Would you allow for a legendary item IF it functioned only as a +1 weapon?
I'm thinking of maybe giving a player the Hammer of Thunderbolts, but not giving them the other 2 items for a LONG time (also not telling them it's the hammer of thunderbolts)
ideally i would have picked the ability at level 4, but i picked spell sniper instead (my bard has shit AC for a mid line fighter).
I also think you did you math wrong. I'm looking at 125 gold for the level 1 spells, 500 for the level 2 spells, and 1000 for the level 3 spells. Then an additional 750 gold to transfer them into your ritual book.
The math is also super weird because if you HAVE any of the spells in your "known spells" upon getting the feat, i can't see a reason you would need to make a spell scroll before putting the spells in the book. This probably means you make none, of the level 3 spell scroll, saving yourself 1000 gold. Also with how the feat works you save 100 gold because the ritual book comes with 2 ritual spells (that could in theory be on both the bard and wizard list). This doesn't even get into how you calculate costs with random spell scroll drops and how those relate to your characters level.... Does your character drop their first 100-125 gold into making spells scrolls even if they are only level 1-2? Do you average making one per level? 2? etc...
So i agree now that i look at it, it would be unfair for a player to come in "fresh" to a level 5 campaign with 100 (the spells i actually want) too 625 gold worth of spells scrolls PLUS none of those spells eating up slots PLUS what ever "normal" gear they need for the adventure.
Note that the Ritual Caster feat is not like the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation from the warlock Pact of the Tome feature. Ritual Caster only allows you to scribe ritual spells into it from the single chosen class you take the feat for, which also determines the casting ability for the ritual. If you take RC: Wizard (the way you're bloody supposed to), you can ONLY put ritual spells from the Wizard spell list into your ritual book. Not both bard and wizard spells, and not anybody else's ritual spells either.
The question is if it's BOTH a bard and a wizard ritual (like unseen servant) can you scribe the bard version and put it into the (wizard) ritual book? OR do you need to get a specifically WIZARD version of the spell scroll?
The spell scroll isn't anybody's "version". It's the spell on a sheet, anyone with casting knowledge of one sort or another can attempt to use it so long as the spell is on their spell list (which, frankly, completely and utterly destroys the value of scrolls and makes them essentially useless in 5e. Fight me).
If you're talking about taking Unseen Servant as a bard spell, scribing it into your ritual book, then replacing it the next time you level up, that's up to your DM. Most of the time I wouldn't demand that someone pay twice for scribing the spell - pay your gold to transcribe the bard spell into the wizard book - as a wizard spell, cast from INT, mind - and be about your business. The cost represents figuring out how to make the spell work a different way than you initially learned it.
If the player in question was going to make a habit of juggling spells that way though, constantly swapping bard spells on level-up specifically to cheese the book, I would start being harsher with it. I despise gamerism and pulling janky weirdboi rules hacks that have no basis in the in-universe game just to pull ahead in power; I don't mind munchkinism or minmaxing that accords with the game world, but the moment you break verisimilitude for the sake of numbermancy, I'm going to throw a brick at you. I imagine a lot of DMs would accord with that general view, as well.
Game and minimax all you like so long as it makes sense, and the story you're telling and the world you're living in don't suffer for it. Go beyond that, and head bricks.
I do not understand why people keep mentioning the spell casting stat you need to use. None of the rituals require a save / attack roll. I mean maybe your DM is weird and makes you roll an INT check after casting identify (even though the spell should work regardless). OR is the argument that you need to make a roll to be able to transfer a spell from spell book (or scroll) to spell book in addition to the normal costs of adding a spell to your spell book? (some sources say yes, others say no)
I think this falls more into min maxing then anything. Your character knows they can only keep so many spells in mind at a time, but they also understand that they can simply write down the spell thus not needing to memorize it. This lets them have access to very specific spells for very specific times, without having to blow the mental energy to keep "knowing" all the steps to make it work.
I mean i guess you could break this if you homebrew offensive/defensive rituals. Like "if you want to spend 10 mins casting the thing, you can totally have infinite casts of FIREBALL each day"
The spell scroll isn't anybody's "version". It's the spell on a sheet, anyone with casting knowledge of one sort or another can attempt to use it so long as the spell is on their spell list (which, frankly, completely and utterly destroys the value of scrolls and makes them essentially useless in 5e. Fight me).
You’ll get no argument from me there.
If you're talking about taking Unseen Servant as a bard spell, scribing it into your ritual book, then replacing it the next time you level up, that's up to your DM. Most of the time I wouldn't demand that someone pay twice for scribing the spell - pay your gold to transcribe the bard spell into the wizard book - as a wizard spell, cast from INT, mind - and be about your business. The cost represents figuring out how to make the spell work a different way than you initially learned it.
Nothing that's classed as a 'permanent' magic item. But i would allow them to take a magical or mundane consumable item (or 2) of uncommon or less, in addition to their level starting gear & gold.
The reason people harp on casting modifiers and spell lists, Zhule, is that it's very important to remember that the spells in your ritual book are not bard spells. Many class features, and some magic items, require a specific spellcasting class feature or levels in a specific class to function. Artificers, for example, can add certain modifiers to the damage or healing of spells they cast if those spells are artificer spells. A Staff of Power can only be attuned to by a sorcerer, warlock or wizard - having "wizard spells" from your ritual book doesn't count.
Whether it's important in your specific case I do not know, but it's a common "gotcha!" and also a common way people try to cheese the rules to pull fast ones on their DM.
ideally i would have picked the ability at level 4, but i picked spell sniper instead (my bard has shit AC for a mid line fighter).
I also think you did you math wrong. I'm looking at 125 gold for the level 1 spells, 500 for the level 2 spells, and 1000 for the level 3 spells. Then an additional 750 gold to transfer them into your ritual book.
...
So i agree now that i look at it, it would be unfair for a player to come in "fresh" to a level 5 campaign with 100 (the spells i actually want) too 625 gold worth of spells scrolls PLUS none of those spells eating up slots PLUS what ever "normal" gear they need for the adventure.
My math is only for the scribing of the spells per XGE rate of 50gp for a Common Magic Item crafting and 200gp for Uncommon, divide by half for consumables such as potions and scrolls.
There are only a limited number of ritual spells on both the bard and wizard lists, which is a requirement for all the bard spells to be swapped out after scribed.
Straight up this is more for me then for my players, but i think it could come up with some of them as well.
When starting a new campaign where the characters start at level 5, how many magic items / gold/ etc... would you allow a player to transfer over from previous campaigns/ starting fresh? Of course you don't want your party to have that one guy with +2/+3 every at level 5, but you also probably want them wearing something more then their level 1 starter gear. Similarly someone with 40,000 gold is probably going to buy their way through all humanoid issues, but someone with >10 gold can't really afford anything useful.
But the real question here, would you allow a player to start your campaign with like 10 spell scrolls (if they promised that 7-8 of them would be locked away till level 8, first chance they got)?
At level 5. Maybe 1 uncommon at best.
but that’s me personally. to me... players are typically level 10 or so to be “quite famous” and quite famous people tend to have magic items and such and that helps them be famous. At level 5. You’re basically a guy that still helps farmers clear up goblins, or maybe deals with town ruffians. Neither of which is magic item situations really per say.
- I will make exceptions to this, solely, depending on the characters backstory and such, and them giving a good RP (not battle mechanic) reason of how and why they have said magic item.
as to the starting gold. I’ll have them do some rolls to determine extra wealth. Because that DOES make sense a level 5 would have more money:
There is a table is on page 38 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. However, the text says:
Starting equipment for characters above 1st level is entirely at your discretion, since you give out treasure at your own pace. That said, you can use the Starting Equipment table as a guide.
The table is divided into four tiers of levels (matching the tiers described earlier in the DMG). Levels 1-4 get normal starting equipment. Higher levels get that plus some gold, with a base amount plus a die-roll for a little bit more. Characters starting at levels 5-10 get 500gp + 1d10×25, 11-16 get 5000gp + 1d10×250, and 17-20 get 20,000gp + 1d10×250.
Straight up this is more for me then for my players, but i think it could come up with some of them as well.
When starting a new campaign where the characters start at level 5, how many magic items / gold/ etc... would you allow a player to transfer over from previous campaigns/ starting fresh? Of course you don't want your party to have that one guy with +2/+3 every at level 5, but you also probably want them wearing something more then their level 1 starter gear. Similarly someone with 40,000 gold is probably going to buy their way through all humanoid issues, but someone with >10 gold can't really afford anything useful.
But the real question here, would you allow a player to start your campaign with like 10 spell scrolls (if they promised that 7-8 of them would be locked away till level 8, first chance they got)?
At level 5. Maybe 1 uncommon at best.
but that’s me personally. to me... players are typically level 10 or so to be “quite famous” and quite famous people tend to have magic items and such and that helps them be famous. At level 5. You’re basically a guy that still helps farmers clear up goblins, or maybe deals with town ruffians. Neither of which is magic item situations really per say.
- I will make exceptions to this, solely, depending on the characters backstory and such, and them giving a good RP (not battle mechanic) reason of how and why they have said magic item.
as to the starting gold. I’ll have them do some rolls to determine extra wealth. Because that DOES make sense a level 5 would have more money:
There is a table is on page 38 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. However, the text says:
Starting equipment for characters above 1st level is entirely at your discretion, since you give out treasure at your own pace. That said, you can use the Starting Equipment table as a guide.
The table is divided into four tiers of levels (matching the tiers described earlier in the DMG). Levels 1-4 get normal starting equipment. Higher levels get that plus some gold, with a base amount plus a die-roll for a little bit more. Characters starting at levels 5-10 get 500gp + 1d10×25, 11-16 get 5000gp + 1d10×250, and 17-20 get 20,000gp + 1d10×250.
Your players might be going at goblins and town ruffians, mine will be saving it from a Chimera. Or a Wyvern. Different adventure style I guess ;-)
At level 5. You’re basically a guy that still helps farmers clear up goblins, or maybe deals with town ruffians. Neither of which is magic item situations really per say.
At level 3 the party I DM for took on (and almost out) a legendary Wyvern with over 330HP, AC16, and 15’ reach tail. If they were still clearing out goblin nests at 5th level I would have had to have done something terribly wrong.
The party of level 5 characters I run for absolutely obliterated a nest of duergar, including a customized warlord boss and his eight minions with 70HP, 18AC, and a three-action multiattack. They took that guy out in one round, before he could even use his turn. Exactly one character in the party had a magic weapon, and that was basically just a +1
If your party is still dicking around in Cragmaw Hideout by level 5, either your players are godawful bad at D&D's combat elements, or something has gone very wrong in your campaign, man.
Thank you all for the great feedback. It sounds like my 5th level wood elf having only the Glamoured Studded Leather (essentially, pretty +1 studded leather) will be considered acceptable by most local area DMs.
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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
I'd go with one attuned item, uncommon. Maybe another common quirky household magic item. Any mundane equipment except full plate or take full plate in place of the magic item. Enough money to not worry about a night and meals at the local inn, not enough to buy more magic items.
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Would you allow for a legendary item IF it functioned only as a +1 weapon?
I'm thinking of maybe giving a player the Hammer of Thunderbolts, but not giving them the other 2 items for a LONG time (also not telling them it's the hammer of thunderbolts)
Or the Vestiges of Divergence, which are probably legendary.
If it scales, I might allow it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
ideally i would have picked the ability at level 4, but i picked spell sniper instead (my bard has shit AC for a mid line fighter).
I also think you did you math wrong. I'm looking at 125 gold for the level 1 spells, 500 for the level 2 spells, and 1000 for the level 3 spells. Then an additional 750 gold to transfer them into your ritual book.
The math is also super weird because if you HAVE any of the spells in your "known spells" upon getting the feat, i can't see a reason you would need to make a spell scroll before putting the spells in the book. This probably means you make none, of the level 3 spell scroll, saving yourself 1000 gold. Also with how the feat works you save 100 gold because the ritual book comes with 2 ritual spells (that could in theory be on both the bard and wizard list). This doesn't even get into how you calculate costs with random spell scroll drops and how those relate to your characters level.... Does your character drop their first 100-125 gold into making spells scrolls even if they are only level 1-2? Do you average making one per level? 2? etc...
So i agree now that i look at it, it would be unfair for a player to come in "fresh" to a level 5 campaign with 100 (the spells i actually want) too 625 gold worth of spells scrolls PLUS none of those spells eating up slots PLUS what ever "normal" gear they need for the adventure.
Note that the Ritual Caster feat is not like the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation from the warlock Pact of the Tome feature. Ritual Caster only allows you to scribe ritual spells into it from the single chosen class you take the feat for, which also determines the casting ability for the ritual. If you take RC: Wizard (the way you're bloody supposed to), you can ONLY put ritual spells from the Wizard spell list into your ritual book. Not both bard and wizard spells, and not anybody else's ritual spells either.
Please do not contact or message me.
The question is if it's BOTH a bard and a wizard ritual (like unseen servant) can you scribe the bard version and put it into the (wizard) ritual book? OR do you need to get a specifically WIZARD version of the spell scroll?
The spell scroll isn't anybody's "version". It's the spell on a sheet, anyone with casting knowledge of one sort or another can attempt to use it so long as the spell is on their spell list (which, frankly, completely and utterly destroys the value of scrolls and makes them essentially useless in 5e. Fight me).
If you're talking about taking Unseen Servant as a bard spell, scribing it into your ritual book, then replacing it the next time you level up, that's up to your DM. Most of the time I wouldn't demand that someone pay twice for scribing the spell - pay your gold to transcribe the bard spell into the wizard book - as a wizard spell, cast from INT, mind - and be about your business. The cost represents figuring out how to make the spell work a different way than you initially learned it.
If the player in question was going to make a habit of juggling spells that way though, constantly swapping bard spells on level-up specifically to cheese the book, I would start being harsher with it. I despise gamerism and pulling janky weirdboi rules hacks that have no basis in the in-universe game just to pull ahead in power; I don't mind munchkinism or minmaxing that accords with the game world, but the moment you break verisimilitude for the sake of numbermancy, I'm going to throw a brick at you. I imagine a lot of DMs would accord with that general view, as well.
Game and minimax all you like so long as it makes sense, and the story you're telling and the world you're living in don't suffer for it. Go beyond that, and head bricks.
Please do not contact or message me.
I do not understand why people keep mentioning the spell casting stat you need to use. None of the rituals require a save / attack roll. I mean maybe your DM is weird and makes you roll an INT check after casting identify (even though the spell should work regardless). OR is the argument that you need to make a roll to be able to transfer a spell from spell book (or scroll) to spell book in addition to the normal costs of adding a spell to your spell book? (some sources say yes, others say no)
I think this falls more into min maxing then anything. Your character knows they can only keep so many spells in mind at a time, but they also understand that they can simply write down the spell thus not needing to memorize it. This lets them have access to very specific spells for very specific times, without having to blow the mental energy to keep "knowing" all the steps to make it work.
I mean i guess you could break this if you homebrew offensive/defensive rituals. Like "if you want to spend 10 mins casting the thing, you can totally have infinite casts of FIREBALL each day"
You’ll get no argument from me there.
That makes sense to me.
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Nothing that's classed as a 'permanent' magic item.
But i would allow them to take a magical or mundane consumable item (or 2) of uncommon or less, in addition to their level starting gear & gold.
The reason people harp on casting modifiers and spell lists, Zhule, is that it's very important to remember that the spells in your ritual book are not bard spells. Many class features, and some magic items, require a specific spellcasting class feature or levels in a specific class to function. Artificers, for example, can add certain modifiers to the damage or healing of spells they cast if those spells are artificer spells. A Staff of Power can only be attuned to by a sorcerer, warlock or wizard - having "wizard spells" from your ritual book doesn't count.
Whether it's important in your specific case I do not know, but it's a common "gotcha!" and also a common way people try to cheese the rules to pull fast ones on their DM.
Please do not contact or message me.
My math is only for the scribing of the spells per XGE rate of 50gp for a Common Magic Item crafting and 200gp for Uncommon, divide by half for consumables such as potions and scrolls.
There are only a limited number of ritual spells on both the bard and wizard lists, which is a requirement for all the bard spells to be swapped out after scribed.
At level 5. Maybe 1 uncommon at best.
but that’s me personally.
to me... players are typically level 10 or so to be “quite famous” and quite famous people tend to have magic items and such and that helps them be famous.
At level 5. You’re basically a guy that still helps farmers clear up goblins, or maybe deals with town ruffians. Neither of which is magic item situations really per say.
- I will make exceptions to this, solely, depending on the characters backstory and such, and them giving a good RP (not battle mechanic) reason of how and why they have said magic item.
as to the starting gold. I’ll have them do some rolls to determine extra wealth. Because that DOES make sense a level 5 would have more money:
There is a table is on page 38 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. However, the text says:
The table is divided into four tiers of levels (matching the tiers described earlier in the DMG). Levels 1-4 get normal starting equipment. Higher levels get that plus some gold, with a base amount plus a die-roll for a little bit more. Characters starting at levels 5-10 get 500gp + 1d10×25, 11-16 get 5000gp + 1d10×250, and 17-20 get 20,000gp + 1d10×250.
Blank
the data i saw from XGE was that first levels cost 25 per, second levels 250, third 500. maybe i'm wrong but that was what i was going off.
Your players might be going at goblins and town ruffians, mine will be saving it from a Chimera. Or a Wyvern. Different adventure style I guess ;-)
At level 3 the party I DM for took on (and almost out) a legendary Wyvern with over 330HP, AC16, and 15’ reach tail. If they were still clearing out goblin nests at 5th level I would have had to have done something terribly wrong.
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The party of level 5 characters I run for absolutely obliterated a nest of duergar, including a customized warlord boss and his eight minions with 70HP, 18AC, and a three-action multiattack. They took that guy out in one round, before he could even use his turn. Exactly one character in the party had a magic weapon, and that was basically just a +1
If your party is still dicking around in Cragmaw Hideout by level 5, either your players are godawful bad at D&D's combat elements, or something has gone very wrong in your campaign, man.
Please do not contact or message me.
This is super interesting to me, because i'm playing one of the starter modules and the idea of fighting something with 300 health is terrifying.
I mean we are fighting some hobgoblins as our biggest normal enemies.
1 300HP Wyvern is way less terrifying than 300HP worth of Hobgoblins. Hobgoblins have more attacks.
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Thank you all for the great feedback. It sounds like my 5th level wood elf having only the Glamoured Studded Leather (essentially, pretty +1 studded leather) will be considered acceptable by most local area DMs.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
I'd go with one attuned item, uncommon. Maybe another common quirky household magic item. Any mundane equipment except full plate or take full plate in place of the magic item. Enough money to not worry about a night and meals at the local inn, not enough to buy more magic items.
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