I agree. The DM's role shouldn't be to punish players. Characters suffering the logical consequences of their actions yes, should happen, and is not a punishment. But punishing players -- the DM shouldn't have to be like the school principal keeping you after class. If you're doing that as DM, something is very wrong.
There's a part of me that would be quite tempted to have the paladin captured and charged with aiding and abetting a fugitive...since he adventured with the fugitive after all.
If you did that, you'd have to punish the others, and then everyone would be angry at you. Not only the player that you got executed while he wasn't even at the table, but also your other three players who were punished for not saving the player, even though you put the player in the situation in the first place, without their consent.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
Yes, the trial is a sham, but the entire point is to coerce the party into acting against one of the Kong’s rivals. “Force” them to agree to do X, whatever X is. Once they agree, their fellow is conditionally released. Once their party is whole again they find themselves embroiled in a plot among multiple factions all vying by proxy for dominance over some odd, all but inconsequential piece of “power” that is merely one front in a “cold civil war.”
Yes, the trial is a sham, but the entire point is to coerce the party into acting against one of the Kong’s rivals. “Force” them to agree to do X, whatever X is. Once they agree, their fellow is conditionally released. Once their party is whole again they find themselves embroiled in a plot among multiple factions all vying by proxy for dominance over some odd, all but inconsequential piece of “power” that is merely one front in a “cold civil war.”
Hunh, yeah? Wadaya think?
Could be interesting. Could also be a great setup that could be tied into the overarching story of SKT with one of the parties involved being the BBEG of that story. It would fit within the scope of that story, let it play out in the course of that story while setting some groundwork to continue after SKT is done. One of the normal factions could be the one that rescues the PC and brings the party into play in "the greater scheme" of things happening. If it happened before going to Triboar or one of the other locations, it's not even a disruption per se, just an added storyline from a backstory.
During the party's visit to the keep in Nightstone, one of the guards recognised my party member as the person responsible for killing Lord Nandar and called him out in front of the other members. For the record, the player chose to add that to his backstory himself, knowing it could come back to haunt him.
And yes, the paladin was happy to travel with him for over an in-game month without issue. We were also missing another player that time, but the two remaining players went along with it.
Reminds me of an old saying my mother used to have when I was hanging around with one of the bad kids: "You are judged by the company you keep." Meaning if he's known to back-talk teachers and smash windows, even though I don't do that, I'll be thought of as a kid who back-talks and smashes windows. (Not that I listened, at the time,)
So... this Paladin and the rest of the party hung out with the murderer for a month? I say that comes out at trial, and they find themselves arrested as co-conspirators. Now they are in the position of having to also defend themselves against the sham trial. Might make them think a little harder about leaving someone to an unfair justice system, plus give them a reason to break out (and take their buddy with them).
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree. The DM's role shouldn't be to punish players. Characters suffering the logical consequences of their actions yes, should happen, and is not a punishment. But punishing players -- the DM shouldn't have to be like the school principal keeping you after class. If you're doing that as DM, something is very wrong.
There's a part of me that would be quite tempted to have the paladin captured and charged with aiding and abetting a fugitive...since he adventured with the fugitive after all.
If you did that, you'd have to punish the others, and then everyone would be angry at you. Not only the player that you got executed while he wasn't even at the table, but also your other three players who were punished for not saving the player, even though you put the player in the situation in the first place, without their consent.
The others who abandoned their friend to lose his character for the crime of not being able to make a session? I'm completely OK with that. They probably need to be punished for it.
EDIT: The DMs in a bad place now, because his players knowingly did him dirty. What exactly do they think the consequences are for their actions? They don't pay for them, they left the guy would couldn't make a session to lose his character and start over from scratch. That's not good RP, that's being a bad player at the table. So, I'd have exactly zero sympathy for them to end up in jail and lose their characters to think about the consequences of intentionally derailing things.
If the DM just lets it RP out, the player's character gets executed. Now what? He's punished and loses a character, because he had zero player agency, and his "friends" refused to get on the choo-choo a bit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Woah Woah Woah. Couldn’t the paladin have just convinced the party to instead of killing the knights, to knock them out instead of wanting the party to not do the mission. I mean knocking out enemies is literally a rule in the PHB?
Woah Woah Woah. Couldn’t the paladin have just convinced the party to instead of killing the knights, to knock them out instead of wanting the party to not do the mission. I mean knocking out enemies is literally a rule in the PHB?
Yes, he could have. That's part of why I am hostile towards the party. They could have made some choices that didn't screw their DM and teammate, and they quite willingly didn't take those options.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You could go with a third party that jumps the knights as they are transporting the prisoner PC. He escapes in the process. Then you can leave it up to the player if their character would return to the party after that betrayal, or go their own way. If they return, there’s some good RP fodder, if they don’t, you’ve got a recurring villain bent on revenge. And in either case, make the third party significant. If you already have a group that can fit the bill, use them. Otherwise, Maybe they were old allies of the PC, maybe they had it out for the knights for their own reasons, but have them come back in at some point to make them more of an actual entity in the world instead of a one-off plot device.
Definitely prioritize the needs of the "condemned" player, and talk to them outside the game. Ask them how they want to handle it. You can run a solo escape, or just handwave it if you have to.
My take on players is "be creative, surprise me, throw me off my game, that's totally cool, but if you're gonna try to wreck your friend's fun, Uh-uh, we're not doing that."
Thankfully the player that was absent and had his character abducted DMs our Thursday night session, I do Saturday, and was fine with being a side quest for a session for the sake of giving the others something interesting to do in his absence.
He probably didn't expect to get ditched however!
So what I've got thus far is, of COURSE he doesn't lose the character because of shenanigans on the part of other players. Pre-session, if there's time, we'll run through the narrative of his escape without necessarily having to roll it all out (pending his approval of course):
His cell is being watched by one of the original guards from Nightstone who recognised him. PC is lvl 6 so a guard is a quick kill, once he liberates himself and deprives said guard of his bow.
Once he escapes the tower (plenty of bedsheets for a rope as a viable alternative to combat) he hits the forest with the knights in pursuit. After a while he hits a clearing where a wayward hill giant is shivering with cold and yelling at two ogres to fetch him firewood. The knights stumble in after him and are set upon by the ogres. The hill giant, in a haze of cold and hunger induced rage begins ripping through the woods in the wake of the PC.
After a chase through the woods, PC bursts into a hunting ground swarming with giant elk that the other party members are currently trying to back carefully away from (where they ended the last session). The giant crests the hill after him, roaring incomprehensible obscenities. Chaos ensues! Roll initiative! Paladin gets the first rock to the face! Cue handwaving!
Edit: Thanks for all the excellent suggestions and the thought that went into them!
How is the paladin and the rest of the party going to react to him killing a guard and breaking out of jail? Is the player/character going to have hard feelings towards the party? I could see the character potentially not knowing, but is the player OK with it? What kind of fallout will there be from the escape?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
How is the paladin and the rest of the party going to react to him killing a guard and breaking out of jail? Is the player/character going to have hard feelings towards the party? I could see the character potentially not knowing, but is the player OK with it? What kind of fallout will there be from the escape?
The paladin ain't me, but the way I'd see it is "Well... I mean, I didn't do it, so my conscience is clear."
Of course, I'm scum, definitely not paladin material. So I'm not the best example.
I'm not either. I look at paladins and I want to like them...and just don't. *shrug*
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Paladins are great, don't get me wrong. Just not classic paladins. I prefer it when oaths are guidelines, and not binding(which is why I make it that way in basically all my worlds).
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"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
Paladins are great, don't get me wrong. Just not classic paladins. I prefer it when oaths are guidelines, and not binding(which is why I make it that way in basically all my worlds).
Mechanically paladins are awesome. It's the theme about them that I don't like. As you say, it has a contrainsted feel. there's nothing /wrong/ with them, they are just not my cup of tea.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm not either. I look at paladins and I want to like them...and just don't. *shrug*
That’s how I feel about Druids.
I dislike druids too. I love everything about them except shape shift, and that's a bit too core to the class to just ignore. I could probably play a dreams druid if I /had/ to but I'd rather play a cleric. There are so many classes that /nearly/ get there for me and just fall a little short. Most of them I could probably come up with something I'd play, such as a dreams druid. I think the only class that's not really my cup of tea that I'd generally just say, yeah not playing that is the monk. Most classes I can find redeeming value in that interests me. The monk has nothing at all that I like except as a 1 level dip to make a staff or spear queue on dex instead of str. I'd probably consider a monk1|rangerX, but a pure monk? zero interest.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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If you did that, you'd have to punish the others, and then everyone would be angry at you. Not only the player that you got executed while he wasn't even at the table, but also your other three players who were punished for not saving the player, even though you put the player in the situation in the first place, without their consent.
"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
What about this?
Yes, the trial is a sham, but the entire point is to coerce the party into acting against one of the Kong’s rivals. “Force” them to agree to do X, whatever X is. Once they agree, their fellow is conditionally released. Once their party is whole again they find themselves embroiled in a plot among multiple factions all vying by proxy for dominance over some odd, all but inconsequential piece of “power” that is merely one front in a “cold civil war.”
Hunh, yeah? Wadaya think?
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Could be interesting. Could also be a great setup that could be tied into the overarching story of SKT with one of the parties involved being the BBEG of that story. It would fit within the scope of that story, let it play out in the course of that story while setting some groundwork to continue after SKT is done. One of the normal factions could be the one that rescues the PC and brings the party into play in "the greater scheme" of things happening. If it happened before going to Triboar or one of the other locations, it's not even a disruption per se, just an added storyline from a backstory.
Intriguing intrigue.
During the party's visit to the keep in Nightstone, one of the guards recognised my party member as the person responsible for killing Lord Nandar and called him out in front of the other members. For the record, the player chose to add that to his backstory himself, knowing it could come back to haunt him.
And yes, the paladin was happy to travel with him for over an in-game month without issue. We were also missing another player that time, but the two remaining players went along with it.
Reminds me of an old saying my mother used to have when I was hanging around with one of the bad kids: "You are judged by the company you keep." Meaning if he's known to back-talk teachers and smash windows, even though I don't do that, I'll be thought of as a kid who back-talks and smashes windows. (Not that I listened, at the time,)
So... this Paladin and the rest of the party hung out with the murderer for a month? I say that comes out at trial, and they find themselves arrested as co-conspirators. Now they are in the position of having to also defend themselves against the sham trial. Might make them think a little harder about leaving someone to an unfair justice system, plus give them a reason to break out (and take their buddy with them).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
"Goat-screw" 🤣
To be honest, they totally derailed what was supposed to be a simple one-shot side quest, but the philosophical moral wrangling was fantastic!
The others who abandoned their friend to lose his character for the crime of not being able to make a session? I'm completely OK with that. They probably need to be punished for it.
EDIT: The DMs in a bad place now, because his players knowingly did him dirty. What exactly do they think the consequences are for their actions? They don't pay for them, they left the guy would couldn't make a session to lose his character and start over from scratch. That's not good RP, that's being a bad player at the table. So, I'd have exactly zero sympathy for them to end up in jail and lose their characters to think about the consequences of intentionally derailing things.
If the DM just lets it RP out, the player's character gets executed. Now what? He's punished and loses a character, because he had zero player agency, and his "friends" refused to get on the choo-choo a bit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Woah Woah Woah. Couldn’t the paladin have just convinced the party to instead of killing the knights, to knock them out instead of wanting the party to not do the mission. I mean knocking out enemies is literally a rule in the PHB?
Yes, he could have. That's part of why I am hostile towards the party. They could have made some choices that didn't screw their DM and teammate, and they quite willingly didn't take those options.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You could go with a third party that jumps the knights as they are transporting the prisoner PC. He escapes in the process. Then you can leave it up to the player if their character would return to the party after that betrayal, or go their own way.
If they return, there’s some good RP fodder, if they don’t, you’ve got a recurring villain bent on revenge.
And in either case, make the third party significant. If you already have a group that can fit the bill, use them. Otherwise, Maybe they were old allies of the PC, maybe they had it out for the knights for their own reasons, but have them come back in at some point to make them more of an actual entity in the world instead of a one-off plot device.
DMing in a nutshell.
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Definitely prioritize the needs of the "condemned" player, and talk to them outside the game. Ask them how they want to handle it. You can run a solo escape, or just handwave it if you have to.
My take on players is "be creative, surprise me, throw me off my game, that's totally cool, but if you're gonna try to wreck your friend's fun, Uh-uh, we're not doing that."
Or as one of my players says, "PvP is off!"
Thankfully the player that was absent and had his character abducted DMs our Thursday night session, I do Saturday, and was fine with being a side quest for a session for the sake of giving the others something interesting to do in his absence.
He probably didn't expect to get ditched however!
So what I've got thus far is, of COURSE he doesn't lose the character because of shenanigans on the part of other players. Pre-session, if there's time, we'll run through the narrative of his escape without necessarily having to roll it all out (pending his approval of course):
His cell is being watched by one of the original guards from Nightstone who recognised him. PC is lvl 6 so a guard is a quick kill, once he liberates himself and deprives said guard of his bow.
Once he escapes the tower (plenty of bedsheets for a rope as a viable alternative to combat) he hits the forest with the knights in pursuit. After a while he hits a clearing where a wayward hill giant is shivering with cold and yelling at two ogres to fetch him firewood. The knights stumble in after him and are set upon by the ogres. The hill giant, in a haze of cold and hunger induced rage begins ripping through the woods in the wake of the PC.
After a chase through the woods, PC bursts into a hunting ground swarming with giant elk that the other party members are currently trying to back carefully away from (where they ended the last session). The giant crests the hill after him, roaring incomprehensible obscenities. Chaos ensues! Roll initiative! Paladin gets the first rock to the face! Cue handwaving!
Edit: Thanks for all the excellent suggestions and the thought that went into them!
How is the paladin and the rest of the party going to react to him killing a guard and breaking out of jail? Is the player/character going to have hard feelings towards the party? I could see the character potentially not knowing, but is the player OK with it? What kind of fallout will there be from the escape?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The paladin ain't me, but the way I'd see it is "Well... I mean, I didn't do it, so my conscience is clear."
Of course, I'm scum, definitely not paladin material. So I'm not the best example.
"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
I'm not either. I look at paladins and I want to like them...and just don't. *shrug*
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Paladins are great, don't get me wrong. Just not classic paladins. I prefer it when oaths are guidelines, and not binding(which is why I make it that way in basically all my worlds).
"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
That’s how I feel about Druids.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Mechanically paladins are awesome. It's the theme about them that I don't like. As you say, it has a contrainsted feel. there's nothing /wrong/ with them, they are just not my cup of tea.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I dislike druids too. I love everything about them except shape shift, and that's a bit too core to the class to just ignore. I could probably play a dreams druid if I /had/ to but I'd rather play a cleric. There are so many classes that /nearly/ get there for me and just fall a little short. Most of them I could probably come up with something I'd play, such as a dreams druid. I think the only class that's not really my cup of tea that I'd generally just say, yeah not playing that is the monk. Most classes I can find redeeming value in that interests me. The monk has nothing at all that I like except as a 1 level dip to make a staff or spear queue on dex instead of str. I'd probably consider a monk1|rangerX, but a pure monk? zero interest.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha