Playing pan and paper, players don’t see the initiative order. They figure it out after the first round, but don’t see it generally. It works just fine.
It works fine. Not letting your players see initiative stops them from strategizing based-off factors that their characters wouldn't know. Personally, I find that this system creates chaos and confusion, and your players can figure out the initiative order after 1 round anyways. However, it is a perfectly viable way of stopping some metagaming, so there is nothing wrong with hiding the initiative if you want to.
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The other side of it is players knowing combat order can make run smoother and faster. As a player when my turn approaches I start thinking about what I can do and by the time it is the player before I usually know what I am going to do or have a couple of options depending on what they do. Occasionally somethig unexpected happens, say for example I get swallowed by the monster which leaves me searching through my spells / features be decide what is best given the change in circumstance, (for example does "misty step" require sight) and that will slow my turn down. Not an issue if it happens occasions due to a twst in the battle but if every player (not character) is surprised when it is their turn and everyone is taking longer to decide what to do it can really slow combat down.
As they say, it doesn't matter much either way. Some players write it down themselves. I've done it both ways, but not usually with any intent. Sometimes I just wrote it on a scrap of paper because it was handy behind the screen. Sometimes it was easier to show it to everyone.
I do use a house rule for holding your action that involves the initiative tracker too. My players don't take advantage of it often. But knowing where they are in the order kind of helps if they do want to.
If you do want to hide it, just don't be surprised if they starting tracking it themselves. It's usually not worth trying to stop them. Good luck with your ideas though!
too much rolling, it would hold up the game and take too long.
Each individual on the board rolls initiative only once 99.9% of the time. What do you mean hiding the results from the players is too much rolling? Isn’t it the same amount of rolling whether the players are privy to the results or not?
What if initiative was random after the first round?
It would mess with game balance, as there are many things that last “until the start of your next turn” so those things would either not work as well, because they didn’t last as long as designed, or work too well because they lasted longer. Also rolling new initiative every round was the standard in 1 and 2 e. The whole game was so radically different then that it’s tough to compare, but it does seem like things move faster now with only rolling once.
What if initiative was random after the first round?
Some people do play where they re-roll initiative every round. It isn’t “random” because initiative bonuses still apply, but it isn’t fixed either. And while it does affect some things like spell durations, etc., it usually all ends up balancing out after a while. It does add a little time to combat, but after players get used to it it speeds up. And it can also add some suspense to combat. That can sometimes help keep players engaged when they would otherwise tune out when it isn’t their turn.
It's usually not terrible but there is also good meta gaming that it allows. Players can be prepared to take their turn in advance which can make combat much smoother and enjoyable.
There are optional rules that reroll and randomize turn order and in general they have been found to slow down and complicate things.
Given that combat can really crawl when you get to tier 2 (levels 5-10) due to the sheer number of access to options that players have, hiding initiative doesn't make sense for my games. Having initiative available to all allows players to strategise and plan their next actions.
For those on the side of hiding initiative to stop meta knowledge I'd answer that if you're running encounters well, your players won't know how the enemies you're controlling are going to act. Maybe those enemies are going to flee? Maybe they'll activate a trap? Maybe they'll switch targets and attack someone else.
My experiences to date have been that hiding initiative slows the progress of combat. Up until recently I had initiative tracked through the encounter builders here on DDB. The problem I found is frequently my players just weren't ready on their turns because they lost track of their turn in initiative order. Given I've got druids and characters with pets and the like...when animals are conjured or pets are utilised the initiative gets even more fuzzy.
In the most recent sessions I started using the initiative tracker built into Owlbear, which I use as a VTT for both in person and online games, my players have been able to complete their turns with so much more haste.
So having used both systems, and now having settled on a good tracking of initiative I have to fall on the side of showing the players. I just do not see the benefit of hiding initiative in my games, or with my groups. Although, as I said to my Blades in the Dark group yesterday, every different group has a different flow. It's what works for the group currently round the table (virtual or real).
As to changing up initiative each round, that I feel belongs only in hack-and-slash campaigns. I've run one such campaigns where they players weren't in it for the story and wanted D&D to essentially be a minis games. So, long combat didn't bother them. Personally, it's not my bag as a DM and I do make clear that though I'll give a 33% prominence to combat (as one of the three pillars), combat won't be the largest section of my planning.
Showing the initiative order isn't really providing meta knowledge. It is replicating the battle awareness that would happen in a free-form combat. Combatants are constantly scanning the battlefield looking for opportunities to use their abilities to the best effect, so also looking for openings in which to use them.
Showing the initiative order isn't really providing meta knowledge. It is replicating the battle awareness that would happen in a free-form combat. Combatants are constantly scanning the battlefield looking for opportunities to use their abilities to the best effect, so also looking for openings in which to use them.
I agree, but I have legitimately heard DMs claim that it's 'too meta' to have players see initiative. Crazy in my opinion, but if that's the way they play...
I actually have my players keep track of initiative and remind each other who's on deck just because it makes things easier on me. I do, however, hide monster and lair/environmental effect initiatives from my players if they have no reason to know they're there. Once stealth is broken, in the initiative order they go with the rest.
What's really fun is hiding the PCs' hit points from them. I gave my players (who were tier 3) access to a potion that made them resistant to all damage for one minute and gave them temporary hit points equal to twice their character level. The potion seller's wares were always Faustian bargains, though, and they got extra combat ability at the expense of being able to tell how hurt they were. I would keep track of their HP like I would for any monster and they wouldn't know how injured they were until they went down. It was "Something to Ease the Pain" after all, and boy is adrenaline a powerful thing...
While not having an initiative tracker at all would be chaotic, what if the players did not see it?
I'm curious about your opinion on totally hiding the initiative tracker from the players?
Pros, cons?
Thank you!
Speaking for myself as DM, this sounds like more housekeeping for me. If I'm going to tell the next player they are on deck so that they can start getting ready for their turn, I may as well show them the full initiative order. The attentive players will note who goes after whom anyway, and the inattentive players will just end up slowing gameplay at the table.
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While not having an initiative tracker at all would be chaotic, what if the players did not see it?
I'm curious about your opinion on totally hiding the initiative tracker from the players?
Pros, cons?
Thank you!
Playing pan and paper, players don’t see the initiative order. They figure it out after the first round, but don’t see it generally. It works just fine.
It works fine. Not letting your players see initiative stops them from strategizing based-off factors that their characters wouldn't know. Personally, I find that this system creates chaos and confusion, and your players can figure out the initiative order after 1 round anyways. However, it is a perfectly viable way of stopping some metagaming, so there is nothing wrong with hiding the initiative if you want to.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.The other side of it is players knowing combat order can make run smoother and faster. As a player when my turn approaches I start thinking about what I can do and by the time it is the player before I usually know what I am going to do or have a couple of options depending on what they do. Occasionally somethig unexpected happens, say for example I get swallowed by the monster which leaves me searching through my spells / features be decide what is best given the change in circumstance, (for example does "misty step" require sight) and that will slow my turn down. Not an issue if it happens occasions due to a twst in the battle but if every player (not character) is surprised when it is their turn and everyone is taking longer to decide what to do it can really slow combat down.
As they say, it doesn't matter much either way. Some players write it down themselves. I've done it both ways, but not usually with any intent. Sometimes I just wrote it on a scrap of paper because it was handy behind the screen. Sometimes it was easier to show it to everyone.
I do use a house rule for holding your action that involves the initiative tracker too. My players don't take advantage of it often. But knowing where they are in the order kind of helps if they do want to.
If you do want to hide it, just don't be surprised if they starting tracking it themselves. It's usually not worth trying to stop them. Good luck with your ideas though!
What if initiative was random after the first round?
too much rolling, it would hold up the game and take too long.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
Each individual on the board rolls initiative only once 99.9% of the time. What do you mean hiding the results from the players is too much rolling? Isn’t it the same amount of rolling whether the players are privy to the results or not?
It would mess with game balance, as there are many things that last “until the start of your next turn” so those things would either not work as well, because they didn’t last as long as designed, or work too well because they lasted longer.
Also rolling new initiative every round was the standard in 1 and 2 e. The whole game was so radically different then that it’s tough to compare, but it does seem like things move faster now with only rolling once.
too much rolling, it would hold up the game and take too long.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
ah, sorry. I was responding to @BigDaddyMSU
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
Some people do play where they re-roll initiative every round. It isn’t “random” because initiative bonuses still apply, but it isn’t fixed either. And while it does affect some things like spell durations, etc., it usually all ends up balancing out after a while. It does add a little time to combat, but after players get used to it it speeds up. And it can also add some suspense to combat. That can sometimes help keep players engaged when they would otherwise tune out when it isn’t their turn.
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Thanks. I think that is too much rolling as well. Cheers!
It's usually not terrible but there is also good meta gaming that it allows. Players can be prepared to take their turn in advance which can make combat much smoother and enjoyable.
There are optional rules that reroll and randomize turn order and in general they have been found to slow down and complicate things.
Given that combat can really crawl when you get to tier 2 (levels 5-10) due to the sheer number of access to options that players have, hiding initiative doesn't make sense for my games. Having initiative available to all allows players to strategise and plan their next actions.
For those on the side of hiding initiative to stop meta knowledge I'd answer that if you're running encounters well, your players won't know how the enemies you're controlling are going to act. Maybe those enemies are going to flee? Maybe they'll activate a trap? Maybe they'll switch targets and attack someone else.
My experiences to date have been that hiding initiative slows the progress of combat. Up until recently I had initiative tracked through the encounter builders here on DDB. The problem I found is frequently my players just weren't ready on their turns because they lost track of their turn in initiative order. Given I've got druids and characters with pets and the like...when animals are conjured or pets are utilised the initiative gets even more fuzzy.
In the most recent sessions I started using the initiative tracker built into Owlbear, which I use as a VTT for both in person and online games, my players have been able to complete their turns with so much more haste.
So having used both systems, and now having settled on a good tracking of initiative I have to fall on the side of showing the players. I just do not see the benefit of hiding initiative in my games, or with my groups. Although, as I said to my Blades in the Dark group yesterday, every different group has a different flow. It's what works for the group currently round the table (virtual or real).
As to changing up initiative each round, that I feel belongs only in hack-and-slash campaigns. I've run one such campaigns where they players weren't in it for the story and wanted D&D to essentially be a minis games. So, long combat didn't bother them. Personally, it's not my bag as a DM and I do make clear that though I'll give a 33% prominence to combat (as one of the three pillars), combat won't be the largest section of my planning.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Showing the initiative order isn't really providing meta knowledge. It is replicating the battle awareness that would happen in a free-form combat. Combatants are constantly scanning the battlefield looking for opportunities to use their abilities to the best effect, so also looking for openings in which to use them.
I agree, but I have legitimately heard DMs claim that it's 'too meta' to have players see initiative. Crazy in my opinion, but if that's the way they play...
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
I usually don't show initiative to the players, but if they wanted to they could track it themselves; Its not like its a rule that they can't.
I actually have my players keep track of initiative and remind each other who's on deck just because it makes things easier on me. I do, however, hide monster and lair/environmental effect initiatives from my players if they have no reason to know they're there. Once stealth is broken, in the initiative order they go with the rest.
What's really fun is hiding the PCs' hit points from them. I gave my players (who were tier 3) access to a potion that made them resistant to all damage for one minute and gave them temporary hit points equal to twice their character level. The potion seller's wares were always Faustian bargains, though, and they got extra combat ability at the expense of being able to tell how hurt they were. I would keep track of their HP like I would for any monster and they wouldn't know how injured they were until they went down. It was "Something to Ease the Pain" after all, and boy is adrenaline a powerful thing...
Speaking for myself as DM, this sounds like more housekeeping for me. If I'm going to tell the next player they are on deck so that they can start getting ready for their turn, I may as well show them the full initiative order. The attentive players will note who goes after whom anyway, and the inattentive players will just end up slowing gameplay at the table.
"Not all those who wander are lost"