Basically Twinning and Empowering would let you have a bunch of chances to reroll and try to get the spell to jump.
I I'm not really so concerned about peoples interpretation of the RAW. I'm looking for an actual reason why it would be overpowered or negatively impact the game.
It doesn't seem like it would be overpowered given the resource cost, ability to miss, only a chance to jump, and no half damage like an AoE spell. The one negative would be the time it takes to roll hit and damage and reroll damage, but even this is not going to be as bad as rolling saves for and AoE.
I guess I'm wondering if there is any valid reason why this shouldn't be allowed?
No, Chaos bolt has a chance of hitting multiple targets. Twin spell explicitly states it can only be used on spells that do not target multiple opponents. Even if you ignore that, it would be the D6's that you could re-roll, not the D8. The D6 increases with increasing spell slot level not the D8 so it wouldn't increase the chance of jumping anyway. By RAW this doesn't work, but you said you aren't interested in RAW, only people's opinions. Well simply put if it is your game and one of your players wants to do it then it is up to you. If you are the player trying to do it and the DM is saying no - well they are the DM. Personally I wouldn't allow it as I keep to RAW as much as possible to prevent any later arguments. Players will always come back with "Well you bent the rules to allow that so why not this?" I prefer to play instead of spend an hour discussing the rules.
it would be the D6's that you could re-roll, not the D8. The D6 increases with increasing spell slot level not the D8 so it wouldn't increase the chance of jumping anyway.
"Empowered Spell. When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.
You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell."
What are you referring to, empower? For empower you just get to reroll any damage dice, the ones that decide if the spell jumps are damage dice.
Yes, technically they are, however they are set at 2d8 and are used to determine the damage type. It is the 2D6 that increases when you level up. It is still a moot point however, as Chaos Bolt can target more than 1 enemy and therefore using it with the twin spell metamagic explicitly does not work. If you want to homebrew it then that is up to the DM in the game. Are you the DM in question or are you upset that a DM said no and you have come here to question the DM's decision? Either way, this should still be in the homebrew section as you are asking a hypothetical question about the results of homebrewing metamagic to allow the effect.
I guess I'm wondering if there is any valid reason why this shouldn't be allowed?
This is a strange question, as you say before this you don't want to hear about RAW. The #1 "valid" reason why it shouldn't be allowed to Twin the Chaos Bolt spell is the RAW reason - Twinning can't be applied to spells that can hit multiple targets. The PHB says so. That is the "valid reason" why it wouldn't be allowed.
If you are going to ask, "why shouldn't I disregard the rules?" then only you can answer that question. Nobody can make you play by the rules, and even Gary Gygax used to tell people to disregard any rule they didn't like. However, disregarding the rules has consequences of which you should be aware.
The consequence of greatest concern would be that allowing Twinning of Chaos Bolt opens the door to the next question: Why enforce the prohibition on Twinning multi-target spells at all? Although again you say you don't care about RAW, we have to ask ourselves, why did the rules specifically prohibit these multi-target spells from being twinned? I think all you have to do is look at spells like Fireball to understand why -- twinned Fireballs would be insanely overpowered for the cost of a single Sorcery Point... a 5th level Sorcerer could throw TWO fireballs into the same area and do 16D6 damage on failed saves. That is insane -- you're talking Ancient Dragon levels of damage with a 3rd level spell. The designers probably didn't even have to play-test this one -- you can see just from a glance that allowing a single Sorcery Point to double the effect of an AOE spell that can already target a bunch of characters would be unbelievably OP.
So now the question becomes - if you allow Twinning in the case of Chaos Bolt, by what reason to d you prohibit Twinning in the case of every other multi-target spell? Is there a good answer for doing it just for Chaos Bolt, other than "because I want to?" Sure technically "because I want to" with no other reason behind it is a perfectly valid DM statement. However, good DMs will always have a reason. You don't just arbitrarily ignore the rules for one spell out of all the spells in the game "because you want to" or you risk becoming an arbitrary and capricious DM.
You have not provided any positive reason why Twinning should be allowed for this spell that does not normally allow it under RAW. You have said that RAW is not what you want to hear about, but you have only asked "why shouldn't I do this thing?" As a DM when making the decision to over-rule the written, published rules, it is good practice to have a specific reason in favor of the change, rather than deciding to make the change unless someone can provide you a reason why you shouldn't. The default ruling should always be RAW, unless there is a good reason otherwise.
Good reasons can include (a) a common consensus among many DMs around the world that a spell or feature is game-breaking even though WOTC turns a deaf ear in publish after publish, (b) something not fitting into your world's theme, or (3) a spell or effect that is going to break what you want to do in a campaign. Does your Chaos Bolt ruling fall into these categories? Or something similar? That is the time to decide when to overrule RAW.
You didn't give us any good reason why it should be allowed, rather asking us to provide a reason that it shouldn't be allowed other than RAW. Well, RAW disallows Twinning in this and all similar cases, because twinning multi-target spells is OP as a general case. That's all we've got for ya.
Let me ask you one back: On what basis would you rule that Twinning should be allowed just for Chaos Bolt, and not other multi-target spells? If you can't provide a good reason, as a DM, to back that up, then I'd argue you don't have a good reason to allow Twinning in just this case. And if you're gonna open the door to Twinning on all multi-target spells, well... good luck to you.
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But just using empower alone to re-roll the damage (increasing the chance of the chaotic jump to another target affect, as well as change the nature of the damage of the first and likely only) seems all right, right?
But just using empower alone to re-roll the damage (increasing the chance of the chaotic jump to another target affect, as well as change the nature of the damage of the first and likely only) seems all right, right?
I see nothing in the text of Empowered that would prohibit use of it in conjunction with Chaos Bolt.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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Assuming you are wanting to maximize the chance of Chaos Bolt bouncing without using the disputed Twinned Spell Metagmagic, the following works:
Metamagic - Empowered Spell: Now this works, and it's cheap too.
Feat - Elemental Adapt (Cold): This will add two more 'bounce' triggers, rolling a '1' and a '2', or rolling a '2' and a '1'.
So with Empowered Spell and Elemental Adapt (Cold) combined, you'll have the following scenarios, assuming you have enough sorcery points:
Get your bounce immediately by rolling a double, rolling a '1' and a '2', or rolling a '2' and a '1'.
Rolling a '1' or '2' on one dice and not a '1' nor a '2' on the second dice. Spend a sorcery point, re-roll the second dice, and hope to get a '1' or '2', causing the bounce to occur.
Not rolling a double, nor a '1', nor a '2'. Spend a sorcery point and re-roll both dice.
This works out to the following probabilities:
Immediate bounce. Rolling doubles, a '1' and a '2', or a '2' and a '1': 10/64
Not getting the immediate bounce, but rolling a '1' or a '2' on one of the dice: 24/64
Rerolling the other dice and getting a '1' or a '2': 2/8
Not getting the immediate bounce, and not rolling a '1' nor a '2' on one of the dice: 30/64
I like that idea. Works very well. Elemental Adept + Empower works very well with Chaos Bolt.
By my calculations, the normal odds for getting a bounce are 8/64 (=1/8). Just doing the Elemental Adept (Cold), turns that into 10/64. Throwing in the Reroll makes it 20/64, or about 5/16, a bit under 1/3.
Only problem is the damage is severely decreased as you are rerolling a LOT of higher dice hoping to get a 1 or a 2.
Can someone work out the average damage using this system?
Dropping a feat and a metamagic into getting Chaos Bolt to bounce isn't likely to lead to as much damage as simply casting it twice in consecutive rounds. Hedging bets with a strategy that encourages near minimum damage seems to undermine the value of using it in the first place. 1st level spells aren't great candidates for some metamagic because they are nearly cost equivalent to the metamagic themselves.
One of the nice traits of Chaos Bolt is that you either get to choose your damage type (between 2 options) or you get a bounce. For the resources, we'd be better off just twinning Chromatic Orb, as it is explicitly allowed, and you can choose the damage type.
However, if a DM were to create a magic item that would increase the bounce chance of Chaos Bolt, that could be interesting. For example,
Orb of Controlled Chaos
While holding this arcane focus, you can increase the value of a single damage die from a spell you cast by one, up to its maximum.
This is mechanically inferior to the Imbued Wood arcane focuses, except in this particular application, where it would extend the bounce threat range to adjacent numbers. (1/8 --> 1/3)
Memnosyne, I wish I had read your idea of twinning being better before I did the math.
For those of you interested:
Normal CB averages 12.5 per hit, with the odds of bouncing that becomes 14.29
If you Elemental Adept (Cold), that goes up to 12.9 per hit, bounces raise it to 17.22
If you empower for 1 sorceror point you get whooped upside the head for stupidity, and your damage increases to 15, bounce for 19.
Empowered + Adept Cold = 15 damage, 20 with bounce. (Adept Cold gets same damage on first hit because if you get a 1 you are likely to convert to 2 rather than re-roll for a 4.5 average)
Obviously if you twin it for 1 sp, you get 25, bounce to 28.58, a far better deal.
But Elemental Adept Cold does still make sense if you twin it, damage becomes 25.8, bouncing for 34.44
Would a DM have any issue with a caster voluntarily reducing their damage die to get a higher bounce chance?
2d8+1d6 --> 2d6+1d6 --> 2d4+1d6
The scenario being, the party has been mobbed by dozens of CR 1/8 monsters and the damage that each takes individually is largely irrelevant, but they're problematic in bulk.
The value of doing so increases with upcasting, but as long as 2d4 is the lower limit, the potential is still pretty underpowered.
Yes, technically they are, however they are set at 2d8 and are used to determine the damage type. It is the 2D6 that increases when you level up. It is still a moot point however, as Chaos Bolt can target more than 1 enemy and therefore using it with the twin spell metamagic explicitly does not work. If you want to homebrew it then that is up to the DM in the game. Are you the DM in question or are you upset that a DM said no and you have come here to question the DM's decision? Either way, this should still be in the homebrew section as you are asking a hypothetical question about the results of homebrewing metamagic to allow the effect.
You keep bringing up d6 on upcasting, why? It has nothing to do with anything I asked about. It has nothing to do with Twin or empower.
I specifically said I'm not concerned with RAW and all you have done is tell me what RAW says.
You didn't give us any good reason why it should be allowed, rather asking us to provide a reason that it shouldn't be allowed other than RAW. Well, RAW disallows Twinning in this and all similar cases, because twinning multi-target spells is OP as a general case. That's all we've got for ya.
Let me ask you one back: On what basis would you rule that Twinning should be allowed just for Chaos Bolt, and not other multi-target spells? If you can't provide a good reason, as a DM, to back that up, then I'd argue you don't have a good reason to allow Twinning in just this case. And if you're gonna open the door to Twinning on all multi-target spells, well... good luck to you.
So you are saying it would be overpowered. How?
I'm saying from what I can see, giving the damage, resources, chance to miss (vs half dmg), chance to not jump, I'm just not seeing how it is OP. From a mechanical standpoint, it just doesn't average out to being that much damage, especially in comparison to any AoE that you empower. (keep in mind that what you said about twinning fireball isn't accurate, it wouldn't take 1 point, it would take 3, twin spell takes 1 point per level.)
Couple this with the fact that sorcs are generally agreed upon to be an underpowered class, and I don't see how this is OP.
I'm saying from what I can see, giving the damage, resources, chance to miss (vs half dmg), chance to not jump, I'm just not seeing how it is OP. From a mechanical standpoint, it just doesn't average out to being that much damage, especially in comparison to any AoE that you empower. (keep in mind that what you said about twinning fireball isn't accurate, it wouldn't take 1 point, it would take 3, twin spell takes 1 point per level.)
Couple this with the fact that sorcs are generally agreed upon to be an underpowered class, and I don't see how this is OP.
Whether or not something is "OP" requires context.
Is it gamebreaking for a 1st level Magic Missile to create 4 missiles instead of 3? Not really. At higher levels, you've got better things to cast, and even your cantrips will do substantially more damage, however, it suddenly becomes more powerful for its level than comparable spells, even if only slightly.
RAW controls balance between spells of the same level. Spells that don't fit within this model are either overpowered, or underpowered, with respect to game balance for that particular level feature.
Significantly enhancing the utility of a "balanced" spell makes it overpowered, by definition.
More technically, "OP" can be described as an "optimal" choice within the "Meta". If allowing Chaos Bolt to be Twinned and Enhanced would cause the majority of Power Gamers to regularly choose it as a 1st level combo, then it is "Over Powered".
That said, whether or not being "overpowered" is a problem, is entirely dependent upon your DM and campaign.
A random commoner NPC who can cast Fireball as a racial ability isn't necessarily overpowered, they would just have an increased CR, heavily skewed by offensive capability. (If they were still listed as CR0, then yes, they would be overpowered, despite being a "Commoner".)
If your character is underperforming in your game and needs a boost, then making a spell slightly more powerful may be the boon that suits you, but the nature of a boon is that is that of being "more powerful than normal".
I'm saying from what I can see, giving the damage, resources, chance to miss (vs half dmg), chance to not jump, I'm just not seeing how it is OP. From a mechanical standpoint, it just doesn't average out to being that much damage, especially in comparison to any AoE that you empower. (keep in mind that what you said about twinning fireball isn't accurate, it wouldn't take 1 point, it would take 3, twin spell takes 1 point per level.)
Couple this with the fact that sorcs are generally agreed upon to be an underpowered class, and I don't see how this is OP.
-Whether or not something is "OP" requires context.
-RAW controls balance between spells of the same level. Spells that don't fit within this model are either overpowered, or underpowered, with respect to game balance for that particular level feature.
The context is a PC in a game of D&D 5e, sorry if that wasn't obvious.
Idk man, if you think that all spells of the same level are balanced and of equal power that is just objectively, mathematically not true. Not only that but chaos bolt in particular is underpowered when compared to things like catapult, guiding bolt etc., even when factoring in that it can jump, and the board consensus on Sorcerer is that it is a weak class.
What your reasoning breaks down to still just seems to be "the rules are the rules for a reason" but not specifically addressing weather or not this spell/metamagic combo would be too powerful to allow.
Everyone other than you seems to agree and have the same basic argument. Whether or not you understand or agree with it, the consensus in response to your original post should carry _some_ weight.
"Whether or not this combo is too powerful to allow" is a question that can only be answered by your DM with respect to your specific situation at your table. It is an arbitrary boost to a low level spell. Not game breaking, just arbitrary.
If I were your DM and you really, really wanted this handout, I would probably allow it in exchange for some minor drawback, such as increasing the SP cost for twinning this spell by 1, or having you roll a spellcasting check to avoid losing the spell. Pretty much anything can be balanced. If you just want a straight power boost, then sure, go for it. It's not that significant, and if it _does_ become a problem, you can always swap it out for something more appropriate later.
Personally, I like the sorcerer. It's easy to justify giving it a personalized expanded spell list based on the character's backstory, but otherwise it is a perfectly capable class with a lot of great flavor.
I would be interested to see what you have read to come to the conclusion that Sorcerers are a weak class. In the roles that they are suited for, they are actually quite powerful. If your sole concern is generic "damage per round", then maybe you should consider another class?
I'm saying from what I can see, giving the damage, resources, chance to miss (vs half dmg), chance to not jump, I'm just not seeing how it is OP. From a mechanical standpoint, it just doesn't average out to being that much damage, especially in comparison to any AoE that you empower. (keep in mind that what you said about twinning fireball isn't accurate, it wouldn't take 1 point, it would take 3, twin spell takes 1 point per level.)
You completely ignored my question, even though you quoted it. Let me repeat.
Twinning is not allowed under the rules for any spell that can hit multiple targets. Chaos Bolt falls under that umbrella, and it is normally not allowed.
On what basis would you argue that Twinning should be allowed for one, and only one, multi-target spell (Chaos Bolt) but not any others? Or are you arguing that ALL spells, including the multi-target ones specifically banned from Twinning under the rules, should be allowed to Twin? Are you arguing here that Twinning needs to be changed? Or just that you want Chaos Bolt, and only Chaos Bolt, to ignore Twinning rules?
If you are arguing that Twinning should work on all multi-target spells, that is clearly and obviously OP. Surely you can see this, even if it would take 3 sorcery points to twin Fireball instead of one (the # of sorc points doesn't negate the fact that a 5th level Sorc with a 3rd level Fireball twinned would be able to put out as much damage as an Ancient Dragon). Presumably, that is not what you are arguing, so correct me if I am wrong.
If you are arguing that only Chaos Bolt should be allowed to ignore the multi-target restriction, you haven't yet explained why Chaos Bolt should be the exception to all other multi-target spells. What's the basis for this exception?
"Sorcerers are underpowered" doesn't cut it as an explanation -- that would be an argument for letting Sorcerers Twin everything, not for letting Chaos Bolt ignore the Twinning restrictions.
He is the player not the DM. I have a feeling that he tried to use it in a game and the DM said no, so he has come here for reasons why the DM was wrong and why he should be allowed to do it. By explicitly stating he doesn't care about RAW it sounds as though he is trying to get an argument to present to the DM in order to get around RAW. That's why he didn't like my answer or any of the other answers saying no.
So, my thoughts throughout this whole thread - If you want a change of RAW, there needs to be a reason. Statements that are made have the burden of proof. It falls onto the person making the claim so provide proof of their claim. As far as I can tell, OP has said "because I want to" as the reason the change should be made.
If you want to maximize damage using a twin spell and empower spell without ignoring RAW use Chromatic Orb.
Also, just to make my stance clear - "Twinned Spell : To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." Chaos bolt is capable of targeting more then one target, even if it is a chance.
Basically Twinning and Empowering would let you have a bunch of chances to reroll and try to get the spell to jump.
I I'm not really so concerned about peoples interpretation of the RAW. I'm looking for an actual reason why it would be overpowered or negatively impact the game.
It doesn't seem like it would be overpowered given the resource cost, ability to miss, only a chance to jump, and no half damage like an AoE spell.
The one negative would be the time it takes to roll hit and damage and reroll damage, but even this is not going to be as bad as rolling saves for and AoE.
I guess I'm wondering if there is any valid reason why this shouldn't be allowed?
No, Chaos bolt has a chance of hitting multiple targets. Twin spell explicitly states it can only be used on spells that do not target multiple opponents. Even if you ignore that, it would be the D6's that you could re-roll, not the D8. The D6 increases with increasing spell slot level not the D8 so it wouldn't increase the chance of jumping anyway. By RAW this doesn't work, but you said you aren't interested in RAW, only people's opinions. Well simply put if it is your game and one of your players wants to do it then it is up to you. If you are the player trying to do it and the DM is saying no - well they are the DM. Personally I wouldn't allow it as I keep to RAW as much as possible to prevent any later arguments. Players will always come back with "Well you bent the rules to allow that so why not this?" I prefer to play instead of spend an hour discussing the rules.
"Empowered Spell.
When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.
What are you referring to, empower?
For empower you just get to reroll any damage dice, the ones that decide if the spell jumps are damage dice.
Yes, technically they are, however they are set at 2d8 and are used to determine the damage type. It is the 2D6 that increases when you level up. It is still a moot point however, as Chaos Bolt can target more than 1 enemy and therefore using it with the twin spell metamagic explicitly does not work. If you want to homebrew it then that is up to the DM in the game. Are you the DM in question or are you upset that a DM said no and you have come here to question the DM's decision? Either way, this should still be in the homebrew section as you are asking a hypothetical question about the results of homebrewing metamagic to allow the effect.
This is a strange question, as you say before this you don't want to hear about RAW. The #1 "valid" reason why it shouldn't be allowed to Twin the Chaos Bolt spell is the RAW reason - Twinning can't be applied to spells that can hit multiple targets. The PHB says so. That is the "valid reason" why it wouldn't be allowed.
If you are going to ask, "why shouldn't I disregard the rules?" then only you can answer that question. Nobody can make you play by the rules, and even Gary Gygax used to tell people to disregard any rule they didn't like. However, disregarding the rules has consequences of which you should be aware.
The consequence of greatest concern would be that allowing Twinning of Chaos Bolt opens the door to the next question: Why enforce the prohibition on Twinning multi-target spells at all? Although again you say you don't care about RAW, we have to ask ourselves, why did the rules specifically prohibit these multi-target spells from being twinned? I think all you have to do is look at spells like Fireball to understand why -- twinned Fireballs would be insanely overpowered for the cost of a single Sorcery Point... a 5th level Sorcerer could throw TWO fireballs into the same area and do 16D6 damage on failed saves. That is insane -- you're talking Ancient Dragon levels of damage with a 3rd level spell. The designers probably didn't even have to play-test this one -- you can see just from a glance that allowing a single Sorcery Point to double the effect of an AOE spell that can already target a bunch of characters would be unbelievably OP.
So now the question becomes - if you allow Twinning in the case of Chaos Bolt, by what reason to d you prohibit Twinning in the case of every other multi-target spell? Is there a good answer for doing it just for Chaos Bolt, other than "because I want to?" Sure technically "because I want to" with no other reason behind it is a perfectly valid DM statement. However, good DMs will always have a reason. You don't just arbitrarily ignore the rules for one spell out of all the spells in the game "because you want to" or you risk becoming an arbitrary and capricious DM.
You have not provided any positive reason why Twinning should be allowed for this spell that does not normally allow it under RAW. You have said that RAW is not what you want to hear about, but you have only asked "why shouldn't I do this thing?" As a DM when making the decision to over-rule the written, published rules, it is good practice to have a specific reason in favor of the change, rather than deciding to make the change unless someone can provide you a reason why you shouldn't. The default ruling should always be RAW, unless there is a good reason otherwise.
Good reasons can include (a) a common consensus among many DMs around the world that a spell or feature is game-breaking even though WOTC turns a deaf ear in publish after publish, (b) something not fitting into your world's theme, or (3) a spell or effect that is going to break what you want to do in a campaign. Does your Chaos Bolt ruling fall into these categories? Or something similar? That is the time to decide when to overrule RAW.
You didn't give us any good reason why it should be allowed, rather asking us to provide a reason that it shouldn't be allowed other than RAW. Well, RAW disallows Twinning in this and all similar cases, because twinning multi-target spells is OP as a general case. That's all we've got for ya.
Let me ask you one back: On what basis would you rule that Twinning should be allowed just for Chaos Bolt, and not other multi-target spells? If you can't provide a good reason, as a DM, to back that up, then I'd argue you don't have a good reason to allow Twinning in just this case. And if you're gonna open the door to Twinning on all multi-target spells, well... good luck to you.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
But just using empower alone to re-roll the damage (increasing the chance of the chaotic jump to another target affect, as well as change the nature of the damage of the first and likely only) seems all right, right?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I see nothing in the text of Empowered that would prohibit use of it in conjunction with Chaos Bolt.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Assuming you are wanting to maximize the chance of Chaos Bolt bouncing without using the disputed Twinned Spell Metagmagic, the following works:
So with Empowered Spell and Elemental Adapt (Cold) combined, you'll have the following scenarios, assuming you have enough sorcery points:
This works out to the following probabilities:
I like that idea. Works very well. Elemental Adept + Empower works very well with Chaos Bolt.
By my calculations, the normal odds for getting a bounce are 8/64 (=1/8). Just doing the Elemental Adept (Cold), turns that into 10/64. Throwing in the Reroll makes it 20/64, or about 5/16, a bit under 1/3.
Only problem is the damage is severely decreased as you are rerolling a LOT of higher dice hoping to get a 1 or a 2.
Can someone work out the average damage using this system?
The question then becomes, to what end?
Dropping a feat and a metamagic into getting Chaos Bolt to bounce isn't likely to lead to as much damage as simply casting it twice in consecutive rounds. Hedging bets with a strategy that encourages near minimum damage seems to undermine the value of using it in the first place. 1st level spells aren't great candidates for some metamagic because they are nearly cost equivalent to the metamagic themselves.
One of the nice traits of Chaos Bolt is that you either get to choose your damage type (between 2 options) or you get a bounce. For the resources, we'd be better off just twinning Chromatic Orb, as it is explicitly allowed, and you can choose the damage type.
However, if a DM were to create a magic item that would increase the bounce chance of Chaos Bolt, that could be interesting. For example,
This is mechanically inferior to the Imbued Wood arcane focuses, except in this particular application, where it would extend the bounce threat range to adjacent numbers. (1/8 --> 1/3)
Memnosyne, I wish I had read your idea of twinning being better before I did the math.
For those of you interested:
Normal CB averages 12.5 per hit, with the odds of bouncing that becomes 14.29
If you Elemental Adept (Cold), that goes up to 12.9 per hit, bounces raise it to 17.22
If you empower for 1 sorceror point you get whooped upside the head for stupidity, and your damage increases to 15, bounce for 19.
Empowered + Adept Cold = 15 damage, 20 with bounce. (Adept Cold gets same damage on first hit because if you get a 1 you are likely to convert to 2 rather than re-roll for a 4.5 average)
Obviously if you twin it for 1 sp, you get 25, bounce to 28.58, a far better deal.
But Elemental Adept Cold does still make sense if you twin it, damage becomes 25.8, bouncing for 34.44
I think an interesting question could be:
Would a DM have any issue with a caster voluntarily reducing their damage die to get a higher bounce chance?
2d8+1d6 --> 2d6+1d6 --> 2d4+1d6
The scenario being, the party has been mobbed by dozens of CR 1/8 monsters and the damage that each takes individually is largely irrelevant, but they're problematic in bulk.
The value of doing so increases with upcasting, but as long as 2d4 is the lower limit, the potential is still pretty underpowered.
You keep bringing up d6 on upcasting, why? It has nothing to do with anything I asked about.
It has nothing to do with Twin or empower.
I specifically said I'm not concerned with RAW and all you have done is tell me what RAW says.
So you are saying it would be overpowered. How?
I'm saying from what I can see, giving the damage, resources, chance to miss (vs half dmg), chance to not jump, I'm just not seeing how it is OP. From a mechanical standpoint, it just doesn't average out to being that much damage, especially in comparison to any AoE that you empower.
(keep in mind that what you said about twinning fireball isn't accurate, it wouldn't take 1 point, it would take 3, twin spell takes 1 point per level.)
Couple this with the fact that sorcs are generally agreed upon to be an underpowered class, and I don't see how this is OP.
Whether or not something is "OP" requires context.
Is it gamebreaking for a 1st level Magic Missile to create 4 missiles instead of 3? Not really. At higher levels, you've got better things to cast, and even your cantrips will do substantially more damage, however, it suddenly becomes more powerful for its level than comparable spells, even if only slightly.
RAW controls balance between spells of the same level. Spells that don't fit within this model are either overpowered, or underpowered, with respect to game balance for that particular level feature.
Significantly enhancing the utility of a "balanced" spell makes it overpowered, by definition.
More technically, "OP" can be described as an "optimal" choice within the "Meta". If allowing Chaos Bolt to be Twinned and Enhanced would cause the majority of Power Gamers to regularly choose it as a 1st level combo, then it is "Over Powered".
That said, whether or not being "overpowered" is a problem, is entirely dependent upon your DM and campaign.
A random commoner NPC who can cast Fireball as a racial ability isn't necessarily overpowered, they would just have an increased CR, heavily skewed by offensive capability. (If they were still listed as CR0, then yes, they would be overpowered, despite being a "Commoner".)
If your character is underperforming in your game and needs a boost, then making a spell slightly more powerful may be the boon that suits you, but the nature of a boon is that is that of being "more powerful than normal".
The context is a PC in a game of D&D 5e, sorry if that wasn't obvious.
Idk man, if you think that all spells of the same level are balanced and of equal power that is just objectively, mathematically not true. Not only that but chaos bolt in particular is underpowered when compared to things like catapult, guiding bolt etc., even when factoring in that it can jump, and the board consensus on Sorcerer is that it is a weak class.
What your reasoning breaks down to still just seems to be "the rules are the rules for a reason" but not specifically addressing weather or not this spell/metamagic combo would be too powerful to allow.
Everyone other than you seems to agree and have the same basic argument. Whether or not you understand or agree with it, the consensus in response to your original post should carry _some_ weight.
"Whether or not this combo is too powerful to allow" is a question that can only be answered by your DM with respect to your specific situation at your table. It is an arbitrary boost to a low level spell. Not game breaking, just arbitrary.
If I were your DM and you really, really wanted this handout, I would probably allow it in exchange for some minor drawback, such as increasing the SP cost for twinning this spell by 1, or having you roll a spellcasting check to avoid losing the spell. Pretty much anything can be balanced. If you just want a straight power boost, then sure, go for it. It's not that significant, and if it _does_ become a problem, you can always swap it out for something more appropriate later.
Personally, I like the sorcerer. It's easy to justify giving it a personalized expanded spell list based on the character's backstory, but otherwise it is a perfectly capable class with a lot of great flavor.
I would be interested to see what you have read to come to the conclusion that Sorcerers are a weak class. In the roles that they are suited for, they are actually quite powerful. If your sole concern is generic "damage per round", then maybe you should consider another class?
You completely ignored my question, even though you quoted it. Let me repeat.
Twinning is not allowed under the rules for any spell that can hit multiple targets. Chaos Bolt falls under that umbrella, and it is normally not allowed.
On what basis would you argue that Twinning should be allowed for one, and only one, multi-target spell (Chaos Bolt) but not any others? Or are you arguing that ALL spells, including the multi-target ones specifically banned from Twinning under the rules, should be allowed to Twin? Are you arguing here that Twinning needs to be changed? Or just that you want Chaos Bolt, and only Chaos Bolt, to ignore Twinning rules?
If you are arguing that Twinning should work on all multi-target spells, that is clearly and obviously OP. Surely you can see this, even if it would take 3 sorcery points to twin Fireball instead of one (the # of sorc points doesn't negate the fact that a 5th level Sorc with a 3rd level Fireball twinned would be able to put out as much damage as an Ancient Dragon). Presumably, that is not what you are arguing, so correct me if I am wrong.
If you are arguing that only Chaos Bolt should be allowed to ignore the multi-target restriction, you haven't yet explained why Chaos Bolt should be the exception to all other multi-target spells. What's the basis for this exception?
"Sorcerers are underpowered" doesn't cut it as an explanation -- that would be an argument for letting Sorcerers Twin everything, not for letting Chaos Bolt ignore the Twinning restrictions.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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He is the player not the DM. I have a feeling that he tried to use it in a game and the DM said no, so he has come here for reasons why the DM was wrong and why he should be allowed to do it. By explicitly stating he doesn't care about RAW it sounds as though he is trying to get an argument to present to the DM in order to get around RAW. That's why he didn't like my answer or any of the other answers saying no.
So, my thoughts throughout this whole thread - If you want a change of RAW, there needs to be a reason. Statements that are made have the burden of proof. It falls onto the person making the claim so provide proof of their claim. As far as I can tell, OP has said "because I want to" as the reason the change should be made.
If you want to maximize damage using a twin spell and empower spell without ignoring RAW use Chromatic Orb.
Also, just to make my stance clear - "Twinned Spell : To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." Chaos bolt is capable of targeting more then one target, even if it is a chance.
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