My campaign has a warlock that loves that spell too. When I can't justify that an enemy would just run out of the radius, I have them do a survival roll (dc depending on cleverness of the enemy). If they succeed, then they're able to go the right way to get out. If they fail, I roll a d4 and they travel in whatever direction (N,E,S,W) it rolls.
Just remember that while trying to be fair as a DM, don't overcompensate and hobble yourself. Think things through from both sides.
Hmmm, it is only reading the description of the Darkness spell (which lacks the qualifier of creatures inside the area being blinded) that convinces me there is reasonable grounds for considering them as meaningfully different effects. Since Hunger of Hadar uses both dark and black to describe the lack of vision and "an unlit dungeon" which would be every bit as black as "the dark between the stars" is given as an example of darkness, just reading the directly relevant parts seems to leave RAI a little ambiguous. But the additional specificity of creatures inside being blinded not being included in the description for Darkness has won me over.
Can always house rule it though, ultimately as long as a spell is treated consistently within a campaign and nothing is too out of balance then DM fiat rules. :P
It's the specificity that started to win me over too when the argument was presented to me. I, a DM at the time, treated the spell like magical darkness and was willing to keep going that route. My player hit me with two points that made me really ponder the validity of his argument.
First was the specificity of "They are blinded". It seemed to him to be an important qualifier and as I read into it, I slowly conceded that it was interesting.
The second point was that Darkness has a direct counter in that a Light spell can negate it. Hunger of Hadar states that no light, magical or otherwise, can penetrate it. This, and the previous point, were strong proponents in favor of the argument.
Though it did bite him in the tail in the end as well: Devil's Sight didn't work for him were he to be inside Hunger of Hadar himself.
The second point was that Darkness has a direct counter in that a Light spell can negate it. Hunger of Hadar states that no light, magical or otherwise, can penetrate it. This, and the previous point, were strong proponents in favor of the argument.
Light can not counter the Darkness spell. Only magical light created by a spell of 3rd level or higher can dispel Darkness, and since Light is a cantrip it cannot be cast at higher levels.
Hunger of Hadar shouldn't be that hard to counter, however. Start having enemies with Counterspell or Dispel Magic and you can prevent/get rid of it with ease.
As for the enemies within not knowing what direction to go, per RAW, unless a creature takes the hide action everyone who reasonably could (within a realistic distance) know where they are, knows where they are - whether they can see them or not. RAW you could be totally blind and deaf but still would know where enemies/npcs/players are unless they take the hide action (which if you were blind and deaf, they could do while standing right next to you and likely succeed with ease.)
So even if your enemies are within Hunger of Hadar's AoE, they know where the players are and can simply move towards them unless your players also hide, in which case they still know the location of the last place they were before hiding.
Aside from the aforementioned Dispel Magic, Counterspell there is also Antimagic field.
While an 8th level spell, the concept/notion of Antimagic Field is worth exploring: natural pockets of "antimagic"/dead-magical-space could bring reprieve some of the AoE magical darkness. Enemies could have wands or scrolls of antimagic Field if you wanted single/limited use of the spell.
The spell is described as creating an area of magical darkness, and the section on light levels says that a creature in darkness is essentially suffering from the blinded condition. So I would rule that the blinded reference in Hunger of Hadar comes from the magical darkness. Meaning truesight, which specifically states the creature can see through magical darkness would allow vision into, out of, or through the area of effect. And that blinding a creature with truesight would require a physical object blocking their vision, or flat out destroying their eyes (or other relevant organ).
The spell says: "a gateway to the dark between the stars", "A 20-foot-radius sphere of blackness and bitter cold appears...", and " No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded." This is not the same as magical darkness, it is blackness and gives the Blinded condition.
Truesight does not work in this area as it is not a darkness spell, it is simply an absence of light.
Truesight would probably let you see THROUGH this spell, but not out from inside of it since you are blinded. Blinded creatures can't see at all, only blindsight or tremorsense would allow them to "see" still.
Creatures or traps with Antimagic as featured in Antimagic FIeld spell.
Small spaces where the use of it would get the players too.
Making sure creatures act like they have an Int Score of 1 or more and just move out of the effect to where they last saw light. One dash and they're out. Being blinded doesn't mean you're paralysed or suddenly lose all memory: you still have an idea where objects were and where players were and the door. And you can still still hear the other creatures: it blinds, it does not deafen. They just head towards where the player was that did the casting if they had even an ounce of intelligence.
I generally never bother with Hunger of Hadar until later when I or an ally have some means to force the enemies to stay within it because otherwise it's too easily countered/escaped to be worth using a spell slot for. It's a nice spell for creep factor and thematics, but tactfully demanding in use. It has uses, of course, and totes worthy if a proper spellcaster but as a warlock with so few spell slots and with far better options it's not worth it. Of course, your players are getting a lot of use: but that's only because you, for reasons I do not understand, turn the enemies into feebleminded vegetables when its used who would just stand there and be slowly digested. Even near-mindless animals have the instinct to move away from painful things even if they cannot see. Seriously, which makes sense: "I'm in a dark area where I'm being frozen and melted, I'll just stand here and die" or "I'm in a dark area where I'm being frozen and melted - I need to get out so I'm going to rush to where I saw the exit and keep going until I'm out, I might trip or hit a wall for tiny bit of pain but it's better than staying here and guaranteeing death."
So, best advice is really stop turning the enemies into suicidal brainless idiots when the spell is used and this spell will stop being much of a concern.
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I know it's the literal definition of darkness, hence why I said darkness spell and magical darkness.
These specific terms were used because there was a parallel being drawn between the spell Darkness and Hunger of Hadar, which there isn't.
The kicker is that Hunger of Hadar specifically states that creatures in the AoE are Blinded and that no light can penetrate the area. With those two things in place, it cannot be equated to the spell Darkness, you cannot use a spell that creates light, such as Sunbeam, to make the area illuminated, nor can you see, such as with Truesight.
There's an obvious parallel between Darkness and Hunger of Hadar, because they both create an area of darkness... it really seems like pretty weird hair-splitting to claim that "An area where there is no light" is different than "darkness".
Hunger of Hadar absolutely creates magical darkness, because it is a magic spell and it creates an area of darkness. It may have slightly different mechanics than the Darkness spell, of course, there's lots of ways to create magical darkness.
Screw it. Have some fun! If the party is dependent on it then.. well.
Have a scribe that has predicted their coming. Or a mind reader that saw them on the way. Each can them put up runes to dispel all magic in the area. Indoors on the walls or outdoors in the trees. Players would have to destroy them so magic is allowed again. Could even be a group of mobs that don't use magic so their magic user put them up.
There's an obvious parallel between Darkness and Hunger of Hadar, because they both create an area of darkness... it really seems like pretty weird hair-splitting to claim that "An area where there is no light" is different than "darkness".
Hunger of Hadar absolutely creates magical darkness, because it is a magic spell and it creates an area of darkness. It may have slightly different mechanics than the Darkness spell, of course, there's lots of ways to create magical darkness.
Truesight would probably let you see THROUGH this spell, but not out from inside of it since you are blinded. Blinded creatures can't see at all, only blindsight or tremorsense would allow them to "see" still.
Hmmm, it is only reading the description of the Darkness spell (which lacks the qualifier of creatures inside the area being blinded) that convinces me there is reasonable grounds for considering them as meaningfully different effects. Since Hunger of Hadar uses both dark and black to describe the lack of vision and "an unlit dungeon" which would be every bit as black as "the dark between the stars" is given as an example of darkness, just reading the directly relevant parts seems to leave RAI a little ambiguous. But the additional specificity of creatures inside being blinded not being included in the description for Darkness has won me over.
Can always house rule it though, ultimately as long as a spell is treated consistently within a campaign and nothing is too out of balance then DM fiat rules. :P
Sage advice specifically explains hunger of hadar is not magical darkness, it is a void that no sight sees through. If you are a creature which relies on your eyes to see things, regardless of type of eye sight (normal, dark vision, true sight, devil's sight, etc), you cannot see in it and you are blinded in rough terrain, taking damage. All the other obvious ways of getting out are fine.
All of the previous advice is good, but I might also add the note that not all encounters are necessarily against monsters. If you turn the tables on them by applying some well made traps or NPCs (maybe some that use the aforementioned spell, to give them a taste of their own medicine), then you can create a challenge that would be more difficult to circumvent.
another consideration is the terrain if you are effectively blinded you can't step over objects/debris without tripping (acrobatics check) . In situations like this I allow them to walk at half speed without an acrobatics check. Anyone who has played hide and seek blindfolded will know that your sense of direction can become easily distorted without your sense of sight so thats a concern as well. If its a straight line without obstacles thats easy enough but throw a 90 degree turn or some debris and it may prove more difficult to deal with then just walking out of the aoe. Also note that the monsters will not know where the effect begins and ends so having them walk out using the shortest path would be unfair to the player. The monster's sense of hearing would also be at a disadvantage considering the spell "This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away."
It comes down to how much simulation you want in your game. The blinded condition does not discuss the more subtle aspects of the condition in particular movement but that doesn't mean there should be no consequences for moving recklessly while blinded.
another consideration is the terrain if you are effectively blinded you can't step over objects/debris without tripping (acrobatics check) . In situations like this I allow them to walk at half speed without an acrobatics check. Anyone who has played hide and seek blindfolded will know that your sense of direction can become easily distorted without your sense of sight so thats a concern as well. If its a straight line without obstacles thats easy enough but throw a 90 degree turn or some debris and it may prove more difficult to deal with then just walking out of the aoe. Also note that the monsters will not know where the effect begins and ends so having them walk out using the shortest path would be unfair to the player. The monster's sense of hearing would also be at a disadvantage considering the spell "This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away."
It comes down to how much simulation you want in your game. The blinded condition does not discuss the more subtle aspects of the condition in particular movement but that doesn't mean there should be no consequences for moving recklessly while blinded.
But their sense of smell remains unfazed.
ex: Loxodons would be largely uneffected by the loss of sensory sight and hearing due to their keen smell
another consideration is the terrain if you are effectively blinded you can't step over objects/debris without tripping (acrobatics check) . In situations like this I allow them to walk at half speed without an acrobatics check. Anyone who has played hide and seek blindfolded will know that your sense of direction can become easily distorted without your sense of sight so thats a concern as well. If its a straight line without obstacles thats easy enough but throw a 90 degree turn or some debris and it may prove more difficult to deal with then just walking out of the aoe. Also note that the monsters will not know where the effect begins and ends so having them walk out using the shortest path would be unfair to the player. The monster's sense of hearing would also be at a disadvantage considering the spell "This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away."
It comes down to how much simulation you want in your game. The blinded condition does not discuss the more subtle aspects of the condition in particular movement but that doesn't mean there should be no consequences for moving recklessly while blinded.
But their sense of smell remains unfazed.
ex: Loxodons would be largely uneffected by the loss of sensory sight and hearing due to their keen smell
that would only give them the general direction still wouldn't help them when it comes to uneven terrain. It also wouldn't indicate the shortest path out of the spell. I think the biggest thing when adjudicating effects like this is understanding what information the monster would have and having them act appropriately based on that level on knowledge.
As far as how to deal with a PC spamming this every encounter is really simple use it on the pcs. Nothing says you can't use their favorite trick against them. If they have been using this all campaign its not unreasonable for others to have heard of their exploits and prepare against it.
Illusions are great against this sort of tactic and since they will be at relatively long range they would not get a check to recognize an illusion of x monsters seemingly waiting to be ambushed
Teleportation/counterspell/dispel magic
tremorsense like effects work well could also bring an oldie but goodie back "lifesense"
If your confined to smaller rooms like in a dungeon could have secret trapdoors hidden throughout. While the PCs are waiting for the monsters to basic slowly die from the spell's damage they are really retreating/falling back only to attack them from behind.
A gateway would indicate a literal portal in which leads to the far realm. This is a sphere that is blocking the line of sight that something like Truesight would require to be effective. It's like throwing up a big black blanket: no light is able to come through, magical or otherwise, and it is a physical space that Truesight cannot see through.
The whole "Is this OP" argument for most things just kills me. It's only OP if you let it be. There's a number of suggestions here as to how to get out of it, most of which are good suggestions. Also, if it's a case where the PCs are using this "every encounter" against thinking opponents that they face off against regularly, you would think these opponents would clue in on the group's tactics. Usually that "is this OP" argument comes from someone not really thinking about natural reactions to things. It's only OP IF you let it be. So let the PCs use the spell, let it be effective. They did spend one of a very few spell slots that a warlock gets on it. Just don't let it be a game ender. Have NPCs move out of the sphere. If they are from a group that's seen the PCs use this tactic, start having the NPCs have a plan for escaping it once it's put down. Very easy for the NPCs to leave a clear exit free of obstacles. If they've already prepared, then they have a plan. Imagine the reaction of the PCs when the spell ends and the NPCs are 20' outside the 20' radius with readied range weapons. Now the PCs face the problem of having to charge the NPCs through ranged fire. That warlock is now down one spell slot, having done little or no damage. Depending on where they are at that point, have them be harassed by the enemy so they don't get a short rest, and the spell becomes a nuisance rather than a game ender.
My campaign has a warlock that loves that spell too. When I can't justify that an enemy would just run out of the radius, I have them do a survival roll (dc depending on cleverness of the enemy). If they succeed, then they're able to go the right way to get out. If they fail, I roll a d4 and they travel in whatever direction (N,E,S,W) it rolls.
Just remember that while trying to be fair as a DM, don't overcompensate and hobble yourself. Think things through from both sides.
Hmmm, it is only reading the description of the Darkness spell (which lacks the qualifier of creatures inside the area being blinded) that convinces me there is reasonable grounds for considering them as meaningfully different effects. Since Hunger of Hadar uses both dark and black to describe the lack of vision and "an unlit dungeon" which would be every bit as black as "the dark between the stars" is given as an example of darkness, just reading the directly relevant parts seems to leave RAI a little ambiguous. But the additional specificity of creatures inside being blinded not being included in the description for Darkness has won me over.
Can always house rule it though, ultimately as long as a spell is treated consistently within a campaign and nothing is too out of balance then DM fiat rules. :P
It's the specificity that started to win me over too when the argument was presented to me. I, a DM at the time, treated the spell like magical darkness and was willing to keep going that route. My player hit me with two points that made me really ponder the validity of his argument.
First was the specificity of "They are blinded". It seemed to him to be an important qualifier and as I read into it, I slowly conceded that it was interesting.
The second point was that Darkness has a direct counter in that a Light spell can negate it. Hunger of Hadar states that no light, magical or otherwise, can penetrate it. This, and the previous point, were strong proponents in favor of the argument.
Though it did bite him in the tail in the end as well: Devil's Sight didn't work for him were he to be inside Hunger of Hadar himself.
Light can not counter the Darkness spell. Only magical light created by a spell of 3rd level or higher can dispel Darkness, and since Light is a cantrip it cannot be cast at higher levels.
Hunger of Hadar shouldn't be that hard to counter, however. Start having enemies with Counterspell or Dispel Magic and you can prevent/get rid of it with ease.
As for the enemies within not knowing what direction to go, per RAW, unless a creature takes the hide action everyone who reasonably could (within a realistic distance) know where they are, knows where they are - whether they can see them or not. RAW you could be totally blind and deaf but still would know where enemies/npcs/players are unless they take the hide action (which if you were blind and deaf, they could do while standing right next to you and likely succeed with ease.)
So even if your enemies are within Hunger of Hadar's AoE, they know where the players are and can simply move towards them unless your players also hide, in which case they still know the location of the last place they were before hiding.
Aside from the aforementioned Dispel Magic, Counterspell there is also Antimagic field.
While an 8th level spell, the concept/notion of Antimagic Field is worth exploring: natural pockets of "antimagic"/dead-magical-space could bring reprieve some of the AoE magical darkness. Enemies could have wands or scrolls of antimagic Field if you wanted single/limited use of the spell.
... that's the literal definition of darkness.
Truesight would probably let you see THROUGH this spell, but not out from inside of it since you are blinded. Blinded creatures can't see at all, only blindsight or tremorsense would allow them to "see" still.
Creatures with blindsight.
Creatures with tremorsense.
Creatures immune to cold or acid, or maybe both like a Black Pudding.
Creatures with Dimension Door.
Creatures that can ignore difficult terrain or can use Freedom of Movement.
Creatures with high movement where difficult terrain isn't an issue.
Creatures with Counterspell.
Creatures with Dispel Magic.
Creatures or traps with Antimagic as featured in Antimagic FIeld spell.
Small spaces where the use of it would get the players too.
Making sure creatures act like they have an Int Score of 1 or more and just move out of the effect to where they last saw light. One dash and they're out. Being blinded doesn't mean you're paralysed or suddenly lose all memory: you still have an idea where objects were and where players were and the door. And you can still still hear the other creatures: it blinds, it does not deafen. They just head towards where the player was that did the casting if they had even an ounce of intelligence.
I generally never bother with Hunger of Hadar until later when I or an ally have some means to force the enemies to stay within it because otherwise it's too easily countered/escaped to be worth using a spell slot for. It's a nice spell for creep factor and thematics, but tactfully demanding in use. It has uses, of course, and totes worthy if a proper spellcaster but as a warlock with so few spell slots and with far better options it's not worth it. Of course, your players are getting a lot of use: but that's only because you, for reasons I do not understand, turn the enemies into feebleminded vegetables when its used who would just stand there and be slowly digested. Even near-mindless animals have the instinct to move away from painful things even if they cannot see. Seriously, which makes sense: "I'm in a dark area where I'm being frozen and melted, I'll just stand here and die" or "I'm in a dark area where I'm being frozen and melted - I need to get out so I'm going to rush to where I saw the exit and keep going until I'm out, I might trip or hit a wall for tiny bit of pain but it's better than staying here and guaranteeing death."
So, best advice is really stop turning the enemies into suicidal brainless idiots when the spell is used and this spell will stop being much of a concern.
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Cybermind has the basics of it. Just don't penalize the opposition more than they're supposed to be.
I know it's the literal definition of darkness, hence why I said darkness spell and magical darkness.
These specific terms were used because there was a parallel being drawn between the spell Darkness and Hunger of Hadar, which there isn't.
The kicker is that Hunger of Hadar specifically states that creatures in the AoE are Blinded and that no light can penetrate the area. With those two things in place, it cannot be equated to the spell Darkness, you cannot use a spell that creates light, such as Sunbeam, to make the area illuminated, nor can you see, such as with Truesight.
There's an obvious parallel between Darkness and Hunger of Hadar, because they both create an area of darkness... it really seems like pretty weird hair-splitting to claim that "An area where there is no light" is different than "darkness".
Hunger of Hadar absolutely creates magical darkness, because it is a magic spell and it creates an area of darkness. It may have slightly different mechanics than the Darkness spell, of course, there's lots of ways to create magical darkness.
Screw it. Have some fun! If the party is dependent on it then.. well.
Have a scribe that has predicted their coming. Or a mind reader that saw them on the way. Each can them put up runes to dispel all magic in the area. Indoors on the walls or outdoors in the trees. Players would have to destroy them so magic is allowed again. Could even be a group of mobs that don't use magic so their magic user put them up.
Lots of ways to go.
Sage advice specifically explains hunger of hadar is not magical darkness, it is a void that no sight sees through. If you are a creature which relies on your eyes to see things, regardless of type of eye sight (normal, dark vision, true sight, devil's sight, etc), you cannot see in it and you are blinded in rough terrain, taking damage. All the other obvious ways of getting out are fine.
All of the previous advice is good, but I might also add the note that not all encounters are necessarily against monsters. If you turn the tables on them by applying some well made traps or NPCs (maybe some that use the aforementioned spell, to give them a taste of their own medicine), then you can create a challenge that would be more difficult to circumvent.
I is the feels good.
- Kefko, the Traveler
another consideration is the terrain if you are effectively blinded you can't step over objects/debris without tripping (acrobatics check) . In situations like this I allow them to walk at half speed without an acrobatics check. Anyone who has played hide and seek blindfolded will know that your sense of direction can become easily distorted without your sense of sight so thats a concern as well. If its a straight line without obstacles thats easy enough but throw a 90 degree turn or some debris and it may prove more difficult to deal with then just walking out of the aoe. Also note that the monsters will not know where the effect begins and ends so having them walk out using the shortest path would be unfair to the player. The monster's sense of hearing would also be at a disadvantage considering the spell "This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away."
It comes down to how much simulation you want in your game. The blinded condition does not discuss the more subtle aspects of the condition in particular movement but that doesn't mean there should be no consequences for moving recklessly while blinded.
But their sense of smell remains unfazed.
ex: Loxodons would be largely uneffected by the loss of sensory sight and hearing due to their keen smell
Blank
that would only give them the general direction still wouldn't help them when it comes to uneven terrain. It also wouldn't indicate the shortest path out of the spell. I think the biggest thing when adjudicating effects like this is understanding what information the monster would have and having them act appropriately based on that level on knowledge.
As far as how to deal with a PC spamming this every encounter is really simple use it on the pcs. Nothing says you can't use their favorite trick against them. If they have been using this all campaign its not unreasonable for others to have heard of their exploits and prepare against it.
Illusions are great against this sort of tactic and since they will be at relatively long range they would not get a check to recognize an illusion of x monsters seemingly waiting to be ambushed
Teleportation/counterspell/dispel magic
tremorsense like effects work well could also bring an oldie but goodie back "lifesense"
If your confined to smaller rooms like in a dungeon could have secret trapdoors hidden throughout. While the PCs are waiting for the monsters to basic slowly die from the spell's damage they are really retreating/falling back only to attack them from behind.
A gateway would indicate a literal portal in which leads to the far realm. This is a sphere that is blocking the line of sight that something like Truesight would require to be effective. It's like throwing up a big black blanket: no light is able to come through, magical or otherwise, and it is a physical space that Truesight cannot see through.
The whole "Is this OP" argument for most things just kills me. It's only OP if you let it be. There's a number of suggestions here as to how to get out of it, most of which are good suggestions. Also, if it's a case where the PCs are using this "every encounter" against thinking opponents that they face off against regularly, you would think these opponents would clue in on the group's tactics. Usually that "is this OP" argument comes from someone not really thinking about natural reactions to things. It's only OP IF you let it be. So let the PCs use the spell, let it be effective. They did spend one of a very few spell slots that a warlock gets on it. Just don't let it be a game ender. Have NPCs move out of the sphere. If they are from a group that's seen the PCs use this tactic, start having the NPCs have a plan for escaping it once it's put down. Very easy for the NPCs to leave a clear exit free of obstacles. If they've already prepared, then they have a plan. Imagine the reaction of the PCs when the spell ends and the NPCs are 20' outside the 20' radius with readied range weapons. Now the PCs face the problem of having to charge the NPCs through ranged fire. That warlock is now down one spell slot, having done little or no damage. Depending on where they are at that point, have them be harassed by the enemy so they don't get a short rest, and the spell becomes a nuisance rather than a game ender.
if it is their lair or hideout... then assume the baddies can walk it blindfolded. I'm sure you can walk blindly through your own home as well right?