I'm about to start a campaign with a rogue assassin in it. Im sure the auto crit mechanic will come up. The PHB basically says that the DM decides if and who is surprised .... how is this normally handled to allow the assassin to take advantage of this auto crit function without it being game breakingly often?
Basically, the player describes how they plan on getting the drop on their enemy, then usually makes a Stealth check or something similar to sneak over and get an attack in before initiative is rolled. It's mostly up to you to decide if the plan will actually surprise anyone and if the auto-crit function is workable in that instance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
so i know he wants to be a "SNIPER" ... assassin with a heavy crossbow ... so if i assume he takes the sharp shooter feat at some point ... and he is positioned 400 ft away from a target and shoots
Thats basically got to be auto crit right? i mean there is no way that anyone would be aware of someone 400 ft away aiming a crossbow out them ...
So between the sneak attack and the auto crit ... im thinking about just having the player roll an attack roll ... if it hits ... the guard dies ... with like a bolt to the neck or something ... does this seem reasonable?
Was initiative rolled before the rogue declared the attack on the enemy? If no, the enemy is surprised, and if he survives or if others survive which witness the death, roll initiative. If yes, the assassin may benefit from Advantage (if the enemy is unaware of them or hasn't gone yet) and therefore may get a sneak attack even on a non-flanked enemy, but it's not surprise.
Another way to think of it, is that a creature is only Surprised during the Surprise Round, detailed at the very start of chapter 9. The rules for that are very clear, and as long as you follow them, you'll be fine. Just remember, surprised doesn't mean it like we think it means it, as in "he didn't see it coming". It means, in a D&D sense, specifically that combat actions are occurring to a creature who was not aware of a threat and who does not get to act during the initial surprise round of combat. After that round, no one is surprised, they know they're in combat, regardless of if the attack is coming from an angle they hadn't yet anticipated.
As far as auto kill mechanics, that's your call. I've played with them and played without them. I think Rogues and Fighters and other non-casters don't get Nearly enough power gain at later levels compared to the ability to cross into other planes of existence etc that casters get. I tend to personally prefer non-casters getting to go absurd with their abilities, and at high levels not only would I have no issue with an auto kill regardless of HP, I'd be ok with a Rogue stealing a non-physical object, like a guard's sense of pride, or an idea, or whatever. That's definitely not for everyone though, and ultimately you just need to ask yourself- do I think the game is better if he can, or better if he can't. Whichever it is, go with that.
Minor quibble. There is no longer a Surprise Round in 5e. There is a Surprised Condition, which for all intents and purposes is the same thing. Meaning the surprised condition limits the character in that it cannot take actions, or move, nor can it use reactions until after it's initial turn has ended. Like I said, minor quibble.
Honestly Cporter, it just depends on the situation at hand. Where is the target, who is the target, are they worried someone is after them, or are they trying to use it whenever they are going into a fight/battle? In general, I always think about the current situation and what is currently happening in the world or setting, and often check passive perception/active perception/scrys etc. to see if the target noticed anything.
For example, I had a player that was trying to kill a warlord in his camp to end a potential siege of a town. The Warlord was paranoid and so he had a body double that the group didn't know about. The assassin killed the heck out of him (no one noticed him, the target didn't see him, and no spells were used to check the perimeter) and escaped, only find out later that the Warlord was still alive and was even more prepared for future attempts on his life.
After this, he was a little more careful not only about when he was trying to assassinate someone or thing, but he also started to think more about how to cover his tracks. Made for a very interesting situation later in the campaign.
Basically, the player describes how they plan on getting the drop on their enemy, then usually makes a Stealth check or something similar to sneak over and get an attack in before initiative is rolled.
You're not supposed to attack other creatures out of combat; the whole point of surprise is to handle those situations.
The PH tells you when a creature is surprised: "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." That usually means there's hidden enemies and you didn't notice any of them, but it can also mean someone you trusted suddenly decided to attack you and you didn't see it coming.
5e surprise really is a different mechanic from previous editions.
As always, modify things to suit your game, but by the rule book, you'd roll initiative for everyone before resolving any attack, even a sneak attack. Anyone that is unaware of a threat, due to the attacker being too far away, hiding, etc. (you decide), has the surprised condition on their first turn in combat. But they still take a turn - depending on circumstances they may still have things to do like roll saves for ongoing effects (charm person, moon beam, etc).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm about to start a campaign with a rogue assassin in it. Im sure the auto crit mechanic will come up. The PHB basically says that the DM decides if and who is surprised .... how is this normally handled to allow the assassin to take advantage of this auto crit function without it being game breakingly often?
Basically, the player describes how they plan on getting the drop on their enemy, then usually makes a Stealth check or something similar to sneak over and get an attack in before initiative is rolled. It's mostly up to you to decide if the plan will actually surprise anyone and if the auto-crit function is workable in that instance.
So basically players dex(stealth) vs the enemies wis(passive perception) or wis(perception) depending on rogues plan ?
Pretty much.
so i know he wants to be a "SNIPER" ... assassin with a heavy crossbow ... so if i assume he takes the sharp shooter feat at some point ... and he is positioned 400 ft away from a target and shoots
Thats basically got to be auto crit right? i mean there is no way that anyone would be aware of someone 400 ft away aiming a crossbow out them ...
So between the sneak attack and the auto crit ... im thinking about just having the player roll an attack roll ... if it hits ... the guard dies ... with like a bolt to the neck or something ... does this seem reasonable?
General rule of thumb:
Was initiative rolled before the rogue declared the attack on the enemy? If no, the enemy is surprised, and if he survives or if others survive which witness the death, roll initiative. If yes, the assassin may benefit from Advantage (if the enemy is unaware of them or hasn't gone yet) and therefore may get a sneak attack even on a non-flanked enemy, but it's not surprise.
Another way to think of it, is that a creature is only Surprised during the Surprise Round, detailed at the very start of chapter 9. The rules for that are very clear, and as long as you follow them, you'll be fine. Just remember, surprised doesn't mean it like we think it means it, as in "he didn't see it coming". It means, in a D&D sense, specifically that combat actions are occurring to a creature who was not aware of a threat and who does not get to act during the initial surprise round of combat. After that round, no one is surprised, they know they're in combat, regardless of if the attack is coming from an angle they hadn't yet anticipated.
As far as auto kill mechanics, that's your call. I've played with them and played without them. I think Rogues and Fighters and other non-casters don't get Nearly enough power gain at later levels compared to the ability to cross into other planes of existence etc that casters get. I tend to personally prefer non-casters getting to go absurd with their abilities, and at high levels not only would I have no issue with an auto kill regardless of HP, I'd be ok with a Rogue stealing a non-physical object, like a guard's sense of pride, or an idea, or whatever. That's definitely not for everyone though, and ultimately you just need to ask yourself- do I think the game is better if he can, or better if he can't. Whichever it is, go with that.
Minor quibble. There is no longer a Surprise Round in 5e. There is a Surprised Condition, which for all intents and purposes is the same thing. Meaning the surprised condition limits the character in that it cannot take actions, or move, nor can it use reactions until after it's initial turn has ended. Like I said, minor quibble.
Honestly Cporter, it just depends on the situation at hand. Where is the target, who is the target, are they worried someone is after them, or are they trying to use it whenever they are going into a fight/battle? In general, I always think about the current situation and what is currently happening in the world or setting, and often check passive perception/active perception/scrys etc. to see if the target noticed anything.
For example, I had a player that was trying to kill a warlord in his camp to end a potential siege of a town. The Warlord was paranoid and so he had a body double that the group didn't know about. The assassin killed the heck out of him (no one noticed him, the target didn't see him, and no spells were used to check the perimeter) and escaped, only find out later that the Warlord was still alive and was even more prepared for future attempts on his life.
After this, he was a little more careful not only about when he was trying to assassinate someone or thing, but he also started to think more about how to cover his tracks. Made for a very interesting situation later in the campaign.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
5e surprise really is a different mechanic from previous editions.
As always, modify things to suit your game, but by the rule book, you'd roll initiative for everyone before resolving any attack, even a sneak attack. Anyone that is unaware of a threat, due to the attacker being too far away, hiding, etc. (you decide), has the surprised condition on their first turn in combat. But they still take a turn - depending on circumstances they may still have things to do like roll saves for ongoing effects (charm person, moon beam, etc).