My favorite tool to get the table disciplined to the game is to unapologetically run my game as I want. Metagaming is impossible if I'm willing to reskin monsters or change things given my fiat as DM (oh, that's how undead work in the MM? yeah, not these ones in my world, they're basically reskinned undead type orcs so the CR isn't off). Getting distracted doesn't mean I'm going to pause the world.
After a couple of situations where they go "wait, what did you say?" and I say "the monsters get a surprise round" and they respond with how their CHARACTER would have been paying attention, I make it clear that I gave clues and hints and was describing the scene... you miss your chance to respond if you aren't paying attention.
Be assertive. Run your game. Don't let them walk over you.
Hello Beyond Community, I DM a Group of Family and Family-Friends, so it's no choice to not be at the gaming table with them
The Group used to be them without me, as I used to be too young. I GMed Pathfinder and D&D on Roll20. a few years after 5E came out, we played, I started Co-DMing with the Normal DM, I have noticed, since they are a casual group; They like to talk and not pay attention when I speak and give them game details, they then ask and I tell them they should have been listening, they act like I'm the one with issues. My dad meta games, because he knows so much playing for 20+ years. I have also noticed many other bad habits of others, I was woundering if anyone knew of a Way to either punish them, or stop them from all these bad habits
Hey, let them meta game, and have fun with them, surprise them.
Say a red-black meteor comes crashing in your fantasy world one night, and then, after the meteor, some monsters work as normal (and you let them meta game and have fun with this) but other monsters have this faint red aura in them, and they use the stats of a completely different creature (picture a water elemental working as a salamander, or a hydra/beholder), now they'll have fun when they meta game and discover they'll fail miserable, now they have to discover what creature this monster really is.
Make objects also glow with this faint red aura, and make some of them illusions and others real (fake traps/real traps, fake chests/real chests, etc).
Use the meteor event to mess with their real heads (not only with the characters' heads), engage them and get their attention, because now you'll be bringing something really different for them to explore.
oh here is another idea. some people like to use dice bowls and give the players either second chances on rolls or inspiration if they are playing well. you as dm could also get a dice bowl that gets a die every time a player meta games.
Thanks Everyone, I've made a Small Infraction Chart, and I'm Implementing your ideas, once you get enough infraction points, You get negative character Buffs
So by implementing people's suggestions, you mean completely ignoring the repeated number of posts encouraging you not to punish players. As others have said, if you truly want it to end then you need to talk with them.
If you're having trouble framing the conversation, you can start by talking about what specifically is happening and the effect it's having on your level of enjoyment. Focus on behaviors, not on people. Avoid namecalling. Be clear and concise. Practice the conversation by yourself if you have to. While you're talking with them, do your best to be open and avoid defensiveness. They may bring up something you're doing that is hampering their fun that you didn't even realize was happening and you'll be a better DM having learned about it.
So, you need to talk with them. It's difficult, it can be uncomfortable, but it's going to be worth it. Communication is the magic bullet for a lot of problems in life.
Really, punishing your players with an infraction chart isn't going to solve very much. Set your expectations and run your game. Don't tolerate bad practices, get ahead of them.
Saying you've spoken to them, set clear expectation, and still aren't getting any results, why don't you use their "bad habits" to your benefit? Talk outside the game and put their experience to use to throw something at them that they'd not be expecting? What do they think is going to happen? What can you plot that they'd never expect? What can you change or do in your world that would throw them for a loop and really make them stop and think? I've noticed that when players are meta-gaming, they're usually looking for a challenge. (Not always though. Some are just buttheads.) So if we're following a published adventure, you know what? "Ooops! Sorry, dude. This is not that kind of _____... or maybe it is but ____" And, yeah, there may be arguments, but who's the DM here? If we're doing home brew, heaven help the metagamer that sits at my table. Not because I'm going to punish them, but because I'm going to play my world where what you think is about to happen, who you think you're dealing with, is absolutely not what you're going to find.
Also, give them an opportunity to use that knowledge. Work their behaviors into encounters. Let them understand that everything they do or say when they sit down to your table is going to effect their dearly beloved characters lives, for good or for ill.
Doing so, though, you have to remember it's their game, too. If my players aren't listening, I say "What do you think happened?" or "I reckon you'd better hope your group was paying attention, because something bad could be about to happen!" I won't repeat myself, and I won't give out repeated details, even to a successful roll, unless I'm feeling extra charitable. Actually, I usually won't talk when they're not paying attention...lol. I'll very slowly, and dramatically pick up my dice and start shaking them emphatically. (Which, because my players know me, they usually start shouting, "No! Guys, shut up! Oh my Lord, what did y'all do to us?!?" *bwahaha*)
As a preventative, I'll find or create points in the game that they can just take over. And not the standard fall-back 'You're in a pub, drinking ale and having a conversation/bar fight/whatever." You are in a cavern that's about 30 feet wide with an outcropping of stone blocking about half of the cavern. What can YOU do? What can YOU find out? What do YOU see/hear/smell? What are YOU drawn to? Then, we'll create that part of the adventure together. "How does Jakar know that? Where did he get that knowledge? Why would he have not used it when we were in such-and-such place?" OH, you found a scroll detailing this information and hid it from the rest of the party? Oh, guys, what else could this clever, little devil be hiding from you?!
Good luck. I hope it helps, or you've found something else that will. It's easier to establish control BEFORE you're in the middle of a game than have to retake it in the middle, especially with seasoned players.
Actually, I usually won't talk when they're not paying attention...lol. I'll very slowly, and dramatically pick up my dice and start shaking them emphatically. (Which, because my players know me, they usually start shouting, "No! Guys, shut up! Oh my Lord, what did y'all do to us?!?" *bwahaha*)
I like this idea, it entertains me. I might try it.
As for punish/reward: For now I want to try to use the "inspiration" system in my 3.5 game and see how that motivates them. I wil still try to interrupt meta talk and thinking, but unless its directly influencing the game I dont want to punish somebody.
I found inspiration to be a great tool and I would encourage you to give it a try. There isn't advantage in 3.5, so I guess you could just make it a flat +/- 5 bonus. I give it out liberally - if someone does something really cool or inventive, solves a puzzle, creates a great character moment, makes an unexpected decision that fits within the frame of their character, when they level up, etc.
An example is when group got a good roll on a perception check and were able to set up a creative ambush on an ankheg they came across. The got a surprise round and killed it before it could even make a move - my response: "Super cool that you guys just greased that ankheg in one round - here's some inspiration for everyone!"
I also removed the one per player cap, instead choosing to let them stack it up and spend it as they please. I do give friendly reminders they have it to spend when things are going south or when they are about to take some crucial action. They generally don't stockpile it because they know more is coming.
What I've found is it has inspired them (see what I did there) to be even more creative and role play better (and they are all great role players already). I really love it and I'm curious to see how it works for your group.
One thing we know pretty definitively about human psychology is that rewards work far better than punishment to change behavior. Be assertive and talk about your issues with your players and find ways to reward them for good behavior. Punishment isn't likely to do much, and your players may not even know exactly what they're being punished for. There's nothing wrong with just talking to your players.
This!
I've even gone as far as adding these "Contribution Bonuses" to my campaign house rules:
– A player ready to announce their character actions immediately upon the initiative turn receive a +1 bonus that may be applied as they wish, e.g. to attack roll, saving throw, spell DC or damage.
– Players who describe their actions/social interaction in-character, receive a +1d4 bonus to that action/interaction, or +d6 if the action is reasonably linked to the character’s background.
I'm not above taking some revenge for bad table habits get really annoying though, so I added this too:
– Players who are inattentive or cause distraction to game play grant the DM a +1d6 bonus that can be applied to one NPC/monster actions/saving throws/damage etc.
I think that's fair--punishment tends to work okay in the short-term, provided the person knows what they are being punished for. It's really a bad way to try to shape long-term behavioral change, though, particularly since most DMs I know who are all about punishment dole it out in such a way that the player doesn't even know they're being punished, or if they do, they have no clue what they're being punished for. I'd wager most players just think it's the DM's "style." How many of us know the stereotype of the DM whose most relished goal is a TPK?
Think of it like training a dog. You can punish a dog for bad behavior, and he may eventually comply - but you break his spirit and there is all this negative energy and un-needed drama (and they may even develop problems like nervously peeing on your floor).
Another approach is to reward good behavior right when you see it, either through dolling out Inspiration to the players that modeling the desired behavior, or by verbally letting them know you appreciate certain behaviors. Thank them for good roleplay, for being prepared, for knowing the rules, and for gracefully allowing you to break them for the fun of the game. You would be surprised by how good this approach works.
I want some sort of Infraction system, I know they don't mean to do it or try to do it so they can bug anyone, just there needs to be something there to remind them
They like to talk and not pay attention when I speak and give them game details, they then ask and I tell them they should have been listening, they act like I'm the one with issues.
Make sure that if they weren't listening the first time then they miss the information. Make their choice (not paying attention) have consequences (they don't make optimal choices in combat).
For example, I start each round in combat with a quick run through how many monsters are left, their rough health, and what they seem likely to do. If, on a player's turn they ask me "which monster is most wounded?" then my response is "that will take you action, as you study the monsters to see their relative health." If the player complains, I tell them, "well, you should have been paying attention at the start of the round summary." If they dither around or argue further then my response is, "Right, your character takes the defend action. Next person please."
Players often stop paying attention in combat because it takes to long to get to their turn. Well, it usually takes too long to get to their turn because players are not paying attention! Sell it to the people at the table that the reward for paying attention and acting quickly is that everyone gets to do more stuff. More combats, more encounters, more roleplaying, more loot, more everything.
My dad meta games, because he knows so much playing for 20+ years.
Some metagaming is fine. Adventurers talk to each other in taverns, trading information, so it is fair that an adventurer who has never met a troll knows to use fire. In fact, if a player asks me, "I know that ghasts have a paralysing aura but does my character know that?" then my response is, "It's your character, you tell me."
Often I tell the players the information anyway. "The thing in front of you is a ten foot long worm with lots of tentacles. You've heard of these, they paralyse prey and drag it away to eat it. Adventurers call them carrion crawlers."
So, learn to live with the metagaming. It's not all bad. Players should generally be rewarded for learning stuff.
However, to keep it fresh and interesting, switch things around sometimes (not often, just sometimes).
Maybe this carrion crawler breathes fire! If the players think to take the body back to town and sell it to an alchemist, then reward them. "A carrion crawler that breathes fire? That is rare indeed. How much do you folks want for the corpse?"
Maybe the townsfolk describe the attackers as goblins but when the adventurers track them to their lair, they find feral halflings?
And finally, welcome to this side of the GM screen! We have wasabi peas¹.
¹ Well, I have wasabi peas and that's because I told my players I am easily bribed. Wasabi peas and pizza are worth inspiration.
sounds like you need to find a group of adults to play with.
Punish the DM first for allowing the behavior to go past the first incident.
Also, I may suggest you may be getting to wordy or detailed in your details. People get bored with a lecture or someone reading descriptions from a book. If your using pre-made adventures that is very common issue with them.
In the 4-5 years since this thread, they probably have sorted out their issues.
1). Find the player (s) that are most focus and recruit him to help keep others on track with side conversations after the game
2). Keep the pace moving quickly. People usually check out when they don’t have to make decisions or it’s a part of the game they are less interested in. If the pace is faster, you can engage more people
3). If they don’t remember a detail, tell them their character forgot or was distracted and is at a disadvantage or make them roll to remember and reward the players that are paying attention.
sounds like you need to find a group of adults to play with.
Punish the DM first for allowing the behavior to go past the first incident.
Also, I may suggest you may be getting to wordy or detailed in your details. People get bored with a lecture or someone reading descriptions from a book. If your using pre-made adventures that is very common issue with them.
In the 4-5 years since this thread, they probably have sorted out their issues.
Ugg I really would like the forums to default to newest first. And disable responses for posts older than a given time frame.
sounds like you need to find a group of adults to play with.
Punish the DM first for allowing the behavior to go past the first incident.
Also, I may suggest you may be getting to wordy or detailed in your details. People get bored with a lecture or someone reading descriptions from a book. If your using pre-made adventures that is very common issue with them.
In the 4-5 years since this thread, they probably have sorted out their issues.
Ugg I really would like the forums to default to newest first. And disable responses for posts older than a given time frame.
They... they do display the most recently-posted-in first....
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
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"What you saw belongs to you. A story doesn't live until it is imagined in someone's mind."
― Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
Say a red-black meteor comes crashing in your fantasy world one night, and then, after the meteor, some monsters work as normal (and you let them meta game and have fun with this) but other monsters have this faint red aura in them, and they use the stats of a completely different creature (picture a water elemental working as a salamander, or a hydra/beholder), now they'll have fun when they meta game and discover they'll fail miserable, now they have to discover what creature this monster really is.
Make objects also glow with this faint red aura, and make some of them illusions and others real (fake traps/real traps, fake chests/real chests, etc).
Use the meteor event to mess with their real heads (not only with the characters' heads), engage them and get their attention, because now you'll be bringing something really different for them to explore.
Or you could just find a new group. No one can make you be a DM.
oh here is another idea. some people like to use dice bowls and give the players either second chances on rolls or inspiration if they are playing well. you as dm could also get a dice bowl that gets a die every time a player meta games.
Really, punishing your players with an infraction chart isn't going to solve very much. Set your expectations and run your game. Don't tolerate bad practices, get ahead of them.
Saying you've spoken to them, set clear expectation, and still aren't getting any results, why don't you use their "bad habits" to your benefit? Talk outside the game and put their experience to use to throw something at them that they'd not be expecting? What do they think is going to happen? What can you plot that they'd never expect? What can you change or do in your world that would throw them for a loop and really make them stop and think? I've noticed that when players are meta-gaming, they're usually looking for a challenge. (Not always though. Some are just buttheads.) So if we're following a published adventure, you know what? "Ooops! Sorry, dude. This is not that kind of _____... or maybe it is but ____" And, yeah, there may be arguments, but who's the DM here? If we're doing home brew, heaven help the metagamer that sits at my table. Not because I'm going to punish them, but because I'm going to play my world where what you think is about to happen, who you think you're dealing with, is absolutely not what you're going to find.
Also, give them an opportunity to use that knowledge. Work their behaviors into encounters. Let them understand that everything they do or say when they sit down to your table is going to effect their dearly beloved characters lives, for good or for ill.
Doing so, though, you have to remember it's their game, too. If my players aren't listening, I say "What do you think happened?" or "I reckon you'd better hope your group was paying attention, because something bad could be about to happen!" I won't repeat myself, and I won't give out repeated details, even to a successful roll, unless I'm feeling extra charitable. Actually, I usually won't talk when they're not paying attention...lol. I'll very slowly, and dramatically pick up my dice and start shaking them emphatically. (Which, because my players know me, they usually start shouting, "No! Guys, shut up! Oh my Lord, what did y'all do to us?!?" *bwahaha*)
As a preventative, I'll find or create points in the game that they can just take over. And not the standard fall-back 'You're in a pub, drinking ale and having a conversation/bar fight/whatever." You are in a cavern that's about 30 feet wide with an outcropping of stone blocking about half of the cavern. What can YOU do? What can YOU find out? What do YOU see/hear/smell? What are YOU drawn to? Then, we'll create that part of the adventure together. "How does Jakar know that? Where did he get that knowledge? Why would he have not used it when we were in such-and-such place?" OH, you found a scroll detailing this information and hid it from the rest of the party? Oh, guys, what else could this clever, little devil be hiding from you?!
Good luck. I hope it helps, or you've found something else that will. It's easier to establish control BEFORE you're in the middle of a game than have to retake it in the middle, especially with seasoned players.
I've even gone as far as adding these "Contribution Bonuses" to my campaign house rules:
– A player ready to announce their character actions immediately upon the initiative turn receive a +1 bonus that may be applied as they wish, e.g. to attack roll, saving throw, spell DC or damage.
– Players who describe their actions/social interaction in-character, receive a +1d4 bonus to that action/interaction, or +d6 if the action is reasonably linked to the character’s background.
I'm not above taking some revenge for bad table habits get really annoying though, so I added this too:
– Players who are inattentive or cause distraction to game play grant the DM a +1d6 bonus that can be applied to one NPC/monster actions/saving throws/damage etc.
I think that's fair--punishment tends to work okay in the short-term, provided the person knows what they are being punished for. It's really a bad way to try to shape long-term behavioral change, though, particularly since most DMs I know who are all about punishment dole it out in such a way that the player doesn't even know they're being punished, or if they do, they have no clue what they're being punished for. I'd wager most players just think it's the DM's "style." How many of us know the stereotype of the DM whose most relished goal is a TPK?
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Think of it like training a dog. You can punish a dog for bad behavior, and he may eventually comply - but you break his spirit and there is all this negative energy and un-needed drama (and they may even develop problems like nervously peeing on your floor).
Another approach is to reward good behavior right when you see it, either through dolling out Inspiration to the players that modeling the desired behavior, or by verbally letting them know you appreciate certain behaviors. Thank them for good roleplay, for being prepared, for knowing the rules, and for gracefully allowing you to break them for the fun of the game. You would be surprised by how good this approach works.
Some metagaming is fine. Adventurers talk to each other in taverns, trading information, so it is fair that an adventurer who has never met a troll knows to use fire. In fact, if a player asks me, "I know that ghasts have a paralysing aura but does my character know that?" then my response is, "It's your character, you tell me."
Often I tell the players the information anyway. "The thing in front of you is a ten foot long worm with lots of tentacles. You've heard of these, they paralyse prey and drag it away to eat it. Adventurers call them carrion crawlers."
So, learn to live with the metagaming. It's not all bad. Players should generally be rewarded for learning stuff.
However, to keep it fresh and interesting, switch things around sometimes (not often, just sometimes).
Maybe this carrion crawler breathes fire! If the players think to take the body back to town and sell it to an alchemist, then reward them. "A carrion crawler that breathes fire? That is rare indeed. How much do you folks want for the corpse?"
Maybe the townsfolk describe the attackers as goblins but when the adventurers track them to their lair, they find feral halflings?
And finally, welcome to this side of the GM screen! We have wasabi peas¹.
¹ Well, I have wasabi peas and that's because I told my players I am easily bribed. Wasabi peas and pizza are worth inspiration.
In the 4-5 years since this thread, they probably have sorted out their issues.
1). Find the player (s) that are most focus and recruit him to help keep others on track with side conversations after the game
2). Keep the pace moving quickly. People usually check out when they don’t have to make decisions or it’s a part of the game they are less interested in. If the pace is faster, you can engage more people
3). If they don’t remember a detail, tell them their character forgot or was distracted and is at a disadvantage or make them roll to remember and reward the players that are paying attention.
Ugg I really would like the forums to default to newest first. And disable responses for posts older than a given time frame.
They... they do display the most recently-posted-in first....
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.