ok so i have a player in my game who is building some crazy ac and is going to become monstrous what are some ways i can tone down/challenge him without felling like Im just bullying his character?
edit: thank you all for the great idea i will be sure to implement some of these in my game to spice thing up a bit
It depends on how specifically their AC is so crazy high. One of my favorite options for people that have crazy ac from mundane equipment is to introduce monsters that erode equipment so the more its used against the creature the less effective it is, things like Black Ooze. If they are using magical defense spells, then adding some natural wild-magic can be fun.
Oh, and saving throws totally bypass AC. Most AOE effects are saving throw biased, so having creatures like that.
If they are purposefully building something with incredible AC, and that is a problem for you perhaps having a conversation with them about wanting to keep the party balanced or having them act as a tank? If they get too far ahead of the party it might be worth having them make a different character. I sucks to have conversations like that but sometimes its necessary.
Use a huge number of attacks, with a low chance to hit, but they do a lot of damage or disable you.
One technique is a pack of wolves with pact tactics. Get 8 wolves attacking you, all with advantage, and that is 16 chances to get a natural 20. Lions do it too, with a low chance of Pouncing you down to prone.
I dont know about this one. If you have 8 creatures all attacking a single character, that seems really targeted to me as well as really bogging down combat in general. I do like the idea of creatures that disable things. Effects like stuns, fear, grapples or Spells like slow, enlarge/reduce and confusion can really mess with any character, including high AC characters.
Use effects and spells that require saving throws or ability check contests instead of AC.
Use environmental effects that ignore AC (Fall Damage, Acid Pits, Lava Rivers, Difficult Terrain, Thorny Bushes, Wind and other effects that move them around).
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
It's pretty easy to get pretty high AC. E.g. level 1 Warforged Fighter in chain mail armor, with a shield, and defense fighting style already gets you to 20. This doesn't require any special min-maxing other than deciding "hey I want to have high AC. So I'm going to pick a race that gives an AC bonus, play Fighter and take all the defensive bonuses."
Even that AC is low enough that appropriately leveled enemies are going to get some hits in. Starting enemies can easily have bonuses of, say, +4 or so - so they'll hit a quarter of the time. It's not nothing. So just treating the guy as a tank and hitting him a bunch of times will probably get him in some danger.
Enemies that make him do saving throws are also going to be effective.
And of course if enemies just can't hit him, they can go around him and attack the rest of the party.
(You can go a lot further at higher levels easily - get +2 more by upgrading armor from chain to splint and then plate, take Eldritch Knight and get Shield spell. But still.)
...but, a question. Why do you think that this particular player building a high-AC character is so special that you need to especially counter him? I'd usually recommend that, as a DM, you throw a variety of challenges at the party - sometimes one boss enemy and sometimes a bunch of small ones, sometimes enemies that just hit for damage and sometimes ones that require various saving throws, some with high AC and some with low AC and gobs of HP, sometime smart and sometimes dumb... so yeah, sometimes a high-AC guy is just what you need, he'll stand in the front and never be hit and feel awesome. And sometimes the high AC just won't matter, because what's relevant is saving throws or crowd control or something else. So why do you think that a player making a high-AC character is a problem that you're asking for specific advice about? It just seems weird to ask "hey, my player wants to do something cool! What should I do as DM to negate everything he's trying to do?"
its not that i don't want his character to shine im just looking for ideas to pull out if it does in fact become a problem (ie the other players feel overshadowed) or if all of my encounters lose all of there danger. for context we are referring to a character that the party is trying to make have a ac over 35 just passively and im going to let them do it but i want a few options for challenging encounters that make the party think.
Make use of area-of-effect or damage-over-time effects. You can also homebrew ways of getting around armor, like trying to electrocute the high AC character would be able to ignore AC due to the armor conducting the attack rather than protecting from it
I can see that Ac as a 28 assuming they are a warforged with a +3 Plate armor and shield with the soul of the forge and defense fighting style, but having two plus 3 magical items is totally something that is within your control. Assuming that the only magical armor that they get is from player characters assuming they are level 10, the best Ac they can have as a permanent thing is 25. Which if no other magical items are introduced, that's the Ac that character would stay at until level 20. Those seem like totally normal numbers to me, considering a lot of creatures that I send after my party of level 10's have a +8-12 to hit, that character is still going to be getting hit.
First off, let them do it. If a player is willing to specialize so deeply into one aspect then by all means let them. Also have encounters here and there that really let them shine with it. A random encounter with 20 easy kills that the character just destroys solo without breaking a sweat, make them feel heroic. But for the BBEG fights or main story type things make sure you have casters with shatter, fireball, heat metal, slow, etc. that will challenge the character.
Too often I see DM's try to nerf down a player that wants their character to be a certain way that may be super OP in one area. If they want to put in the time and effort to super specialize one thing then let them shine at it and don't discourage it. Just prepare countermeasures so everything isn't a cake walk.
My personal opinion is that conditions can be your best friend here. I am currently running a game full of super tanks, high AC characters, including a barbarian who rolled silly-good ability scores. Then they ran into creatures who can use the charmed condition to their advantage to turn players on one another (vampires, certain devils, etc.). When a party has to start thinking about the possibility that one of their heavy hitters with high AC might be turned on them, it drastically alters their planning.
The nigh-unkillable barbarian is still a rock star for most combat encounters, but introducing threats besides just damaging the party to death really upped the intrigue of their combats.
AC of 35 just isn't possible without a ton of magic items and even then I'm not sure it is possible without homebrewing something.
+3 plate armor and +3 shield would be 26 but you have to give them two legendary magical items (that you probably shouldn't) to make it even possible.
Add in a ring of protection+cloak of protection+ defensive fighting style + another +1 for whatever and you are up to AC30.
Shield spell could push that to 35 on some turns. Shield of faith is also another possible +2, haste could be another +2 so with spells you can get higher than 30 - but even 30 requires significant magic items.
So I would start off by checking their math.
---
However, there are several tactics that intelligent opponents would naturally use against high AC targets ..
1) Intelligent opponents will realize that they can't hit this target so they go after everyone else in the party first. It may take a couple rounds of combat for them to figure it out but they won't keep trying to hit a target that seems to them impossible to hit. If the opponents have met the party before or if they see the fighter/cleric in plate armor whom they can't hit then they WILL switch targets to someone they can hit.
2) Restraining attacks, grapples ... these are not dependent on AC and if an opponent can lock down the character and give them disadvantage on their attacks and advantage for adjacent attackers then the AC isn't worth as much.
3) Use spell casters. The cleric/fighter will have only one of con and wisdom saves unless they take the resilient feat at some point. AoE damage is mostly dex saves. Wis save effects can often lock down the character or even force them to attack their own party. (This is often a good choice for high level barbarian or fighter targets that have not invested in resilient wis - their chances of passing a DC 17 wis save for dominate person are typically not that great). Similarly, banishment might be able to take the character out of the combat entirely for a while. Keep in mind that these are all things an intelligent opponent would do when faced with a target that they are having trouble hitting.
Anyway, good tactics and spell casting are typically good approaches when encountering high AC targets - the same tactics players would use in an equivalent situation.
First off, let them do it. If a player is willing to specialize so deeply into one aspect then by all means let them. Also have encounters here and there that really let them shine with it. A random encounter with 20 easy kills that the character just destroys solo without breaking a sweat, make them feel heroic. But for the BBEG fights or main story type things make sure you have casters with shatter, fireball, heat metal, slow, etc. that will challenge the character.
Too often I see DM's try to nerf down a player that wants their character to be a certain way that may be super OP in one area. If they want to put in the time and effort to super specialize one thing then let them shine at it and don't discourage it. Just prepare countermeasures so everything isn't a cake walk.
This completely!
As a player, there's nothing worse than a DM completely removing a niche you've made for your character.
I think its perfectly understandable to have encounters planned that will challenge the party by countering their abilities (ESPECIALLY if the enemy knows about the party and has planned to take them down). But to have EVERY encounter feel like its custom tailored to counter certain abilities or features starts to feel reeeeealy bad for the player.
In one party I played in, we had a sorcerer who's main strategy was to shut down enemies via whatever she could. (Her favorite method was twinning hold monster). Even in character, the party RP'ed out training this strategy, plus we were a well known professional team of adventurers for hire so we even IN GAME had reason for very specialized/tactical combat approach. BUUUUUT the DM got tired of the combo sorcerer paralyzes + rogue sneak attack crits + death cleric nukes that he made EVERY enemy we fought immune to paralysis. It got so frustrating to the point where the sorcerer actually switched out hold monster after a level or two
Moral of the story: Let party members specialize (as long as they're not cheating or anything), challenge them with difficult encounters, but don't forget they made that character because they wanted to play a certain way!
Moral of the story: Let party members specialize (as long as they're not cheating or anything), challenge them with difficult encounters, but don't forget they made that character because they wanted to play a certain way!
Exactly. I always say it's not the DM's game, it's not the players game, but it's our game. Both players and DM should be happy.
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"Semper in faecibus sumus, solum profundum variat" playing since 1986
ok so i have a player in my game who is building some crazy ac and is going to become monstrous what are some ways i can tone down/challenge him without felling like Im just bullying his character?
edit: thank you all for the great idea i will be sure to implement some of these in my game to spice thing up a bit
It depends on how specifically their AC is so crazy high. One of my favorite options for people that have crazy ac from mundane equipment is to introduce monsters that erode equipment so the more its used against the creature the less effective it is, things like Black Ooze. If they are using magical defense spells, then adding some natural wild-magic can be fun.
Oh, and saving throws totally bypass AC. Most AOE effects are saving throw biased, so having creatures like that.
If they are purposefully building something with incredible AC, and that is a problem for you perhaps having a conversation with them about wanting to keep the party balanced or having them act as a tank? If they get too far ahead of the party it might be worth having them make a different character. I sucks to have conversations like that but sometimes its necessary.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
These might not qualify as "not bullying the player" because that depends on your table's dynamics, but
Heat Metal is pretty tough on a player in plate armor.
Players like this often dump Dex. Give them a slippery floor or some vines to walk through.
Rust monsters don't get enough air time, in many games.
Anything that attacks as a vapor such as spores or a swarm of insects.
Spells still have the same DC no matter what amount of armor you're wearing.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Use a huge number of attacks, with a low chance to hit, but they do a lot of damage or disable you.
One technique is a pack of wolves with pact tactics. Get 8 wolves attacking you, all with advantage, and that is 16 chances to get a natural 20. Lions do it too, with a low chance of Pouncing you down to prone.
I dont know about this one. If you have 8 creatures all attacking a single character, that seems really targeted to me as well as really bogging down combat in general. I do like the idea of creatures that disable things. Effects like stuns, fear, grapples or Spells like slow, enlarge/reduce and confusion can really mess with any character, including high AC characters.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Use effects and spells that require saving throws or ability check contests instead of AC.
Use environmental effects that ignore AC (Fall Damage, Acid Pits, Lava Rivers, Difficult Terrain, Thorny Bushes, Wind and other effects that move them around).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's pretty easy to get pretty high AC. E.g. level 1 Warforged Fighter in chain mail armor, with a shield, and defense fighting style already gets you to 20. This doesn't require any special min-maxing other than deciding "hey I want to have high AC. So I'm going to pick a race that gives an AC bonus, play Fighter and take all the defensive bonuses."
Even that AC is low enough that appropriately leveled enemies are going to get some hits in. Starting enemies can easily have bonuses of, say, +4 or so - so they'll hit a quarter of the time. It's not nothing. So just treating the guy as a tank and hitting him a bunch of times will probably get him in some danger.
Enemies that make him do saving throws are also going to be effective.
And of course if enemies just can't hit him, they can go around him and attack the rest of the party.
(You can go a lot further at higher levels easily - get +2 more by upgrading armor from chain to splint and then plate, take Eldritch Knight and get Shield spell. But still.)
...but, a question. Why do you think that this particular player building a high-AC character is so special that you need to especially counter him? I'd usually recommend that, as a DM, you throw a variety of challenges at the party - sometimes one boss enemy and sometimes a bunch of small ones, sometimes enemies that just hit for damage and sometimes ones that require various saving throws, some with high AC and some with low AC and gobs of HP, sometime smart and sometimes dumb... so yeah, sometimes a high-AC guy is just what you need, he'll stand in the front and never be hit and feel awesome. And sometimes the high AC just won't matter, because what's relevant is saving throws or crowd control or something else. So why do you think that a player making a high-AC character is a problem that you're asking for specific advice about? It just seems weird to ask "hey, my player wants to do something cool! What should I do as DM to negate everything he's trying to do?"
its not that i don't want his character to shine im just looking for ideas to pull out if it does in fact become a problem (ie the other players feel overshadowed) or if all of my encounters lose all of there danger. for context we are referring to a character that the party is trying to make have a ac over 35 just passively and im going to let them do it but i want a few options for challenging encounters that make the party think.
I'm curious how they plan on getting their AC above 35 passively.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
forge domain cleric/ cavalier fighter multi class with a artificer in the party. also that number might be closer to 25-30 but 35 is there goal
Make use of area-of-effect or damage-over-time effects. You can also homebrew ways of getting around armor, like trying to electrocute the high AC character would be able to ignore AC due to the armor conducting the attack rather than protecting from it
I can see that Ac as a 28 assuming they are a warforged with a +3 Plate armor and shield with the soul of the forge and defense fighting style, but having two plus 3 magical items is totally something that is within your control. Assuming that the only magical armor that they get is from player characters assuming they are level 10, the best Ac they can have as a permanent thing is 25. Which if no other magical items are introduced, that's the Ac that character would stay at until level 20. Those seem like totally normal numbers to me, considering a lot of creatures that I send after my party of level 10's have a +8-12 to hit, that character is still going to be getting hit.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Bro just throw a train at them
Without like 50 magic items, a passive of 35 is not possible. However, I can see a bladesinger reaching it...
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
First off, let them do it. If a player is willing to specialize so deeply into one aspect then by all means let them. Also have encounters here and there that really let them shine with it. A random encounter with 20 easy kills that the character just destroys solo without breaking a sweat, make them feel heroic. But for the BBEG fights or main story type things make sure you have casters with shatter, fireball, heat metal, slow, etc. that will challenge the character.
Too often I see DM's try to nerf down a player that wants their character to be a certain way that may be super OP in one area. If they want to put in the time and effort to super specialize one thing then let them shine at it and don't discourage it. Just prepare countermeasures so everything isn't a cake walk.
My personal opinion is that conditions can be your best friend here. I am currently running a game full of super tanks, high AC characters, including a barbarian who rolled silly-good ability scores. Then they ran into creatures who can use the charmed condition to their advantage to turn players on one another (vampires, certain devils, etc.). When a party has to start thinking about the possibility that one of their heavy hitters with high AC might be turned on them, it drastically alters their planning.
The nigh-unkillable barbarian is still a rock star for most combat encounters, but introducing threats besides just damaging the party to death really upped the intrigue of their combats.
AC of 35 just isn't possible without a ton of magic items and even then I'm not sure it is possible without homebrewing something.
+3 plate armor and +3 shield would be 26 but you have to give them two legendary magical items (that you probably shouldn't) to make it even possible.
Add in a ring of protection+cloak of protection+ defensive fighting style + another +1 for whatever and you are up to AC30.
Shield spell could push that to 35 on some turns. Shield of faith is also another possible +2, haste could be another +2 so with spells you can get higher than 30 - but even 30 requires significant magic items.
So I would start off by checking their math.
---
However, there are several tactics that intelligent opponents would naturally use against high AC targets ..
1) Intelligent opponents will realize that they can't hit this target so they go after everyone else in the party first. It may take a couple rounds of combat for them to figure it out but they won't keep trying to hit a target that seems to them impossible to hit. If the opponents have met the party before or if they see the fighter/cleric in plate armor whom they can't hit then they WILL switch targets to someone they can hit.
2) Restraining attacks, grapples ... these are not dependent on AC and if an opponent can lock down the character and give them disadvantage on their attacks and advantage for adjacent attackers then the AC isn't worth as much.
3) Use spell casters. The cleric/fighter will have only one of con and wisdom saves unless they take the resilient feat at some point. AoE damage is mostly dex saves. Wis save effects can often lock down the character or even force them to attack their own party. (This is often a good choice for high level barbarian or fighter targets that have not invested in resilient wis - their chances of passing a DC 17 wis save for dominate person are typically not that great). Similarly, banishment might be able to take the character out of the combat entirely for a while. Keep in mind that these are all things an intelligent opponent would do when faced with a target that they are having trouble hitting.
Anyway, good tactics and spell casting are typically good approaches when encountering high AC targets - the same tactics players would use in an equivalent situation.
This completely!
As a player, there's nothing worse than a DM completely removing a niche you've made for your character.
I think its perfectly understandable to have encounters planned that will challenge the party by countering their abilities (ESPECIALLY if the enemy knows about the party and has planned to take them down). But to have EVERY encounter feel like its custom tailored to counter certain abilities or features starts to feel reeeeealy bad for the player.
In one party I played in, we had a sorcerer who's main strategy was to shut down enemies via whatever she could. (Her favorite method was twinning hold monster). Even in character, the party RP'ed out training this strategy, plus we were a well known professional team of adventurers for hire so we even IN GAME had reason for very specialized/tactical combat approach. BUUUUUT the DM got tired of the combo sorcerer paralyzes + rogue sneak attack crits + death cleric nukes that he made EVERY enemy we fought immune to paralysis. It got so frustrating to the point where the sorcerer actually switched out hold monster after a level or two
Moral of the story: Let party members specialize (as long as they're not cheating or anything), challenge them with difficult encounters, but don't forget they made that character because they wanted to play a certain way!
Exactly. I always say it's not the DM's game, it's not the players game, but it's our game. Both players and DM should be happy.
playing since 1986
High AC doesn't help against a RP encounter.