Hello fellow DM's, i guess i just needed to spit this out, but i will try to turn my anger into something usefull for the community.
As a DM, i have some issues when i have to be a player. The biggest problem i'm facing nowadays is fighting the urge to confront my DM about the unfair use he makes of the game basic rules.
This is it; even if we try to solve a situation using a spell wisely or something else, there is allways a UNKNOWN BARRIER OF UNREACHABLE KNOWDLEGE that prevent us from doing so and, i guess, ruining the only way my narrator knows to put us in a hard situation. Examples? Well, a shield guard has been put to be the guardian of one of us, in the bad way: basically he's taking care of one of the characters because he confronted the big "bad" guy. Well, that shield golem happens to have more INT than the rest of us, i mean...it has like int 17. Ok, i can go with that! maybe is a weird golem!, well, now, i cannot communicate with my mate using a third level spell called Sending, because some magic we cannot descipher is preventing me to communicate with him using magic...Well then! i will try to talk to my other companions to get rid of this shit of a golem!...and then the DM says that the golem is not there to **** us up and that the wizard owning it may get suspicious if it is destroyed... --..--
This is just an example that goes on and on, magic is commonly not the solution for our problems even if it IS INDEED a solution to our problems. So, fellow DM's around the globe, i beg you please, PLEASE! Nerfing good ideas just because they involve magic or common resources to solve the problems easily does not mean that your party will not have a hard time or that you will not be able to put them into a challenge. Of course, if you nerf everything a player can do and you only let them go with non magical or normal resources the challenge will be harder...and you may also want to try a game where magic does not exist.
I feel terrible!, i feel like my ideas are not counting or do not matter!, because the best resource i've to use can only be used to heal, getting rid of curses and so on, so i'm just stopping to use magic for other purposses, THIS IS WHAT NERFING PROVOQUES. I've never felt it as a player untill now and it sucks, is a poor technicke based, probably, in our own incapacity to think in original and different ways to put challenges into the table, and i think we all can learn something about this; if we are forcing our players to use the rules as they are writen, we should not change the game so we can get rid of their resourses but they cannot face our challenges in any way but the one we want.
Open your minds guys!, sometimes our players outplay the bad guys and can solve hard situations easily with original ideas! and i dont think that's a bad thing really, but preventing them to do so may cause your group stick to the hit and go strategy. Or even worse, they will think that no matter what they do, things will allways go as the narrator want, and that sucks. Trust me, i'm living it.
Peace!
Also this thread is not meant to hurt anyone feelings. I apologice if someone feels offended or something similar, but i thought that, as narrators, could be good to see what kind of feelings we can provote in our players when we change the rules just to disturb them.
Letting your players find creative loopholes to a problem makes for the best sessions. I just (tonight) had a session DMing HotDQ where my players (who I let trade armor and weapons they had salvaged for rope and grapling hooks at the keep) avoided a whole encounter by sneakily scaling a building, failing to fire a rope arrow off it, another party member stealthily retrieving the rope and tieing it to a tree, then a third party member climbed the rope over the heads of some enemies to the roof and carved a hole in it with an axe, went down into the building, rescued the 20 villagers inside by ziplining down the rope, and set a burning barricade by the front door before it could be broken down.
They totally defeated the book's predicted series of events and got everyone to safety without spilling any blood. They loved it, I loved it. I gave them bonus exp for it.
So is the DM just saying nothing works or does he have a reason? Sometimes my players get frustrated by things not working, then they do homework, investigate, and find a perfectly tangible reason that I am not obligated to spell out for them just so they feel better about the situtation.
Is this a case of the DM being unfair or are you just surly you can't figure out what is going on? Two entirely different scenarios.
Just asking.
I can think of several reasons your magic wouldn't be working right that you would need to figure out instead of being spoon fed an explanation. If you get me.
Another thing to consider is if your DM is new-ish or back in the saddle after a long hiatus. Sometimes, all of us have a hard dealing with things we didn't expect our players to do. Especially for new DMs. Try to sit back a little and enjoy the train ride =)
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I'm going to guess that your DM is fairly new or rusty, otherwise he's just a DM vs Player type and should be taught that he's mistaken.
I am typically the forever DM, so when I heard my wife say she wanted to DM I jumped all over it. I gave her a few pointers, I told her to feel free to ask me anything, and I handed her LMoP. It was a good time, I had fun stretching those atrophied RP muscles, and she was excited to play her new adventure she purchased because it looked fun...Curse of Strahd. This module isn't written well for a new, 1 starter adventure new, DM. She made mistakes that sent me off the deep end because her reasoning behind what happened made absolutely no sense to me. I, unfortunately, completely threw off the night once because I triggered a trap, that I looked for, after rolling a 26. I could not fathom how that could happen, in her defense all she could say was "but you didn't say you looked in that spot".
As a forever DM we tend to take things for granted, we abbreviate things, we anticipate 15 steps ahead of players, and we have shortcuts that we've molded to fit our style. When other DMs do things that don't make sense, the first question to ask is: Am I upset because they made a mistake or, am I upset because that's not how I'd do it? If it's because they made a mistake, let the anger go, and after the session talk it over with them and explain where you feel they made a mistake. Most times they don't even know they've made an error and your input can help them grow and deal with the situation better in the future. If it's because you wouldn't handle the situation the way they did, let it go. Every DM is different, let them find their stride. The most you can do is ask them "why did you handle that situation the way you did?" and then say "I think I would have done this, and this is why". No where in either case do you say "You did it wrong". You're a guide, a mentor, a tutor, and you are there to grow a new DM, if you attack their style then they'll become afraid of the DM spot.
If, in the worst case, they truly are a DM vs Player type, then it needs to be addressed. Again, it needs to be done with tact, not with finger pointing and anger. Have the table sit down and talk it over, see if anyone else feels that there is a problem. An open discourse will help immensely, both in venting your frustration and getting everyone on the same page. Then take the time to explain what the role of DM is and how it can be mistaken as a competition between DM and Player. Then strive toward making it a co-op game again, letting the anger and frustration go.
I hope you can resolve this easily, and I hope you get to enjoy your time as a player.
The entire point of DnD, in my opinion, is to have fun finding creative solutions to challenging problems. If your players are finding simple solutions using common spells to your problems and you're tired of watching your PC's effortlessly solve your puzzles and problems. Simply make them more difficult. Saying no to players is something that should almost never be done. The best way to DM is to simply react to player choices and decisions. If the players are being idiots make them pay, if the players are using spells to solve every problem; make the problems more complex by adding uncertain circumstances or types of puzzles that simply cannot easily be solved by magic. If the players are being too nice, have someone take advantage of them to make them second guess themselves. Too evil, send a party of powerful lawmen against them. What I am trying to say is that there are solutions for every player created problem that the DM can fix without just saying, "No you can't do that or no you shouldn't do that". Show them why they can't or should not have done something.
MAKE THEM PAY WITH THEIR TEARS.NOT BY BEING THE FUN POLICE.
Than you all so much for the feedback guys, i guess i will do as Wysperra said, i will enjoy the train trip.
There are plenty of good points of view here. DMthacO made a very good question: is this disturbing me because i would not do this in the same way? I guess the answer is no, because what's disturbing me is the fact that my DM is changing the rules only to nerf us or putting us in a hard disadvantage, but he's not changing the rules so we can discover how things work or why are we failing in our efforts.
Is basically a "you are failing and it's impossible to know why" situation. Wich i translate in "I dont want to give an explanation to this, i just want you, a player, to stop doing this because the evil foe didnt think of this and i'm not ready to make him fall this easily". Or something else that we can apply to different situations.
Thanks to everybody, i will try to give him an opportunity and i will roleplay my frustration, i guess i can translate it into a character urge to know what the hell is going on. I hope i dont find myself hitting my head into a wall everytime i want to discover about this weird situations we are facing.
Thanks guys!!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Hello fellow DM's, i guess i just needed to spit this out, but i will try to turn my anger into something usefull for the community.
As a DM, i have some issues when i have to be a player. The biggest problem i'm facing nowadays is fighting the urge to confront my DM about the unfair use he makes of the game basic rules.
This is it; even if we try to solve a situation using a spell wisely or something else, there is allways a UNKNOWN BARRIER OF UNREACHABLE KNOWDLEGE that prevent us from doing so and, i guess, ruining the only way my narrator knows to put us in a hard situation. Examples? Well, a shield guard has been put to be the guardian of one of us, in the bad way: basically he's taking care of one of the characters because he confronted the big "bad" guy. Well, that shield golem happens to have more INT than the rest of us, i mean...it has like int 17. Ok, i can go with that! maybe is a weird golem!, well, now, i cannot communicate with my mate using a third level spell called Sending, because some magic we cannot descipher is preventing me to communicate with him using magic...Well then! i will try to talk to my other companions to get rid of this shit of a golem!...and then the DM says that the golem is not there to **** us up and that the wizard owning it may get suspicious if it is destroyed... --..--
This is just an example that goes on and on, magic is commonly not the solution for our problems even if it IS INDEED a solution to our problems. So, fellow DM's around the globe, i beg you please, PLEASE! Nerfing good ideas just because they involve magic or common resources to solve the problems easily does not mean that your party will not have a hard time or that you will not be able to put them into a challenge. Of course, if you nerf everything a player can do and you only let them go with non magical or normal resources the challenge will be harder...and you may also want to try a game where magic does not exist.
I feel terrible!, i feel like my ideas are not counting or do not matter!, because the best resource i've to use can only be used to heal, getting rid of curses and so on, so i'm just stopping to use magic for other purposses, THIS IS WHAT NERFING PROVOQUES. I've never felt it as a player untill now and it sucks, is a poor technicke based, probably, in our own incapacity to think in original and different ways to put challenges into the table, and i think we all can learn something about this; if we are forcing our players to use the rules as they are writen, we should not change the game so we can get rid of their resourses but they cannot face our challenges in any way but the one we want.
Open your minds guys!, sometimes our players outplay the bad guys and can solve hard situations easily with original ideas! and i dont think that's a bad thing really, but preventing them to do so may cause your group stick to the hit and go strategy. Or even worse, they will think that no matter what they do, things will allways go as the narrator want, and that sucks. Trust me, i'm living it.
Peace!
Also this thread is not meant to hurt anyone feelings. I apologice if someone feels offended or something similar, but i thought that, as narrators, could be good to see what kind of feelings we can provote in our players when we change the rules just to disturb them.
Letting your players find creative loopholes to a problem makes for the best sessions. I just (tonight) had a session DMing HotDQ where my players (who I let trade armor and weapons they had salvaged for rope and grapling hooks at the keep) avoided a whole encounter by sneakily scaling a building, failing to fire a rope arrow off it, another party member stealthily retrieving the rope and tieing it to a tree, then a third party member climbed the rope over the heads of some enemies to the roof and carved a hole in it with an axe, went down into the building, rescued the 20 villagers inside by ziplining down the rope, and set a burning barricade by the front door before it could be broken down.
They totally defeated the book's predicted series of events and got everyone to safety without spilling any blood. They loved it, I loved it. I gave them bonus exp for it.
So is the DM just saying nothing works or does he have a reason? Sometimes my players get frustrated by things not working, then they do homework, investigate, and find a perfectly tangible reason that I am not obligated to spell out for them just so they feel better about the situtation.
Is this a case of the DM being unfair or are you just surly you can't figure out what is going on? Two entirely different scenarios.
Just asking.
I can think of several reasons your magic wouldn't be working right that you would need to figure out instead of being spoon fed an explanation. If you get me.
Another thing to consider is if your DM is new-ish or back in the saddle after a long hiatus. Sometimes, all of us have a hard dealing with things we didn't expect our players to do. Especially for new DMs. Try to sit back a little and enjoy the train ride =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I'm going to guess that your DM is fairly new or rusty, otherwise he's just a DM vs Player type and should be taught that he's mistaken.
I am typically the forever DM, so when I heard my wife say she wanted to DM I jumped all over it. I gave her a few pointers, I told her to feel free to ask me anything, and I handed her LMoP. It was a good time, I had fun stretching those atrophied RP muscles, and she was excited to play her new adventure she purchased because it looked fun...Curse of Strahd. This module isn't written well for a new, 1 starter adventure new, DM. She made mistakes that sent me off the deep end because her reasoning behind what happened made absolutely no sense to me. I, unfortunately, completely threw off the night once because I triggered a trap, that I looked for, after rolling a 26. I could not fathom how that could happen, in her defense all she could say was "but you didn't say you looked in that spot".
As a forever DM we tend to take things for granted, we abbreviate things, we anticipate 15 steps ahead of players, and we have shortcuts that we've molded to fit our style. When other DMs do things that don't make sense, the first question to ask is: Am I upset because they made a mistake or, am I upset because that's not how I'd do it? If it's because they made a mistake, let the anger go, and after the session talk it over with them and explain where you feel they made a mistake. Most times they don't even know they've made an error and your input can help them grow and deal with the situation better in the future. If it's because you wouldn't handle the situation the way they did, let it go. Every DM is different, let them find their stride. The most you can do is ask them "why did you handle that situation the way you did?" and then say "I think I would have done this, and this is why". No where in either case do you say "You did it wrong". You're a guide, a mentor, a tutor, and you are there to grow a new DM, if you attack their style then they'll become afraid of the DM spot.
If, in the worst case, they truly are a DM vs Player type, then it needs to be addressed. Again, it needs to be done with tact, not with finger pointing and anger. Have the table sit down and talk it over, see if anyone else feels that there is a problem. An open discourse will help immensely, both in venting your frustration and getting everyone on the same page. Then take the time to explain what the role of DM is and how it can be mistaken as a competition between DM and Player. Then strive toward making it a co-op game again, letting the anger and frustration go.
I hope you can resolve this easily, and I hope you get to enjoy your time as a player.
The entire point of DnD, in my opinion, is to have fun finding creative solutions to challenging problems. If your players are finding simple solutions using common spells to your problems and you're tired of watching your PC's effortlessly solve your puzzles and problems. Simply make them more difficult. Saying no to players is something that should almost never be done. The best way to DM is to simply react to player choices and decisions. If the players are being idiots make them pay, if the players are using spells to solve every problem; make the problems more complex by adding uncertain circumstances or types of puzzles that simply cannot easily be solved by magic. If the players are being too nice, have someone take advantage of them to make them second guess themselves. Too evil, send a party of powerful lawmen against them. What I am trying to say is that there are solutions for every player created problem that the DM can fix without just saying, "No you can't do that or no you shouldn't do that". Show them why they can't or should not have done something.
MAKE THEM PAY WITH THEIR TEARS.NOT BY BEING THE FUN POLICE.
Than you all so much for the feedback guys, i guess i will do as Wysperra said, i will enjoy the train trip.
There are plenty of good points of view here. DMthacO made a very good question: is this disturbing me because i would not do this in the same way? I guess the answer is no, because what's disturbing me is the fact that my DM is changing the rules only to nerf us or putting us in a hard disadvantage, but he's not changing the rules so we can discover how things work or why are we failing in our efforts.
Is basically a "you are failing and it's impossible to know why" situation. Wich i translate in "I dont want to give an explanation to this, i just want you, a player, to stop doing this because the evil foe didnt think of this and i'm not ready to make him fall this easily". Or something else that we can apply to different situations.
Thanks to everybody, i will try to give him an opportunity and i will roleplay my frustration, i guess i can translate it into a character urge to know what the hell is going on. I hope i dont find myself hitting my head into a wall everytime i want to discover about this weird situations we are facing.
Thanks guys!!!