So, I have this player in my game and I'm good friends with him irl. The problem is that he definitely cheated when making his character, with nothing below a 15 for his stats. On top of that, I know he is fudging his rolls on dnd beyond. I've already addressed that he needs to make a new more fair character but he has "no room" on dnd beyond because of his other games. This would be a valid reason if it wasn't for the fact that at least two of his "characters" are dmpcs who can easily just be stat blocks. I don't want to kick him out of the game but idk what to do, suggestions needed.
His current character is illegitimate. Delete that one and use its slot. Print or screen shot it if before deleting it if he cries about losing information.
His current character is illegitimate. Delete that one and use its slot. Print or screen shot it if before deleting it if he cries about losing information.
I will certainly be thinking of that if I can't reason with him. The only problem is that, because he has "no room" he is using the same character from two completely different games, I fixing to tell him that he can either get rid of one of his DMPCs or I'll physically force him to make a paper character sheet. (we're buds so I can force him don't worry bout it)
Pointless clarification, but this isn't technically what a "min-maxer" is. Min-maxers work within the rules to create a character that's the best as possible at one area of specialization.
Pointless clarification, but this isn't technically what a "min-maxer" is. Min-maxers work within the rules to create a character that's the best as possible at one area of specialization.
Cheaters are just cheating.
This situation went from questionable to absurd. How anyone thinks playing the same copy of the same character in two unrelated games is in any way acceptable is beyond me. I returned only to add what you have. QFT. The kid is a cheat.
So, I have this player in my game and I'm good friends with him irl. The problem is that he definitely cheated when making his character, with nothing below a 15 for his stats. On top of that, I know he is fudging his rolls on dnd beyond. I've already addressed that he needs to make a new more fair character but he has "no room" on dnd beyond because of his other games. This would be a valid reason if it wasn't for the fact that at least two of his "characters" are dmpcs who can easily just be stat blocks. I don't want to kick him out of the game but idk what to do, suggestions needed.
If you know for sure that he is doing this, then you need to politely tell him to delete his character (he can export his build to a PDF before removing it from his used slots) and use the new available space to make a new build.
It's hard to judge everything, since we only have your perspective on this. However, if you are sure he's cheating, then you need to politely remind him that D&D isn't about the DM versus the Players: It's about having a fun shared experience together. You also might need to make it so he can't easily fudge rolls. For instance, have him roll physically or use a platform that shows a player's rolls to everyone (like certain VTTs).
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Pointless clarification, but this isn't technically what a "min-maxer" is. Min-maxers work within the rules to create a character that's the best as possible at one area of specialization.
Cheaters are just cheating.
I see, apologies for improper classification.
And yes I'll will have a conversation with him, thx for the input.
Yep, I just wanted to further emphasize, min/max'ing is not in any way, shape or form cheating. If your player is cheating repeatedly with character creation and die rolls then is a cheater and not a min/maxer.
You need to have a chat with the player.
1) Suggest they delete the character on D&D Beyond because they won't be allowed to play it any more so it is useless for that game. If he really likes the character he can print the pdf before deletion.
2) All die rolls should be made with witnesses on D&D Beyond or Roll20 or in person including rolled stats at character creation and die rolls during the game. Everyone should be doing that. (I even do it to myself when I DM so that the players see the rolls).
3) If the player won't take those two actions then you probably don't want them at the table anyway even if they are a good friend - maybe D&D just isn't their game.
So, I have this player in my game and I'm good friends with him irl. The problem is that he definitely cheated when making his character, with nothing below a 15 for his stats. On top of that, I know he is fudging his rolls on dnd beyond. I've already addressed that he needs to make a new more fair character but he has "no room" on dnd beyond because of his other games. This would be a valid reason if it wasn't for the fact that at least two of his "characters" are dmpcs who can easily just be stat blocks. I don't want to kick him out of the game but idk what to do, suggestions needed.
So the stat thing - this is why, since D&D Beyond came out, I embraced the Point Buy System.
This allows everyone to have the same playing field in terms of points, rather than someone getting really lucky (or unlucky?) with their dice rolls.
As for fudging the dice rolls on D&D Beyond - how is that possible? (Not say it isn't - just saying I am not aware how it would be).
You should be able to see all the rolls in the Campaign portion - or if you have everyone install Beyond20 then have the rolls go into Discord (if you're using Discord), you could verify the rolls there.
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten much less tolerant of this kind of nonsense. The player is cheating. Just kick him and find a new player.
You can try to be nice, and work with him, but he’ll always be looking for his next chance to cheat, and you shouldn’t have to spend any of your time policing the guy. And eventually, he’ll do it again, and you’ll be back in the same position. Save yourself the time and just boot him now. (I’ll add that someone cheating at a game like D&D, where really, everyone including the DM is on the same team, is probably a sign this person just isn’t the kind you want to be around.) There’s plenty of people out there who play by the rules, and can’t find a game, give his seat to one of them.
So, I have this player in my game and I'm good friends with him irl. The problem is that he definitely cheated when making his character, with nothing below a 15 for his stats. On top of that, I know he is fudging his rolls on dnd beyond. I've already addressed that he needs to make a new more fair character but he has "no room" on dnd beyond because of his other games. This would be a valid reason if it wasn't for the fact that at least two of his "characters" are dmpcs who can easily just be stat blocks. I don't want to kick him out of the game but idk what to do, suggestions needed.
You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
It worked fine in 1e and 2e. We would go plane/universe/campaign hopping regularly. Sometimes it was clones sometimes it was the same Bluestar the cleric. The only drawback is some DMs would not allow me to keep/use the cool magic items I got in the Monty Haul campaign.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
It worked fine in 1e and 2e. We would go plane/universe/campaign hopping regularly. Sometimes it was clones sometimes it was the same Bluestar the cleric. The only drawback is some DMs would not allow me to keep/use the cool magic items I got in the Monty Haul campaign.
I agree, my friends and I used to campaign hop all the time too.
However, in response to your comment saying, "You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out."
I disagree. My experiences have shown me that some people will cheat for reasons that are really more about themself than anything else.
That said, I am going to go against the grain here and say that what you should do depends on the following:
Is this a seriouis game (meaning that you want an element of danger, fear that characters could actually die), or is this more of a silly (just for fun) game?
I'm guessing you would say this is a serious game, but your friend would say it is a silly game. Figure that out first, then, if you are not on the same page like I suspect you need to ask yourself the next question. What is more important to you, the game, or your friendship. If the friendship is more important, then you need to consider their feelings/responses to any discussions/actions that you might take.
My advice comes from experience. A good/long time friend has always cheated in similar ways in most any game I've played with him over decades now. He does it with me, he does it with his brother, he does it with his other friends, etc.... Ultimately, I did talk with him, and he explained that playing characters that weren't optimal and having characters die simply was not fun for him. He prefers a silly game. In my youth, I wanted to run a serious game and I wanted him to be in it, so I tried to force the issue by instituting the point buy system. He literally opted out and refused to play. Since then, I have played many games with him, but none that I really want to be serious. So rather than trying to change your friend, I suggest that you first try to understand them, and then find a solution that works for both of you, even if it means that you don't always play every game together.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
It worked fine in 1e and 2e. We would go plane/universe/campaign hopping regularly. Sometimes it was clones sometimes it was the same Bluestar the cleric. The only drawback is some DMs would not allow me to keep/use the cool magic items I got in the Monty Haul campaign.
I agree, my friends and I used to campaign hop all the time too.
However, in response to your comment saying, "You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out."
I disagree. My experiences have shown me that some people will cheat for reasons that are really more about themself than anything else.
That said, I am going to go against the grain here and say that what you should do depends on the following:
Is this a seriouis game (meaning that you want an element of danger, fear that characters could actually die), or is this more of a silly (just for fun) game?
I'm guessing you would say this is a serious game, but your friend would say it is a silly game. Figure that out first, then, if you are not on the same page like I suspect you need to ask yourself the next question. What is more important to you, the game, or your friendship. If the friendship is more important, then you need to consider their feelings/responses to any discussions/actions that you might take.
My advice comes from experience. A good/long time friend has always cheated in similar ways in most any game I've played with him over decades now. He does it with me, he does it with his brother, he does it with his other friends, etc.... Ultimately, I did talk with him, and he explained that playing characters that weren't optimal and having characters die simply was not fun for him. He prefers a silly game. In my youth, I wanted to run a serious game and I wanted him to be in it, so I tried to force the issue by instituting the point buy system. He literally opted out and refused to play. Since then, I have played many games with him, but none that I really want to be serious. So rather than trying to change your friend, I suggest that you first try to understand them, and then find a solution that works for both of you, even if it means that you don't always play every game together.
Both games his character comes from is serious but I've talked to him about it and he agreed to play more fairly now. Thx for all the advice.
Yeesh, this is a tough one to solve. My little experience as a DM tells me that you need to have a talk with him about re-rolling his stats. Approach with the point that he may be hijacking the game and taking fun away from the other players because he's the best at everything in the party (I'm assuming). Don't try to confront him as if he's committed a war crime, confront him in a manor that comes off as "I'm trying to help you learn."
I usually use point buy in my games, but that can be somewhat restrictive in terms of wanting to have a specialized character without sacrificing other stats. With this situation in mind, try to get him to use standard array or point buy. I generally don't trust my players to roll randomly for their stats unless they're family members.
Above all, though, don't threaten to kick him out unless he does this again. If you manage to convince him to change his stats to something more balanced, keep a PDF or a print out of his character sheet so that you can make sure he doesn't change his stats in between sessions.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
It worked fine in 1e and 2e. We would go plane/universe/campaign hopping regularly. Sometimes it was clones sometimes it was the same Bluestar the cleric. The only drawback is some DMs would not allow me to keep/use the cool magic items I got in the Monty Haul campaign.
I agree, my friends and I used to campaign hop all the time too.
However, in response to your comment saying, "You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out."
I disagree. My experiences have shown me that some people will cheat for reasons that are really more about themself than anything else.
That said, I am going to go against the grain here and say that what you should do depends on the following:
Is this a seriouis game (meaning that you want an element of danger, fear that characters could actually die), or is this more of a silly (just for fun) game?
I'm guessing you would say this is a serious game, but your friend would say it is a silly game. Figure that out first, then, if you are not on the same page like I suspect you need to ask yourself the next question. What is more important to you, the game, or your friendship. If the friendship is more important, then you need to consider their feelings/responses to any discussions/actions that you might take.
My advice comes from experience. A good/long time friend has always cheated in similar ways in most any game I've played with him over decades now. He does it with me, he does it with his brother, he does it with his other friends, etc.... Ultimately, I did talk with him, and he explained that playing characters that weren't optimal and having characters die simply was not fun for him. He prefers a silly game. In my youth, I wanted to run a serious game and I wanted him to be in it, so I tried to force the issue by instituting the point buy system. He literally opted out and refused to play. Since then, I have played many games with him, but none that I really want to be serious. So rather than trying to change your friend, I suggest that you first try to understand them, and then find a solution that works for both of you, even if it means that you don't always play every game together.
I'd just have to say I disagree with this one. Whether the game is silly or serious, cheating just isn't acceptable behavior. What is the point of having dice in the game if one of the players can just make up whatever result they want? How is that fair to other players who don't "cheat"? If someone wants to run a completely story beat game where whatever the players say happens is what occurs, that is great! Have fun with it, but it isn't the game we are discussing here.
In the case of your friend that wouldn't play using point buy, you decided that you cared more about playing with that person than the unfairness to everyone else in the game represented by their cheating. If they want to play a heroic game, great, then everyone plays a heroic game with the same character creation options. You don't have everyone roll dice and subsequently pretend it was random. If one player can make up their character with all stats 15+ while everyone else has a distribution using point buy or some other rolling system then the character with the 15+ min stats will make that character, on average, better than most other characters at addressing the challenges in the game. The character will have more ASIs to spend on feats than on boosting base stats. Unless no one actually cares about playing the game (which may be what you mean by "silly"), then such behavior is likely to create friction with the other players even if the DM winks and goes along with it.
If everyone at the table buys into allowing one character to dominate the game due to high stats and "modified" dice rolls so that they are far more effective and heroic than the other characters, go for it. In my experience though, playing a cooperative group game doesn't work that way. Rules exist to offer the players a context for the actions of their characters. If one player can arbitrarily choose to break those rules then it usually has a negative impact on the play experience of everyone at the table.
Anyway, I'm not in the camp of toss the player out instantly. I'd talk to them, try to resolve the issue, find a mechanism that makes the die rolling fair and transparent to everyone and if they don't want to play that way then that is unfortunate but it is their decision.
Pointless clarification, but this isn't technically what a "min-maxer" is. Min-maxers work within the rules to create a character that's the best as possible at one area of specialization.
Cheaters are just cheating.
guys, its actually quite possible to have a character with nothing lower than 15 on ability scores.
Absolutely possible, but the odds are incredibly small if the dice are rolled honestly, but it does happen.
Odds of getting a 15+ stat are 23% rolling 4d6k3. The odds of getting 6 stats that are all 15+ is (23%)^6
0.23^6 = 0.00015 = 0.015%, about one to two times in every 10,000 characters you roll up could have all stats above 15 ... this is, needless to say, very small.
These DO occur but not often.
Anyway, it's possible to roll this well and ultimately it comes down to how much you trust the person making the rolls to report them accurately but the odds on really high stats across the board are very small.
Odds of getting a 15+ stat are 23% rolling 4d6k3. The odds of getting 6 stats that are all 15+ is (23%)^6
0.23^6 = 0.00015 = 0.015%, about one to two times in every 10,000 characters you roll up could have all stats above 15 ... this is, needless to say, very small.
Props to this guy for doing the math. Not necessary, but interesting nonetheless.
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So, I have this player in my game and I'm good friends with him irl. The problem is that he definitely cheated when making his character, with nothing below a 15 for his stats. On top of that, I know he is fudging his rolls on dnd beyond. I've already addressed that he needs to make a new more fair character but he has "no room" on dnd beyond because of his other games. This would be a valid reason if it wasn't for the fact that at least two of his "characters" are dmpcs who can easily just be stat blocks. I don't want to kick him out of the game but idk what to do, suggestions needed.
His current character is illegitimate. Delete that one and use its slot. Print or screen shot it if before deleting it if he cries about losing information.
I will certainly be thinking of that if I can't reason with him. The only problem is that, because he has "no room" he is using the same character from two completely different games, I fixing to tell him that he can either get rid of one of his DMPCs or I'll physically force him to make a paper character sheet. (we're buds so I can force him don't worry bout it)
Pointless clarification, but this isn't technically what a "min-maxer" is. Min-maxers work within the rules to create a character that's the best as possible at one area of specialization.
Cheaters are just cheating.
This situation went from questionable to absurd. How anyone thinks playing the same copy of the same character in two unrelated games is in any way acceptable is beyond me. I returned only to add what you have. QFT. The kid is a cheat.
If you know for sure that he is doing this, then you need to politely tell him to delete his character (he can export his build to a PDF before removing it from his used slots) and use the new available space to make a new build.
It's hard to judge everything, since we only have your perspective on this. However, if you are sure he's cheating, then you need to politely remind him that D&D isn't about the DM versus the Players: It's about having a fun shared experience together. You also might need to make it so he can't easily fudge rolls. For instance, have him roll physically or use a platform that shows a player's rolls to everyone (like certain VTTs).
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HERE.I see, apologies for improper classification.
And yes I'll will have a conversation with him, thx for the input.
Yep, I just wanted to further emphasize, min/max'ing is not in any way, shape or form cheating. If your player is cheating repeatedly with character creation and die rolls then is a cheater and not a min/maxer.
You need to have a chat with the player.
1) Suggest they delete the character on D&D Beyond because they won't be allowed to play it any more so it is useless for that game. If he really likes the character he can print the pdf before deletion.
2) All die rolls should be made with witnesses on D&D Beyond or Roll20 or in person including rolled stats at character creation and die rolls during the game. Everyone should be doing that. (I even do it to myself when I DM so that the players see the rolls).
3) If the player won't take those two actions then you probably don't want them at the table anyway even if they are a good friend - maybe D&D just isn't their game.
So the stat thing - this is why, since D&D Beyond came out, I embraced the Point Buy System.
This allows everyone to have the same playing field in terms of points, rather than someone getting really lucky (or unlucky?) with their dice rolls.
As for fudging the dice rolls on D&D Beyond - how is that possible? (Not say it isn't - just saying I am not aware how it would be).
You should be able to see all the rolls in the Campaign portion - or if you have everyone install Beyond20 then have the rolls go into Discord (if you're using Discord), you could verify the rolls there.
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As I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten much less tolerant of this kind of nonsense. The player is cheating. Just kick him and find a new player.
You can try to be nice, and work with him, but he’ll always be looking for his next chance to cheat, and you shouldn’t have to spend any of your time policing the guy. And eventually, he’ll do it again, and you’ll be back in the same position. Save yourself the time and just boot him now. (I’ll add that someone cheating at a game like D&D, where really, everyone including the DM is on the same team, is probably a sign this person just isn’t the kind you want to be around.)
There’s plenty of people out there who play by the rules, and can’t find a game, give his seat to one of them.
You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Back in1 and 2 E we would clone our characters Born of Fire 74. So we would have the same pc in other peoples game.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
A cloned character is two copies of the same character. That is not what is described here. The player is using the exact same copy of the character in two completely separate games. That does not work in any edition.
It worked fine in 1e and 2e. We would go plane/universe/campaign hopping regularly. Sometimes it was clones sometimes it was the same Bluestar the cleric. The only drawback is some DMs would not allow me to keep/use the cool magic items I got in the Monty Haul campaign.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
I agree, my friends and I used to campaign hop all the time too.
However, in response to your comment saying, "You are not good friends. Because good friends would not cheat. Talk with him one more time and then kick them out."
I disagree. My experiences have shown me that some people will cheat for reasons that are really more about themself than anything else.
That said, I am going to go against the grain here and say that what you should do depends on the following:
Is this a seriouis game (meaning that you want an element of danger, fear that characters could actually die), or is this more of a silly (just for fun) game?
I'm guessing you would say this is a serious game, but your friend would say it is a silly game. Figure that out first, then, if you are not on the same page like I suspect you need to ask yourself the next question. What is more important to you, the game, or your friendship. If the friendship is more important, then you need to consider their feelings/responses to any discussions/actions that you might take.
My advice comes from experience. A good/long time friend has always cheated in similar ways in most any game I've played with him over decades now. He does it with me, he does it with his brother, he does it with his other friends, etc.... Ultimately, I did talk with him, and he explained that playing characters that weren't optimal and having characters die simply was not fun for him. He prefers a silly game. In my youth, I wanted to run a serious game and I wanted him to be in it, so I tried to force the issue by instituting the point buy system. He literally opted out and refused to play. Since then, I have played many games with him, but none that I really want to be serious. So rather than trying to change your friend, I suggest that you first try to understand them, and then find a solution that works for both of you, even if it means that you don't always play every game together.
Both games his character comes from is serious but I've talked to him about it and he agreed to play more fairly now. Thx for all the advice.
Yeesh, this is a tough one to solve. My little experience as a DM tells me that you need to have a talk with him about re-rolling his stats. Approach with the point that he may be hijacking the game and taking fun away from the other players because he's the best at everything in the party (I'm assuming). Don't try to confront him as if he's committed a war crime, confront him in a manor that comes off as "I'm trying to help you learn."
I usually use point buy in my games, but that can be somewhat restrictive in terms of wanting to have a specialized character without sacrificing other stats. With this situation in mind, try to get him to use standard array or point buy. I generally don't trust my players to roll randomly for their stats unless they're family members.
Above all, though, don't threaten to kick him out unless he does this again. If you manage to convince him to change his stats to something more balanced, keep a PDF or a print out of his character sheet so that you can make sure he doesn't change his stats in between sessions.
NOCTURNE OP55N1
🛈 Meet Hanako at Embers.
I'd just have to say I disagree with this one. Whether the game is silly or serious, cheating just isn't acceptable behavior. What is the point of having dice in the game if one of the players can just make up whatever result they want? How is that fair to other players who don't "cheat"? If someone wants to run a completely story beat game where whatever the players say happens is what occurs, that is great! Have fun with it, but it isn't the game we are discussing here.
In the case of your friend that wouldn't play using point buy, you decided that you cared more about playing with that person than the unfairness to everyone else in the game represented by their cheating. If they want to play a heroic game, great, then everyone plays a heroic game with the same character creation options. You don't have everyone roll dice and subsequently pretend it was random. If one player can make up their character with all stats 15+ while everyone else has a distribution using point buy or some other rolling system then the character with the 15+ min stats will make that character, on average, better than most other characters at addressing the challenges in the game. The character will have more ASIs to spend on feats than on boosting base stats. Unless no one actually cares about playing the game (which may be what you mean by "silly"), then such behavior is likely to create friction with the other players even if the DM winks and goes along with it.
If everyone at the table buys into allowing one character to dominate the game due to high stats and "modified" dice rolls so that they are far more effective and heroic than the other characters, go for it. In my experience though, playing a cooperative group game doesn't work that way. Rules exist to offer the players a context for the actions of their characters. If one player can arbitrarily choose to break those rules then it usually has a negative impact on the play experience of everyone at the table.
Anyway, I'm not in the camp of toss the player out instantly. I'd talk to them, try to resolve the issue, find a mechanism that makes the die rolling fair and transparent to everyone and if they don't want to play that way then that is unfortunate but it is their decision.
Absolutely possible, but the odds are incredibly small if the dice are rolled honestly, but it does happen.
From the math here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/153527/what-are-the-odds-of-rolling-specific-ability-score-totals-in-dd
Odds of getting a 15+ stat are 23% rolling 4d6k3. The odds of getting 6 stats that are all 15+ is (23%)^6
0.23^6 = 0.00015 = 0.015%, about one to two times in every 10,000 characters you roll up could have all stats above 15 ... this is, needless to say, very small.
These DO occur but not often.
Anyway, it's possible to roll this well and ultimately it comes down to how much you trust the person making the rolls to report them accurately but the odds on really high stats across the board are very small.
Props to this guy for doing the math. Not necessary, but interesting nonetheless.
NOCTURNE OP55N1
🛈 Meet Hanako at Embers.