Setup: The party is in the middle of combat against a White Dragon Wyrmling. The Ranger decides he wants to determine would his player "know that white dragons tend to be even more feral and primal in nature than other chromatic dragons?".
Question: His goal is trying to reason with the dragon, even though they are in the middle of combat. I do not want to take the agency away from his turn so I thought I'd allow a Nature check. What I would like the DM point of view is would this Ability Check be considered the single free interaction or would it considered as using up the player Action?
I am aware of the following and why I was asking if an ability check such as Nature be considered under this category.
Other Activity on Your Turn
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.
It usually depends on the check. A “doing” check like Perception/Investigation is usually an Action, but a “knowing” check like Nature/History could go either way.
It usually depends on the check. A “doing” check like Perception/Investigation is usually an Action, but a “knowing” check like Nature/History could go either way.
That is where I was at. I know searching was considered a action which to me is taking your attention off of combat. Now a knowledge check seems reasonable thinking it more over that is not really taking attention away from the situation. Hmm....
It usually depends on the check. A “doing” check like Perception/Investigation is usually an Action, but a “knowing” check like Nature/History could go either way.
That is where I was at. I know searching was considered a action which to me is taking your attention off of combat. Now a knowledge check seems reasonable thinking it more over that is not really taking attention away from the situation. Hmm....
Yeah. I mean, if one wants to delude themselves into believing that something resembling “realistic” exists in 5e Ability checks, then it could conceivably come down to the die roll, on a 1-10, they had to really stop and think for a bit so it’s an Action. On an 11+ the knowledge jumped to mind, so Free Action. With modifiers and proficiency, they may very likely still succeed the check with a roll below 11, but this way the degree of success becomes relevant too. But honestly, that just seems needlessly complicated, and the player has a 50/50 shot at loosing their Action so they will likely never do it. Maybe instead is the 1-10 was a Free Action and 11+ was no action?
You could always go with a passive check. I don't think Nature would be correct here though, more like History. You would need to ask yourself, "does it make sense that this character might know about dragons?" A ranger that has taken them as a favored enemy will definitely have a high chance of knowing this, a standard one is much less likely unless they have done a ton of research into them.
To answer the main question, though, using an ability check whilst in combat requires an action unless they have a feature that turns such checks into different actions (like cunning action).
My general way of ruling it is if the check arises from circumstances, it's a free action. If the check arises from character action, it's an action.
Knowledge checks to know about something you've spotted are in the first category.
Also, any checks made purely as a roleplaying aid (such as figuring out what your character knows vs what you know) can be rolled without any input from me as DM.
Just for clarification, the Nature Ability Check that I said would be rolled is repurposed off of Tasha's Research Table in the Parleying section of the book. The table outlines by monster type what of ability check should be used to research about a monster.
Adventurers can research what a creature is likely to desire. The Monster Research table suggests which skills can be used to learn about a creature of a particular type. The DC for a relevant ability check equals 10 + the creature’s challenge rating.
The character has some experience with Dragons but not necessarily the type of dragon he is facing off against. While the DC may be set between 10-15 he still has a chance to recall some of this basic information based on his question.
So far I'm leaning toward allowing these types of "knowledge/brain" checks to fall into the single free action and taking everyone's feedback feels harsh penalizing them using it as a full action.
In this case, it seems to me, that all you are doing is checking to see if the character already knows something relevant about dragons.
They aren't going to stop what they are doing to sit down and think .. "Hmmm, what do I know about dragons?" The character doesn't need to do that, they either know the information or they don't. They aren't researching or looking up or even standing pondering trying to remember.
Here are the questions to ask yourself ...
1) Would the character know anything at all about the different species of dragons? Do they have a relevant skill or back story elements? Did they know a dragon encounter was likely and would the character have tried to acquire rumors and knowledge about dragons through conversations or other encounters?
If the character doesn't know anything about dragons - they fail automatically.
2) If the character might have heard something relevant - do they remember it in the heat of battle?
Make a check - however, this doesn't even take a free action, it doesn't take any action, you are only checking to see if the character remembers something of use.
DM decides on a DC. This is challenging - based on the characters experiences - how likely do you think that the character might have picked up the relevant information "Young White dragons are not smart and are driven mostly by hunger and a strong desire to acquire pretty items".
There are a few ways to resolve this ...
1 - passive knowledge check - likely nature - compare to the DC and just tell the character the information since character ALREADY knows it.
2 - active knowledge check - roll a die to determine whether the character has any relevant knowledge. The DM could decide to apply advantage if the character is the type to acquire and hoard trivia or disadvantage if they find the combat distracting and making it a bit more difficult to remember some obscure dragon fact. Again DM on DC and modifiers.
Depending on the character the DM can also just rule auto-success or auto-failure. The ranger character that pays attention to nature and their opponents, acquires knowledge whenever they can and hoards it against future need could be an auto-success ... a ranger character that likes to hunt and kill things but doesn't pay much attention, just waits for the next target and doesn't really want to know ... could be an auto-failure since even if they had heard something they wouldn't consider it useful and would promptly forget about it. Anything else in between is a die roll.
However, in my opinion, none of this requires any sort of action since all you are trying to resolve is what the character already knows. They aren't taking any specific action (free or otherwise) to determine the knowledge - they either know it or they don't.
P.S. That is how I would play it :) ... I have no idea whether it is RAW or not but I don't think the rules REQUIRE an action or any other specific period of time be allocated if the DM wants a character to make a skill check. (e.g. a character can move during their turn as well as take an action, that movement could require an acrobatics check (running across a beam) or athletics (climbing a rope or wall) that might entail a skill check that does not necessarily use any sort of action.)
In this case, it seems to me, that all you are doing is checking to see if the character already knows something relevant about dragons.
They aren't going to stop what they are doing to sit down and think .. "Hmmm, what do I know about dragons?" The character doesn't need to do that, they either know the information or they don't. They aren't researching or looking up or even standing pondering trying to remember.
Here are the questions to ask yourself ...
1) Would the character know anything at all about the different species of dragons? Do they have a relevant skill or back story elements? Did they know a dragon encounter was likely and would the character have tried to acquire rumors and knowledge about dragons through conversations or other encounters?
If the character doesn't know anything about dragons - they fail automatically.
2) If the character might have heard something relevant - do they remember it in the heat of battle?
Make a check - however, this doesn't even take a free action, it doesn't take any action, you are only checking to see if the character remembers something of use.
DM decides on a DC. This is challenging - based on the characters experiences - how likely do you think that the character might have picked up the relevant information "Young White dragons are not smart and are driven mostly by hunger and a strong desire to acquire pretty items".
There are a few ways to resolve this ...
1 - passive knowledge check - likely nature - compare to the DC and just tell the character the information since character ALREADY knows it.
2 - active knowledge check - roll a die to determine whether the character has any relevant knowledge. The DM could decide to apply advantage if the character is the type to acquire and hoard trivia or disadvantage if they find the combat distracting and making it a bit more difficult to remember some obscure dragon fact. Again DM on DC and modifiers.
Depending on the character the DM can also just rule auto-success or auto-failure. The ranger character that pays attention to nature and their opponents, acquires knowledge whenever they can and hoards it against future need could be an auto-success ... a ranger character that likes to hunt and kill things but doesn't pay much attention, just waits for the next target and doesn't really want to know ... could be an auto-failure since even if they had heard something they wouldn't consider it useful and would promptly forget about it. Anything else in between is a die roll.
However, in my opinion, none of this requires any sort of action since all you are trying to resolve is what the character already knows. They aren't taking any specific action (free or otherwise) to determine the knowledge - they either know it or they don't.
P.S. That is how I would play it :) ... I have no idea whether it is RAW or not but I don't think the rules REQUIRE an action or any other specific period of time be allocated if the DM wants a character to make a skill check. (e.g. a character can move during their turn as well as take an action, that movement could require an acrobatics check (running across a beam) or athletics (climbing a rope or wall) that might entail a skill check that does not necessarily use any sort of action.)
Wow, that is a lot to take in. Fortunately, quite a bit what you said mirrored what I was thinking about how I would handle it so I appreciate the feedback.
Knowing or recalling information about a creature is a passive Intelligence check. The Ranger could apply their Nature proficiency if they have it (or Arcana or History). Studying a creature is an active Intelligence check that would require an Action.
Also, when setting the DC for either check, do consider that dragons are iconic monsters. In most settings, even a commoner would know certain things about dragons and be able to distinguish between the good (metallic) and bad (chromatic) varieties. Take the Forgotten Realms as an example. In that context, knowing that white dragons are feral in nature should be a pretty easy check and potentially an automatic success if the PC is from a northern region.
In this case, it sounds like your Ranger player is trying to do a cool thing (reason with a dragon), and it seems the player already knows this fact about white dragons. I'd say just let him have it so he can try to do the cool thing.
From my point of view, why doesn't the player just act like the dragon might be willing to talk? He says something to the dragon. The dragon responds or he doesn't respond. Meanwhile the players keep fighting? It seems unless the Ranger can get the players to stop fighting, there is nothing to talk about.
Now the Ranger makes a check and learns the dragon is more willing to discuss the situation. More willing than what? If they are actively fighting then what a DC=30 check? If they are willing to pull back a moment then the DC drops to 25, 20? Since they have been fighting, I think it is going to be difficult, but you can set the DC wherever you think it fits.
If the Ranger is talking to the dragon, he isn't talking to the party. The party doesn't know what he knows so seeing him pass his nature skill check shouldn't change their actions until he has talked to them. So he is fighting the dragon along with his mates. He makes a successful nature check. Then the next round what? He stops swinging his sword, steps back and yells to his party, "Guys, I think we could discuss this if you'll agree to stop fighting the dragon, and the dragon agrees to stop fighting us." [That's a lot in 6 second, but let's roll with it] Now your party and the dragon have to respond in initiative order. What do they do? The dragon, being outnumbered might well take a free swipe before the truce take effect, and do your party members have the discipline to hold back not knowing?
So somehow the fight stops. The dragon is going to do something to improve his situation. He is probably going to tell you to move into a less advantageous position to demonstrate your sincerity. Can you take that risk? What happens if a cleric or someone casts a healing spell while things are quieting down? How might the dragon react to this?
So that kinda describes the outcome of the nature check being successful and the party rolls with it. What if the nature check is unsuccessful but the player thinks it was successful? Say the Ranger thinks the dragon is willing, but in reality he is not willing?
What happens if the player thinks the dragon isn't willing to negotiate? Probably just keep fighting, right?
So ...
What if the dragon makes the first move? What if the dragon says "You'll never get anywhere with me unless you lay down your weapons. I've killed the ones that came before you, and this isn't as tough as some of those fights. I'll pick my teeth with your leg bones, and decorate my cave with your skulls. What will you be willing to pay to keep your miserable lives?" This gives the party an opening to negotiate, but it should cost them something. Does the party think they should negotiate? Does the party think they can beat the dragon? At what cost might they beat the dragon?
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Setup: The party is in the middle of combat against a White Dragon Wyrmling. The Ranger decides he wants to determine would his player "know that white dragons tend to be even more feral and primal in nature than other chromatic dragons?".
Question: His goal is trying to reason with the dragon, even though they are in the middle of combat. I do not want to take the agency away from his turn so I thought I'd allow a Nature check. What I would like the DM point of view is would this Ability Check be considered the single free interaction or would it considered as using up the player Action?
I am aware of the following and why I was asking if an ability check such as Nature be considered under this category.
It usually depends on the check. A “doing” check like Perception/Investigation is usually an Action, but a “knowing” check like Nature/History could go either way.
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That is where I was at. I know searching was considered a action which to me is taking your attention off of combat. Now a knowledge check seems reasonable thinking it more over that is not really taking attention away from the situation. Hmm....
Yeah. I mean, if one wants to delude themselves into believing that something resembling “realistic” exists in 5e Ability checks, then it could conceivably come down to the die roll, on a 1-10, they had to really stop and think for a bit so it’s an Action. On an 11+ the knowledge jumped to mind, so Free Action. With modifiers and proficiency, they may very likely still succeed the check with a roll below 11, but this way the degree of success becomes relevant too. But honestly, that just seems needlessly complicated, and the player has a 50/50 shot at loosing their Action so they will likely never do it. Maybe instead is the 1-10 was a Free Action and 11+ was no action?
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You could always go with a passive check. I don't think Nature would be correct here though, more like History. You would need to ask yourself, "does it make sense that this character might know about dragons?" A ranger that has taken them as a favored enemy will definitely have a high chance of knowing this, a standard one is much less likely unless they have done a ton of research into them.
To answer the main question, though, using an ability check whilst in combat requires an action unless they have a feature that turns such checks into different actions (like cunning action).
It could be either. Some things I just know, other I know if I spend a bit of time thinking. Using the passive check isn't horrible for that.
My general way of ruling it is if the check arises from circumstances, it's a free action. If the check arises from character action, it's an action.
Knowledge checks to know about something you've spotted are in the first category.
Also, any checks made purely as a roleplaying aid (such as figuring out what your character knows vs what you know) can be rolled without any input from me as DM.
Just for clarification, the Nature Ability Check that I said would be rolled is repurposed off of Tasha's Research Table in the Parleying section of the book. The table outlines by monster type what of ability check should be used to research about a monster.
The character has some experience with Dragons but not necessarily the type of dragon he is facing off against. While the DC may be set between 10-15 he still has a chance to recall some of this basic information based on his question.
So far I'm leaning toward allowing these types of "knowledge/brain" checks to fall into the single free action and taking everyone's feedback feels harsh penalizing them using it as a full action.
That is a nice way of setting the floor where their knowledge comes into play as they won't need to roll dice.
I think making such a check count as the character’s ‘Free Action” for that round is completely reasonable and appropriate.
Just my thoughts on this..
In this case, it seems to me, that all you are doing is checking to see if the character already knows something relevant about dragons.
They aren't going to stop what they are doing to sit down and think .. "Hmmm, what do I know about dragons?" The character doesn't need to do that, they either know the information or they don't. They aren't researching or looking up or even standing pondering trying to remember.
Here are the questions to ask yourself ...
1) Would the character know anything at all about the different species of dragons? Do they have a relevant skill or back story elements? Did they know a dragon encounter was likely and would the character have tried to acquire rumors and knowledge about dragons through conversations or other encounters?
If the character doesn't know anything about dragons - they fail automatically.
2) If the character might have heard something relevant - do they remember it in the heat of battle?
Make a check - however, this doesn't even take a free action, it doesn't take any action, you are only checking to see if the character remembers something of use.
DM decides on a DC. This is challenging - based on the characters experiences - how likely do you think that the character might have picked up the relevant information "Young White dragons are not smart and are driven mostly by hunger and a strong desire to acquire pretty items".
There are a few ways to resolve this ...
1 - passive knowledge check - likely nature - compare to the DC and just tell the character the information since character ALREADY knows it.
2 - active knowledge check - roll a die to determine whether the character has any relevant knowledge. The DM could decide to apply advantage if the character is the type to acquire and hoard trivia or disadvantage if they find the combat distracting and making it a bit more difficult to remember some obscure dragon fact. Again DM on DC and modifiers.
Depending on the character the DM can also just rule auto-success or auto-failure. The ranger character that pays attention to nature and their opponents, acquires knowledge whenever they can and hoards it against future need could be an auto-success ... a ranger character that likes to hunt and kill things but doesn't pay much attention, just waits for the next target and doesn't really want to know ... could be an auto-failure since even if they had heard something they wouldn't consider it useful and would promptly forget about it. Anything else in between is a die roll.
However, in my opinion, none of this requires any sort of action since all you are trying to resolve is what the character already knows. They aren't taking any specific action (free or otherwise) to determine the knowledge - they either know it or they don't.
P.S. That is how I would play it :) ... I have no idea whether it is RAW or not but I don't think the rules REQUIRE an action or any other specific period of time be allocated if the DM wants a character to make a skill check. (e.g. a character can move during their turn as well as take an action, that movement could require an acrobatics check (running across a beam) or athletics (climbing a rope or wall) that might entail a skill check that does not necessarily use any sort of action.)
Wow, that is a lot to take in. Fortunately, quite a bit what you said mirrored what I was thinking about how I would handle it so I appreciate the feedback.
Knowing or recalling information about a creature is a passive Intelligence check. The Ranger could apply their Nature proficiency if they have it (or Arcana or History). Studying a creature is an active Intelligence check that would require an Action.
Also, when setting the DC for either check, do consider that dragons are iconic monsters. In most settings, even a commoner would know certain things about dragons and be able to distinguish between the good (metallic) and bad (chromatic) varieties. Take the Forgotten Realms as an example. In that context, knowing that white dragons are feral in nature should be a pretty easy check and potentially an automatic success if the PC is from a northern region.
In this case, it sounds like your Ranger player is trying to do a cool thing (reason with a dragon), and it seems the player already knows this fact about white dragons. I'd say just let him have it so he can try to do the cool thing.
From my point of view, why doesn't the player just act like the dragon might be willing to talk? He says something to the dragon. The dragon responds or he doesn't respond. Meanwhile the players keep fighting? It seems unless the Ranger can get the players to stop fighting, there is nothing to talk about.
Now the Ranger makes a check and learns the dragon is more willing to discuss the situation. More willing than what? If they are actively fighting then what a DC=30 check? If they are willing to pull back a moment then the DC drops to 25, 20? Since they have been fighting, I think it is going to be difficult, but you can set the DC wherever you think it fits.
If the Ranger is talking to the dragon, he isn't talking to the party. The party doesn't know what he knows so seeing him pass his nature skill check shouldn't change their actions until he has talked to them. So he is fighting the dragon along with his mates. He makes a successful nature check. Then the next round what? He stops swinging his sword, steps back and yells to his party, "Guys, I think we could discuss this if you'll agree to stop fighting the dragon, and the dragon agrees to stop fighting us." [That's a lot in 6 second, but let's roll with it] Now your party and the dragon have to respond in initiative order. What do they do? The dragon, being outnumbered might well take a free swipe before the truce take effect, and do your party members have the discipline to hold back not knowing?
So somehow the fight stops. The dragon is going to do something to improve his situation. He is probably going to tell you to move into a less advantageous position to demonstrate your sincerity. Can you take that risk? What happens if a cleric or someone casts a healing spell while things are quieting down? How might the dragon react to this?
So that kinda describes the outcome of the nature check being successful and the party rolls with it. What if the nature check is unsuccessful but the player thinks it was successful? Say the Ranger thinks the dragon is willing, but in reality he is not willing?
What happens if the player thinks the dragon isn't willing to negotiate? Probably just keep fighting, right?
So ...
What if the dragon makes the first move? What if the dragon says "You'll never get anywhere with me unless you lay down your weapons. I've killed the ones that came before you, and this isn't as tough as some of those fights. I'll pick my teeth with your leg bones, and decorate my cave with your skulls. What will you be willing to pay to keep your miserable lives?" This gives the party an opening to negotiate, but it should cost them something. Does the party think they should negotiate? Does the party think they can beat the dragon? At what cost might they beat the dragon?
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Others have stated much of this. Bottom line:
Passive Check against the char's innate knowledge: Sure, why not be a Free Action.
Active Check, where the char rolls a D20 against a DC, that is an Action.