So for my next session the party will find themselves tracking, and hopefully saving a 14 year girl who has been abducted and is in transit to be sacrificed for a Lich's phlactery (Yeah I'm doing a whole thing)
However my problem lies in that I haven't exactly painted myself into a corner but for narrative continuity the party is gonna find the abductor to be a villain they can most likely NOT fight to the death and win, even though there is 7 of them. So my thinking is either set an hp threshold that prompts a retreat from the enemy or figure out a way for them to figure out, "Hey, just hold this guy off while someone frees the girl and get us a head start to run away."
Main problem is my party always fights to the death, even if I have have enemies stop to surrender, parlay, or actually flee the battle the party always executes, executes, or just chases as many fleeing enemies down as they can to finish them off.
Any tips other than just watching them get shit kicked? I know I could just nerf the mob but he is going to be a recurring problem over the course of the story as the BBEG main henchmen.
I don't want to necessarily have an NPC tell them to grab her and run but I am unsure how else to indicate that might be the way to go. Or we just battle the whole thing out and see what happens.
Presuming the fight happens indoors, you could have area effect spells cause a cave-in. Progressive cave-ins can give the chance for the big bad to escape and also chase the players out of the area.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Introduce a third group and establish that they are of a similar power level to the PCs then have the PCs witness the main foe curbstomp this group.
For example:
The PCs have on a couple of occasions fought members of a certain bandit gang. The PCs did win both fights but only after spending a lot of resources. At some point, the PCs witness a mysterious figure fighting a number of bandits. The cloaked figure wins handily, defeating the bandits without injury.
Now the PCs have been tasked with rescuing a girl. They track her down, only to find that her captor is the mysterious figure...
Now some players will still attack, perhaps metagaming that the GM wouldn't set an impossible task. If so, feel free to TPK them *evil laugh*. Then retcon back to the beginning of the fight and say, "Now, you want to try a different approach?".
My biggest advice to you is - try not to railroad your players into making certain decisions.
I understand the frustration - you've figured out the story in your head, like it's a book or movie and you know the way you want it to go.
The players are in control of the destiny of their characters though and if they decide that they're all murder hobos who never accept surrender then you need to roll with that, rather than arbitrarily force them to do something different. It will come across as stilted and odd at best if you try to convince them they should behave differently to how they normally do.
So, how do you deal with this? For me, it's about consequences. They'll get a reputation as merciless killers and may find that they don't get the help they want from npcs, or they may get approached by shady characters looking to hire them for dirty work, on the assumption they'll do evil tasks because it's known they're cold-blooded killers. Even just talking to such npcs will possibly have further consequences.
I believe it's about making the game world react to how the players play their characters, but at the same time, you need to ensure they have a fair chance at survival, rather than just killing them for a poor choice - there should usually be some form of escape.
But ... essentially, the Players are there to be heroes - or at least "badasses". Running away is not heroic. Backing down is not heroic.
Now ... slaughtering opponents trying to surrender is not heroic, and I think Stormnight hit that nail on the head exactly, regarding consequences.
If you put players in a situation, they'll fight.
If you don't want them to fight - don't force them into a situation.
If they wander toward the fight on their own, a "kind" DM will give the party lots of clues as to how strong the opponent they are wandering toward is. If they still walk into it - well, then stupid actions have consequences.
I would absolutely not "retcon" and replay the battle. That's telling the party that actions do not have consequences, since they get "do overs".
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I've personally found that, if given enough of a hint that the party is way underpowered for the battle, they may change tactics. This, however, depends on the party, and you do say that they seem to fight to the death. Maybe, your party is conditioned to potentially winnable battles and so choose to keep fighting rather than living to fight another day. I would be tempted to try "shock and awe" as well as villainous bragging and making the bad guy quite overpowered just to get the point across, e.g.
"Ah, my master was right. Stronger individuals, and seven! The perfect number! You know, my master only needs your souls. It'll be such great times dragging your seven hideously mutilated and limbless bodies." Followed by some really showy high powered spell.
Some real solid answers there . A different thought, rather than the consequences line or the narrative shock and awe is: To have the party state their intent well before their mission launches i.e. "we will rescue the girl no matter what." Be sure to allow them to come up with a statement that aligns itself with the character's personal motivations. If they stray from the mission... remind them and let the players consider their actions again... if they hold to the mission, yet, surprise you... enjoy!!
Sun Tsu talks about the "Golden Bridge" in The Art of War, a way for the opponent to escape a battle they cannot win. Your players don't offer this to their opponents, however, it's pretty important for that retreat to be available otherwise they will only fight to the death.
With that being said, I agree with a lot of what is said here and I've used some of these ideas to great success. The first piece is to show the players that there are other options to combat beyond killing anything that moves, you've tried this and they haven't taken the hint. The next step is to present them with an opponent that shows them their mortality, you're doing this now with the Lich. However, you cannot out right kill them, that is just going to cement the idea that death is the only answer.
Start with Gigaflop's idea, have an NPC ask them, in no uncertain terms, what their plan/goal is. This will give them something to rally behind, which should make losing more painful. Second, do as JCAUDM and Greenstone_Walker suggest and over narrate how powerful this Lich is. Describe and give them elaborate traps, show slain heroes and have abundant information about what has been done to become a Lich. Then we get to the fight, since the players will probably try their hand at it based on your input, and this is where we set up the final piece. Have the Lich shrug off their attacks, have him toy with the players, taunt them, and brazenly flaunt that the players can not do anything to cause him worry. When he takes enough damage, have him start picking off the players, one by one, and taunt them as he does it. If the players put him down to past half health, he escapes, period, have him take the girl and flee. Don't use anything mundane like a trap door or cave in, use teleport, or something like dimension door, you want to make it so the players have to deal with his greater power.
The last piece of this whole thing is to let the players find him a second time, and this is where you finish the job. The fight will inevitably continue, and now it's on a timer, the girl is almost ready to be sacrificed and the Lich is tired of the pests in his way. Win or lose the players will fight, and you will have had enough time for the Lich to fortify himself again, take some healing measure to get most, or all his HP back. If the players win, hooorah! They come home victorious and the town celebrates the return of the girl, however they are, as StormKnight put it, marked as killers and people are a bit more aware. If they lose, they don't die, instead they are deposited, bereft of their belongings, at the doorstep of the town. They are also in possession of a small box...it shows proof that the lich finished the sacrifice.
On the off chance that the players don't follow, they let the Lich go and acknowledge the gulf that is the difference in power, reward them. Yes the girl may die, however something else happens that can be seen as a boon. Recognition of a valiant attempt, they meet an NPC that offers to help them learn how to defeat the lich, on to a side quest. As they exit the Lich's home, they find some information that can be used to stop the ritual and drive off the lich. Half-way back to the city they run into a group of slayers who offer to help, but the players are not allowed to help as they are in such ragged condition. Something that can allow them to recover from this, but highlights that their retreat was a good decision. This approach touches on what Vexedent mentions about consequences and actions, you're not giving them the win, you're showing them the outcome of their choices.
What I've done a few times that has been successful is have the BBEG launch a few devastating attacks then walk away and let his minions mop up for him. It may not be entirely realistic, but it's consistent with the tactics of cinematic bad guys.
csheets416, it sounds as though your players' dedication to eradication is causing you a bit of frustration; you could use this as an opportunity to demonstrate that not all foes have to be slaughtered, and there are sometimes dire consequences if they try.
Of course, a TPK isn't an ideal way of bringing this lesson to the session, but Stormknight said it best:
My biggest advice to you is - try not to railroad your players into making certain decisions.
And that works both ways. If you've given them free reign to show no mercy thus far, they'll have very little incentive to stay their blades.
My advice, for what it's worth, is to put your narrative hat on throughout the battle; let them know that this isn't a fight they can win easily.
DM: 'Standing before you, an evil smirk stretched tightly across his pale, taught face, his sunken eyes seem to ripple with unnatural power. The torches spit and splutter in their sconces, and even the shadows seems to shirk from his presence.'
Player: 'Time to bring him down! I close the distance and swing my longsword, aiming for his neck! *roll*' Yes! Critical hit!
DM: 'With a mighty roar, you strike true, the steel humming through the air and slashing across his body - a perfect strike, as good as any you've made before. Despite your effort, he barely flinches, the smirk growing wider. "Foolish whelp! Your pitiful ability is no match for the power I wield!"
Alternatively, offer an incentive to keep the enemy alive - show that there can be more rewards to be had than the thrill of the kill.
DM: 'The half-elf's head pauses for a moment, balanced atop the shoulders of the body it once belonged to. Then, head and torso part ways with pump of sticky blood. On seeing his lieutenant dispatched so easily, the leader throws down his bleached wooden staff with a clatter. "Wait!" He cries, "Let me live, and I'll show you where King Arundel keeps the Talons of Arumaht."
my players also like to finish every battle. I do like the idea that it is their story so when they got to the henchmen that needed to stick around for a while i got creative. Mine was a green hag so I had her have a henchmen of a flesh golm. This provided a new stronger target in the way and the hag vanished.... my PCs did a bad job picking up on the fact that the physical attacks were not working and they eventually submitted to the fact they had to find another way. But they were strong enough to win, just not smart enough in this case.
Guess I'm trying to say, I never took the chose away from them. I just squeezed in what I needed to keep the story moving also.
My biggest advice to you is - try not to railroad your players into making certain decisions.
While this is important, it's a transaction that runs both ways.
Do the players have any reason to know or suspect that the DM is throwing them into a fight designed to be unwinnable? Have the players' tactics of charging in, fighting until there's nothing left to fight and then moving on been treated as the standard MO for playing the game up until now?
Yes, don't railroad your players. Yes, let them take the consequences of their own actions, but if the entire campaign has been framed one way and then you bait and switch them into an unwinnable fight that's not teaching them a lesson so much as setting them up.
Players have the choice to knock unconscious without killing when they reduce an enemy to 0hp - your monsters and bosses have the same choice. I would advise having an NPC before the fight explain that this enemy is beyond them and that the best bet might be to avoid a fight, or fight to distract/delay while a rescue happens. If the party fights and makes no effort to run then the boss can just knock a few of them unconscious and laugh at their paltry efforts. No need to kill any of them at all unless the story would benefit from that. You could do a capture/escape scene after that, or have the boss loot some of their cool stuff before going about his business and leaving them to wake up beaten and bruised. There are many non-fatal consequences to choose from. Let the party learn when discretion is the better part of valour.
To clarify the party has a learned habit of fighting to the death, many characters have died from this. The dice gods seem to always be in their favor as they time and time again cheat death (which is really kind of awesome and makes for great stories) so they tend to just "let God sort them out" sometimes they do surprise me as they choose a diplomatic method but that is with an obvious foe that they do not want to mess with. I.E. a young dragon made them talk it out, but then the other day a full grown fang dragon (OLD SCHOOL) demanded the magic item they recovered under penalty of devouring one of the captured (party forgot he was unconscious and booked leaving him to the Dragon) members. They refused and watched their comrade be eaten just to attempt to run, so what they do is anyone's guess.
I'm so anti railroad they are running several plots at once because I only provide clues and the like while not actually forcing them down any particular plot line. Usually they get enough of a specific villain and then actively purse that plot. Just trying to advance narratives in a different way to keep everything fresh feeling, ya know?
Players have the choice to knock unconscious without killing when they reduce an enemy to 0hp - your monsters and bosses have the same choice...
I think this is something that we as DMs lose track of all to often - ironically in a thread about players losing track of non-lethal options :p
If they have significant magic items, they lose them here.
If you're willing to derail or change the campaign arc, enslave the whole party!
They might find that "14 year girl who has been abducted" that they're trying to rescue in the dungeons of the BBEG, when they're prisoners themselves. Now the adventure is trying to find a way to escape, and take her with them.
Plus it gives you - as a DM - a very fertile ground for planting possible future story hooks and threads in the prison dungeon. Perhaps they run across an NPC who they also free, and now "owes them a favor". If the NPC doesn't make it out in the escape, they can entrust the party with a secret that needs be taken care of .... " *cough* *choke* ... I'm not going to make it out .... but please, you must save them all .... " ;)
Probably not the story arc you'd originally envisioned - but a good way to "roll with the punches", springboard off of this situation for new adventures, and drive a non-lethal lesson home to the party about picking battles.
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Have you considered that the reason your PCs don't run away from things is that it isn't very fun to run away from things? I think you need to think more carefully about how you're staging this encounter.
You indicated that "narrative continuity" requires that this be an enemy the PCs can't fight to the death, but that seems a bit flimsy, mainly because this sounds like a justification that your players will not care about. Based on the information you've given us, I don't see any reason the girl's abductor couldn't just be a powerful, albeit CR-appropriate minion of this recurring villain you have planned. Is there a reason that absolutely requires this be an impossible fight? If the answer is no, then you should redesign the encounter completely.
On the other hand, if this absolutely must be an impossible fight, then you need to approach it differently. As others have noted, you should make it absolutely clear to your players that they can't handle this foe. Narrative clues are a great idea, but if necessary, you should just flat-out tell them. Don't put the PCs in an impossible situation and then let them fail because they didn't get the hint.
More importantly, though, if this is an impossible fight, the way you stage the encounter needs to clearly suggest other options. Perhaps something about the environment or the terrain where they encounter the villain offers itself to a stealthy approach or to an appropriate distraction that will let them save the girl. Retreating is also generally difficult in D&D, but maybe there's a very clear escape route they can use to avoid being chased down by a much more powerful enemy. If this turns into a fun chase scene, or leads the PCs into dangerous territory where they'll have to keep the rescued girl safe, then all the better!
In the end, you need to make your players feel like heroes, not cowards. And remember, though players sometimes make poor decisions about when to fight and when to run, you're the one who creates these situations in the first place. In other words, if you don't want something to be a combat encounter, then don't build it like a combat encounter.
Encounter went fine, the party doesn't typically run because they don't think about it, or attempting stealth, or diplomacy. Cost them big time as half the group tried to sneak around and the other half went kicking doors in, bringing the whole farm of ghouls and gnolls down on their heads.
Ranger died, Deathbringer showed up to prevent them saving the girl just as they got to her so now having expended all spells and abilities they are ready to try and run, so....they did it all on their own lol.
The fact that half of the group did try to sneak around suggests to me that at least some of them did consider alternative options. That the other players didn't think of this, or disregarded it, makes me think that you're still not making these alternatives as clear to your players as you seem to think.
Given the way you set this up, what would have been a way the PCs could have completed their objective (rescuing the girl) and how did you signal that?
Did Deathbringer show up because that's the way you'd written it, or was it a result of the PCs actions in making noise, starting combat, etc.?
PCs had just gotten finished traveling through a bog and fighting two wraiths so they were a bit wounded but some of them get blood thirsty so the combat started their hunger for battle. A few others wanted to scope out the barns, sheds, and farmhouses so they attempted to be sneaky.
Upon hearing noises in the barn the Cleric, whose character is portrayed as very impatient, kicked the barn doors open to reveal a host of enemies, he did this and the same time the dwarf snuck into the shed where the noise from the barn arose the baddes in there. Quickly they were surrounded and panicking because they had two different mindsets. Eventually they discovered the girls screams leading them to the house so they started cutting a path to her but all the noise drew the Deathbringer from the barn he was in and the session ended with him crashing into the house.
they are all planning and excited to grab the girl and have a chase encounter because they exhausted themselves by pulling the whole farm down on top of themselves and the simple description of the Deathbringer has them wanting no piece of him atm.
They knew they had every reason to believe there was a fair amount of enemies, and some strong undead on site, they head the girl's screams, the heard ghoul noises, they had the soldiers that were beaten back to town telling them about the large force and large creatures wrecking their ranks.
The encounter was set up so their approach would pretty much dictate how deadly or not deadly it would be. Stealth, easy. Sweeping each building one at a time, moderate, bringing the whole place on top of them, deadly. They know how I roll and they do like it.
They can't necessarily stand up to the death bringer even at full strength yet and they're aware. And I know some DM's consider it 'bad form' to have things present in the world that the party can't handle but the party loves it. They like the thrill of not knowing and take responsibility for their actions. So far fun level at an all time high.
So for my next session the party will find themselves tracking, and hopefully saving a 14 year girl who has been abducted and is in transit to be sacrificed for a Lich's phlactery (Yeah I'm doing a whole thing)
However my problem lies in that I haven't exactly painted myself into a corner but for narrative continuity the party is gonna find the abductor to be a villain they can most likely NOT fight to the death and win, even though there is 7 of them. So my thinking is either set an hp threshold that prompts a retreat from the enemy or figure out a way for them to figure out, "Hey, just hold this guy off while someone frees the girl and get us a head start to run away."
Main problem is my party always fights to the death, even if I have have enemies stop to surrender, parlay, or actually flee the battle the party always executes, executes, or just chases as many fleeing enemies down as they can to finish them off.
Any tips other than just watching them get shit kicked? I know I could just nerf the mob but he is going to be a recurring problem over the course of the story as the BBEG main henchmen.
I don't want to necessarily have an NPC tell them to grab her and run but I am unsure how else to indicate that might be the way to go. Or we just battle the whole thing out and see what happens.
Presuming the fight happens indoors, you could have area effect spells cause a cave-in. Progressive cave-ins can give the chance for the big bad to escape and also chase the players out of the area.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Introduce a third group and establish that they are of a similar power level to the PCs then have the PCs witness the main foe curbstomp this group.
For example:
The PCs have on a couple of occasions fought members of a certain bandit gang. The PCs did win both fights but only after spending a lot of resources. At some point, the PCs witness a mysterious figure fighting a number of bandits. The cloaked figure wins handily, defeating the bandits without injury.
Now the PCs have been tasked with rescuing a girl. They track her down, only to find that her captor is the mysterious figure...
Now some players will still attack, perhaps metagaming that the GM wouldn't set an impossible task. If so, feel free to TPK them *evil laugh*. Then retcon back to the beginning of the fight and say, "Now, you want to try a different approach?".
My biggest advice to you is - try not to railroad your players into making certain decisions.
I understand the frustration - you've figured out the story in your head, like it's a book or movie and you know the way you want it to go.
The players are in control of the destiny of their characters though and if they decide that they're all murder hobos who never accept surrender then you need to roll with that, rather than arbitrarily force them to do something different. It will come across as stilted and odd at best if you try to convince them they should behave differently to how they normally do.
So, how do you deal with this? For me, it's about consequences. They'll get a reputation as merciless killers and may find that they don't get the help they want from npcs, or they may get approached by shady characters looking to hire them for dirty work, on the assumption they'll do evil tasks because it's known they're cold-blooded killers. Even just talking to such npcs will possibly have further consequences.
I believe it's about making the game world react to how the players play their characters, but at the same time, you need to ensure they have a fair chance at survival, rather than just killing them for a poor choice - there should usually be some form of escape.
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But ... essentially, the Players are there to be heroes - or at least "badasses". Running away is not heroic. Backing down is not heroic.
Now ... slaughtering opponents trying to surrender is not heroic, and I think Stormnight hit that nail on the head exactly, regarding consequences.
If you put players in a situation, they'll fight.
If you don't want them to fight - don't force them into a situation.
If they wander toward the fight on their own, a "kind" DM will give the party lots of clues as to how strong the opponent they are wandering toward is. If they still walk into it - well, then stupid actions have consequences.
I would absolutely not "retcon" and replay the battle. That's telling the party that actions do not have consequences, since they get "do overs".
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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I've personally found that, if given enough of a hint that the party is way underpowered for the battle, they may change tactics. This, however, depends on the party, and you do say that they seem to fight to the death. Maybe, your party is conditioned to potentially winnable battles and so choose to keep fighting rather than living to fight another day. I would be tempted to try "shock and awe" as well as villainous bragging and making the bad guy quite overpowered just to get the point across, e.g.
"Ah, my master was right. Stronger individuals, and seven! The perfect number! You know, my master only needs your souls. It'll be such great times dragging your seven hideously mutilated and limbless bodies." Followed by some really showy high powered spell.
Some real solid answers there . A different thought, rather than the consequences line or the narrative shock and awe is: To have the party state their intent well before their mission launches i.e. "we will rescue the girl no matter what." Be sure to allow them to come up with a statement that
aligns itself with the character's personal motivations. If they stray from the mission... remind them and let the players consider their actions again... if they hold to the mission, yet, surprise you... enjoy!!Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Sun Tsu talks about the "Golden Bridge" in The Art of War, a way for the opponent to escape a battle they cannot win. Your players don't offer this to their opponents, however, it's pretty important for that retreat to be available otherwise they will only fight to the death.
With that being said, I agree with a lot of what is said here and I've used some of these ideas to great success. The first piece is to show the players that there are other options to combat beyond killing anything that moves, you've tried this and they haven't taken the hint. The next step is to present them with an opponent that shows them their mortality, you're doing this now with the Lich. However, you cannot out right kill them, that is just going to cement the idea that death is the only answer.
Start with Gigaflop's idea, have an NPC ask them, in no uncertain terms, what their plan/goal is. This will give them something to rally behind, which should make losing more painful. Second, do as JCAUDM and Greenstone_Walker suggest and over narrate how powerful this Lich is. Describe and give them elaborate traps, show slain heroes and have abundant information about what has been done to become a Lich. Then we get to the fight, since the players will probably try their hand at it based on your input, and this is where we set up the final piece. Have the Lich shrug off their attacks, have him toy with the players, taunt them, and brazenly flaunt that the players can not do anything to cause him worry. When he takes enough damage, have him start picking off the players, one by one, and taunt them as he does it. If the players put him down to past half health, he escapes, period, have him take the girl and flee. Don't use anything mundane like a trap door or cave in, use teleport, or something like dimension door, you want to make it so the players have to deal with his greater power.
The last piece of this whole thing is to let the players find him a second time, and this is where you finish the job. The fight will inevitably continue, and now it's on a timer, the girl is almost ready to be sacrificed and the Lich is tired of the pests in his way. Win or lose the players will fight, and you will have had enough time for the Lich to fortify himself again, take some healing measure to get most, or all his HP back. If the players win, hooorah! They come home victorious and the town celebrates the return of the girl, however they are, as StormKnight put it, marked as killers and people are a bit more aware. If they lose, they don't die, instead they are deposited, bereft of their belongings, at the doorstep of the town. They are also in possession of a small box...it shows proof that the lich finished the sacrifice.
On the off chance that the players don't follow, they let the Lich go and acknowledge the gulf that is the difference in power, reward them. Yes the girl may die, however something else happens that can be seen as a boon. Recognition of a valiant attempt, they meet an NPC that offers to help them learn how to defeat the lich, on to a side quest. As they exit the Lich's home, they find some information that can be used to stop the ritual and drive off the lich. Half-way back to the city they run into a group of slayers who offer to help, but the players are not allowed to help as they are in such ragged condition. Something that can allow them to recover from this, but highlights that their retreat was a good decision. This approach touches on what Vexedent mentions about consequences and actions, you're not giving them the win, you're showing them the outcome of their choices.
What I've done a few times that has been successful is have the BBEG launch a few devastating attacks then walk away and let his minions mop up for him. It may not be entirely realistic, but it's consistent with the tactics of cinematic bad guys.
csheets416, it sounds as though your players' dedication to eradication is causing you a bit of frustration; you could use this as an opportunity to demonstrate that not all foes have to be slaughtered, and there are sometimes dire consequences if they try.
Of course, a TPK isn't an ideal way of bringing this lesson to the session, but Stormknight said it best:
And that works both ways. If you've given them free reign to show no mercy thus far, they'll have very little incentive to stay their blades.
My advice, for what it's worth, is to put your narrative hat on throughout the battle; let them know that this isn't a fight they can win easily.
Alternatively, offer an incentive to keep the enemy alive - show that there can be more rewards to be had than the thrill of the kill.
my players also like to finish every battle. I do like the idea that it is their story so when they got to the henchmen that needed to stick around for a while i got creative. Mine was a green hag so I had her have a henchmen of a flesh golm. This provided a new stronger target in the way and the hag vanished.... my PCs did a bad job picking up on the fact that the physical attacks were not working and they eventually submitted to the fact they had to find another way. But they were strong enough to win, just not smart enough in this case.
Guess I'm trying to say, I never took the chose away from them. I just squeezed in what I needed to keep the story moving also.
Good luck!
While this is important, it's a transaction that runs both ways.
Do the players have any reason to know or suspect that the DM is throwing them into a fight designed to be unwinnable? Have the players' tactics of charging in, fighting until there's nothing left to fight and then moving on been treated as the standard MO for playing the game up until now?
Yes, don't railroad your players. Yes, let them take the consequences of their own actions, but if the entire campaign has been framed one way and then you bait and switch them into an unwinnable fight that's not teaching them a lesson so much as setting them up.
Players have the choice to knock unconscious without killing when they reduce an enemy to 0hp - your monsters and bosses have the same choice. I would advise having an NPC before the fight explain that this enemy is beyond them and that the best bet might be to avoid a fight, or fight to distract/delay while a rescue happens. If the party fights and makes no effort to run then the boss can just knock a few of them unconscious and laugh at their paltry efforts. No need to kill any of them at all unless the story would benefit from that. You could do a capture/escape scene after that, or have the boss loot some of their cool stuff before going about his business and leaving them to wake up beaten and bruised. There are many non-fatal consequences to choose from. Let the party learn when discretion is the better part of valour.
Thanks for all the input.
To clarify the party has a learned habit of fighting to the death, many characters have died from this. The dice gods seem to always be in their favor as they time and time again cheat death (which is really kind of awesome and makes for great stories) so they tend to just "let God sort them out" sometimes they do surprise me as they choose a diplomatic method but that is with an obvious foe that they do not want to mess with. I.E. a young dragon made them talk it out, but then the other day a full grown fang dragon (OLD SCHOOL) demanded the magic item they recovered under penalty of devouring one of the captured (party forgot he was unconscious and booked leaving him to the Dragon) members. They refused and watched their comrade be eaten just to attempt to run, so what they do is anyone's guess.
I'm so anti railroad they are running several plots at once because I only provide clues and the like while not actually forcing them down any particular plot line. Usually they get enough of a specific villain and then actively purse that plot. Just trying to advance narratives in a different way to keep everything fresh feeling, ya know?
I think this is something that we as DMs lose track of all to often - ironically in a thread about players losing track of non-lethal options :p
If they have significant magic items, they lose them here.
If you're willing to derail or change the campaign arc, enslave the whole party!
They might find that "14 year girl who has been abducted" that they're trying to rescue in the dungeons of the BBEG, when they're prisoners themselves. Now the adventure is trying to find a way to escape, and take her with them.
Plus it gives you - as a DM - a very fertile ground for planting possible future story hooks and threads in the prison dungeon. Perhaps they run across an NPC who they also free, and now "owes them a favor". If the NPC doesn't make it out in the escape, they can entrust the party with a secret that needs be taken care of .... " *cough* *choke* ... I'm not going to make it out .... but please, you must save them all .... " ;)
Probably not the story arc you'd originally envisioned - but a good way to "roll with the punches", springboard off of this situation for new adventures, and drive a non-lethal lesson home to the party about picking battles.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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I like it Vex
Have you considered that the reason your PCs don't run away from things is that it isn't very fun to run away from things? I think you need to think more carefully about how you're staging this encounter.
You indicated that "narrative continuity" requires that this be an enemy the PCs can't fight to the death, but that seems a bit flimsy, mainly because this sounds like a justification that your players will not care about. Based on the information you've given us, I don't see any reason the girl's abductor couldn't just be a powerful, albeit CR-appropriate minion of this recurring villain you have planned. Is there a reason that absolutely requires this be an impossible fight? If the answer is no, then you should redesign the encounter completely.
On the other hand, if this absolutely must be an impossible fight, then you need to approach it differently. As others have noted, you should make it absolutely clear to your players that they can't handle this foe. Narrative clues are a great idea, but if necessary, you should just flat-out tell them. Don't put the PCs in an impossible situation and then let them fail because they didn't get the hint.
More importantly, though, if this is an impossible fight, the way you stage the encounter needs to clearly suggest other options. Perhaps something about the environment or the terrain where they encounter the villain offers itself to a stealthy approach or to an appropriate distraction that will let them save the girl. Retreating is also generally difficult in D&D, but maybe there's a very clear escape route they can use to avoid being chased down by a much more powerful enemy. If this turns into a fun chase scene, or leads the PCs into dangerous territory where they'll have to keep the rescued girl safe, then all the better!
In the end, you need to make your players feel like heroes, not cowards. And remember, though players sometimes make poor decisions about when to fight and when to run, you're the one who creates these situations in the first place. In other words, if you don't want something to be a combat encounter, then don't build it like a combat encounter.
Encounter went fine, the party doesn't typically run because they don't think about it, or attempting stealth, or diplomacy. Cost them big time as half the group tried to sneak around and the other half went kicking doors in, bringing the whole farm of ghouls and gnolls down on their heads.
Ranger died, Deathbringer showed up to prevent them saving the girl just as they got to her so now having expended all spells and abilities they are ready to try and run, so....they did it all on their own lol.
The fact that half of the group did try to sneak around suggests to me that at least some of them did consider alternative options. That the other players didn't think of this, or disregarded it, makes me think that you're still not making these alternatives as clear to your players as you seem to think.
Given the way you set this up, what would have been a way the PCs could have completed their objective (rescuing the girl) and how did you signal that?
Did Deathbringer show up because that's the way you'd written it, or was it a result of the PCs actions in making noise, starting combat, etc.?
PCs had just gotten finished traveling through a bog and fighting two wraiths so they were a bit wounded but some of them get blood thirsty so the combat started their hunger for battle. A few others wanted to scope out the barns, sheds, and farmhouses so they attempted to be sneaky.
Upon hearing noises in the barn the Cleric, whose character is portrayed as very impatient, kicked the barn doors open to reveal a host of enemies, he did this and the same time the dwarf snuck into the shed where the noise from the barn arose the baddes in there. Quickly they were surrounded and panicking because they had two different mindsets. Eventually they discovered the girls screams leading them to the house so they started cutting a path to her but all the noise drew the Deathbringer from the barn he was in and the session ended with him crashing into the house.
they are all planning and excited to grab the girl and have a chase encounter because they exhausted themselves by pulling the whole farm down on top of themselves and the simple description of the Deathbringer has them wanting no piece of him atm.
They knew they had every reason to believe there was a fair amount of enemies, and some strong undead on site, they head the girl's screams, the heard ghoul noises, they had the soldiers that were beaten back to town telling them about the large force and large creatures wrecking their ranks.
The encounter was set up so their approach would pretty much dictate how deadly or not deadly it would be. Stealth, easy. Sweeping each building one at a time, moderate, bringing the whole place on top of them, deadly. They know how I roll and they do like it.
They can't necessarily stand up to the death bringer even at full strength yet and they're aware. And I know some DM's consider it 'bad form' to have things present in the world that the party can't handle but the party loves it. They like the thrill of not knowing and take responsibility for their actions. So far fun level at an all time high.