting them to market, cuttting them into boards or other appropriate shapes. Wooden objects are not usually sculpted out of a solid piece of wood. Sawing wood to make furniture requires saws which requires blacksmiths to make the saws and other tools which requires miners and mining to obtain the ore and smelt it so it can be used.
The bottom line is that most D&D societies would likely have some level of science and technology (up to the DM) unless magic is so prevalent and accessible that it would replace these tasks that people have to do every day. So having a character versed in the "science" of their world would not be surprising.
However, what level of science that is - is up to the DM. In addition, if the person creating the character did not choose relevant skills to be proficient with to represent their education (nature and arcana?) then as DM I'd just say he learned some but retained less.
2) Clockwork stuff is associated with whatever the DM wants to associate it with. Personally, I've never used Mechanus in any of my games and probably never would because it just doesn't fit with how I do world building. If I did want to create a plane populated by sentient mechanisms, it would not be clockworks, it would likely be far more technological in orientation.
3) Artificer would seem be the natural fit for this rather than Ranger but Artificers use magic to create and power their devices rather than technology so I wouldn't exclude the possibility if the player had invested in the relevant skills and stats to create such a character.
e.g. A ranger with at least 14 int and proficiency in two of nature, history, arcana. There isn't a "tech" skill though magic probably comes the closest so the character would learn about how things work in the real world (nature) and combine that with knowledge of how things were done in the past (history) or the logical precepts of magic (arcana) which might also be applicable to developing technology.
To the OP, sometimes it is easiest to just say No and sometimes it is necessary to say No. If the player tries to turn this sideline into the main focus of their character you may need to have the discussion again. When the DM says there will be lots of skill checks, the player hears that there is a chance of success, that their dreams of driving a steam carriage armed with an assault rifle might come true, while the DM is actually saying "It's never going to happen". This might be an issue down the road or it might not.
-----
Finally, if I was building a character that I wanted to have develop technology as a sideline, I would probably start with one level of knowledge cleric for expertise in two knowledge skills followed by Artificer. Unfortunately, none of the Artificer sub classes are ideal for this type of character but I would probably go with Battlesmith since they have already created their companion. The character could then be played as a person interested in finding solutions for the common people. They themselves can use magic to attain similar effects but this is not available to most.
"HOT TAKE INCOMING"
Consistently telling your players flat out NO... is bad advise.
I am genuinely surprised by the amount of posters here advising you to just flat out say "NO", and to shut your player down hard.
DND is at its core a game of make believe and improv... at their root, your responses should come in 2 versions: Yes, and... No, but....
When she put forth the idea about steam engines...Admittedly, that's likely well to advanced at this stage for your world... rather than simply saying...NO! Consider a response along the lines of:
"No, a steam engine is far to advanced at this stage of development, but maybe something closer to the current tech level? Perhaps something like the corkscrew, or maybe a hydraulic lift at the docks that simply fills a chamber when the tide comes in causing it to rise."
after all... the Romans had indoor pluming nearly 2000 years ago...