Simplest approach I use for surprise (2014 version) which keeps the surprise itself is:
1: Shot's fired. Roll initiative.
2: Initiative order is established. Anyone who rolled higher than the sniper has already had a go, in which they were surprised so did nothing. Anyone after is still surprised, excepting alert etc. who will get to act immediately, validating the feat.
3: Top of initiative, anyone who rolled higher than the sniper will go before they go again.
Works pretty smoothly, and prevents me telling people who roll high that they have a turn in which nothing has happened to prompt the turn. Alert still works, but if you roll high initiative and have alert then they mostly contradict one another - but that's because you rolled high and get to do stuff first anyway.
By new rules if someone who is surprised by a gunshot rolls high enough they can be surprised by the unshot before it happens, prompting DM explanations of seeing something glint or some such, which may ruin a "where's the sniper" encounter.
This is exactly how the surprise round works in my game, with the exception the first round ignores initiative order for every character who is surprised, and then starts from the top, for the next turn. Alert bypasses this, but weirdly, have only had one player take that particular feat.
The exception of being outside the turn order, is if someone is very fast (rolls a very high initiative beating out the ambushers, who will have advantage on said initiative) they will have a reaction available to them.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
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Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
It is a bit of a pickle under 2024 rules, yeah. RAW, you'd all roll initiative and I suppose what would happen from there would depend on whether the PCs can see the ambushers, which is a whole other conundrum. My only real contribution to this discussion is that the ready action itself is not appropriate out of combat.
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
That's why I like my house rule of allowing replacing initiative with stealth, and limiting initiative by perception -- if you roll well enough on stealth to not be spotted, you'll go first.
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
How I would do it is have everyone roll initiative the moment the ambusher shoots, not when they plan to shoot.
Then, I would establish surprise.
So if the ambusher shoots, but rolls low on the initiative, it wouldn't matter because in many cases, the target would be surprised and not be able to attack in the 2014 rules, or roll with disadvantage on the initiative for the 2024 rules.
If someone says they ready an action with a plan to attack, that, to me, means nothing mechanically until they take actual action against the target.
Surprise round is slang for surprised people not getting a turn during the first round of combat. That is no longer the case in 5.24, which is a massive change from 5.0, and a change that I'm not fond of implementing because it makes for some logically inexplicable results.
I know it's a slang from previous editions that usually called whenever the reference is used again incorrecty because 5E has no surprise round.
In 5E everyone gets a turn, wether surprised or not. In fact, it was officially ruled that you were surprised until the end of it.
In the revision of the core rules, surprise impact your initiative as opposed to your ability to move, act or react..
Which still has a chance of resulting in surprised creature going before others in the initiative order. I'm not too fond either.
At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
I like having a rules lawyer at my table. I don't like when they interrupt with stuff that doesn't effect the game, or get the rules wrong in trying to correct me.
If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
Which rules this i get wrong last time and misquoted?
Getting a turn means getting a turn period. Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the end start of it.
You can run surprise attack by your monsters however you like at your table. Hopefully, in the same way for your players. My first comment in this thread that you also quoted was in that vein.
[..] If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
Using the 2014 rules, I think following the initiative order is important because it allows some characters to have their reactions available, like casting Shield or defending themselves if their reaction permits.
[...] Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the end of it.
Isn't it when they start their turn?
Death Saving Throw
A player character must make a Death Saving Throw (also called a Death Save) if they start their turn with 0 Hit Points. See also chapter 1 (“Damage and Healing”).
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
Initiative: Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative.
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
Initiative: Sometimes a DM might have combatants use their Initiative scores instead of rolling Initiative.
Equally as important - if the players want to force action before the NPC's are aware - I think they should have the opportunity to do so IF it makes sense in the given scenario.
the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
In my other comment I specifically mentioned "unless the characters have an ability that could be used". So my example was clearly based upon characters who don't have any reactions that can impact whatever is happening during the "surprise round".
Neither edition has a perfect surprise system. I don't like creating home brew game mechanics. It can be very confusing for new players, as well as for those who are playing at multiple tables, each with a very long list of complicated home brew rules. I don't like the new edition's treatment of surprise, but will it be a big enough problem to require a rule change?
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
Pantagruel is right here. Ready is an action you can take on your turn. Turns don't exist out of initiative order.
You wouldn't allow a player to say, "When somebody walks into the tavern, I'll XX?" That sounds like a ready action outside of combat.
I would resolve it as an attempted ambush, with normal initiative rolls, to see whether you accomplish the thing you were preparing to do.
Why would you have to roll initiative for standing up and saying hello?
I wouldn't give a character a free combat action, no. The enemy should have a chance to act first, and initiative is the system used for determining that order. Otherwise why would a player not just walk around saying that they've perpetually "readied" an attack or whatever?
Saying hello is not a combat action.
By the new rules it can be, as an influence action
We're heading into pedantic territory here but an action taken during combat =/= an action that necessarily triggers combat. One can use the influence action during combat, but its use is not necessarily a trigger for initiative. Additionally, the influence action (as well as the hide and utilize actions) says nothing about it being used on "your turn", whereas the ready action does.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Ready [Action]
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
GUYS
I think this is too many quotes
We're talking about whether using the Ready Action or just waiting for something to happen is forcing combat. So it could go on a bit.
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the surprise round was logical, when applied correctly. 5.24 eliminated the surprise, and clearly doesn't allow players to "ready an action", otherwise they could have just left the surprise rules unchanged.
5E never had a surprised round. The revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Invisible: Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
The question is; Since the sharpshooter is readying his action to shoot the target that tries to attack or cast a spell, and he remains hidden before it; would he be able to fire off a shot before combat starts? How would you go about it?
No. Ready is a combat action, it cannot be used outside of combat.
Come on now. You sure you want to go down that road? There are a ton of things that PCs do that can be classified as combat actions that are perfectly fine outside of combat.
True ... but rules wise ... Ready specifically refers to a prepared action during combat that has a specific trigger that then uses your reaction.
Characters out of combat say what they are doing and something they say may be similar to the "Ready action" but it isn't a ready action.
So, RAW, neither PCs nor NPCs make attacks out of combat. Readying an attack action means that the situation is already considered combat.
In terms of running this scenario, I always have both the players and NPCs roll initiative at the beginning of the interaction and THEN resolve the events that occur using initiative since in a context like this even a conversation might be considered combat. In addition, it also makes sense both narratively and rules wise if the sharpshooter then uses their ready action if one of the characters chooses to do something provocative (attack or cast a spell for example) on their turn.
This also avoids the problem of everyone rolling initiative and the characters having a turn before the sharp shooter. This can be resolved narratively as the sharpshooter just being slow and if that is what the DM thinks is possible then there is no issue but if the DM thinks the sharpshooter is likely to go first then the DM can give the sharpshooter advantage on initiative. If the DM thinks the chances are extremely small that the sharpshooter not go first, the DM could assign an initiative of 25 or 30 to almost guarantee the sharpshooter going first. The other approach is to start initiative before active combat and allow the sharpshooter to have used the ready action.
All of those options can work narratively and still fall within RAW but the rules themselves don't cover making attacks out of combat (though a DM can certainly choose to do it that way if they want to).
Here is the thing we all understand the rules - they have been explained ad infinitum in this thread for anyone that didn't recall the exact wording. Now we know.
Most tables I have played at and all games I have DM'd the accepted mechanic is slightly different - 99% of the time initiative is rolled and combat starts - there is that 1% when npc's or pc's narratively have put significant time and effort into an ambush. Irrespective of the rule - I am going to give them that 1/2 round of combat free then initiative order kicks in. In my opinion this fosters creativity on the part of both the players and the dm.
To each their own, as long as you make the same call consistently throughout the campaign - its not an issue.
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This is exactly how the surprise round works in my game, with the exception the first round ignores initiative order for every character who is surprised, and then starts from the top, for the next turn. Alert bypasses this, but weirdly, have only had one player take that particular feat.
The exception of being outside the turn order, is if someone is very fast (rolls a very high initiative beating out the ambushers, who will have advantage on said initiative) they will have a reaction available to them.
This of course is just how I run it, in detail.
First of all, where does it say that? (I mean that literally, I can't find a definition other than: "Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define")
Second of all, my point was that I feel like Wotc is muddling the line between combat and non-combat encounters. It was not that 'since influence can effect combat, someone who talks before combat should go last', or any other nonsense.
Additionally, (responding to the person before me) I would say the sniper can take the ready action, as it fits the definition exactly. It could get a little broken if the players use it in every encounter, but as long as they're not metagaming and your ambushes are actually surprising, then they shouldn't get to use this often.
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It's in the 2024 rules glossary:
Some of you are saying that it is always a combat situation and you should always roll initiative.
So if there was an ambusher planning to shoot somebody when they appear, roll initiative.
But if the ambusher loses initiative, nothing has happened to trigger combat.
If the party doesn't detect the attacker, what do they do? They are unaware of the shooter why would they jump into combat mode?
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It is a bit of a pickle under 2024 rules, yeah. RAW, you'd all roll initiative and I suppose what would happen from there would depend on whether the PCs can see the ambushers, which is a whole other conundrum. My only real contribution to this discussion is that the ready action itself is not appropriate out of combat.
That's why I like my house rule of allowing replacing initiative with stealth, and limiting initiative by perception -- if you roll well enough on stealth to not be spotted, you'll go first.
How I would do it is have everyone roll initiative the moment the ambusher shoots, not when they plan to shoot.
Then, I would establish surprise.
So if the ambusher shoots, but rolls low on the initiative, it wouldn't matter because in many cases, the target would be surprised and not be able to attack in the 2014 rules, or roll with disadvantage on the initiative for the 2024 rules.
If someone says they ready an action with a plan to attack, that, to me, means nothing mechanically until they take actual action against the target.
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At least you didn't get the 5.24 rules wrong this time. The last time you criticized my use of slang, you misquoted the rules. That's the equivalent of using bad grammar when correcting a grammar mistake by someone else.
Getting a turn where you aren't allowed to take any actions is the verbal equivalent of not getting a turn during the round. Unless a specific feature referred to "before the creature takes a turn in combat", the two sentences literally mean the same thing.
I like having a rules lawyer at my table. I don't like when they interrupt with stuff that doesn't effect the game, or get the rules wrong in trying to correct me.
If I tell the players to roll initiative while I am rolling the surprise attack by an unseen creature (5.0 rules), and the rules lawyer objects because the first round of combat should proceed in initiative order even though everyone except the attacker is surprised, they aren't improving the game. Waiting for everyone to roll initiative, then adding everyone to the tracker, then going through each player's turn, when they can't take any actions, before I start rolling dice doesn't add any value. It just slows down combat even more. Thus the slang use of "surprise round" is not an actual problem, as long as the rules are being followed.
Which rules this i get wrong last time and misquoted?
Getting a turn means getting a turn period. Even a dying creature get a turn despite being unable to move, act or react, which is important because they make death saving throw at the
endstart of it.You can run surprise attack by your monsters however you like at your table. Hopefully, in the same way for your players. My first comment in this thread that you also quoted was in that vein.
Using the 2014 rules, I think following the initiative order is important because it allows some characters to have their reactions available, like casting Shield or defending themselves if their reaction permits.
Isn't it when they start their turn?
It reminds me of the Dragon Talk: Sage Advice video with the Devs talking surprise and initiative, basically relying on rolling initiative when signaling intent to attack.
But the ambush scenario where a surprised creature is unawere of an incoming attack at least in 2014 was not able to take action before the ambusher do so even if its turn in the initiative was before the ambusher, it could at best react, where in 2024 if the surprised creature's turn is before the ambusher's turn, it can act normally. .Here lies the point of contention.
Is the DM still calling for initiative when players have no idea of what's about to happen to them? Doing so inevitably will make them suspect something and may if acting first, take actions against it such as run, take cover, hide, cast a spell etc . While not calling for initiative make sure to not alert them but get ahead of initiqtive. It comes down to this, do DM want players to know initiative occur or force some action before it ?
Perhaps guidelines on how to handle such situation differently will be found in the Dungeon Master Guide. I wound't be surprised if the Player's Handbook reference to using Dexterity score instead of rolling Initiative may be part of guideline suggestions, acting as a sort of passive initiative.
@tarodnet Yeah i meant start of it
Equally as important - if the players want to force action before the NPC's are aware - I think they should have the opportunity to do so IF it makes sense in the given scenario.
This isn't the only different between 5.0 and 5.24, thus my previous comments about calling out someone for using slang and then getting the rules wrong.
In my other comment I specifically mentioned "unless the characters have an ability that could be used". So my example was clearly based upon characters who don't have any reactions that can impact whatever is happening during the "surprise round".
Neither edition has a perfect surprise system. I don't like creating home brew game mechanics. It can be very confusing for new players, as well as for those who are playing at multiple tables, each with a very long list of complicated home brew rules. I don't like the new edition's treatment of surprise, but will it be a big enough problem to require a rule change?
GUYS
I think this is too many quotes
We're talking about whether using the Ready Action or just waiting for something to happen is forcing combat. So it could go on a bit.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
May be you misunderstand what i meant by that if you don't agree that the revision to the core rules only modify how characters roll initiative during surprise but otherwise doesn't change how one can act or react, then what other effect you think there is other than this?
True ... but rules wise ... Ready specifically refers to a prepared action during combat that has a specific trigger that then uses your reaction.
Characters out of combat say what they are doing and something they say may be similar to the "Ready action" but it isn't a ready action.
So, RAW, neither PCs nor NPCs make attacks out of combat. Readying an attack action means that the situation is already considered combat.
In terms of running this scenario, I always have both the players and NPCs roll initiative at the beginning of the interaction and THEN resolve the events that occur using initiative since in a context like this even a conversation might be considered combat. In addition, it also makes sense both narratively and rules wise if the sharpshooter then uses their ready action if one of the characters chooses to do something provocative (attack or cast a spell for example) on their turn.
This also avoids the problem of everyone rolling initiative and the characters having a turn before the sharp shooter. This can be resolved narratively as the sharpshooter just being slow and if that is what the DM thinks is possible then there is no issue but if the DM thinks the sharpshooter is likely to go first then the DM can give the sharpshooter advantage on initiative. If the DM thinks the chances are extremely small that the sharpshooter not go first, the DM could assign an initiative of 25 or 30 to almost guarantee the sharpshooter going first. The other approach is to start initiative before active combat and allow the sharpshooter to have used the ready action.
All of those options can work narratively and still fall within RAW but the rules themselves don't cover making attacks out of combat (though a DM can certainly choose to do it that way if they want to).
Here is the thing we all understand the rules - they have been explained ad infinitum in this thread for anyone that didn't recall the exact wording. Now we know.
Most tables I have played at and all games I have DM'd the accepted mechanic is slightly different - 99% of the time initiative is rolled and combat starts - there is that 1% when npc's or pc's narratively have put significant time and effort into an ambush. Irrespective of the rule - I am going to give them that 1/2 round of combat free then initiative order kicks in. In my opinion this fosters creativity on the part of both the players and the dm.
To each their own, as long as you make the same call consistently throughout the campaign - its not an issue.