so my party is going to have their city that they are in fall under siege soon by an army of goblins but I need tips on how to make something like this more interesting for the players. Anyone able to help?
A common way for a besieging army to attempt to breach the walls was called “sapping.” The army would bombard the walls with fire, arrows, whatever to keep the defenders busy and provide cover for the sappers. Sappers would be digging a tunnel to, and then under the walls. Once they were under the walls, they would suspend a plank or upside down table from ropes, pile it high with loose flour (which is highly combustible) and then place a candle under one of the ropes and run like hell. When the rope burned through, one corner of the table would drop, the flour would plume into the air, and when it hit the candle flame it would cause a massive explosion to bring the wall crashing into the tunnel clearing a path for the army to invade (instead of them having to scramble over a collapsed wall). Needless to say, being a sapper was very dangerous. Considering how little Goblins value life, and how “prone to malfunction” their inventions can be, that could lead to manymuch interesting things to happen.
Also, goblin spies will be inevitable.
And don’t forget the cows. Another common way to overcome a besieged city was to use catapults to launch diseased cow corpses over the walls to spread diseases among the populace without causing much damage to structures. Diseased cows sound very Goblinish to me.
Nighttime stealth mission to obtain something crucial from the surrounding army or to assassinate a high ranking member in the middle of the night to land a blow that will give the “good guys” the upper hand.
I want to know more about how to run sieges as well, but so far I've found this piece of advice from most forums:
DON'T run all 60 enemies in the army into 55 NPC allies and the party all at once. If you have to move 60 enemies at once, then all the NPC allies, the siege will get boring for the players. So for large-scale battles, focus on what the players and the enemies directly next to them are doing.
Example: the players are grouped together and five of the enemy goblins attack them specifically. Occasionally some other goblins and NPC allies will join in, but the spotlight is mostly on the players until the battle is over (assume the NPCs finish off the rest of the goblin army). If you really want to spice it up, maybe the goblin army's commander fights the players specifically and after he falls, the rest of the goblins fall as well to the army or flee in terror.
You can correct me if I'm doing this wrong - I'm not too experienced either - but this is just how I'd like to do this.
Well I’m going to be running an assault on a city soon and I don’t know if I’m doing it the “right” way or if there is a right way but this is how I’m going to do it:
First I’ll describe the undead army approaching the city and clashing with the soldiers stationed out front, then ask the players “what do you do?” there will be ballista and other siege equipment for the players to fire into the army. But not long after they’ll hear an odd high pitch noise ramping up from somewhere within the city - I’ll tell them all to make perception checks at this point - and they’ll witness a massive explosion to a large building from where the noise was coming from, those with a successful perception check will see the BBEG and his trusty generals flying into the broken building (who will also have been noticeably absent from the main army). So my strategy and hope here is to not deal with the big army at all and lure the players away into what may be the final confrontation with the BBEG. When they finish their battle they can deal with whatever is left of the battle going on outside, maybe some zombies are making it into the city or something I don’t know.
That's perfect! Why deal with a siege when you can simply fight the army's boss in the sidelines and not worry about action economy and all the other stuff I mentioned? This is always what I prefer to do.
Last thing I’ll say is a siege often first attempts not to assault the city, but threaten to cut off supplies to the city while maintaining an intimidating force outside the walls. A siege can go on for a very long time before an actual assault occurs. Whether you decide to play that side of a siege is up to you, but even if the goblin army sat outside the walls a couple days to a week, cutting off food supplies and occupying nearby water sources, this could be plenty of time to have some side quests leading up to the final assault. - take back the water supply
so my party is going to have their city that they are in fall under siege soon by an army of goblins but I need tips on how to make something like this more interesting for the players. Anyone able to help?
My group played a series of adventure league modules that ended with a siege. Before the battle, you did tasks to prepare for the battle. Then, when the enemy attacked in waves, you could spend some of your preparation tokens to thin the herd to more manageable numbers. it wasn't /perfect/ but it worked and was pretty fun. the adventure in question is called "DDAL5-16 - Parnast Under Siege" and should be available on DM's guild.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
There really haven’t been official mass combat rules since the BECMI days, I don’t think. Even then, as noted, you don’t want to sit there and have the DM roll attacks for 30 NPCs then one person in party gets to go, then another 15 NPCs, etc.
I suggest you decide who would win the fight if the PCs don’t get involved. Not just who, but how large of a victory. Then you give the PCs a side mission (or more than one) that can impact the outcome. And depending on the degree of their success, alter the outcome. Like if you send them to kill the enemy commanders, and there are 5 of them. If the only kill 1, maybe their side still loses, but isn’t completely routed, if they get to 3, then their side wins but barely and they could not withstand another assault. If they get all 5, maybe the enemy flees without even attacking. Then you let the PCs be central and the heroes, and you don’t make everyone else sit there while you roll to see if a commoner hits a goblin.
Tl;dr don’t put the PCs in the middle of a mass combat, it’s boring. Give them a high impact mission on the fringes.
To be honest, in a world where spells like Teleport, Misty Step, and Disintegrate exist, sieges would probably be largely unnecessary.
I don't see an army of goblins having access to most of these spells, at least not in the numbers necessary to invalidate a siege.
Set up the siege at the end of a session. Ask the players how they'd like to contribute. Plan your next session accordingly. A siege is a reactive thing. Having the players drive the reaction will be much more fun for everyone than having a guard captain walk up and be like, "yo, smash those ballistas."
To be honest, in a world where spells like Teleport, Misty Step, and Disintegrate exist, sieges would probably be largely unnecessary.
I don't see an army of goblins having access to most of these spells, at least not in the numbers necessary to invalidate a siege.
Set up the siege at the end of a session. Ask the players how they'd like to contribute. Plan your next session accordingly. A siege is a reactive thing. Having the players drive the reaction will be much more fun for everyone than having a guard captain walk up and be like, "yo, smash those ballistas."
One 11th level Goblin Evoker could bring down an entire section of wall with a single casting of Disintegrate. Just sayin’.
i'd also read first-hand accounts of historical sieges to get ideas. they'll have to continually fight off other groups of allies within the walls to protect their food and water, neither of which are replaceable. i'd go through the diseases in the DMG and maybe pick up some third party homebrew stuff on diseases as well...and read up on IRL diseases like dysentery and cholera. diseases being transmitted by flies and rats feeding on rotting corpses.
not just diseases, the goblins could poison their water supply if there is one or poison whatever foodstores are still available.
so my party is going to have their city that they are in fall under siege soon by an army of goblins but I need tips on how to make something like this more interesting for the players. Anyone able to help?
A common way for a besieging army to attempt to breach the walls was called “sapping.” The army would bombard the walls with fire, arrows, whatever to keep the defenders busy and provide cover for the sappers. Sappers would be digging a tunnel to, and then under the walls. Once they were under the walls, they would suspend a plank or upside down table from ropes, pile it high with loose flour (which is highly combustible) and then place a candle under one of the ropes and run like hell.
When the rope burned through, one corner of the table would drop, the flour would plume into the air, and when it hit the candle flame it would cause a massive explosion to bring the wall crashing into the tunnel clearing a path for the army to invade (instead of them having to scramble over a collapsed wall).
Needless to say, being a sapper was very dangerous. Considering how little Goblins value life, and how “prone to malfunction” their inventions can be, that could lead to manymuch interesting things to happen.
Also, goblin spies will be inevitable.
And don’t forget the cows. Another common way to overcome a besieged city was to use catapults to launch diseased cow corpses over the walls to spread diseases among the populace without causing much damage to structures.
Diseased cows sound very Goblinish to me.
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Nighttime stealth mission to obtain something crucial from the surrounding army or to assassinate a high ranking member in the middle of the night to land a blow that will give the “good guys” the upper hand.
I want to know more about how to run sieges as well, but so far I've found this piece of advice from most forums:
DON'T run all 60 enemies in the army into 55 NPC allies and the party all at once. If you have to move 60 enemies at once, then all the NPC allies, the siege will get boring for the players. So for large-scale battles, focus on what the players and the enemies directly next to them are doing.
Example: the players are grouped together and five of the enemy goblins attack them specifically. Occasionally some other goblins and NPC allies will join in, but the spotlight is mostly on the players until the battle is over (assume the NPCs finish off the rest of the goblin army). If you really want to spice it up, maybe the goblin army's commander fights the players specifically and after he falls, the rest of the goblins fall as well to the army or flee in terror.
You can correct me if I'm doing this wrong - I'm not too experienced either - but this is just how I'd like to do this.
Well I’m going to be running an assault on a city soon and I don’t know if I’m doing it the “right” way or if there is a right way but this is how I’m going to do it:
First I’ll describe the undead army approaching the city and clashing with the soldiers stationed out front, then ask the players “what do you do?” there will be ballista and other siege equipment for the players to fire into the army. But not long after they’ll hear an odd high pitch noise ramping up from somewhere within the city - I’ll tell them all to make perception checks at this point - and they’ll witness a massive explosion to a large building from where the noise was coming from, those with a successful perception check will see the BBEG and his trusty generals flying into the broken building (who will also have been noticeably absent from the main army).
So my strategy and hope here is to not deal with the big army at all and lure the players away into what may be the final confrontation with the BBEG. When they finish their battle they can deal with whatever is left of the battle going on outside, maybe some zombies are making it into the city or something I don’t know.
That's perfect! Why deal with a siege when you can simply fight the army's boss in the sidelines and not worry about action economy and all the other stuff I mentioned? This is always what I prefer to do.
Thanks for all the help guys I appreciate it
Last thing I’ll say is a siege often first attempts not to assault the city, but threaten to cut off supplies to the city while maintaining an intimidating force outside the walls. A siege can go on for a very long time before an actual assault occurs. Whether you decide to play that side of a siege is up to you, but even if the goblin army sat outside the walls a couple days to a week, cutting off food supplies and occupying nearby water sources, this could be plenty of time to have some side quests leading up to the final assault.
- take back the water supply
- escort food supplies into the city
- poison the goblin’s water/food supplies.
- destroy goblin siege equipment, catapults, ballista, etc...
- free prisoners from the goblin army camp
- the goblins could try to pull off a Trojan horse scenario, it should be obvious to the players but it’s something else.
- attempt negotiations
- and then again assassinate important goblins or recover important items.
hope it goes well, sounds fun just thinking about it.
To be honest, in a world where spells like Teleport, Misty Step, and Disintegrate exist, sieges would probably be largely unnecessary.
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My group played a series of adventure league modules that ended with a siege. Before the battle, you did tasks to prepare for the battle. Then, when the enemy attacked in waves, you could spend some of your preparation tokens to thin the herd to more manageable numbers. it wasn't /perfect/ but it worked and was pretty fun. the adventure in question is called "DDAL5-16 - Parnast Under Siege" and should be available on DM's guild.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There really haven’t been official mass combat rules since the BECMI days, I don’t think. Even then, as noted, you don’t want to sit there and have the DM roll attacks for 30 NPCs then one person in party gets to go, then another 15 NPCs, etc.
I suggest you decide who would win the fight if the PCs don’t get involved. Not just who, but how large of a victory. Then you give the PCs a side mission (or more than one) that can impact the outcome. And depending on the degree of their success, alter the outcome. Like if you send them to kill the enemy commanders, and there are 5 of them. If the only kill 1, maybe their side still loses, but isn’t completely routed, if they get to 3, then their side wins but barely and they could not withstand another assault. If they get all 5, maybe the enemy flees without even attacking.
Then you let the PCs be central and the heroes, and you don’t make everyone else sit there while you roll to see if a commoner hits a goblin.
Tl;dr don’t put the PCs in the middle of a mass combat, it’s boring. Give them a high impact mission on the fringes.
I don't see an army of goblins having access to most of these spells, at least not in the numbers necessary to invalidate a siege.
Set up the siege at the end of a session. Ask the players how they'd like to contribute. Plan your next session accordingly. A siege is a reactive thing. Having the players drive the reaction will be much more fun for everyone than having a guard captain walk up and be like, "yo, smash those ballistas."
One 11th level Goblin Evoker could bring down an entire section of wall with a single casting of Disintegrate. Just sayin’.
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i'd also read first-hand accounts of historical sieges to get ideas. they'll have to continually fight off other groups of allies within the walls to protect their food and water, neither of which are replaceable. i'd go through the diseases in the DMG and maybe pick up some third party homebrew stuff on diseases as well...and read up on IRL diseases like dysentery and cholera. diseases being transmitted by flies and rats feeding on rotting corpses.
not just diseases, the goblins could poison their water supply if there is one or poison whatever foodstores are still available.
spells like cloudkill and other gas attacks.
a non-stop barrage of deadly boulders and burning oil impacting everywhere.
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