I'm reasonably far into a campaign I'm running for some friends, they're new players but have taken to the game really well. However, they've become very used to encounters being simply combat. I think the time has come to throw them with some puzzles, trap rooms, magical logic problems. I've got a few ideas cooking already, but was wondering if anyone else had any cool suggestions for dungeon based puzzles that they know have worked in the past. Cheers.
I just made a symbol based sudoku puzzle: since my players are not that into puzzling I simply took a sudoku but changed the numbers into symbols. A single line of the grid is coloured slightly differently and the symbols that are at the bottom of the grid. They need to tap those symbols from left to right on that differently coloured line.
Personally, I would ask the group as a whole if puzzles and the like interested them as a whole. If only one or two said they might enjoy them, I would not introduce them. I know it might sound heretical, but in my experience, if the group is not engaged in a task then the task should probably not be there. Looking at it another way, if no player is interested in overland travel and such, building a third of your game around it makes no sense.
Personally, I would ask the group as a whole if puzzles and the like interested them as a whole. If only one or two said they might enjoy them, I would not introduce them. I know it might sound heretical, but in my experience, if the group is not engaged in a task then the task should probably not be there. Looking at it another way, if no player is interested in overland travel and such, building a third of your game around it makes no sense.
This is true. The complexity comes when some are interested and others are not. The key, to me, is to engage those that are interested long enough that they're satisfied, while not making it too long so that those that are not engaged get bored. It's difficult but very satisfying :)
Straight up puzzles and riddles I find one of the worst things in DND. Or any RPG for that matter. There is no way to justify their inclusion. It quickly becomes player smarts instead of character smarts as well.
That said. There are some puzzles that are fun to do. Basically "traps" that require them to explore the room/area while under some form of pressure/threat. And they need to figure out how to stop this trap or find a way out of the area. These often also require more team work and I find that players are much more engaged in these cases. It also allows each character to truly contribute in their own way.
I take your points about player interest. I should have perhaps mentioned, I am doing this because the players have expressed that they want more than just combat. Some of my players find combat to be frustrating at times, and would prefer a more intellect based challenge. I am trying to cater for everyone.
I really depends on what kind of puzzle if it fits or not. For instance, the aforementioned sudoku symbol puzzle is used as an entrance to a secret hideout; if they make allies within they will get the code itself or hints depending on how well liked they are at that time. I've also had a similar puzzle like the tree puzzle in Black & White (old game now, still great) which opened a secret door. Or another door which they had to open with a puzzle similar to the frog game (https://primefactorisation.com/frogpuzzle/). They're simple and solvable, but not game breakingly slow. I find puzzles to make for great moments if they're:
A) suspenseful B) meaningful C) solvable
A) meaning that there must be some urgency to it. Not necessarily that the room is flooding and the puzzle is the way to open the door, but sometimes simply "the solution to our quest is on the other side of this door". Something must be gained when solving the puzzle or something must be lost if it isn't solved.
B) meaning that there must be a reason why the puzzle is there. The more intricate the puzzle, the more important the location/item is that it is protecting. You would put 6 locks on your front door, but not on the cabinet underneath the kitchen sink. However, that little safe which holds your important papers is not only locked itself with a number code, it's also hidden in a wardrobe, in your bedroom, up the stairs behindsaid six lock. Likewise, you would craft devious traps and puzzles to something that you do not need to access every day because it's a hassle. You don't want to spend 30 minutes to get a sandwich from the fridge.
C) is more based on the group. In my group there are two people that are great with numbers, so any sort of logic puzzle works great for them. Symbolism, however, is a bit trickier for them. The farther away I stray from logic puzzles and more into interpretive things, the more difficult they find it.
Say for instance a puzzle where they must choose between a door with a serpent, lion or dragon symbol on them. The solution is that the door which "holds the creature that is most dangerous without resorting to trickery" is the safe one the lines are blurry. Serpent is probably right out, but dragon or lion both are not really "trickery"-ish. So they would start discussing how which makes sense and which doesn't. In my mind it's clear, since the Lion does not have poison attacks or fire breath and uses his own wits, power and bravery that makes sense to me. But it might not to my group since it´s not a fixed logic but rather an interpretation.
Also note that combat encounters can include puzzles on their own. There are various video games which have done this numerous times. Think of near impenetrable defenses with glaring red "hit me" weak spots or enemies that must be killed in a certain order or using the environment. Heck, even in certain movies enemies have weak spots that can be discovered (Smaug, anyone?) which is sort of a puzzle. Remember that it's always possible to steal something which you can adapt to your own story.
I'm a big fan of RP-appropriate puzzles. I feel like they get the party talking among themselves and they leave players with a feeling of accomplishment other than just killing monsters. Another thing I've started doing since my party is pretty crafty is that I'll just design a problem and let them figure out how they are going to solve it. It could be that there is no solution, although they haven't found a nut yet that they can't crack. It's a lot less work on my part, and as long as I'm willing to hear them out and let them eventually solve the problem, it gives them a chance to flex their creativity. Just be sure to go in with the intention of the problem being solved and also have a backup plan for what happens if the problem can't be solved.
I recommend looking at The Tomb of Nine Gods in Tomb of Annihilation. In my opinion some of those were the best traps/puzzles designed for 5e and running that adventure has changed how I think about 5e traps and puzzles.
The main thing I liked was that some of the puzzles in The Tomb of the Nine Gods released huge numbers of deadly foes if they were interacted with incorrectly, or trapped the characters with foes that had a huge advantage in the environment the characters were trapped in. This did two things. First, if characters failed the puzzle, they were "penalized" by having to fight a big, very challenging combat. To many players that's not a penalty at all -- that's what they enjoy most! If characters solve the puzzle, not only do they save time by avoiding that massive combat, they gain *all* that combat experience without any further risk and danger. So the puzzle goes from a potentially frustrating roadblock to something that is enjoyable and memorable whether or not it gets solved. In my opinion the combats that result from failed puzzles should lean on the "Deadly" side of challenge. The ideal failed puzzle combat will have a decent chance of killing one party member, but not much of a chance of a TPK, and make the party really want to take a long rest afterwards because they've used so many resources. That will motivate the players to actually want to solve the puzzle.
The other thing I love about puzzles (and I consider traps a type of puzzle) is that they encourage players to interact with the imaginary world in ways that are impossible in a video game. Pushing things, prodding things, asking questions of NPC's, using spells in ways they're not necessarily intended, and generally using their big brains in ways that the designer (you) didn't anticipate can only be adjudicated by a living, breathing DM, not by a pre-programmed computer.
I agree with your players, having fights being the only challenge can be quite exhausting and straight up boring. I am a DM myself and here are a few examples how I personally tackle this problem.
We recently played an adventure (based on an Adventure from the PnP "Das Schwarze Auge") were our heroes had to convience someone to give them a prestigious item he just won in a tournement. The asked gentleman was a bit of a, excuse my language, ******bag. The NPC therefor tried to make fun of our dear heroes and asked them to get "Nimue a husband". Half the bar they were in started laughing. The heroes did not understand.
It turns out that Nimue is a mystic figure of a song and only who solves all her challenges - that are considered impossible - are fullfilled. A honorable knight askes now for the word on this and represents himself as judge of the heroes fullfilling the great song and its challenges.
The song talked about the following things:
When a rider rides the sixlegged steed (ride a six legged beast!) When an unborn child waves from kings castle (c-section! :) ) When seven brave companions are standing on finger (a nearby mountain or maybe balance 9 figurines on a finger?) When Trees dance at old fathers stone (you'll need to convince a druid to make the trees dance or summon some ents) When sunlight shines on the mouth of orman (the spring of a river that is never touched by sunlight - a mirror is needed!) When a blind follows the brigh shine of fire (pay a blind person to walk towards the heat?)
You can keep the solutions creative and reward if your players get clever. Your knight NPC is a judge. I feel like many people forget that a riddle doesn't need to be a whole set of sudoku or something, but maybe also something more philosophical :)
Nothing wrong with a good old riddle though. Maybe even combine it with the fight (to make fights interesting again), maybe each time during the fight they want to move a piece they need to use their full action. Till the riddle is finished each round new enemies pop up.
I would also recommend you to look into things like the corruption rules by Matthew Mercer (free for download), which can make the environment feel dangerous, it fiddles with your players.
I am generally also a big fan of detective stories, though magic always makes these things dangerous regarding having the solution to close by.
You could also go with the magic chess of harry potter. Tell your players the only way to pass is if they win this game. Maybe they are not allowed to communicate with one another - or only on their turn (maybe they all are stuck in the pieces?). Though be warned that not everyone likes chess.. ;)
I agree though that flair and reason should always be included. I am always weirded out by weird tests. If you really want no one to enter your tomb, why the hell is the way to access it to be clever?!
Say for instance a puzzle where they must choose between a door with a serpent, lion or dragon symbol on them. The solution is that the door which "holds the creature that is most dangerous without resorting to trickery" is the safe one the lines are blurry. Serpent is probably right out, but dragon or lion both are not really "trickery"-ish. So they would start discussing how which makes sense and which doesn't. In my mind it's clear, since the Lion does not have poison attacks or fire breath and uses his own wits, power and bravery that makes sense to me. But it might not to my group since it´s not a fixed logic but rather an interpretation.
I very much agree with what the good RAJdeBoer wrote here (and also overall, but especially this part :) ) - don't necessary think about what is truly right, but what the culture or individual who set this up considered to be right. "What is the superior being?" Wizard? Cleric? Fighter? - there is no true answer, but a insane cleric or wizard would probably both be sure of the answer - and they don't agree I am sure..
I also love bringing in talents the heroes usually ignore. Maybe it's time that the lady dwarf who is proficent in brewery tools get's to finally make use of it! If the player never used it, but now you bring it up - they'll usually love it.
In the end, nothing of this truly matters, just take out of it what you think makes you and your players happy! :)
Hey everyone,
I'm reasonably far into a campaign I'm running for some friends, they're new players but have taken to the game really well. However, they've become very used to encounters being simply combat. I think the time has come to throw them with some puzzles, trap rooms, magical logic problems. I've got a few ideas cooking already, but was wondering if anyone else had any cool suggestions for dungeon based puzzles that they know have worked in the past. Cheers.
I just made a symbol based sudoku puzzle: since my players are not that into puzzling I simply took a sudoku but changed the numbers into symbols. A single line of the grid is coloured slightly differently and the symbols that are at the bottom of the grid. They need to tap those symbols from left to right on that differently coloured line.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Personally, I would ask the group as a whole if puzzles and the like interested them as a whole. If only one or two said they might enjoy them, I would not introduce them. I know it might sound heretical, but in my experience, if the group is not engaged in a task then the task should probably not be there. Looking at it another way, if no player is interested in overland travel and such, building a third of your game around it makes no sense.
This is true. The complexity comes when some are interested and others are not. The key, to me, is to engage those that are interested long enough that they're satisfied, while not making it too long so that those that are not engaged get bored. It's difficult but very satisfying :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Straight up puzzles and riddles I find one of the worst things in DND. Or any RPG for that matter. There is no way to justify their inclusion. It quickly becomes player smarts instead of character smarts as well.
That said. There are some puzzles that are fun to do. Basically "traps" that require them to explore the room/area while under some form of pressure/threat. And they need to figure out how to stop this trap or find a way out of the area. These often also require more team work and I find that players are much more engaged in these cases. It also allows each character to truly contribute in their own way.
I take your points about player interest. I should have perhaps mentioned, I am doing this because the players have expressed that they want more than just combat. Some of my players find combat to be frustrating at times, and would prefer a more intellect based challenge. I am trying to cater for everyone.
I really depends on what kind of puzzle if it fits or not. For instance, the aforementioned sudoku symbol puzzle is used as an entrance to a secret hideout; if they make allies within they will get the code itself or hints depending on how well liked they are at that time. I've also had a similar puzzle like the tree puzzle in Black & White (old game now, still great) which opened a secret door. Or another door which they had to open with a puzzle similar to the frog game (https://primefactorisation.com/frogpuzzle/). They're simple and solvable, but not game breakingly slow. I find puzzles to make for great moments if they're:
A) suspenseful
B) meaningful
C) solvable
A) meaning that there must be some urgency to it. Not necessarily that the room is flooding and the puzzle is the way to open the door, but sometimes simply "the solution to our quest is on the other side of this door". Something must be gained when solving the puzzle or something must be lost if it isn't solved.
B) meaning that there must be a reason why the puzzle is there. The more intricate the puzzle, the more important the location/item is that it is protecting. You would put 6 locks on your front door, but not on the cabinet underneath the kitchen sink. However, that little safe which holds your important papers is not only locked itself with a number code, it's also hidden in a wardrobe, in your bedroom, up the stairs behind said six lock. Likewise, you would craft devious traps and puzzles to something that you do not need to access every day because it's a hassle. You don't want to spend 30 minutes to get a sandwich from the fridge.
C) is more based on the group. In my group there are two people that are great with numbers, so any sort of logic puzzle works great for them. Symbolism, however, is a bit trickier for them. The farther away I stray from logic puzzles and more into interpretive things, the more difficult they find it.
Say for instance a puzzle where they must choose between a door with a serpent, lion or dragon symbol on them. The solution is that the door which "holds the creature that is most dangerous without resorting to trickery" is the safe one the lines are blurry. Serpent is probably right out, but dragon or lion both are not really "trickery"-ish. So they would start discussing how which makes sense and which doesn't. In my mind it's clear, since the Lion does not have poison attacks or fire breath and uses his own wits, power and bravery that makes sense to me. But it might not to my group since it´s not a fixed logic but rather an interpretation.
Also note that combat encounters can include puzzles on their own. There are various video games which have done this numerous times. Think of near impenetrable defenses with glaring red "hit me" weak spots or enemies that must be killed in a certain order or using the environment. Heck, even in certain movies enemies have weak spots that can be discovered (Smaug, anyone?) which is sort of a puzzle. Remember that it's always possible to steal something which you can adapt to your own story.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I'm a big fan of RP-appropriate puzzles. I feel like they get the party talking among themselves and they leave players with a feeling of accomplishment other than just killing monsters. Another thing I've started doing since my party is pretty crafty is that I'll just design a problem and let them figure out how they are going to solve it. It could be that there is no solution, although they haven't found a nut yet that they can't crack. It's a lot less work on my part, and as long as I'm willing to hear them out and let them eventually solve the problem, it gives them a chance to flex their creativity. Just be sure to go in with the intention of the problem being solved and also have a backup plan for what happens if the problem can't be solved.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I recommend looking at The Tomb of Nine Gods in Tomb of Annihilation. In my opinion some of those were the best traps/puzzles designed for 5e and running that adventure has changed how I think about 5e traps and puzzles.
The main thing I liked was that some of the puzzles in The Tomb of the Nine Gods released huge numbers of deadly foes if they were interacted with incorrectly, or trapped the characters with foes that had a huge advantage in the environment the characters were trapped in. This did two things. First, if characters failed the puzzle, they were "penalized" by having to fight a big, very challenging combat. To many players that's not a penalty at all -- that's what they enjoy most! If characters solve the puzzle, not only do they save time by avoiding that massive combat, they gain *all* that combat experience without any further risk and danger. So the puzzle goes from a potentially frustrating roadblock to something that is enjoyable and memorable whether or not it gets solved. In my opinion the combats that result from failed puzzles should lean on the "Deadly" side of challenge. The ideal failed puzzle combat will have a decent chance of killing one party member, but not much of a chance of a TPK, and make the party really want to take a long rest afterwards because they've used so many resources. That will motivate the players to actually want to solve the puzzle.
The other thing I love about puzzles (and I consider traps a type of puzzle) is that they encourage players to interact with the imaginary world in ways that are impossible in a video game. Pushing things, prodding things, asking questions of NPC's, using spells in ways they're not necessarily intended, and generally using their big brains in ways that the designer (you) didn't anticipate can only be adjudicated by a living, breathing DM, not by a pre-programmed computer.
Hi there!
I agree with your players, having fights being the only challenge can be quite exhausting and straight up boring.
I am a DM myself and here are a few examples how I personally tackle this problem.
We recently played an adventure (based on an Adventure from the PnP "Das Schwarze Auge") were our heroes had to convience someone to give them a prestigious item he just won in a tournement. The asked gentleman was a bit of a, excuse my language, ******bag. The NPC therefor tried to make fun of our dear heroes and asked them to get "Nimue a husband".
Half the bar they were in started laughing. The heroes did not understand.
It turns out that Nimue is a mystic figure of a song and only who solves all her challenges - that are considered impossible - are fullfilled.
A honorable knight askes now for the word on this and represents himself as judge of the heroes fullfilling the great song and its challenges.
The song talked about the following things:
When a rider rides the sixlegged steed (ride a six legged beast!)
When an unborn child waves from kings castle (c-section! :) )
When seven brave companions are standing on finger (a nearby mountain or maybe balance 9 figurines on a finger?)
When Trees dance at old fathers stone (you'll need to convince a druid to make the trees dance or summon some ents)
When sunlight shines on the mouth of orman (the spring of a river that is never touched by sunlight - a mirror is needed!)
When a blind follows the brigh shine of fire (pay a blind person to walk towards the heat?)
You can keep the solutions creative and reward if your players get clever. Your knight NPC is a judge.
I feel like many people forget that a riddle doesn't need to be a whole set of sudoku or something, but maybe also something more philosophical :)
Nothing wrong with a good old riddle though.
Maybe even combine it with the fight (to make fights interesting again), maybe each time during the fight they want to move a piece they need to use their full action. Till the riddle is finished each round new enemies pop up.
I would also recommend you to look into things like the corruption rules by Matthew Mercer (free for download), which can make the environment feel dangerous, it fiddles with your players.
I am generally also a big fan of detective stories, though magic always makes these things dangerous regarding having the solution to close by.
You could also go with the magic chess of harry potter. Tell your players the only way to pass is if they win this game. Maybe they are not allowed to communicate with one another - or only on their turn (maybe they all are stuck in the pieces?). Though be warned that not everyone likes chess.. ;)
I agree though that flair and reason should always be included. I am always weirded out by weird tests. If you really want no one to enter your tomb, why the hell is the way to access it to be clever?!
I very much agree with what the good RAJdeBoer wrote here (and also overall, but especially this part :) ) - don't necessary think about what is truly right, but what the culture or individual who set this up considered to be right. "What is the superior being?" Wizard? Cleric? Fighter? - there is no true answer, but a insane cleric or wizard would probably both be sure of the answer - and they don't agree I am sure..
I also love bringing in talents the heroes usually ignore. Maybe it's time that the lady dwarf who is proficent in brewery tools get's to finally make use of it! If the player never used it, but now you bring it up - they'll usually love it.
In the end, nothing of this truly matters, just take out of it what you think makes you and your players happy! :)
Wow! Thanks very much, there was a lot of useful stuff in there. Thanks everyone as well!
Let us know how it goes!