I use it as insight into people and their motivations, and also as insight into situations. Sometimes, that's hunches, a feeling that something is out of place that you can't really define.
To me, the issue with the way this works in game is the name "investigation". It's just a poor name. The most common misuse is PC says "I search the room for loot or anything of interest" and DM says "roll investigation". I can see why the DM would do this - the character is investigating! But, as far as RAW goes, the above check should be a perception check. How well is the character using their senses to spot something?
Personally if investigation was called "deduction", I think people would use both in their intended ways with less confusion. To go back to the above example, PC rolls a 15 on perception and finds an unusual ring with a faint glow. PC: "can I work out the cause of the glow?" DM: "roll investigation".
That's the way I see it anyway. It is notoriously confusing, and my main recommendation is to decide how you want them both to work, write that down and set it in stone to reduce that feeling of inconsistency that you're having :)
To me, the issue with the way this works in game is the name "investigation". It's just a poor name. The most common misuse is PC says "I search the room for loot or anything of interest" and DM says "roll investigation". I can see why the DM would do this - the character is investigating! But, as far as RAW goes, the above check should be a perception check. How well is the character using their senses to spot something?
Depends if the problem is finding the thing, or the problem is realizing the thing is interesting.
So noticing things would be Perception, figuring how important what you found is would be Deduction, and Insight would be making an educated guess.
Insight is for noticing people's psychological state, it doesn't normally do anything when you're searching a room, unless you find someone's diary of mad scribblings and want to get a better understanding of their insanity.
I use it as insight into people and their motivations, and also as insight into situations. Sometimes, that's hunches, a feeling that something is out of place that you can't really define.
Interesting, but definitely not the standard RAW way to use or run Insight.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
It works on any living creature, so it's better in that respect than my version. It lets you predict the true intentions of a creature to figure out their next move. Perception lets you look at a creature, Investigation lets you glean clues, and Insight lets you use that to guess what they are going to do.
In effect, it's all three passives at once.
Perception: It lets you notice things.
Investigation: It lets you figure out what the things you noticed mean.
Insight: It lets you make an educated guess.
For NPCs, take them in order. For Player Characters, let them pick one, and make an active check, while giving them the benefit of the other two as passives. The DM picks a DC depending on the situation. This wouldn't work at all in combat, there's too much going on. Then it would be along the usual rules, one at at time as an Action.
To me, the issue with the way this works in game is the name "investigation". It's just a poor name. The most common misuse is PC says "I search the room for loot or anything of interest" and DM says "roll investigation". I can see why the DM would do this - the character is investigating! But, as far as RAW goes, the above check should be a perception check. How well is the character using their senses to spot something?
Depends if the problem is finding the thing, or the problem is realizing the thing is interesting.
This is a good way of phrasing this issue.
Can the PC notice the clue? A WIS check. If the clue is something to do with a person's behaviour or body language or mannerisms, then a WIS (Insight) check. If the clue is something to do with an animal's behaviour or body language or mannerisms, then a WIS (Animal Handling) check. If the clue is something to do with an inanimate object, then a WIS (Perception) check.
Does the PC need to determine what the clue means? An INT check. If prior knowledge is going to help, then an INT (History) or INT (Arcana) or INT (Religion) or INT (Nature) check. If knowing how things are related, how one thing leads to the next and the next and so on (which is part of both deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning), is going to help, then an INT (Investigation) check.
It is complicated as a lot of the time you need both to get the full picture. My shorthand is that if you could learn it from a book then in is Investigation.
Perception: you notice the obscured footprint
Investigation: from your studies, you can tell it was made by a person weighing x and with a slight limp.
Perception: the paving stones in this section look new
Investigation: this is a recently reset pit trap
Etc...
Thats just how I do it. Every table can do it differently, the main thing is to be consistent so players understand their own capabilities.
Perception to sense or notice, Investigation to deduce and interpret. Use passives before asking for roll. Perception = general; Investigation = specific.
I use it as insight into people and their motivations, and also as insight into situations. Sometimes, that's hunches, a feeling that something is out of place that you can't really define.
<Insert clever signature here>
To me, the issue with the way this works in game is the name "investigation". It's just a poor name. The most common misuse is PC says "I search the room for loot or anything of interest" and DM says "roll investigation". I can see why the DM would do this - the character is investigating! But, as far as RAW goes, the above check should be a perception check. How well is the character using their senses to spot something?
Personally if investigation was called "deduction", I think people would use both in their intended ways with less confusion. To go back to the above example, PC rolls a 15 on perception and finds an unusual ring with a faint glow. PC: "can I work out the cause of the glow?" DM: "roll investigation".
That's the way I see it anyway. It is notoriously confusing, and my main recommendation is to decide how you want them both to work, write that down and set it in stone to reduce that feeling of inconsistency that you're having :)
Depends if the problem is finding the thing, or the problem is realizing the thing is interesting.
So noticing things would be Perception, figuring how important what you found is would be Deduction, and Insight would be making an educated guess.
Imagine what the Observant feat would do. Hello Sherlock, nice to see you.
<Insert clever signature here>
Insight is for noticing people's psychological state, it doesn't normally do anything when you're searching a room, unless you find someone's diary of mad scribblings and want to get a better understanding of their insanity.
Interesting, but definitely not the standard RAW way to use or run Insight.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
It works on any living creature, so it's better in that respect than my version. It lets you predict the true intentions of a creature to figure out their next move. Perception lets you look at a creature, Investigation lets you glean clues, and Insight lets you use that to guess what they are going to do.
In effect, it's all three passives at once.
For NPCs, take them in order. For Player Characters, let them pick one, and make an active check, while giving them the benefit of the other two as passives. The DM picks a DC depending on the situation. This wouldn't work at all in combat, there's too much going on. Then it would be along the usual rules, one at at time as an Action.
<Insert clever signature here>
This is a good way of phrasing this issue.
Can the PC notice the clue? A WIS check.
If the clue is something to do with a person's behaviour or body language or mannerisms, then a WIS (Insight) check.
If the clue is something to do with an animal's behaviour or body language or mannerisms, then a WIS (Animal Handling) check.
If the clue is something to do with an inanimate object, then a WIS (Perception) check.
Does the PC need to determine what the clue means? An INT check.
If prior knowledge is going to help, then an INT (History) or INT (Arcana) or INT (Religion) or INT (Nature) check.
If knowing how things are related, how one thing leads to the next and the next and so on (which is part of both deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning), is going to help, then an INT (Investigation) check.
Perception = noticing something
Investigation = knowing something
It is complicated as a lot of the time you need both to get the full picture. My shorthand is that if you could learn it from a book then in is Investigation.
Perception: you notice the obscured footprint
Investigation: from your studies, you can tell it was made by a person weighing x and with a slight limp.
Perception: the paving stones in this section look new
Investigation: this is a recently reset pit trap
Etc...
Thats just how I do it. Every table can do it differently, the main thing is to be consistent so players understand their own capabilities.
Perception to sense or notice, Investigation to deduce and interpret. Use passives before asking for roll. Perception = general; Investigation = specific.
At least that’s how I do it.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons