Hi. I’m going to be DMing a one shot for 6 players at lvl5 with mixed experienced players.(3/6 are quite good at optimizing damage in combat) I’m really interested in throwing in a Adult copper dragon as the final boss and am really just looking for some opinions on if this would be too difficult for the party or not?
Thanks for the feedback friend! In my experience the CR don't always ad up to the difficulty (ofc not in every case), and because the copper dragon has a line breath instead of a cone I was considering ignoring the CR and bringing it. Perhaps just tweaking the numbers of it a bit or maybe going with a copper dragon instead of an adult one would be the solution?
Based on my experience I think a baseline Young Copper Dragon is going to get stomped against 6 level 5 PCs. So I think it depends on how beat up the party will be by the time they get to the boss fight. If they have a chance to short rest and have most of their spell slots for casters, and they can coordinate even moderately - I think it'll likely be a pretty one sided fight (assuming said dragon doesn't surprise and immediately crit / or nuke 1-2 PCs out of the fight). If you think they'll be pretty depleted in terms of resources then a baseline copper might be a good challenge.
At level 5 martial classes get extra attack, spell casters have 3rd level spells, so assuming they can keep it in range they can probably nuke through 119 HP without too much difficulty. In terms of action economy you've got 3 attacks per round (dragon) against somewhere between 6 and 12 for the PCs. So I would at the least up its health a bit. You could also try giving it 1 legendary resistance.
Id say, let them fight the harder thing. If they die, so what? its a one shot. As long as you as the DM make the combat enjoyable with your descriptions and make sure the players are receiving a good amount of feedback an the state of the monster (if its looks exhausted because its been exerting itself) then it can still be an enjoyable experience.
Don't be afraid to really push it when balancing encounters for a one shot. CR is geared towards the 6-8 encounter adventuring day, which you're for sure not going to have time for in a one shot unless it's just straight gladiatorial combat the whole time, so feel free to throw things at your players that you're not entirely sure how they're gonna beat. Opens the players up to creative playing and problem solving, and it's a one-shot, so unless it's grossly unfair, people shouldn't mind too much if death is a little more on the table than normal.
Id say, let them fight the harder thing. If they die, so what? its a one shot. As long as you as the DM make the combat enjoyable with your descriptions and make sure the players are receiving a good amount of feedback an the state of the monster (if its looks exhausted because its been exerting itself) then it can still be an enjoyable experience.
Seconded. Let them face off against something that seems too strong. If everyone dies at the end, well... what's more Dungeons and Dragons than dying to a dragon?
Haha, I like how you ended that sentence! I did run a oneshot with these guys before where the big boss was a vampire and they basically giga-slaughtered him who has similar stats to a dragon in terms of AC and HP.(though they were one player less that time) I think I'm gonna go with an adult copper dragon but reduce the bonus to attacks from 11 to 10 and reduce breath dice from 12d8 to 10d8 adjusting HP as proper. Thanks for the help guys! Really appreciate the responses and feedback! :)
If you use a young copper dragon instead, just never say or describe it as a young dragon, make it the size of an adult and never even speak of it lol.
if you use an adult copper dragon you could have “win conditions” (Sorta) around the battlefield (depending on the environment of course) Things like: A magic ballista loaded with a single shot, if it hits it does a ton of damage. A treasure hoard, if they search through it mid battle could find a powerful spell scroll or other powerful consumable items depending on their roll that could swing the battle in their favor IF they work. I’m a huge advocate of having a dynamic natural environment, typically I use the natural environment to make combat more difficult, but you could try to make it so the natural environment is helpful for the players.
If you used the adult dragon, it would be fine to warn the party beforehand of the difficulty and very real possibility of death.
edit: didn’t see your comment above mine. Good luck!
Level 5 PCs, assuming point build and non-rolled hit points, typically have hp ranging from a low of 27 (d6s = 6 + 4x4, Con 12) to a high of 55 (d12s = 12 +7x4, Con 16) with the vast majority being between 32 and 44. This basically means 'gets oneshotted by a failed breath save, a successful save means one melee attack will take it down'. AC will generally be between 16 and 20.
A typical fight might have the dragon breathe on its first turn, and mostly use its legendary actions for tail swipes. It is usually possible to hit two characters with a line, sometimes possible to hit three, and while its tail attack is not likely to defeat PCs by itself, it can certainly finish off people already weakened by its breath. Thus, a reasonably average outcome is two PCs down in round 1, with three PCs as an outside chance. In subsequent rounds it needs to spend about 1.5 attacks for whack-a-mole on people who have been dropped and brought back up and then with its remaining attacks probably drops another PC. If there is more than one person with healing word, it might be better off just using whacking downed targets (as they're incapacitated, any hit is a crit and will result in two failed death saves); either way, figure somewhere on the order of four rounds to finish off the party.
The party, meanwhile, will be trying to finish off the dragon. The dragon's saves are high enough that CC is pretty marginal, so figure just piling on with damage. With six PCs attacking, 100 damage in round is plausible enough, declining in subsequent rounds, so the dragon might well go down in three rounds.
Eh... I can see the PCs winning. I can also see them getting killed. That's fair enough for a oneshot adventure.
Level 5 PCs, assuming point build and non-rolled hit points, typically have hp ranging from a low of 27 (d6s = 6 + 4x4, Con 12) to a high of 55 (d12s = 12 +7x4, Con 16) with the vast majority being between 32 and 44. This basically means 'gets oneshotted by a failed breath save, a successful save means one melee attack will take it down'. AC will generally be between 16 and 20.
A typical fight might have the dragon breathe on its first turn, and mostly use its legendary actions for tail swipes. It is usually possible to hit two characters with a line, sometimes possible to hit three, and while its tail attack is not likely to defeat PCs by itself, it can certainly finish off people already weakened by its breath. Thus, a reasonably average outcome is two PCs down in round 1, with three PCs as an outside chance. In subsequent rounds it needs to spend about 1.5 attacks for whack-a-mole on people who have been dropped and brought back up and then with its remaining attacks probably drops another PC. If there is more than one person with healing word, it might be better off just using whacking downed targets (as they're incapacitated, any hit is a crit and will result in two failed death saves); either way, figure somewhere on the order of four rounds to finish off the party.
The party, meanwhile, will be trying to finish off the dragon. The dragon's saves are high enough that CC is pretty marginal, so figure just piling on with damage. With six PCs attacking, 100 damage in round is plausible enough, declining in subsequent rounds, so the dragon might well go down in three rounds.
Eh... I can see the PCs winning. I can also see them getting killed. That's fair enough for a oneshot adventure.
Thanks for the reply man! I think what you’re saying about 1 PC getting knocked per round indicates that the dragon uses all 3 attacks on the same PC. I pictured a scenario with a frantic dragon throwing claws and teeth on different PCs a round not oneshotting but putting everyone in a state of ‘oh shit I might die’-hp range, which i think is fun for players. I am really considering putting something in her hoard for the PCs to find, (in this scenario a ballista or something similar would be strange) or maybe even PCs killing the dragons eggs might make it throw a tantrum and make it attack recklessly giving PCs advantage on attacks or something like that?
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Hi. I’m going to be DMing a one shot for 6 players at lvl5 with mixed experienced players.(3/6 are quite good at optimizing damage in combat) I’m really interested in throwing in a Adult copper dragon as the final boss and am really just looking for some opinions on if this would be too difficult for the party or not?
Prob'ly. CR 6-8 would be the top for that level
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Thanks for the feedback friend! In my experience the CR don't always ad up to the difficulty (ofc not in every case), and because the copper dragon has a line breath instead of a cone I was considering ignoring the CR and bringing it. Perhaps just tweaking the numbers of it a bit or maybe going with a copper dragon instead of an adult one would be the solution?
Young copper would do
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Based on my experience I think a baseline Young Copper Dragon is going to get stomped against 6 level 5 PCs. So I think it depends on how beat up the party will be by the time they get to the boss fight. If they have a chance to short rest and have most of their spell slots for casters, and they can coordinate even moderately - I think it'll likely be a pretty one sided fight (assuming said dragon doesn't surprise and immediately crit / or nuke 1-2 PCs out of the fight). If you think they'll be pretty depleted in terms of resources then a baseline copper might be a good challenge.
At level 5 martial classes get extra attack, spell casters have 3rd level spells, so assuming they can keep it in range they can probably nuke through 119 HP without too much difficulty. In terms of action economy you've got 3 attacks per round (dragon) against somewhere between 6 and 12 for the PCs. So I would at the least up its health a bit. You could also try giving it 1 legendary resistance.
Id say, let them fight the harder thing. If they die, so what? its a one shot. As long as you as the DM make the combat enjoyable with your descriptions and make sure the players are receiving a good amount of feedback an the state of the monster (if its looks exhausted because its been exerting itself) then it can still be an enjoyable experience.
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Young red dragon possibly? Coppers are good aligned.
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Don't be afraid to really push it when balancing encounters for a one shot. CR is geared towards the 6-8 encounter adventuring day, which you're for sure not going to have time for in a one shot unless it's just straight gladiatorial combat the whole time, so feel free to throw things at your players that you're not entirely sure how they're gonna beat. Opens the players up to creative playing and problem solving, and it's a one-shot, so unless it's grossly unfair, people shouldn't mind too much if death is a little more on the table than normal.
Seconded. Let them face off against something that seems too strong. If everyone dies at the end, well... what's more Dungeons and Dragons than dying to a dragon?
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Haha, I like how you ended that sentence! I did run a oneshot with these guys before where the big boss was a vampire and they basically giga-slaughtered him who has similar stats to a dragon in terms of AC and HP.(though they were one player less that time)
I think I'm gonna go with an adult copper dragon but reduce the bonus to attacks from 11 to 10 and reduce breath dice from 12d8 to 10d8 adjusting HP as proper.
Thanks for the help guys! Really appreciate the responses and feedback! :)
If you use a young copper dragon instead, just never say or describe it as a young dragon, make it the size of an adult and never even speak of it lol.
if you use an adult copper dragon you could have “win conditions” (Sorta) around the battlefield (depending on the environment of course) Things like: A magic ballista loaded with a single shot, if it hits it does a ton of damage. A treasure hoard, if they search through it mid battle could find a powerful spell scroll or other powerful consumable items depending on their roll that could swing the battle in their favor IF they work. I’m a huge advocate of having a dynamic natural environment, typically I use the natural environment to make combat more difficult, but you could try to make it so the natural environment is helpful for the players.
If you used the adult dragon, it would be fine to warn the party beforehand of the difficulty and very real possibility of death.
edit: didn’t see your comment above mine. Good luck!
Hm. Considering a straight-up adult copper.
Level 5 PCs, assuming point build and non-rolled hit points, typically have hp ranging from a low of 27 (d6s = 6 + 4x4, Con 12) to a high of 55 (d12s = 12 +7x4, Con 16) with the vast majority being between 32 and 44. This basically means 'gets oneshotted by a failed breath save, a successful save means one melee attack will take it down'. AC will generally be between 16 and 20.
A typical fight might have the dragon breathe on its first turn, and mostly use its legendary actions for tail swipes. It is usually possible to hit two characters with a line, sometimes possible to hit three, and while its tail attack is not likely to defeat PCs by itself, it can certainly finish off people already weakened by its breath. Thus, a reasonably average outcome is two PCs down in round 1, with three PCs as an outside chance. In subsequent rounds it needs to spend about 1.5 attacks for whack-a-mole on people who have been dropped and brought back up and then with its remaining attacks probably drops another PC. If there is more than one person with healing word, it might be better off just using whacking downed targets (as they're incapacitated, any hit is a crit and will result in two failed death saves); either way, figure somewhere on the order of four rounds to finish off the party.
The party, meanwhile, will be trying to finish off the dragon. The dragon's saves are high enough that CC is pretty marginal, so figure just piling on with damage. With six PCs attacking, 100 damage in round is plausible enough, declining in subsequent rounds, so the dragon might well go down in three rounds.
Eh... I can see the PCs winning. I can also see them getting killed. That's fair enough for a oneshot adventure.
Thanks for the reply man! I think what you’re saying about 1 PC getting knocked per round indicates that the dragon uses all 3 attacks on the same PC. I pictured a scenario with a frantic dragon throwing claws and teeth on different PCs a round not oneshotting but putting everyone in a state of ‘oh shit I might die’-hp range, which i think is fun for players. I am really considering putting something in her hoard for the PCs to find, (in this scenario a ballista or something similar would be strange) or maybe even PCs killing the dragons eggs might make it throw a tantrum and make it attack recklessly giving PCs advantage on attacks or something like that?