The general idea: I want to play a naive to the world performer who realizes he's going to have to learn to fight of he wants to make it. I'll play him as sort of a coward when it comes to combat, mostly just as a support, hiding behind our tanks until reaching the subclass. From there, I'm playing it like he's learning how to fight through watching and talking to his comrades, taking rogue until I reach swashbuckler. I wanted him to be all about throwing knives rather than a crossbow or bow as it's something I'm known for among my group in rl and I'm playing it like it's one of his stage acts. I dropped the sharpshooter idea once I found out we probably have a Ranger as I assume the Ranger will probably take the feat and it'll them some opportunities to shine.
Ahh. Okay then. For some reason I was under the impression you were starting as a rogue and only dipping (3-5 levels) into Bard. What is your planned split anyway? Mostly Bard, mostly Rogue, or half & half? Take Bard to 5th and then Rogue the rest of the way? Pick up three levels of Rogue and then finish Bard?
I am curious as to why you are going with Swashbuckler instead of a subclass that would lend itself more to that character concept. At least as I understand your concept based on your explanation. I mean, that subclass’ whole schtick is to leap boldly into combat and then fancyfoot out again without needing to use Cunning Action. (So they can use two weapons to help improve odds to land a sneak attack.)
I’m not arguing with you or telling you to change anything, far from it. If it makes you happy then get down with your bad self. I’m asking for clarification. I am genuinely curious because my brain is flashing “TILT” at me 😵💫. (I’m like, “but Tim, it was one plus two plus one plus one, which means there’s still one more bullet in Susan Sarandon’s gun!”) I figure either:
I’m just not pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down
I’m missing something that should be obvious
You are intentionally choosing it for some other reason which I don’t know
Like, I understand you’re building to a character concept and not to a optimize it mechanically. So I understand why you wouldn’t want to go Soulknife, that may be more optimized but it doesn’t fit the character. And I see why Scout doesn’t work either on account of it just not making sense.
But there’s “not optimized,” and then there’s “Not Optimized.” The first two features you’ll get from Swashbuckler appear to oppose or contradic both your character concept and planned combat strategy as I understand them. To me they don’t jive with a “naive coward just learning to fight” concept. (What with the whole Three Musketeers/Pirates of the Caribbean/Errol Flynn vibe and all.) Mechanically speaking, Fancy Footwork requires a melee attack, and Rakish Audacity requires you to be close enough to the enemy that it imposes disadvantage on your throwing. 🤔 Unless I’ve missed something and that’s supposed to be a sudden paradigm shift from naive cowardly to Incomparable as if bewitched,* and a shift tactically, from throwing to stabbing…? 🤷♂️ But if you only plan on a dip into Rogue, there are other subs that might work thematically and have features that (to me at least) seem like they would synergies more readily for what you’re planning:
the Phantom’s features would synergies well and it would be easy to reskin it from its spooky undead theme to something more in line with your concept. Like, Whispers of the Dead could become “Tricks of the Trade” or “Variety Act” (or something) to go along with the PC’s traveling performer theme. As for Wails from the Grave, provided the DM agrees a tiny adjustment from necrotic damage to piercing could easily represent a “Trick Shot,” (or something) in holding with the knife thrower act you are already planning.
The Mastermind’s features would also be fitting. Master of Intrigue would just need a different name, and Master of Tactics could also be a “Trick Shot-esque” feature.
Inquisitive is probably the closest fit because it’s, like, custom tailored to represent your PC loosing their naivety. Plus, the Insightful Fighting feature works for ranged attacks as easily as melee.
So why Swashbuckler? Is it purely for RP? Am I missing something? Did I misunderstand something? At least this inquiring mind would like to know.
a naive to the world performer who realizes he's going to have to learn to fight of he wants to make it. I'll play him as I am curious as to why you are going with Swashbuckler instead of a subclass that would lend itself more to that character concept. At least as I understand your concept based on your explanation. I mean, that subclass’ whole schtick is to leap boldly into combat and then fancyfoot out again without needing to use Cunning Action. (So they can use two weapons to help improve odds to land a sneak attack.)
I’m not arguing with you or telling you to change anything, far from it. If it makes you happy then get down with your bad self. I’m asking for clarification. I am genuinely curious because my brain is flashing “TILT” at me 😵💫. (I’m like, “but Tim, it was one plus two plus one plus one, which means there’s still one more bullet in Susan Sarandon’s gun!”) I figure either:
I’m just not pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down
I’m missing something that should be obvious
You are intentionally choosing it for some other reason which I don’t know
Like, I understand you’re building to a character concept and not to a optimize it mechanically. So I understand why you wouldn’t want to go Soulknife, that may be more optimized but it doesn’t fit the character. And I see why Scout doesn’t work either on account of it just not making sense.
But there’s “not optimized,” and then there’s “Not Optimized.” The first two features you’ll get from Swashbuckler appear to oppose or contradic both your character concept and planned combat strategy as I understand them. To me they don’t jive with a “naive coward just learning to fight” concept. (What with the whole Three Musketeers/Pirates of the Caribbean/Errol Flynn vibe and all.) Mechanically speaking, Fancy Footwork requires a melee attack, and Rakish Audacity requires you to be close enough to the enemy that it imposes disadvantage on your throwing. 🤔 Unless I’ve missed something and that’s supposed to be a sudden paradigm shift from naive cowardly to Incomparable as if bewitched,* and a shift tactically, from throwing to stabbing…? 🤷♂️ But if you only plan on a dip into Rogue, there are other subs that might work thematically and have features that (to me at least) seem like they would synergies more readily for what you’re planning:
the Phantom’s features would synergies well and it would be easy to reskin it from its spooky undead theme to something more in line with your concept. Like, Whispers of the Dead could become “Tricks of the Trade” or “Variety Act” (or something) to go along with the PC’s traveling performer theme. As for Wails from the Grave, provided the DM agrees a tiny adjustment from necrotic damage to piercing could easily represent a “Trick Shot,” (or something) in holding with the knife thrower act you are already planning.
The Mastermind’s features would also be fitting. Master of Intrigue would just need a different name, and Master of Tactics could also be a “Trick Shot-esque” feature.
Inquisitive is probably the closest fit because it’s, like, custom tailored to represent your PC loosing their naivety. Plus, the Insightful Fighting feature works for ranged attacks as easily as melee.
So why Swashbuckler? Is it purely for RP? Am I missing something? Did I misunderstand something? At least this inquiring mind would like to know.
*👇
👆 Best. Movie. Ever. ☝️
It's kind of like that's how he'll start out is not really knowing how to fight and just supporting other players like your typical bard. Once I get to bard3 it's kind of like he will discover his Niche and what he's good at and talk to the more veteran fighters in the group(literally a fighter and a barbarian) and learn what hurts something badly(dip to rogue and go to swashbuckler). When he reaches swashbuckling my idea is like that's when he's confident in his abilities, perhaps even overconfident at times.
Bard 3, then rogue 3, then back and forth until I reach bard 6 or 7(definitely ant to get to 6 for extra attack, but undecided on 7 yet bc that 4th level spell would be nice) then rogue the rest of the way.
Edit:I've also considered going Bard 1, then rogue 1 to go ahead and get sneak attack earlier and then follow a similar pattern.
I like the idea of swashbuckler as being charismatic rogue and I like the idea of a suave rogue rather than an edgier one. Highwayman-ish. You could say that the character I'm going for is somewhat inspired by V from V for Vendetta.
P.S.-sorry for any grammatical or spelling errors. I tend to rely on speech-to-text too often and it's not always as accurate as I would like it to be.
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand.
I'm sorry I couldn't go into as much detail. I have two children and work a lot so my responses usually have to be somewhat brief and quick. After reading your last response more thoroughly I wanted to go into a little more detail.
Why not the Arcane trickster or other subclasses?
Arcane trickster is cool giving you the ability to stay Rogue and gives you acces to magic and mage hand utility, but it seems like it's really common. On top of that if I wanted to remain the face of the party since we don't have one(CHA for whatever reason is the common dump stat for the other members of my group) I have to be MAD with DEX,INT, and CHA. Since Swords Bard and Swashbuckler are both reliant on CHA and DEX, I can focus on just the two. I also realized that by just taking 6-7 levels in Bard I get just about as many spells as the level 20 Arcane Trickster.
As for the others, they sound very cool and should anything happen to Rohan(character) he has a brother that may take up one of these. The thing that gets me about the others is I just don't see a reason with this character. Even if I could reflavor them I feel like save for 1 or 2 abilities, it doesn't seem fitting from a roleplay aspect. The Swashbuckler just has synergistic stats and gave great character dynamic, to go from someone who would normally avoid a fight into someone who would boldly enter it.
Again, thank you. It’s interesting to learn about people’s priorities and decision making processes.
So, out of those, which do you think Rohan’s brother might be?
Good question indeed.
It's funny because I actually made Merrick first and didn't think about giving him a brother as I made him for a one-shot my wife wanted to run(she's going to be our druid in the upcoming campaign). Merrick was intended to be a bit more serious and analytical than Rohan. Being for a one-shot I didnt put too much into his personality, but I think there's no denying he'd probably fall under the Mastermind subclass. My reasons for that are how I played him in that one shot. To give you a brief summary of the one-shot, my wife was going to have us collect dragon blood so some priestess/shaman woman could make an antidote to rid the town of a plague that was sweeping through it. Let's note real quick this was a little railroad-y making us have to go through many little areas and talk to different people. So, naturally being the DM for any other time we played I had some metagamer knowledge and used it. Once "dragon" was brought up I immediately set out to persuade each NPC we were brought to if they could lend us all of the gold they could offer so we could try to set some sort of a trap for the dragon, luring it out with treasure.
Magic is too fun not to have though so if I were to bring Merrick back up, I think he may still be a bard/rogue multiclass. I would probably make him either a Lore or Eloquence bard and then Mastermind Rogue, which I know kind of makes him MAD, but maybe I could talk to DM about making his spellcasting ability INT.
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Ahh. Okay then. For some reason I was under the impression you were starting as a rogue and only dipping (3-5 levels) into Bard. What is your planned split anyway? Mostly Bard, mostly Rogue, or half & half? Take Bard to 5th and then Rogue the rest of the way? Pick up three levels of Rogue and then finish Bard?
I am curious as to why you are going with Swashbuckler instead of a subclass that would lend itself more to that character concept. At least as I understand your concept based on your explanation. I mean, that subclass’ whole schtick is to leap boldly into combat and then fancyfoot out again without needing to use Cunning Action. (So they can use two weapons to help improve odds to land a sneak attack.)
I’m not arguing with you or telling you to change anything, far from it. If it makes you happy then get down with your bad self. I’m asking for clarification. I am genuinely curious because my brain is flashing “TILT” at me 😵💫. (I’m like, “but Tim, it was one plus two plus one plus one, which means there’s still one more bullet in Susan Sarandon’s gun!”) I figure either:
Like, I understand you’re building to a character concept and not to a optimize it mechanically. So I understand why you wouldn’t want to go Soulknife, that may be more optimized but it doesn’t fit the character. And I see why Scout doesn’t work either on account of it just not making sense.
But there’s “not optimized,” and then there’s “Not Optimized.” The first two features you’ll get from Swashbuckler appear to oppose or contradic both your character concept and planned combat strategy as I understand them. To me they don’t jive with a “naive coward just learning to fight” concept. (What with the whole Three Musketeers/Pirates of the Caribbean/Errol Flynn vibe and all.) Mechanically speaking, Fancy Footwork requires a melee attack, and Rakish Audacity requires you to be close enough to the enemy that it imposes disadvantage on your throwing. 🤔 Unless I’ve missed something and that’s supposed to be a sudden paradigm shift from naive cowardly to Incomparable as if bewitched,* and a shift tactically, from throwing to stabbing…? 🤷♂️ But if you only plan on a dip into Rogue, there are other subs that might work thematically and have features that (to me at least) seem like they would synergies more readily for what you’re planning:
So why Swashbuckler? Is it purely for RP? Am I missing something? Did I misunderstand something? At least this inquiring mind would like to know.
*👇
👆 Best. Movie. Ever. ☝️
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It's kind of like that's how he'll start out is not really knowing how to fight and just supporting other players like your typical bard. Once I get to bard3 it's kind of like he will discover his Niche and what he's good at and talk to the more veteran fighters in the group(literally a fighter and a barbarian) and learn what hurts something badly(dip to rogue and go to swashbuckler). When he reaches swashbuckling my idea is like that's when he's confident in his abilities, perhaps even overconfident at times.
Bard 3, then rogue 3, then back and forth until I reach bard 6 or 7(definitely ant to get to 6 for extra attack, but undecided on 7 yet bc that 4th level spell would be nice) then rogue the rest of the way.
Edit:I've also considered going Bard 1, then rogue 1 to go ahead and get sneak attack earlier and then follow a similar pattern.
I like the idea of swashbuckler as being charismatic rogue and I like the idea of a suave rogue rather than an edgier one. Highwayman-ish. You could say that the character I'm going for is somewhat inspired by V from V for Vendetta.
P.S.-sorry for any grammatical or spelling errors. I tend to rely on speech-to-text too often and it's not always as accurate as I would like it to be.
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
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I'm sorry I couldn't go into as much detail. I have two children and work a lot so my responses usually have to be somewhat brief and quick. After reading your last response more thoroughly I wanted to go into a little more detail.
Why not the Arcane trickster or other subclasses?
Arcane trickster is cool giving you the ability to stay Rogue and gives you acces to magic and mage hand utility, but it seems like it's really common. On top of that if I wanted to remain the face of the party since we don't have one(CHA for whatever reason is the common dump stat for the other members of my group) I have to be MAD with DEX,INT, and CHA. Since Swords Bard and Swashbuckler are both reliant on CHA and DEX, I can focus on just the two. I also realized that by just taking 6-7 levels in Bard I get just about as many spells as the level 20 Arcane Trickster.
As for the others, they sound very cool and should anything happen to Rohan(character) he has a brother that may take up one of these. The thing that gets me about the others is I just don't see a reason with this character. Even if I could reflavor them I feel like save for 1 or 2 abilities, it doesn't seem fitting from a roleplay aspect. The Swashbuckler just has synergistic stats and gave great character dynamic, to go from someone who would normally avoid a fight into someone who would boldly enter it.
Again, thank you. It’s interesting to learn about people’s priorities and decision making processes.
So, out of those, which do you think Rohan’s brother might be?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Good question indeed.
It's funny because I actually made Merrick first and didn't think about giving him a brother as I made him for a one-shot my wife wanted to run(she's going to be our druid in the upcoming campaign). Merrick was intended to be a bit more serious and analytical than Rohan. Being for a one-shot I didnt put too much into his personality, but I think there's no denying he'd probably fall under the Mastermind subclass. My reasons for that are how I played him in that one shot. To give you a brief summary of the one-shot, my wife was going to have us collect dragon blood so some priestess/shaman woman could make an antidote to rid the town of a plague that was sweeping through it. Let's note real quick this was a little railroad-y making us have to go through many little areas and talk to different people. So, naturally being the DM for any other time we played I had some metagamer knowledge and used it. Once "dragon" was brought up I immediately set out to persuade each NPC we were brought to if they could lend us all of the gold they could offer so we could try to set some sort of a trap for the dragon, luring it out with treasure.
Magic is too fun not to have though so if I were to bring Merrick back up, I think he may still be a bard/rogue multiclass. I would probably make him either a Lore or Eloquence bard and then Mastermind Rogue, which I know kind of makes him MAD, but maybe I could talk to DM about making his spellcasting ability INT.